1911 Kb


June 19, 2004, 09:04 AM
This (http://www.thegunzone.com/colt45-40.html) apparently happened at Gunsite.

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June 19, 2004, 12:47 PM


BTW...What is a "Trigger Shoe?"

June 19, 2004, 12:56 PM
In the photo ,the thing on the trigger , which gives you in effect a wider trigger. Unsafe because they have a tendancy to bind on the holster an give you an ND.......We have 12/20 kbooms , now we have 45/40 kbooms !!

June 19, 2004, 01:03 PM
Been a long time since I've seen a 1911 with a squared trigger guard. I don't believe people actually paid for this modification. What an imbecile.

June 19, 2004, 01:10 PM
I am surprised the gun was permitted on the line with a trigger shoe.

Andrew Wyatt
June 19, 2004, 01:46 PM
What does the squared trigger guard have to do with anything?

June 19, 2004, 01:48 PM
Unfortunate, but understandable.

Good Shooting

June 19, 2004, 01:49 PM
What does the squared trigger guard have to do with anything?


June 19, 2004, 02:08 PM
The trigger guard is not for me, but I've seen others do sillier things done to pistols. I'll leave that one to personal preference.

I've heard of trigger shoes coming loose and that could be a safety issue, especially in a course pistol course where you are shooting hundreds of rounds over a comparatively short period of time. I have never used one or seen one in use, but I have heard of problems with them. I'd just assume get either a medium or long trigger and do it right.

As the story said, the biggest issue was the guy was too cheap to let a spare round on the ground wait until it was safe to pick it up, inspect it, etc. Poor choices/priorities and trying to do things on the cheap seems to be the biggest problem. Big difference between being frugal and being cheap. Cheap usually bites you on the a**.

Old Fuff
June 19, 2004, 02:15 PM
The linked page was informative, but I fail to see what the pistol's cosmetics (squared trigger guard) or the trigger shoe (that had no business being on a weapon carried in a holster) had to do with the "ka-boom." These are seperate and unrelated issues.

The damage done to the pistol (but fortunately not to the owner or bystanders) was caused entirely because he chambered and fired a .40 S&W cartridge and then followed with a .45 round. Any similar obstruction in any .45 pistol would have produced similar results.

Why blame the gun - its design or manufacturer???

Jim Watson
June 19, 2004, 02:22 PM
We had the same thing happen at our local IDPA shoot this morning, with the single difference that the shooter stopped at the peculiar report instead of chambering a .45 in behind the .40 empty. You just have to be careful what you put in these things.

cracked butt
June 19, 2004, 02:55 PM
II have always said that some people shouldn't have guns
(especially lately- the increase in the number of incidents by students- who all have had esposure to guns, training and such- is rising dramatically) or cars, or children, or oxygen.

Thankyou for your insightful commentary Mrs Brady, or was it Mr. Hitler??:barf:

If students are having incidents, I wouldn't blame their lack of taste in guns, but would question the effectiveness of the teaching in the programs.

This jackoff, instead of making a useful learning lesson out of the incident, used the incident to trash gun owners and their perceived frugality. If he is a typical instructor at gunsite, I'm crossing that place off the list of places I might consider going to for training.

Andrew Wyatt
June 19, 2004, 03:06 PM
by CWO3 Patrick A. Rogers, USMC (ret.)

June 19, 2004, 03:23 PM
I'm with cracked butt, I found the tone of the article insulting. While what the shooter did was foolish, to spend half the article ridiculing the looks of the gun and talking about who he thinks is unfit to own a gun is simply insulting.

June 19, 2004, 04:03 PM
"I'm with cracked butt, I found the tone of the article insulting. While what the shooter did was foolish, to spend half the article ridiculing the looks of the gun and talking about who he thinks is unfit to own a gun is simply insulting."

Let me introduce you to Dean Speir, owner of the GunZone...:rolleyes:

June 19, 2004, 04:46 PM
Can't believe 1 round of .40 did that. My father once put 3 rounds of my .40 through his Ruger p90 before he realized what he was doing. It wouldn't feed but it went off everytime he chambered it, and it didn't damage the gun at all.

cracked butt
June 19, 2004, 04:58 PM
It wasn't the .40 cartridge that hurt the gun, it was the spend case that didn't eject and got pushed forward into the barrel by the .45 cartridge behind it. AS someone else mentioned, this is a well known folly with carrying 20 guage shells while shooting a 12 guage shotgun- a shooter reaches into his pocket and grabs a 20 guage shell and chambers it- the gun doesn't go off, the man opens the breach and chambers a 12 guage round which will chamber easily as it will push the 20 guage shell forward into the chamber, resulting in an obstructed bore. Same concept witht he .40/.45 except in this case, the .40 fired before the case made its way deeper into the chamber.

Never have ammo of a different caliber/chambering anywhere near you or on your person when you are shooting.

June 19, 2004, 06:18 PM
I found the article uninformative. I was already aware of 9/40, 40/45 and 20/12 bore KBs. I found the writer to be condescending. I think the writer has a BB brain in a larger caliber head myself. Poorly written and offensive. A anti in sheeple clothing.

June 19, 2004, 06:51 PM
Why blame the gun

101% correct, it's pure operator error.

June 19, 2004, 07:02 PM
Didn't your mother ever tell you when something bad happens, it's never your fault?

That seems to be what kids are being taught these days.

June 19, 2004, 08:07 PM
I also find the author's tone unprofessional. He supposed to be in the business of training people and should be training them to be safe. Looks like he failed, eh?

June 19, 2004, 08:21 PM
Hmm...dogging on Pat Rogers...bad form fellas. :(

June 19, 2004, 08:22 PM
:D :D :D

"This jackoff,"
"A anti in sheeple clothing"
"I also find the author's tone unprofessional."
"I found the writer to be condescending."
"I found the tone of the article insulting"

Oh if you poor souls ever meet Pat Rogers in person.
Why don't you go over to U.S. Marine forum at TacticalForums.com and tell him exactly what you think of him. :D :D :D
Or write to him at SWAT magazine.
He used to drop in here once in awhile but he got tired of arguing with the arm chair commandos that think they know something.

Let's see..........Was what they guy did short sighted and stupid ?
Does Pat have any problem telling you that right up front in so many words ?

June 19, 2004, 08:35 PM
I didn't see anything wrong with the way the report was written. Then again, I'm somewhat acclimated to crusty firearms instructor who have all the tact of a tank. This had to be one of the more stupid things I've heard about over the years. I really think the course instructor's should completely prohibit picking up live rounds that have fallen to the floor. It's amazing to see the frame bent like that. Anybody happen to look at the photo display on the sidebar? Different gun, though still a 1911. The dust cover was split and bent.

cracked butt
June 19, 2004, 08:49 PM
Never heard of the man before, don't know his accreditations, and this is the first thing I've ever read or heard of from him.

First impressions count for alot.

While he might have a following with a certain crowd, there are plenty of others, like me who may not know anything about him or his background. Having seen alot of elitist attitudes on the internet where "only certain people should have guns" makes it real easy for an outsider like me to pigeonhole a person when they publish some rant about how many people are too stupid to own guns because one shooter commits a major safety faux pas. Ranting about the shooter's taste in firearms certainly doesn't make a better case for helping to educate others. We as shooters and gun owners have enough problems with antis without having experts in the field degrading and demeaning those who are trying to become more proficient.

Once again, first impressions.

Chris Rhines
June 19, 2004, 08:49 PM
I read nothing particularly offensive in the article, although I'd disagree that the Novak sights are any kind of saving grace...

- Chris

June 19, 2004, 09:21 PM
I aggree that some people shouldn't own guns too...I don't think it is the Governments place (or anyone else's) to decide who though, I'll leave that to Darwin. That's the way I read that particular comment as well.

Even though the gun's ugliness had nothing to do with the incident, I'm glad that poor, once proud, series 70 was euthanized and spared further embarrassment at the hands of this student.:neener:

June 19, 2004, 09:46 PM
"We had the same thing happen at our local IDPA shoot this morning"

I shot a match last Tuesday night where a guy fired a .40 S&W round out of a Ruger .45 ACP. He realized something was wrong and stopped. He was shooting factory ammo and doesn't even own a .40 S&W. The round came from the factory packaged in a box of .45 ACP cartridges. Of course the brass expanded to fill the .45 ACP chamber which resulted in the case spliting numerous times. The extractor didn't clear the fired case and it had to be knocked out with a squib rod. I never did get an answer as to whether or not he hit anything.

"He supposed to be in the business of training people and should be training them to be safe. Looks like he failed, eh?"
Aw, no. If you read the article you will see that he clearly stated that he was not teaching the class.
At the two firearms schools I have been to (including Gunsite) they strongly advise you not to pick ammo up off the ground. They tell you that they wouldn't do it themselves. However, I don't think they can tell you that you can't pick up your own ammo or brass: they just tell you it isn't a good idea and they wouldn't do it (this is the horse and water thing).
And as Pat mentioned in the article, he doesn't allow you to bend over on the line until everyone is clear and he gives the command.
Picking up ammo on the ground is kind of a hard habit to break. I do it all the time when I am shooting here at home. At these gun schools, you probably end up losing 50-100 rounds of ammo on the ground between malfunction clearence drills, actual malfunctions, dropping it by accident, clearing your gun and not catching the round etc. My first impulse is to pick it up and I sometimes do, but it isn't a good idea. I think Pat sums it up quite well: is your gun worth the couple cents that you would give up by leaving the round lying right where it is ? Is it really worth it to introduce sand into your chamber and barrel in order to not waste a couple cents on that round ? He is right, but old habits die hard.

As for his comments on the gun itself, I have mixed feelings. IMO, a good instructor will tell you what makes up a good gun for the purposes he is training you for based on his experience (and with Pat, that experience is extensive). In today's society everyone wants to be PC and not hurt anyone's feelings. For me, I would much rather just have someone tell me straight out when I am making a mistake. I am not so weak that I can't take it. I would rather be embarrased and learn from my mistakes than have someone that knows better not tell me I am making a mistake in order to be PC. That is counterproductive to the whole purpose of being there. The purpose of being there is to learn, not have your ego massaged.

June 20, 2004, 12:24 AM
I don't care who that Pat Rogers guy is. He sounds like a know-it-all jerk to me and I wouldn't bother taking a class he taught.

June 20, 2004, 02:25 AM
I vote the author is a jackass. The guy made a mistake, granted, a big one. But come on, get out of the 3rd grade buttmunch.


June 20, 2004, 06:18 AM
Squared trigger guard:

It was very popular in the '80's for the finger forward hold. The main problem was to get a d#@m holster to put the gun in.


The wirter of that article reminds me of Sargent Major in the army that used to jump on your back on the shooting range when you did something stupid. I can remember very few of the things that he taught me.

But... I can remember almost everything that a Reconniassance Commando intructor taught me on house clearing and urban warfare. He was very strict, but always civil and curtious. Oviously there was the obligatory extra P.T. for the things that was done wrong, but it was al done very controlled and in a good manner. It was a very hard course, but I loved it and I will always remember what he thaught me. It has kept me alive in the military and one time in civilian life aswell.

What I am trying to say is that you do not have to ridicule people to get there attention and repect.


June 20, 2004, 06:49 AM
I think the writer has a BB brain in a larger caliber head myself.


i didn't think the gun looked that bad except for the trigger shoe. the guy made a mistake a big one. you don't just pick a bullet up and shove it in the pipe. you have to be serious and seriously carefull. thats how alot of accidents happen, by not paying attention.


June 20, 2004, 08:38 AM
Never heard of the man before, don't know his accreditations, and this is the first thing I've ever read or heard of from him. No it's not. You just disn't realize it.
Look up "been there, done that" in the dictionary and you'll probaly find his picture.

But don't worry about him, several jackasses that weren't fit to pick up his range brass ran him off THR a few months ago. :mad:

Personally I agree with him. Any MORON who grabs a strange round off the the firing line (it's obvious it wasn't even his round) and loads it without inspection is an IMBECILE. And such IDIOTs are dangerous to be around.

I can only imagine if this had happened at your local range. What would you be saying if a local range ninja picked up a live round, tossed it in hs magazine without looking, let off a few rounds until KABOOM and a piece of flying steel zinged you in the temple?

I'll wager you'd be right here telling us what a NUMBSKULL this guy was and how we should be chlorinating the gene pool.

As for the trigger shoe comment, try to find anyone who knows their arse from their elbows who still uses a trigger shoe on a semi-auto pistol. They were considered dangerous and foolhardy 50 years ago. They are so uncommon nowadays in fact that some of you didn't even know what they were. There's a reason for that. They fall off at the most inconvienient times and they make a semi-automatic pistol DANGEROUS.
What surprises me is that Gunsite let this BUFFOON on the firing line with it.

June 20, 2004, 09:29 AM
Such a condemning editorial can be written for the majority of accidental and negligent discharges one reads on this board.

"Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the cheapest of the pleasures; costs nothing and conveys much. It pleases him who gives and him who receives, and thus, like mercy, it is twice blessed."
-Erastus Wiman

Jeff Timm
June 20, 2004, 10:09 AM
I agree with the article. Poor instruction. Did the instructor even inspect the pistol his student was using?

It has been many years since I was an instructor (firearms that is) I required the Squad leaders to inspect the weapons. Then taught the students to inspect the weapons prior to use. Range proceedure also required "rodding" the rifles entering and leaving the range.

Military instruction tends to be loud, and unfortunately, back in the 1970's inadequate. "There I wuz surrounded by 100 or so women, all wearing combat boots and holding M-16A1s..."

I would also like to know what the cheif said to the instructor who was teaching the student in question.

Who still remembers certain stupidities on his part.:rolleyes:

June 20, 2004, 10:55 AM
Ok, I agree that the student did foolish and hazardous thing; but, to openly question his right to exist!?!?!

I have worked many ranges as an armorer, it was my job to instruct the rest of the company on proper weapon maintenace and zeroing techniques. No matter how bad Pvt. numbskull messed up his weapon (and there were quite a few) I never treated anyone this bad. Bad JUJU as far as I am concerned.

I may have ordered my fair share of remeidial exercises, but I always tried to treat even the lowest ranking and lowest common sense having people with the upmost respect.

June 20, 2004, 12:38 PM
.40/.45 is not an uncommon error, and you don't have to be picking up rounds off the deck for it to happen. I've found .40 rounds in boxes of .45 at schools and have assumed that it was students unloading .40 mags in the wrong boxes. Could be packaging error by the factory, too, I guess.

June 20, 2004, 03:56 PM
Confused say, "round on floor is there for a reason".

George Hill
June 20, 2004, 04:49 PM
Dean Spier is a member here in good standing and we will not allow him to be insulted, just like we will not allow any other member to be insulted.
His website is his own venue for his opinion. He can say what he wants there.
And he is right. The guy was stupid.
I disagree about the gun being ugly, other than the squared trigger guard... but that's not the point.
We all have our own opinions.
My opinion is that this thread has outlived it's usefullness.

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