[BamBam-31]

A buddy of mine called me up and asked for a recommendation. He said his cousin lives near DC and is frightened by all the terrorist threats, so he wants to purchase a gun for home defense. (Sounds like another anti-miraculously-turned-pro, eh?)

Anyhoo, here are his parameters: Cost isn't too much of an issue. No $5000 custom 1911's, but $600-700 is within reason. He's not going to practice with it (I know, I know, :banghead: ), just store it at home "just in case." He lives in a townhome, so he's concerned about over-penetration.

My suggestion? Ruger GP100. Just over $400, man-stopping .357 or econo-plink .38, no external safety to practice with, super-reliable, no-brainer maintenance. As for over-penetration, AFAIK, there's not much you can do with handgun rounds. I suggested birdshot from a boomstick, but his cousin was set on a handgun. I told him that if his cousin ever had to pull out his piece, over-penetration is way down on the list.

I also think his cousin was leaning more towards a semi. I said definitely a 9mm if he's not going to practice with it. He'd also need to learn a bit more about maintenance with a semi. I pointed them towards the Glock 17 and Sig 226. There are other great 9mm's out there (CZ, Hi-Power. P-99, etc.), but I've personally had great experiences with the Glock and Sig, so I suggested those.

Is this about right? I'm used to talking to other gunnies about which gun's better than which, what fits my hand best, etc., but this newbie approach is actually making me think. Hope I didn't steer his cousin in the wrong direction.

[ajacobs]

To new shooters I always recomend a 22 revolver unless they want something they can use for self defence right away and then that is a .38 or .357 sized large unless they plan to carry. I think you had a great train of thought steering him towards the gp and cautioning about the extra skill/knowledge needed with a semi.

[Nanook]

Bam-Bam, that's the same advice I give: a shotgun, followed by a .357 revolver if they insist on a handgun. The shotgun would be better, as you're aware, but the revolver has the smallest learning curve compared to a semi-auto. (no safety, no grip-safeties, no magazines, no slide to rack back and forth)
You can find Rugers for well under $300 used if you shop around. One further idea, get one in stainless because you KNOW it's just going to sit in a drawer somewhere and never get looked at.

[Zak Smith]

Hello,

Yeah, I think you've got it about right. A revolver is probably a good idea for someone who's going to have it "just in case". It's not as complicated as a semi-auto. However...

With regard to the semi-auto choices, I would go with something that has simple controls and will work flawlessly out of the box. A good indication of the last point is if the pistol is issued to domestic LEOs: Glocks, Sigs, etc.

I will put in a vote against a CZ for this guy. 50% of the ones I have bought new did not operate properly from the box.


-z

[charleym3]

Maybe I just live right these days. I've picked up S&W 4 screw M&Ps locally for <$200 in great shape. .38 is an excellent round. I can load ultra minimum rounds for training or +P to penetrate DEEP!

[Boats]

I second the idea of a S&W Model 10 M&P. Go to the revolver forum and print off the "how to" float and go get one for that ultimate in "load and put it on the highest closet shelf" firearm.

[Marko Kloos]

A 4" .357 is just about perfect as an "only gun", even and especially for the novice gun owner. It'll do every handgun job in a competent fashion, from carry to plinking to home defense. Load it with .38 Special +P for defense, use .38 wadcutters for plinking, and save the Magnums for slaying Bambi or fending off rabid mutant biker zombies.

[hondo68]

Since he's looking for advice, tell him to forget it if he isn't going to learn how the tool operates, and safety. If the fool is determined to never fire it unless he has to, and to get a semi, then a SA would probably be best. If he doesn't know that the first pull will be hard and subsequent ones easy, he's in big trouble. A Browning Hi-Power would be good, and Speer Gold Dot hollow points.

[DeltaElite]

A can of Pepper Spray.
Unless he is willing to get professional training in firearms and their use, he should just get a can of Pepper Spray and a Rabbits Foot. :D

[10-Ring]

I would recommend a 4" 357mag revolver. They're easy to learn how to use & maintain and they can sit loaded indefinitely w/o anything to be concerned about. I would also HIGHLY recommend a basic course so that if he ever does have to use it, he can be somewhat confident in his efforts.
Lastly, I recommend the revolver because it is much easier to go practice w/ a handgun than it is a shotgun or long gun. Indoor & outdoor ranges are available to him.
Good luck!

[Kahr carrier]

Gp-100 good choice to recomend.:)

[Waitone]

Possession of firearms implies a degree of responsibility and willingness to accept consequences of actions. It is the height of irresponsibility to just buy a gun and not learn safe handling or learn how to use it.

No recommendation from me without a firm committment to learn safe handling practice. I wouldn't want my friends death, injury, or participation in someone else's death or injury on my conscience.

But that's just me.

[.45Ruger]

If he insists on a handgun the Ruger in revolver is probably best, but you can't beat a Ruger Semi-Auto, My P95 is reliable and cheap.

[Standing Wolf]

If he's unwilling to take shooting seriously and put in range time, he should get a telephone with an automatic 911 dialer.

[Blackhawk]

BamBam-31, yeah, you done good! I'd also suggest some Fox Labs pepper spray. :D

[Gerald McDonald]

A seven iron and a loud whistle would probably be better than a handgun with out learning to operate it. If they insist on a handgun your advice is what I would also give.
Gerald

[1badmagnum]

I would suggest sending him to a local shooting range for a few lessons.let him shoot a few different types and calibers of pistols,get a feel of what each one feels like in his hands,how each pistol shoots,and let him chose the firearm with your reccommendations in mind.
each shooter feels more comfortable with a pistol which feels good in his hand,and that he can shoot well.

[dairycreek]

If home defense and self protection are the main goals here and, if as you say, the guy isn't going to learn the firearm or practice with it, then I would recommend a shot gun. Doesn't take a lot of practice or skill to provide a lot of defense and protection. Good shooting;)

[chaim]

If he doesn't think he'll practice that is one thing, if he isn't willing to learn initially that is something else.

If he isn't willing to practice in the beginning to learn I second what others have said. Insist that he go w/ a knife, pepper spray, a baseball bat, a good heavy gulf club, etc.

If he is willing to learn but then plans to simply load it and put it away then I'd be willing to help out (I actually have a friend who has been thinking about this track).

My first thought would be to continue suggesting that if they don't plan to consistantly keep up with range practice that they get a long gun. A shotgun as you already suggested is a great HD gun anyway and it is very powerful. Any long gun is more forgiving- it is much easier to aim w/ a 16-20" barrel than w/ a 3-6" barrel under stress even with regular practice and training. In addition to the shotgun I'd also suggest a pistol caliber carbine. You get the advantage of more practice than the shotgun or a rifle (there are far more indoor pistol ranges out there than outdoor rifle ranges, esp. in a suburban/urban area like here in the DC area). A Hi Point 9mm carbine, a Ruger PC 9, a .357mag or .44mag lever rifle, the Ruger Deerfield Carbine (.44mag) are all great options. Also, a .223/5.56 rifle would be a good option. They are intimidating (so maybe if lucky your friend would scare the BG into complying), the caliber doesn't have the overpenatration issues of other rifle calibers and is even better than some handgun rounds, it is cheap to shoot and practice with, etc. Another bonus of the rifle or carbine in a pistol caliber or .223/5.56 is that they won't "kick" much and they are fairly easy to shoot so they should be less intimidating for a newbie who isn't so sure to begin with.

If they are dead set on a handgun then your idea of a revolver is best. In fact, if they are asking for your help as a knowlegable gun guy I'd insist that they at least listen to that. If they insist that they want an auto then it is obvious that they don't put any value on your advice anyway.

[capt_happypants]

Sorry, but a pump-action shotgun would be my last recommendation to someone who doesn't plan to practice.

I shoot my Mossberg Persuader in various forms of 3-Gun/IDPA-style matches, and I'm always discovering new ways to cause malfunctions. I've learned that if I ride the slide release button while shooting, I will absolutely lock up the action. That's bad in a match, but positively lethal in a gunfight. I can short-stroke the action, fumble tactical reloads, and fail to disengage the safety.

If he tries to use it in a combat situation, he's going to be worm food.

Ruger GP-100, S&W Model 66 or 686, Taurus Model 66 loaded with 38 Spl 158grain JHPs would be my first choice. Minimum barrel length of 4".

[capt_happypants]

Chaim, I'm a big fan of the AR-15 weapons system for indoor work, but recommending it to the new shooter is just foolish.

Let's assume that he has an intruder, and he points the rifle at the attacker, and nothing happens. If he doesn't practice, how will he know what to do?

Has he failed to disengage the safety?
Is there a round chambered?
Is the magazine seated correctly?
Is the rifle cocked?
Does he have a jam? If so, can he clear it?

The time to learn AR-15 failure drills is not during a life-and-death situation.

[CZF]

Should he insist on a semi-auto. He probably wants a 9mm with an honest-to god 15-shot magazine.
something very safe and relaible.

Then he should look at a CZ75 BD Police. Issued to the
police in Brazil. Decocker and very smooth operating gun.
Comes with the hi-cap and a Clinton mag.

The Ruger DC is another option. Just not as nice as a CZ for
some people. Plus, you get the Bill Ruger inspired 10 shot
mags!

Better (in my mind) than the Ruger..
Taurus makes a good 9mm. Something that would serve him well.
Has a decocker, so it is very safe. So does a PCR, that is also
quite light for a police issue combat 9mm.

[BamBam-31]

Hey, great replies, fellas! Lots--I mean LOTS--of good advice. I emailed my buddy this thread, and I'm sure he'll show it to his cousin. (You guys readin' this?!)

As far as his mindset goes, the impression I got was that he'd learn some basics initially, and then later just set his piece aside for poop meets fan scenarios. I hope after reading this (and with a little prodding from my buddy ;) ) he'll change his mind towards practicing with it. Small steps, perhaps, but in the right direction, eh?

Thanks again for the input, guys. :)

[roscoe]

Another vote against the shotgun: I think a long gun can be too hard to use in tight quarters, and the operator has to think about things like whether the safety is on, or whether a round is in the chamber before he racks it and loses a round on the floor, or god-forbid he clench up and should short-shuck in the dark. Plus, the noise, flash, and kick can disorient. And, if he is vaguely an anti, he probably will have it buried in the closet where no one can see it. A handgun can be kept more easily concealed by the bed.

I also am in favor of a revolver. Nothing to think about except whether it is loaded. A S&W, Ruger, etc., will probably be the ticket. I think that .357 is too much for indoor self-defense for someone inexperienced and without hearing protection - .38 is probably just the ticket. If he insists on semi-auto go with a Glock: also no safeties to think about, and they are pretty reliable. I would think 9mm is plenty.

He needs to at least go to the range a few times and maybe take a class. And if he is an anti, tell him for gods sake not to feel guilty about owning a firearm.

[Ala Dan]

a 6" (six-shot) Smith & Wesson 686-5 .357 magnum

Why? Cuz "non gunnies" can always use it as a CLUB, if
all else fail's!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Matt G]

I was going to recommend a Smith M18, but a GP100 would also be a fine thing. Either one, load with .38 +P LSWCHP's, and demand that he at least practice dry firing a few times a month.

I, too, dislike pumps for folks who won't practice with them. Also, SG's rarely get taken to answer the door when the pizza delivery guy (one hopes) shows up.

[foghornl]

If said person is not willing to invest the time and money for training and practice, then I suggest the biggest revolver he can find...like the Magnum Research (?) BFR in 454 Casull or 45-70.

Buy no ammo, but fill cylinder and barrel with concrete, to make a better throwing weapon.

Seriuosly, if you do not make time and spend money for training & practice, stick with the throwing weapons and Dial 9-1-1.

[MoNsTeR]

A revolver or DAO auto is good from the standpoint of simple operation, but a non-shooter will not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with one. Maybe a Glock trigger is light enough to be useful, but your average box-stock DA wheelgun is going to be near useless in the hands of someone who won't practice with it.

[New_comer]

Another vote against the shotgun On the contrary, I believe a shotgun should not be discounted just yet.

The intimidation factor alone, that dreadful racking of a scattergun, may be enough to dissuade most if not all home invaders.

A gung-ho perp who still insists in challenging a homeowner with loaded shotgun truly is a BGINS - Bad Guy In Need of Shooting (picked that up sometime ago at TFL :D)

And with #00 or slug, the "one-stop shot" concept becomes a reality. ;)

Should your friend be recoil-sensitive, a 20-ga loaded with # 3 buck, would be nearly as effective. Twenty pcs of quarter-inch pellets would still be devastating.

HOWEVER, by insisting not to undergo proper training, in whatever weapon he eventually chooses, he is FOOLISH. :fire:

He'd be a hazard not only to himself, but to the loved ones he intends to protect. :banghead:

[sm]

All the good points about wanting to train-or- reliance on luck covered...

Med frame revolver(38/357) and a single shot shotgun comes to mind.

Part of this based on some Folks I know, due to age, arthritis, or limited physical abilities...trust me, some would love to be able to do as they once did -physically.

'sides...ever seen what a NEF youth model 20 ga single shot will do?

[tbeb]

Rossi double barrel shotgun--20 gauge or 12 gauge. No longer made but can be found used for about $250. Barrel length is about 20", hammers are external (one for each barrel), and there's two triggers (one for each barrel). This model is called a coach gun because it is like the one you see in western movies on stagecoaches.

Once gun is loaded, all you do is cock each hammer and pull each trigger.

[1badmagnum]

how about a taurus pt 92 9mm,you can get a 30 round magazine for spray and pray :):neener:

[Dr.Rob]

Really.. if you take him out and let him try a few of your he just MIGHT get interested in practicing.

That said a SW model 10 or GP 100 would be just fine, nothing fancy to fool with, easy to load and unload, inexpensive and uncomplicated. I would NOT give a beginner a DA/SA auto.

And if I was going to recommend a shotgun, again for ease of use would be a double rather than a pump gun. When you load it and close it, it's cocked, period. Problem is there just aren't many inexpensive short barrelled doubles (ie Stevens, Stoeger) anymore, as now they command "cowboy" pricing. I haven't seen a Rossi for sale anywhere in years. I have not been impressed with the Baikal shotguns with "external hammers" they look cheap and cosmetic, internal hammers would be better.

Again, get him to the range and bust some clays, then fire that 12 ga. into a wet phone book using a trap load at "hallway" range. He'll get the idea. Shotguns don't make the earth shake and everything fall dead when you pull the trigger, you still have to aim.

[BamBam-31]

I would in a hearbeat, Dr. Rob, but I'm in LA, and he's near DC. Expensive range session, eh? If he were in LA, I'd bring along another buddy of mine that has the 6" GP100. Then the guy could also try out a Glock, HK, Sig, Springfield, Kahr, Rem 870, etc. But, alas, he's on the wrong coast.

The more I think about it, the more the revolver sounds like the right choice. Thanks again for the input, guys.

BTW, Ala Dan-- Hmm, recommending something OTHER than the Sig 220A?! You, sir, are an imposter! ;) :D

[chaim]

You know, I just had an idea (rare thing that is). There are plenty of THRers in the DC area. Maybe someone could take him to the range as mutual friends/acquaintences of Bam-Bam's. If he's willing to drive out to Columbia or to On Target near Ft. Meade to meet me I'd be happy to let him try out some of my revolvers (any maybe a .22lr rifle or two)- the semi-auto handguns will have to wait however.

[Tom Doniphon]

If he isn't gonna practice, go with the dbl barrel.

[twoblink]

I was going to say what you did, GP100 4", so you can shoot 357Maggies for homeD, and 38's for target practice.

But get that after you get a Winchester Defender ...

[BamBam-31]

UPDATE:

No one in the movies ever uses a revolver anymore, so he bought the Glock 17. :scrutiny: It was that, the Sig 226, or the Beretta 92F. At least he bought the one with the simplest manual of arms. You can lead a horse to water....

My first handgun was a Glock 19. Maybe he'll actually enjoy practicing with it, eh? Who knows?

(If you two are reading this, at least practice dry firng it. It's a Glock, it can handle it.)

Thanks for the input anyways, fellas.

[twoblink]

I'm assuming SOMEONE ran down the basics of gun safety with them??

Tell them to TAKE A CLASS.

REPEAT::

TAKE A CLASS

[jrpeterman]

First your buddy's cousin needs to get some training. How can he expect to effectively use a handgun in a streesful situation without it? If he's not willing to learn the basics in handgun handling, he would be better off without one and settle on using a baseball bat. For less than $ 300.00, he can get a good used .357 magnum. For about $ 100.00, a basic handgun course would teach him the basics in handgun safety and legal issues. Another $ 100.00 for a gun club membership and $ 200.00 in practice ammo would be in the ballpark of the $600.00-700.00 that this person is willing to spend.

Remember this simple rule, training+practice=confidence. Good luck in convincing this guy to do the right thing.

[CZ-75]

Glock would've been my last choice, and I own a G20 and was thinking of buying a few more before Januzzo made me question that idea.

I really think that the lack of a safety, coupled with the 5.5lb trigger is a bad thing for a newbie. Sure, revolvers have no safety, but the pull weight is at least double the Glock on non-Pythons or un-tuned guns.

Hence, I worry about him sticking it in his pocket while checking out a noise in the basement, or just shoving it into the nightstand. He could retrieve it in the dark and have an ND.

Also, concepts of dropping the mag and racking the slide to clear might elude him. Or worse, that he'd possibly ND when trying to disassemble, since you need to release the striker to remove the slide.

Why did your friend even ask you anything? Obvious he knew everything to begin with. Now he can not practice, ND, crap down his leg and blather about how guns are dangerous and only police should have one. :rolleyes:

[hansolo]

One can only shake ones head and hope this fellow doesn't do what many longtime and experienced LEOs have done with Glocks.........KABOOM!

To ER Doctor: "I went to field stip it and it just went off...........I didn't think there was one in the chamber" :banghead:

[Jedi_7.62]

If he isn't going to learn how to use it he should sell it to someone that is responsible enough to handle it.

Buy a big dog. It seems he likes trends so get a Rotwiler(sp?) and a baseballbat.

This is the kind of crap that get's innocent people hurt and killed.

At least send him a daily email telling him all guns are loaded all the time allways.

My 6 yr. old child knows this..

[arinvolvo]

This guy probably shouldnt own any guns...but hey, it IS his constitutional right, is it not?

If he isnt going to practice, or even shoot the thing....then he is probably better off with a golf club. However I have read numerous stories of people successfully firing a weapon the THE VERY FIRST TIME in order to defend their lives...However, there are just as many, if not more stories of uneducated gun owners blowing themselves away...

So if this guy insists on a handgun, go with him to pick out a revolver...and just make sure you show him which end the bullets come out of.:rolleyes:

[arinvolvo]

well crap...I just realized the "update" above...seems as if he made the silliest of all choices for a first gun that he is not going to take the time to get acquainted with....However, just the mere fact that he OWNS a Glock might excite him into wanting to use it....So maybe he might practice after all...And then again, maybe he will just shoot himself in the *** when shoving it in his back pocket.

[BamBam-31]

My buddy was in the Navy, so he has more than a passing familiarity with firearms (and submarines). I'm sure he'll show his cousin the basics. I got on my buddy to get on his cousin about practicing with the Glock.

Once at the range, I truly think he'll acquire a taste for it. When I first purchased mine, I thought to myself, "You know, I owe it to myself and to those around me to become at least somewhat proficient with this if I'm to own one." So off to the range I went. After a few sessions, I thought, "Hey, this is really cool! Great way to blow off some steam, too!" The rest is history.

[billcameron]

Good advise on medium frame revolver. However, he should get some training. The NRA is in Northern VA outside DC and they have an indoor range. He should give them a call and see if they offer or can recommend training. He might also call Blue Ridge Arsenal also in No. Va, which has range and I am pretty sure still gives classes.

[Mad Man]

My buddy was in the Navy, so he has more than a passing familiarity with firearms

:confused: :confused: :confused:

If he had been in the Coast Guard, I could understand. But the Navy?

[BamBam-31]

Yup, the Navy. IIRC, he had to stand watch on his boat armed with either a handgun (the M-9, I think) or a shotgun. Don't remember if he ever mentioned training with M-16's.

He never mentioned having to train with firearms, but I'm assuming the Navy won't issue you a weapon without first training you in its use.

You have something against the Navy, Mad Man?

[bestseller92]

Your suggestion of a GP100 sounds like a winner to me.

[Nomad, 2nd]

Short barreled Remington 1100.

Shotguns are good home defense
Semi so that he won't 'short stroke' a pump...

[PistolNewbie]

:what: Holy sh*t! This is what makes firearms dangerous! :fire: He should take a gun safety course at the very least, and then go to the range a few times and have someone help him learn to shoot. This is why so many people are against firearms; they are afraid someone will hurt/kill themselves or others. Who knows, you just might get hooked, make new friends, discover a new hobby and become a gun enthusiast. :D

[geekWithA.45]

I recommend autoloading pistol caliber carbines for the newbie who wants a gun "just in case", and isn't all that interested in putting the investment into attaining and maintaining handgun proficiency.

They're easy to use, hard to miss, and won't frighten off the recoil averse.

[Geronimo45]

Those making recommendations... this thread qualifies as an antique (2003).

I think a new shooter with no training might be tempted to 'spray and pray' if you gave him a high-cap autoloader. Don't think it would happen so easily with a revolver. Lasergrips on the gun couldn't hurt, either.

[MICHAEL T]

Take a safety course ,go to range, practice , on and on . We are gun people we do these thing. Adverage citizens ,buys gun ,load gun and puts in drawer. Like owning a fire ex. Its their if I need it. Know what I bet 90% of the people we read about that shot BG in a robbery attemp or in a house breaking Here or in the NRA mag , NEVER had 1 DAY or TRAINING . They grabbed the pistol and fired . No fancey gunfighter school, no range time ,nothing. They used and lived.
We get to wraped up in our selves People have been shooting people for a long time With out all the training and practice. What get me is these untrained citizens Have a better hits ratio verses number of shots fired than most police
Remember we like and shoot our pistols Adverage person just has one,not really interested in training or shooting . But when comes to that time. They need it. They do a pretty good job

[coelacanth]

This nimrod lives in a townhouse which implies a lot of neighbors close by and probably separated by something less than bulletproof walls. If that is in fact the case and he plans on purposeful ignorance by not practicing with his chosen weapon then how can we in good conscience recommend any firearm that will almost certainly penetrate those walls? If he must have a weapon to feel safe I recommend a side by side 12 guage with 18" barrels. Short, handy, ridiculously simple to operate and can be loaded with the kind of ammo that is deadly across the room but not into the next room. Face it - this guy neither wants nor needs the equipment necessary to win a running gun battle, he just wants some peace of mind. Cogito ergo scattergun.

[crankshop1000]

Since he said he wasn't going to practice, he does not need a gun for defense.A ball bat and a cell phone should serve him. Chuck.

[Seancass]

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/coach.tpl

point and squeeze.

and remind him you dont buy a race car without knowing how to drive. there is no honda civic of guns, only race cars.

[RNB65]

Guys, guys, guys... this thread is over 4 years old. I suspect this decision has been made by now.

Unless the guy is looking at buying an AR -- in which case I could understand a 4 year paralysis by analysis.

:D

[yhtomit]

RNB65 wrote: "Guys, guys, guys... this thread is over 4 years old. I suspect this decision has been made by now.

Unless the guy is looking at buying an AR -- in which case I could understand a 4 year paralysis by analysis."

Well, now I'm curious -- I wonder what he ended up doing, and what his THR nick is ;) Maybe he's right now training in an undisclosed location ...

timothy