[Ex-MA Hole]

BREAKING NEWS: Al Qaeda militants have beheaded American engineer Paul Johnson, Al Arabiya television is reporting

- Boston.com

[Ex-MA Hole]

Al Qaeda militants beheaded American hostage Paul Johnson, Al Arabiya television reported today. The network quoted its correspondent in Saudi Arabia who said he watched a video of the beheading. Al Qaeda had given the Saudi government a Friday deadline to free jailed militants or it would kill Johnson.

-cnn.com

[Ktulu]

M$%^#$ F$%*&#s!

[foghornl]

Time to put the Titanium Gloves on over the Steel Fists.

No other comment I have is anywhere near "The High Road"

[P95Carry]

Just had this thru via a CNN email-flash . I am sickened .... and beyond that, words required go WAY beyond what the High Road would expect.:(

[Felonious Monk]

Let's reply in language they understand.
An eye for an eye.

Anybody else had ENOUGH? :fire: :fire: :fire:

[Partisan Ranger]

Look for the money shots to show up on Al-Jazeera soon.

To be promptly ignored by the MSM here.

But don't worry, the Wash. Post will run another set of prison-abuse shots in a day or three. :rolleyes:

[BeLikeTrey]

3 words...

Black Jack Pershing

[LaVere]

:fire:

Time for a total pre-emptive strike.


:fire:


Gordon

[BigG]

Say it! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more! :fire:

[Smoke]

I felt sad this morning as I watched the family of Paul Johnson begging his captors to spare his life.

Muslim militants don't take pity on the West, they loathe and despise all things western. I had a feeling this would happen.

While I am sad for the family, I hope it irritates the rest of America to deal with these terrorists properly.

Smoke

[Indy7373]

:cuss:

*#&$# *#$(& @(#*$&
Almost anything I can say would not be fit for this forum. SO I will say this.

RIP Paul Johnson.

You WILL be avenged, one way or another.

We need Pershing back.

[WilderBill]

It's too bad we don't have Usama bin Laden in custody.
I'd love to see Dubya announce that unless they turn in all the terrorists worldwide by noon Friday he gets the ax.

Of course, they wouldn't do it, but a pay per veiw of the execution could at least pay off the national debt.

[Sportcat]

And people in this country get mad because some of our troops had prisoners playing naked twister.

Let's get our priorities straight! This was an innocent American working in a foreign country. He probably didn't give a d*mn about who was in office, or other politics; all that he cared about was his family and repairing helicopters.

RIP

[TheEgg]

Muslim militants don't take pity on the West, they loathe and despise all things western. I had a feeling this would happen.

Apparently Muslim militants don't take pity on anyone, including other Muslims, judging by the barbarity they display to anyone opposed to them, Muslim, Christian, or Jew.

They are scum and all civilized people of whatever race, religion, or culture, should condemn this behavior and help hunt them down!

[Blisshead]

Damn. Scumbags. RIP Paul Johnson

[George S.]

As much as I hate to have heard that, I think we probably knew that he would not survive his ordeal.

With all that the stuff that TV news shows, I am about to the point where every time I see pics of Iraqi terrorists shooting up the streets, cheering after a bomb goes off, and when we see the Arabic TV showing this ruthless act of murder, I just think that there needs to be air strikes called in after every event.

I really like to believe that this country and our moral principals are above having to strike back for every small incident that occurs but I have to think that if these terroists, Iraqi or any others, are treated in the same way every time they commit their cowardly acts, then eventually they will learn not to do those things anymore, or there just won't be any of them left to try.

IMHO, the time has come to fight fire with fire. There needs to be a clear message sent to terrorists that tells them AND the whole world that their deeds will not go unpunished. They can declare a religous war if they like but they need to be sent to Hell for doing these things.

As far as how terrorists are treated in prison, the best way to not have to worry about seeing pictures of how terrorist prisoners are treated is to take no prisoners.

[Sindawe]

Damn. This truely sucks. Fox is reporting the Mr. Johnston was consider converting to Islam. Al-Quadia looks to have made are real PR blunder here.

OK, lets release the Al-Quadia prisoners that Saudia Arabia is holding. Put 'em on a transport and take 'em up to 25,000 feet and toss 'em out. If God is truely on their side, he'll intervine and ensure that at least SOME of 'em have a safe, soft landing. IF that occurs, I'll give up EtOH, pork green chilie, convert to Islam, pray in the direction of Mecca, marry me a good Muslim woman and have lots of kids. and make the pilgrimage. I've always wanted to see the Mosques with my own eyes anyway.

[cordex]

Judging from the other responses, this is likely to get me flamed pretty badly but ...

What makes this particular death worse than other premeditated murders?

Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, it's brutal. Yeah, it's disgusting. To me, though, it's another murder. I don't feel this massive rage some of you do.

I didn't know Mr. Johnson, but I wish his family well and I hope his murderers are brought to justice for their crimes. Still ... is this event really worthy of the vitriol it's receiving?

[BeLikeTrey]

That seems to be verification that they are Al-quaida right? We should ask them to specify which ones they want released and then we know for sure. Time for us to bring out the chopping block. we could return the favor in spades. Whatever horrifies them is what we need to do. Bullets in pigs blood etc.

I also like the idea of the bombing of the rejoicers in the streets when they do the roadside bomb and dance.

I again put a disclaimer in my posts... This is only meant for the terrorists not islam in general.

[pax]

Still ... is this event really worthy of the vitriol it's receiving?
Yes.

It wasn't just another murder. It was also an attempt to frighten the rest of us into doing things their way.

People have two reactions to such events: Fear, or Anger.

Fear isn't an option.

pax

[hillbilly]

Cordex, Johnson's death is NOT just a murder.

Johnson's death was a premeditated act of war.......

See the difference?

It is not like some drug dealer whacked another drug dealer for personal reasons here.

This is an act of war............and it's an act of war aimed at every single Westerner who is not already a radical, fundamentalist Muslim.

If you are not a radical, Wahhabist, fundamentalist Muslim, this barbaric, animalistic act is what they also want to do to you.....to your parents......to your kids......to your wife.......to your neighbors.......to everyone you know who is not a radical, fundamentalist Muslim.

This is an act of war that's been declared against all people who are not radical, fundamentalist, jihadist Muslims.

Does that make it more clear for you?

hillbilly

[GunGeek]

And people in this country get mad because some of our troops had prisoners playing naked twister.

Let's get our priorities straight! This was an innocent American working in a foreign country. He probably didn't give a d*mn about who was in office, or other politics; all that he cared about was his family and repairing helicopters.

RIP

AMEN!!!

[Master Blaster]

The Saudis who have no compunction about tourturing prisoners and executing anyone who breaks the law in Saudi Arabia, should now respond in kind and publically behead every Al Qaueda member they have in custody, Just to make the point that you dont try this crap again or the consequences will truely be dire.

[HankB]

Yes, legions of peaceful Moslems will now take to the streets protesting this sickeningly brutal and barbaric beheading by persons who don't truly follow Islam, the Religion of Peace. After all, the murderous savages who do this are really un-Islamic, and the vast majority of peaceful Moslems throughout the Middle East are uniformly shocked, outraged, and disgusted by this.

Right?

:barf:

[eagle10]

Don't we still have a bunch of those 'daisy-cutter' bombs over there? Why don't we transport them by B-52 from one location to another and have them accidently fall out? Oh - SHxx I hit the drop button by mistake!! So Sorry!!:barf:

[cordex]

Hillbilly,
Johnson's death is NOT just a murder.

Johnson's death was a premeditated act of war.......

See the difference?
I do see a difference between murder and an act of war, but I don't see this so much as an act of war as a simple act of evil deserving of a response (and I have no problem if that response is carried out with military force). Paul Johnson was working at a job when he was kidnapped, held and then murdered. Murder of noncombatants doesn't strike me so much as an act of war as a war crime - the premeditated murder of a noncombatant
It is not like some drug dealer whacked another drug dealer for personal reasons here.
Right. It is, however, somewhat like a shopkeeper being murdered messily in an attempt to cow the other nearby businesses into paying protection money. A murder designed to influence the behaviors of others. As I said, dispicable, disgusting and wrong.

Pax,
It wasn't just another murder. It was also an attempt to frighten the rest of us into doing things their way.
Do you react the same way to any such murder used to force others to do things someone's way, Pax?

[citizen]

I too, am saddened and enraged.

Constantly, however, I think of us (THR, etc.) as the Sons of Liberty during the Revolution.....just as frequently I am reminded of Mel Gibson's role in "The Patriot". Expecially when his son was murdered before him.....
I wonder, and cannot find accurate stats; what was the percentage breakdown of rebels, tories, and sheeple during the Revolution???
My conclusion is that we haven't changed; only the few are willing to sacrifice.......the burden of responsibilty rests heavy.......:fire:

[pax]

Cordex,

Personally? Yeah, in general I'm more anger prone than fear prone. But personal reactions weren't quite my point.

The point was simply that a public event like this was designed to stir up either fear or anger. That's just basic human nature.

The extremists were betting on fear being the governing reaction -- but fear simply isn't a rational response to this. Fear leads to appeasement, and appeasement never works. Therefore, the fearful response simply isn't an option.

That leaves anger. Anger often leads people and nations into doing some pretty stupid things, but it sometimes leads to firm resolve and a committment to do whatever it takes to end the violence.

So yeah, a single incident like this can be worth the vitriol being expressed here, even though other terrible things happen every day, and never make the headlines. The beheading was designed to stir up a public reaction and there's no way to stop the public from reacting. The only thing to do is to choose which reaction we'll give 'em: fear, or anger.

pax

Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping. -- Julius Hare

[Shane333]

I'm just too frustrated and upset about this murder (and others like it). If I say more it won't be civil, so I'll stop now.

[hillbilly]

Cordex, like I said in an email to you, here's the short version.

Pax is right.

This guy was not murdered for the usual reasons people are murdered. He was not murdered over money or sex or drugs or property.

His gruesome death was planned, staged, executed, filmed, and broadcast as a propaganda piece.

It is an act of pscyhological warfare in a war that was declared on us in 1998 and that we didn't notice until 2001.

hillbilly

[Josey]

Sorry. I am not outraged. When a person goes into a non-christian, american-hating, non-western world for a profit, I can't hold much sympathy for them. Johnson was considerin turning his soul and life over to Islam. I saw his wife and family. I am sorry for their loss. That is all. Put yourself in harms way for money is being mercenary. I relate this back to the Pedacaris kidnapping of 1904. He was a Greek ciizen, not an American. No angst from me.

[tyme]

I can't say I'm surprised. They've killed others recently. There was no hope that their demands would be met. What other outcome was there? As soon as he was taken hostage, he was a deadman.

[hillbilly]

Josey, in this new World War, declared upon us in 1998, and with skirmishes and battles dating back beyond 1998, "putting yourself in harm's way" is as simple as "being an American."

Even in the US, if you are not a fundamentalist jihadist Muslim, you are in "harm's way."

You are "in harm's way" every time you leave your driveway in the morning.

Didn't you see the story about the Islamic Somali arrested in Columbus, Ohio, for plotting to blow up the local mall this past week?

Did you miss the coverage of the radical American Muslim who shot and killed numerous people around our own capital a year or so ago?

Did you miss the story about the radical Muslim who started shooting people at the terminal in Los Angeles International Airport?

Have you missed the news stories about the Al Qaeda cells broken up in Buffalo, NY, and Oregon, and Washington state, and other places inside the continental US?

Did you not see the story about Jose Padilla's plans to possibly detonate a "dirty bomb" in the US as well as his plans to rent apartments and then blow them up to kill as many occupants in them as possible?

Josey, I hate to break it to you, but you are, wherever you may be in the US, most defintely in "harm's way" and you are a target, merely because you exist.

hillbilly

[mercedesrules]

(pax) The extremists were betting on fear being the governing reaction -- but fear simply isn't a rational response to this.
...proving that they expect anger. This thread is exactly the response they want in order to draw the US into a long, debilitating, costly and miserable war.

MR

[grnzbra]

Get a copy of Terrorist Hunter. It covers the stuff that's going on all the sub-rosa stuff that's going on all the time.

[lbmii]

These Islamic followers are cut from the same cloth as the Japanese Shinto of World War Two. There was no reasoning with the Shinto. There is no reasoning with these Islamist. We must deal with these Islamist as we delt with the Shinto.

[UnknownSailor]

I hope that Mr. Johnson's death serves as a warning to all the other contractors working to make things better in the Big Sandbox. If you are attacked, for whatever reason, don't stop fighting until either you are killed our your attackers are. These radicals will give you no quarter, so act accordingly when they come to kidnap you.

I would hope this is now obvious, but some people need the proverbial bucket of cold water over the head to clue them in to reality.

For Mr. Johnson's family, I'm sorry for your loss. May his death not be in vain.....

[mercedesrules]

(UnknownSailor) I hope that Mr. Johnson's death serves as a warning to all the other contractors working to make things better in the Big Sandbox.

"Get the hell out of there; it's a dangerous place!"

MR

[UnknownSailor]

And to Eagle10: daisy-cutters are not carried by B-52s, they are rolled out the back of C-130s.

[mephisto]

Get the hell out of the big sandbox. This guy started his day like many other days before. Unfortunately it ended very poorly. But there is no reason to think that there should not be anger toward these beasts. I hate them. They will start to get even more brazen and daring in the near future. They will bring the war to our doorsteps. I mean how can you fight hate that does not have fear? When these cretins believe that they are fighting for their god and if they die while they are in this service they will receive 70 virgins in paradise. Why 70? That seems somewhat abstract. Oh theirs reason their virgin’s dudes, ugly. So here’s to them getting their dues. And these networks that relay their videos and statements need to be shut down. There has to be a way to do that. Or will the left say that we are infringing on their 1st amendment rights.

[Norton]

Truly sad.....

Make no mistake about it, if they could carry out the same crimes right here on our soil tomorrow...they would:fire:

[Josey]

All, there is a difference between serving as a protector of freedom and earning a high salary. A Marine dead in Beirut IS morally superior to a mercanary dead in Saudi Arabia. Thank you for being civil. Freedom.

[hillbilly]

Norton, they already have done those crimes on our soil.........Remember 9-11?

Remember the "D.C. Sniper?" Remember the LAX shooter?

They tried to blow up a mall in Columbus-freakin-Ohio just last week.

Their plots and organizations have been uncovered and broken up from sea to shining sea inside the US.

Where ever you are, get out a map, and mark off 50 miles.

Then draw a circle with a 50 mile radius around where ever you are, and I guarantee you, there are people inside the circle who fundamentally agree with Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. All they need is one opportunity.

THEY ARE ALREADY HERE!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the scream, but yeesh!

hillbilly

[Ohen Cepel]

They understand one thing. We MUST give them what they understand.

I would have had every bomber in our inventory in the air.

When he dies we rain death on them. May not save him. However, may safe the next.

As for the people out there that will say that they all aren't bad: The good ones must root out the bad! We will take forever to do that.

If a man in the south new all the clansmen who lynched a black man and did nothing he would be punished. They must come clean!

[GunGeek]

Put yourself in harms way for money is being mercenary.

Come on, he was an engineer, using your thinking...

Bank tellers are mercenaries

7-11 clerks are mercenaries

Security Gaurds are mercenaries

Cops are definetly mercenaries


I can see if he was working security, but the guy just fixed helecoptors...

[Norton]

Hillbilly,

You may have missed my posts regarding the DC sniper shootings, but I can tell you that I know all too well what happened with that series of shootings. The young man who was wounded at the middle school sat in my classroom this year and was then gone for 4 weeks during the trial.

I guess I was specifically referring to beheadings in my previous posts....my apologies for not being more clear;)

[Hawkmoon]

Hillbilly --

This murder was not an act of war. Wars are conducted between two sovreign nations. This killing was carried out by thugs representing no country, against a civilian.

It was not an act of war. It was an act or terrorism.

[Grey54956]

I wonder if I am the only one who thinks that just retribution for this heinous act would be to take all Al-Q combatants, operatives, sympathizers, financiers, etc. currently languishing worldwide in various prisons, pull them into the nearest public squares, and swing the axes until the blades get dull?

I know its horrible, but it all these people understand. To hell with hearts and minds... I would rather use the iron gauntlet.

[Carlos]

I agree. I am so pissed at these despicable Sandroaches, I could kill 100 right now.

RIP. :(

[Lennyjoe]

Just came over the news that the Saudi forces killed the Al-Qaida leader and a couple other thugs today that were responsible for Mr. Johnson's death.

Too bad they didnt find him until after they killed Mr. Johnson.

Rest in Peace Mr. Johnson and may the love of the Lord ease the suffering of the family.

[alan]

Did the ending really come as a surprise to anyone?

Also heard that Saudi authorities cornered and killed a couple of terrorist types, including the supposed leader, after the dumping of the body. One clown supposeldy captured alive. To bad others weren't also, for information might have been obtained.

Possibly, what we might consider doing is the following, with respect to such Jihadists as we capture. Paint them in pig's blood, and after blowing them away, bury them in pig waste. Given such a send-off, they might not make it past the guard at the heavenly gates, behing which supposedly wait how many virgins was it?

[rick_reno]

The pictures/etc. are here. (http://rfsafe.com/tributes/) It's time for President Bush to unleash the dogs of war on these people.

[MountainPeak]

The "peacefull religion" strikes again. Tomorrow, thousands of "moderate" muslims express outrage! Ya right!!! I can't even imagine the pain his family is going through right now.

[telewinz]

Sorry. I am not outraged. When a person goes into a non-christian, american-hating, non-western world for a profit, I can't hold much sympathy for them. Johnson was considerin turning his soul and life over to Islam. I saw his wife and family. I am sorry for their loss. That is all. Put yourself in harms way for money is being mercenary.

I have to agree, the price for risking his life was reached by mutural consent. How many others are on there way right now hoping it will be the "other guy" who gets nailed? Greed is what motivated Johnson, his gamble didn't pay off. I hope part of the "package deal" was a large life insurance policy.

[MountainPeak]

I feel I have to reply to several posts here. Paul Johnson did not behead himself!! He was killed by murderers, while trying to make a living for himself and family. The "blame the victim" attitude displayed by a couple of people here is sickening!

[telewinz]

He was killed by murders, while trying to make a living for himself and family. The "blame the victim" attitude displayed by a couple of people here is sickening!

Yes, no ones says he wasn't murdered but most Americans make a living for their families in America AND for a lot less money. Why do you think they are paying $40M truck drivers $100M to go to Iraq? And why do you think since the first beheading, many have come back home? Johnson was a greedy fool but look at the bright side...at least he has a nice estate to leave to his loving family. Doesn't sound like a good trade-off to me but then I was wise enough NOT to leave the security of a civilized country like the US for ANY AMOUNT of MONEY! :fire: Now if they start beheading American soldiers, thats a different matter and I'll be a warhawk in a flash!

Lets see if I understand correctly...If I accept $200 to put my hand into the jaws of a tiger and my hand is bitten off, the tiger bears full responsibility:what: and I bear no responsibility for my poor judgement because I am a VICTIM?

[Hkmp5sd]

His gruesome death was planned, staged, executed, filmed, and broadcast as a propaganda piece.
One wonders if they would continue this tactic if the news media refused to air the pictures/video and didn't spend 24/7 talking about the latest atrocity. If they could not induce fear and outrage into the public, would they go and try something else? This proves to them that they do not need elaborate schemes such as turning airliners into missiles to keep themselves in the spotlight and scare the public.

[MountainPeak]

telewinz, your response does not surprise me.

[Third_Rail]

Do we have any POWs? Can we forget about some certain UN rules for a bit while holding a video camera?

I'm not much for Israeli style tactics, but let's make a little point.... tiny... little... right there. Yep. A tiny point.


Not that I want to let GW and Rummy do what they REALLY want to do or anything.

They have to hold back because of "the poor terrorists."

Anyone else read the Mallard comic? Yeah, that.

[telewinz]

AH! so you agree
telewinz, your response does not surprise me.

[VaniB.]

Yea RIGHT...... "The Saudis killed them." MY ASS!

You believe the Saudis found these guys an hour after the murder, and killed them? There's no film or documetation of this. We'll just take their word for it? DON'T BE FOOLED!

Contact your Congressman and demand action from our president instead of politically correct talk from him. WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS BULLCRAP! What the heck are we paying all these taxes for in maintaining the best military, and weapons in the world?

[R.H. Lee]

Contact your Congressman and demand action from our president instead of politically correct talk from him. WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS BULLCRAP! What the heck are we paying all these taxes for in maintaining the best military, and weapons in the world?

AMEN.

[71Commander]

Yea RIGHT...... "The Saudis killed them." MY ASS!

You believe the Saudis found these guys an hour after the murder, and killed them? There's no film or documetation of this. We'll just take their word for it? DON'T BE FOOLED!

Contact your Congressman and demand action from our president instead of politically correct talk from him. WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS BULLCRAP! What the heck are we paying all these taxes for in maintaining the best military, and weapons in the world?

Yeah right! Then we would have CNN plastering it all over the world and that Kerry Kritter denoucing the brutality of the Bush administration.

Sounds like a covert op is needed to me.

[Sodbuster]

Johnson, 49, worked on targeting and night-vision systems for Apache helicopters, and the group had cited his job as one of the reasons he was kidnapped (from internet news site)

Sounds like a mercenary to me. Can I infer that military avionics technicians are classified as mercenaries also? Can I also infer we are blessed on this forum to have experts in the field of motivational psychology?

[Obiwan]

This man could have been anyone...he was killed for being an American

He was NOT a combatant..he could have easily have been a tourist or a missionary.

What is that line form one of the Clancy novels....

My only fear is that someone will stop us BEFORE we kill them all

They deserve less...and we are worried about naked pictures of prisoners...

:rolleyes:

[Felonious Monk]

Mephisto -- (This guy started his day like many other days before. Unfortunately it ended very poorly. But there is no reason to think that there should not be anger toward these beasts. I hate them. They will start to get even more brazen and daring in the near future. They will bring the war to our doorsteps. I mean how can you fight hate that does not have fear? )

By overwhelming force, like the Russians did against those Chechyen terrorists who kidnapped all those innocent civilians at that theater a decade ago. "Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out!"
Haven't heard too many reports of dissident groups trying THAT again...hmmm....


Ohen Cepel -- (They understand one thing. We MUST give them what they understand.
I would have had every bomber in our inventory in the air.
When (one) dies, we rain death on them. May not save him. However, may save the next.
As for the people out there that will say that they all aren't bad: The good ones must root out the bad!)

Amen, bro! Furthermore, those "peaceful" Muslims who stand silent and do not work to stop it/bring the perps to justice are complicit in these acts.

Grey54956 -- (I wonder if I am the only one who thinks that just retribution for this heinous act would be to take all Al-Q combatants, operatives, sympathizers, financiers, etc. currently languishing worldwide in various prisons, pull them into the nearest public squares, and swing the axes until the blades get dull?

I know its horrible, but it all these people understand. To hell with hearts and minds... I would rather use the iron gauntlet.)

...I'll be happy to run the grinding wheel when they get dull.
Say it, America: NO MORE!

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Mercenary??? You guys are crazy....he was an engineer that went where his company sent him. I bet you that 99.9% of you would go where your company sent you if that is your job. You guys need a dictionary.....

[CGofMP]

Legitimate target or not?

I am appauled when I see the pics of the recent beheading on drudgereport.com or the video of Nick berg's death on ogrish.com and I am very pleased that the trial at the vehicle stop in saudi arabia lasted all of 90 seconds, but let us not miss reality because of our visceral and emotional response.

It comes down to this: WHAT exactly is an acceptable target?

Let's take a page from Red Dawn
What would you do if say Cuba, under Soviet control took over your town? Who would you feel okay sniping? Just guys in uniform? Not the support people? Not ANY cuban or soviet citizen in your country?

Put another way, though I had some problems with the book 'Unintended Consequences', I know that many of you applauded when the protagonists in that book that took action against non combatants, those in government, and the collateral damages that occured. Wasn't it part of that book that said that anyone over a GS12 (?) was a legitimate target? Most GS12's get issued noting more dangerous than an spreadsheet and an accounting program.

If it is okay to deal harshly with those taking away our way of life, or those who SUPPORT the guys dressed in kevlar doing the same, then why is it NOT morally acceptable to do the same thing if the USA is attempting to take away your lifestyle in your own backwards countty?

My opinion is that the saudi SOB's are savages... in a true sense of the word... (remember also that it was mostly saudis aboard those jets on 911) - but if put in their position many of us would be just as savage - That or all of those testosterone filled posts about what ya'all are gonna do when they repeal the second ammendment are just so much hot air.

I am NOT condoning the actions of the savages, but lets remember that from their perspective we are attempting to take from them something that is more near and dear to their hears than our firearms and right to liberty and self protection are to us.

Charles

PS: In case there is any question, I am NOT advocating the position that these adam henries are in the right in any way, nor do I lack compassion for the man and his family. I TRULY am a patriot and I believe in liberty but for god's sake, if you are willing to fight for your way of life, how can you deny that option to other savages?

[Hawkmoon]

As befitting my position as self-appointed pedant to the universe, I'll adjuicate the dispute to say that Mr. Johnston was "mercenary" (in that he was motivated by money to take a dangerous job), but that he was not "a" mercenary (as in an individual who fights for money).

I hope this (and the Berg) incident does not cause us to lose sight of our credo as adherents of law. I don't feel this should be an excuse to treat prisoners in any way not consistent with international law.

On the other hand, our government and our military need to understand that the law these people understand is "an eye for an eye" in the most literal sense. To them, humane treatment of prisoners is not a sign of respect for law, it is a sign of weakness.

Perhaps it is time to put a hold on the taking of prisoners.

[Matt1911]

A few questions.
Just how long have westerners been told the area is not safe?
Was there any offical order to get out?
How long was he there,and how many times has he/others been told it is not safe?
just wondering.

[CGofMP]

In answer to your querry:

http://travel.state.gov/saudi_warning.html

This information is current as of today, Fri Jun 18 21:01:34 2004.
Saudi Arabia
June 17, 2004
This Travel Warning is being updated to include recent targeted attacks against American citizens, resulting in deaths, injuries and a kidnapping, and to remind American citizens of the continuing serious threat to their safety while in Saudi Arabia. This Travel Warning supersedes that of April 15, 2004.

The Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens to defer travel to Saudi Arabia. Private American citizens currently in Saudi Arabia are strongly urged to depart. On April 14, 2004, due to security concerns, the Department of State ordered the departure of family members and non-emergency employees of the U.S. Embassy and Consulates in Saudi Arabia.

U.S. citizens are reminded of the potential for further terrorist actions against U.S. citizens abroad, including in the Persian Gulf region. U.S. citizens who travel to, or remain in, Saudi Arabia despite this Travel Warning should register at the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh or at the Consulates in Jeddah and Dhahran, and enroll in the warden system (emergency alert network) to obtain updated information on travel and security in Saudi Arabia. Warden messages can be found on the U.S. Embassy Riyadh website: http://usembassy.state.gov/riyadh/.

The U.S. Government continues to receive credible information indicating that extremists are planning further attacks against U.S. and Western interests. Terrorists have taken at least one American citizen hostage and have recently killed others in shooting attacks. Terrorists also attacked residential housing compounds using vehicle bombs in 2003 and 2004, resulting in numerous deaths and injuries, including to American citizens. Credible information indicates that terrorists continue to target residential compounds in Saudi Arabia, particularly in the Riyadh area, but also compounds throughout the country. Recent incidents indicate that American citizens residing in private residences are also being specifically targeted.

From time to time, the U.S. Embassy and Consulates in Saudi Arabia may restrict the travel of official Americans or suspend public services for security reasons. In those instances, the Embassy and Consulates will keep the local American citizen community apprised through the Warden System and make every effort to provide emergency services to U.S. citizens. The U.S. Mission in Saudi Arabia continues to prohibit its American employees and their dependents from traveling to residential compounds in the Riyadh area from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.

As the Department continues to develop information on any potential security threats to U.S. citizens overseas, it shares credible threat information through its Consular Information Program documents, available on the Internet at http://travel.state.gov. U.S. travelers can also get up-to-date information on security conditions by calling 1-888-407-4747 in the U.S. or Canada or on a regular toll line at 1-317-472-2328.

U.S. citizens should also consult the Department of State's Consular Information Sheet for Saudi Arabia, the Worldwide Caution Public Announcement, and Middle East and North Africa Public Announcement at http://travel.state.gov.

Return to Consular Information Sheets and Travel Warnings Page

[CannibalCrowley]

Felonious Monk By overwhelming force, like the Russians did against those Chechyen terrorists who kidnapped all those innocent civilians at that theater a decade ago. "Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out!" In addition to executing the terrorists, they also killed about 130 (IIRC) of the hostages.Amen, bro! Furthermore, those "peaceful" Muslims who stand silent and do not work to stop it/bring the perps to justice are complicit in these acts. Does the same go for non-muslims who haven't done anything to bring these people to justice. Just because a neighbor is muslim doesn't mean that he has any more responibility for the attacks than you do.
VaniB. You believe the Saudis found these guys an hour after the murder, and killed them? There's no film or documetation of this. We'll just take their word for it? DON'T BE FOOLED! Sorry I'm all out of tinfoil.

If we extend our military into further countries we'll be slitting our own throat. This goes double for Saudi Arabia because of their natural resources and political influence. Our country would grind to a halt if OPEC decided to no longer supply us with oil (or do so at an inflated price). Our being on OPEC's bad side could also influence our current allies to turn their backs on us (if further invasions weren't reason enough for them).

For those who advocate the U.S. murdering captives in retaliation, the international community would shun us if we did so. Besides, when America executes foreign prisoners without a valid reason, it's own citizens will surely be next (if the country isn't crushed by foreign nations).

[45 ACP]

CannibalCrowley

In addition to executing the terrorists, they also killed about 130 (IIRC) of the hostages.

The raid on the theatre didn't kill the hostages, poor post-incident medical attention to those who were unconscious is what killed them.

mercedesrules

...proving that they expect anger. This thread is exactly the response they want in order to draw the US into a long, debilitating, costly and miserable war.

Many parts of this war do not need to be long, debilitating (to us anyways...) or all that costly. All it takes is a great amount of intestinal fortitude on the part of those who make the decisions.

Those who defile your house should be paid back five-fold.

[P95Carry]

paid back five-fold. Make that 10 will ya!!!!!

[Lagadelphia]

How can you call this guy a mercenary? He worked in SA for 10 years. That kinda predates the post war contracts you know.

[joe sixpack]

The way I see it the terrorists are not just whacking some guy, they are
videotaping it and making sure that it gets out to upset as many people
as it possibly can. Sure, they know that fear is being created, especially
for those foreigners who work in the Arab countries, and their families.
But they also know that ultimately that fear turns into anger and rage,
and for a lot of people they probably skip the fear part and go directly
into anger.

So how are they going to benefit by enraging the U.S. would be my question. They have certainly upset a lot of people recently.
Mercedesrules has an answer. Not sure it's the answer.
Any other ideas? Possibilities?

cheers, ab

[ravinraven]

...the most. Do I loath the filthy pig dung who commit these cowardly acts or their low life cheer leaders in the Liberal press or the even lower life pieces of dog vomit who call such people as Johnson mercenaries? The only thing I understand for sure about all of these types of people is that they are wastes of oxygen.

The absolute anti-American press fools who compare a bit of humility exercised at that Abu-pig-dung prison with murder should be listed on a web site so that all real Americans are aware of who they are.

ravinraven

[CannibalCrowley]

ravinraven The absolute anti-American press fools who compare a bit of humility exercised at that Abu-pig-dung prison with murder should be listed on a web site so that all real Americans are aware of who they are. Would you consider David Passaro to be one of those "real Americans". In case you're unaware he's the contractor who was recently indicted for beating a detainee to death in Afghanistan. (http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0604/061804d1.htm) This incident happened a year ago so you can bet that more will be revealed as time goes on. As for calling what happened in Abu Ghraib "a bit of humility" I'm sure that you'd answer different if it was your son or daughter, unless you view rape and the other crimes as lessons in humility.

What the terrorists did was wrong and nothing changes that, but the same also applies to the crimes that were committed by coalition troops.

[Art Eatman]

CannibalCrowley, that's the "so's your old man" false argument. Ties in with the rhetorical, "Do two wrongs make a right?" bit. And you, yourself, pointed out that Passaro was indicted.

Overall, it seems to me that a person's status--contract agent or GI--is irrelevant. It's one thing to cope with issues of shootings and bombings by the militants. It's a whole 'nother ballgame for a deliberately planned and videotaped execution. This is not resistance in the name of a cause; it's a wilful effort to create terror among those who are not hostile to that cause.

I have a serious problem with the mindset of anybody who says that my very presence in a country is somehow a religious violation of the sanctity of the land upon which I stand--and that I should die just for being there. I thus can give no credence to any of others' arguments about "past treatment" or "western imperialism" or any of the other cutesy but meaningless natterings. They are inapplicable and irrelevant.

Art

[joe sixpack]

Here, here.

cheers, ab

[Don Gwinn]

The main thing to remember if you insist on comparing the Passaro case to Hussein's loyalists is that rather than giving the guy a medal and a mistress, we're going to give him a fair trial and, if we find he did what it is alleged he did, put him in prison for a long time.

Very few people in the international community will give us any credit for that or even deign to mention it, but it's still true and we'll still do it.

[schromf]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry. I am not outraged. When a person goes into a non-christian, american-hating, non-western world for a profit, I can't hold much sympathy for them. Johnson was considerin turning his soul and life over to Islam. I saw his wife and family. I am sorry for their loss. That is all. Put yourself in harms way for money is being mercenary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First I spent 10 years in Saudi your facts are way skewed. Saudi's for the most part like Americans, they are people just like you and I, good ones, bad ones, and all the flavors in between. I have no sympathy for any Christian though that is working on being a convert, I have known many never meet one that was worth a S@%T. One of the three original capitol crimes in Saudi Arabia is leaving the faith, translated they can convert Christians, Jews, Hindu's, but if one of their faithful converts the opposite direction its chop his head. We should also stop allowing the Saudis to fund and build mosques in the US, either they open up and let churches and temples be built inside the Magic Kingdom, or stop all of this soft money explotation of our system.

That aside many of the expates have been over in the Magic Kingdom since before the first gulf war, many still hold US security clearances, under US government contracts. The US does this for several reasons, 1 it is cheaper than basing US troops in these jobs, and two there is nowhere near the political fallout.

I have still many friends in there currently, I had friends on the compound where all the killings happened a few weeks ago. I hope they were gone. Yes now it is a good time to get out and stay out. Our State department is being wishy washy on this, issuing warnings. Translated that means we know it is a crappy situation but we are not going to risk the political implications, and the US interest both militarily and ecomomically to place Saudi on a the forbidden to travel list like Cuba, Beriut and Libya were. This could be done tommorrow, but it won't way too many dollars involved.

As much as I am outraged, bombing the middle east to a sea of glass IS NOT the answer. All that will accomplish is innocents being killed and loss of friends and allies. There has existed for over twenty years the ability to use assets in Saudi for intelliegence gathering, zip has been done. By now we should know every officer and enlisted member of their armed forces, most of the senior police, and the inner circle of the National Guard. I watched for years as the US Navy rotated the commanders in and out on a 1 year rotation, in 1 year in the kingdom they didn't know the language, were learning the cultural basics, not detailed analysis of the political situation.

These are a tribal people, note the two the Saudi's killed yesterday were cousins. The support structure for these terrorists is extended families and allies inside their cult sects of religion. Those that harbor, aid or finance these terrosits are just as guilty as the guy with the gun or the knife. Getting good intelliegence and hunting these thugs down and putting them in a shallow grave is the only way to combat it. This is not PC, its is dirty and wives, mothers and sisters are part of this network. We are not going to do this, why? where do we draw the line, and are we going to lower our ideals and standards to this base level.

Yes we need to respond, but I would much rather see a short list of 30-40 hunted down and killed, than 2-3 bombed and 150 uninvolved casualities. Someone mentioned the dancing in the streets by Iraqis over the bombing incident, my question where are the marine and army snipers? Selective, getting the targets we want.

I am also PO'd how the whole Iraq war issue, I was supportive of taking out Sadam, I spent my time in the sandbox and two wars against him. What I don't like is when we invaded Iraq is where was a commander like Patton or Chesty Puller? We should have hit Iraq and counted casualities by the mile, and the hour. Why are we spending wheelbarrels of money rebuilding that rat hole now? We should immediatly stop all reconstruction efforts on our tax dollars. Pull out every contractor that isn't mission critical to our military. Then work on stablising the mess over there, when and if it gets stablised then we can negote with the Iraqis on reconstruction efforts, that is if our congress approves at that time, if not tough S@@T you had your chance.

[CrudeGT]

This is what I want to see on the next presidential speech.

It will start by an annoucer stating that Mr. President would like to make give a message to terrorists and murderers in the middle east. Because of recent events of kidnappings and beheadings.

Bush jr. walks to the podium, opens an old file. Looks at the camera and says. "On December 7th, 1941, Japanese vice-admiral Isoroku Yamamoto -- said 'I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.'

We need to send them a message to let them know that we will not tolerate these acts and we will retaliate. Screw the rules of war. They don't follow them, we should we. I know we were taught to not "stoop to the other guys level". But in this case, I think it's needed.

[pinblaster]

:fire: This ain't no game of checkers. We are fighting for the security of a free world. These Muslim extrerme fundamentalists must not and will not win. You cannot win a fight if your opponent is allowed to kick you in the b@lls while you have to fight by the Queensbury rules.

[ravinraven]

"but the same also applies to the crimes that were committed by coalition troops."

BULL SQUEEZE.

rr


__________________

[VaniB.]

I wish Americans (including some of you in this thread) would side with their country for a change, standing steadfast in support and defense with it's leaders against our enemies. Enemies I might add, who of a barbaric nature worship death, and in the name of their god WOULD CUT YOUR HEAD OFF IN A NEW YORK MINUTE.

IMHO, to try to explain reason or justification for why our nation was attacked, and it's citizens are being beheaded, smacks of pure yellow bellied liberalism, if not down right Anti-American sentiment.

Divided, this house will not stand.

[TEX]

I don't know why the US has not thought of doing this...

If I were in charge, I would secretly agree to release them, but before I did, I would jam a non-removable homing device up their innards that was set to start sending a signal about 12 hours later. I would then start bombing the absolute crap out of any place they showed up, starting with groups of 5 or more. A truly hi-tech device could be set to remain dormant until they received a certain signal themselves (sent by us) and would not operate at all if in an environment colder than 96 degrees, so that if they were somehow removed as used as a decoy, etc. they would not work. At the very least we could track the sorry pieces of sh*t.

We need to stop screwing around here. Will be making progress when everytime a terrorist hears the sound of US chopper blades thumping the air, they piss on themselves and start babbling.

The really sad thing is that it will take one or two more really bad attacks here in the US before we will take off the other glove.

Oh well, my two cents anyway - TEX

[ravinraven]

...that kidnappings and individual murders are not being done by these pieces of pig vomit right here in the good ol' USA. Law abiding people in Washington DC are not armed by law. Law abiding people in SA are not armed by law.

These thugs can walk in to an apartment building in DC and walk out with dozens of people.

It will happen, methinks.

rr

[Matt1911]

What happened to Johnson's body? Did we not hear first that it was a lincense plate report someone called in while witnessing the dumping of his body? Now it is missing?Have the been any eyewitness's to the killing of the scum that abducted Johnson?

[schromf]

I think this is a case of bad reporting from the media. Read some more and it seems they stoped these clowns at a road block. Pretty standard stuff in the Magic Kingdom, road blocks and police checks.

Also use caution when getting news from there, it is all censored, and twisted, in the 10 years I worked there and read the papers about once a year there would be something factual in their news rags.

The best news is from the US or Brit reporters usually and piped out through satelite. But there are big restrictions on that, don't trust any of the news on face value.

[telewinz]

IMHO, to try to explain reason or justification for why our nation was attacked, and it's citizens are being beheaded, smacks of pure yellow bellied liberalism, if not down right Anti-American sentiment.

I'm am very much PRO-AMERICAN but its not because I believe that our government is a perfect "christian" do-gooder. Over the past hundred years our government has done a great many things that have caused a great deal of the World to hate us with just cause . In the history of man, I can't think of any empire that was loved or liked. Being and staying on the top of the heap ain't easy you have to play "dirty" and do it well. The right of conquest is as good a reason as any for the U.S. to be top dog, lord knows we are a kinder, gentler "ruler" than most have been. Reading the real history of the United States isn't for the faint-hearted or the weak minded. This is why its not taught in grade school.

[71Commander]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_kidnappers__plot_2


MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt - The al-Qaida cell that kidnapped and killed American Paul M. Johnson Jr. said in an online periodical Sunday that sympathizers in the kingdom's security forces supplied it with police uniforms and vehicles and set up fake checkpoints to facilitate last week's abduction.

The details of the kidnapping appeared in Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of Holy War, a semimonthly online periodical published by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. A separate article, the final one written by cell leader Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, killed in a shootout Friday night, justified Johnson's slaying.

The first article said militants wearing police uniforms and using police cars set up a fake checkpoint on al-Khadma Road, leading the airport, near Imam Mohammed bin Saud University.

When Johnson's car approached the checkpoint June 12, the militants in police uniforms stopped his car — a Camry — detained him, anesthetized him and carried him to another car, the article said.

It said they then blew up Johnson's car.

"This car is the one the Saudi media claimed was laden with explosives and that (the security) seized and defused it," the article said.

Security officials said last week that Johnson's car was found near Imam University. Saudi press reports said the car was booby-trapped and later caught fire.

"A number of the cooperators who are sincere to their religion in the security apparatus donated those clothes and the police cars. We ask God to reward them and that they use their energy to serve Islam and the mujahedeen," the article read.

It said the militants decided to behead Johnson when Adel al-Jubeir, foreign affairs adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah in Washington, declared that Saudi Arabia would not negotiate with the kidnappers, who had demanded the release of jailed al-Qaida militants by Friday in exchange for Johnson's life.

"The stupid Saudi government took the initiative and announced by the Americanized tongue Adel Al-Jubeir that it will not submit to the conditions of the mujahedeen, claiming that it doesn't negotiate with terrorists," the statement read.

The group said it beheaded Johnson when its deadline expired Friday.

Al-Moqrin's final article, written after Johnson's kidnapping, described the American as "an infidel, a warrior of the military. ... He works for military aviation and he belongs to the American army which kills, torture and harm Muslims everywhere, which supports enemies (of Islam) in Palestine, Philippines, Kashmir (news - web sites)."

Johnson, 49, had worked on Apache helicopters for Lockheed Martin.

He replied to critics urging the release Johnson, saying: "Do those people want to see this infidel carry on the killing of the children and the raping of the women in Baghdad and Kabul in order to bless his killing?"

He said it is no excuse that Johnson was not a member of the U.S. military.

"According to this twisted logic, U.S. President George W. Bush (news - web sites), Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) and others are innocent and peaceful because they are like the hostage, all of them do not wear the military uniform and ... stay away from the battlefield," al-Moqrin wrote.

"We can't preserve the dignity of Muslims but through these means," he wrote.

[CrudeGT]

I think we should do as they say....

Let every american know exactly when and where the al-quaida members will be released. Give us all enough notice to take the day off. Then, what if something bad were to happen, like.. oh... I don't know. Some pro-Americans learned from the games Al-guaida plays and, say, kidnaps the terrorists. Then we... i mean, the local pro-American 'terrorist' group can make videos of the deaths of the terrorists. Americans were known for lynching. I'm sure some Americans can stil come up with some tar and feathers, or a long rope and a tall tree...

That way, the terrorists get their demands, they let the prisoners go, and Americans get a piece of true justice.