If the P7 is so great then...


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natedog
February 12, 2003, 10:19 PM
why doesn't H&K make more of them? They seem to be very rare, and none of my local gun shops ever stock them. I once asked the clerk about it, and he said that they are very hard to get in stock because H&K harldly makes any of them. I've read that they can be cocked, aimed, and fired more accurately and faster than anyother pistol of similar size.

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10-Ring
February 12, 2003, 10:27 PM
Very quick to draw, point & shoot accurately. Really nice trigger out of box w/ very natural pointing characteristics. I have been a fan since my 1st box of 50 through mine.
I think the big drawback of the P7M8 is the expense, $1200 minimum new is a pretty steep price for a 8 shot 9mm. As a result of the expense, there are relatively few prospective buyers. I think that's why HK developed the USP line to attract more civilian customers.

longspurr
February 12, 2003, 10:35 PM
They are pricey but that doesn't make them less than great! Having shot one several times and seen them used at USPA shoots I think they are the "best" 9mm for defensive "practical" shooting on the market.

You are right, they are pricey and rare. If only they could make them in China we would probably buy them for $300. It might make me alter my policy of not buying anything from China.

dude
February 12, 2003, 10:37 PM
supply--demand


........and the small production line often gets overwhelmed for months at a time by various worldwide LEO dept orders

DeltaElite
February 12, 2003, 10:38 PM
I know few people who spend that kind of money on a gun.
If they do, it seems to be a 1911, instead of a P7.

honocor
February 12, 2003, 11:42 PM
From what I understand, H&K still makes them quite a bit. The problem is only a couple hundred are "imported" a year though. That is where the rarity comes from.

CWL
February 13, 2003, 12:13 AM
You can buy all you want, just place an order. Don't be afraid to look on the internet for sources, both new, police trade-ins & private transactions.

I suspect that your gunstore could order you a $20,000 shotgun if you placed an order, good luck asking to see a display though.

Handy
February 13, 2003, 01:12 AM
Name some other premium item that is also common. There aren't alot of Acura NSXs out there either. Why doesn't Kobe produce more beef?

Skunkabilly
February 13, 2003, 01:40 AM
Why didn't Van Gogh paint more? :D

tlhelmer
February 13, 2003, 05:43 AM
Very nice gun overall.

I am not knocking the P-7, but here is what I observed. It was heavy for an 8 round 9mm. It heated up fast if you wanted to do fast shooting and reloading drills. 850.00 is a lot of money for a used handgun which is what I paid for my P-7.

AK103K
February 13, 2003, 06:40 PM
I had a P7M13. I only paid $450 for it new. :) They are great shooting pistols. Nice trigger out of the box and very accurate. They are very fast on the reload, that big hole in the bottom of the grip with the narrow tapered mag make it hard to miss. Droping the slide using the grip is fast and easy too. As mentioned, they do heat up when fired fast, even with the heat shield. At the time I had mine, there weren't many holsters available for them. The biggest problem I had was the mag always seemed to be on the seat of the truck when I got out. Seems the seat belt would hit the mag release and drop the mag. Not really the guns fault, I'm sure a better holster would stop this. It was one of the few guns I really made any money on when I sold it. Got $975 for it.

Tim Burke
February 13, 2003, 08:04 PM
Didn't realize they were rare. (http://www.pittcountywildlifeclub.20fr.com/images/hkcrew2%5B1%5D.jpg)
This isn't even all of the local P7 shooters.

Benton
February 15, 2003, 04:47 AM
Can someone explain the basis for the cost of the P7? Walther and SIG-Sauer pistols from the same part of the world and of equal quality cost a good bit less. I remember when the pistol first arrived in the U.S. magazine articles noted that it was designed with ease of manufacture in mind and little hand labor involved. I gather, too, that the money doesn't seem to go toward the most advanced corrosion-resistant finishes.

I do admire the pistol and enjoy shooting those of my friends; it's just that the reason for their four digit price tags eludes me. Perhaps there's something expensive in its production that's not obvious to me. If so, then maybe HK could apply some of that storied German engineering genius to efficiencies in the manufacture process. They'd sure be selling a lot more P7s.

harrydog
February 15, 2003, 10:47 AM
I had a P7M8 that I bought new back around 1993.
It was very well made and accurate. The squeeze cock mechanism is very innovative and makes for a fast shot from the draw.
But I really hated the way it got hot after shooting a few mags. It is heavy for only an 8 shot 9mm. It rusts relatively easily. It's more maintenance senstive than many other guns.
I just didn't fall in love with it the way the P7 cultists do.
Overall, a fine gun, and very unique, but not my cup of tea.
I sold mine and have no regrets.

Mylhouse
February 15, 2003, 11:49 AM
I'm always befuddled about this myth about the P7 being the fastest pistol out there to draw, cock and fire (bring into action, whatever the expression is).

How is it faster than simply pulling a Glock (for instance) out of your holster and just pulling the trigger ?!

How is it faster than thumbing down the safety on a 1911 clone as you're bringing it up to target?

The only speed advantage I see is during reloads because all you have to do is insert a new mag and squeeze the cocker again to drop the slide on a fresh round.

I'm sorry, but I'm also not buying the most precise autopistol on the market argument. The point that the barrel is fixed is always made in support of the claim. Well, the sights are on the slide, not the barrel, and the slide would have to be tightly fitted to the barrel and frame and the slide would have to lock up to the same exact position to validate that claim. From a RANSOM REST, the P7 would probably outshoot most any other pistol, but not if a human pilot is aiming and flying each of the shots.

Not trolling, just giving my $.02.

dude
February 15, 2003, 12:03 PM
you would have to shoot one to understand

Over the years I have had several folks quite amazed after shooting my P7 for the first time and two Die-hard Glock fans instantly converted to after the first mag.


It's a cult thing

Intrestingly, the P7 is not my favorite 9mm

Mylhouse
February 15, 2003, 12:09 PM
you would have to shoot one to understand

I do understand. I owned a P7M8 for nearly 2 years. I spent a small fortune on it and even had it hardchomed. I bought into all the hype from hkpro.com and parkcitiestactical.com. I was waiting for all the alleged P7 magic to come to me, but it never did anything for me. Believe me, with all the money and time I invested into that thing, I really wanted to love it....but couldn't. It just didn't do anything superlatively for me...

And the maintenance aspect of the gun was too much of a PITA for me.

IMHO and YMMV

Walther P99
February 15, 2003, 12:11 PM
The P7 is an excellent pistol, high quality and very well built.

However, the downfall for me was my hands are too weak to hold down that cocker for long; they would involuntarily relax after only a little bit...

dude
February 15, 2003, 12:18 PM
the magic just did'ent work for you then there Mylhouse

.........nice try though! I never understood the HC thing and yes they are maintenance heavy.

The P7 was the first auto pistol I ever shot/owned back when I was 21 (1984) The Berreta the Army issued me was my second and an M13 I scored years later was my third. I've since dabbeled with a S&W 910 and a Glock 30 while having a minor fling with a Berreta so-called Ellite II. All were passable but to me were not as nice as my old P7 and they did not remain in the safe very long (the Ellite II the shortest!......yuck). Then a few months ago an IMI compact 9 entered my life and the P7s are gone!!

El Tejon
February 15, 2003, 12:33 PM
natedog, to answer your question, just like rifles, the "Iwannacoolgun" virus is driven by scarcity. If rare, it must be good, right?:rolleyes:

If people have something that is not seen everyday, it sets them apart from others--cool. If a gun company is smart, there are several ways to exploit this. But, then, the purpose of the gun business is not to make money.

Pilot
February 15, 2003, 04:55 PM
I guess some buy them becauce they pereceive them as rare or scarce. If you think that this is the only reason people buy P-7's then you obviously don't own one. They are the best compact 9MM, at any price. At an average used price of $750 - $800, I think they are well worth it. Check the price of a decent 1911, Browning Hi Power, Walther P88 or P5 and you'll see the P-7 is not comparitively that expensive.

El Tejon
February 15, 2003, 05:39 PM
Pilot, sure, it's a good gun, but just explaining to young natedog here about the CDI of P7s or anything else exotic. NIH=cool, and "Iwannacoolgun".

duncan
February 15, 2003, 06:24 PM
HK is still making the PSP and M8 versions of the P7.

It's on limited production because their money makers are the USP polymer series guns.

Even with the great quality, people still hold back on buying a $1K 9mm handgun.

And P7s surface NIB, LNIB, and used every month in at least two shops in the Seattle metro area.

P7s appear to most popular on the Coasts. So if you are in the South or Midwest, they are hard to find.

duncan
February 15, 2003, 06:30 PM
If you tke several 9mm handguns and shoot them.

Then look at your targets, most people REALLY shoot more accurately with the P7s. But they must adapt to the squeeze cocker.

The cost a lot because they are made of some of the finest steel I've ever seen on a gun.

And the internals are very smoothly machined.

Smooth inside and out.

Expense to build for materials cost and lots of hands on milling. Hence the $1200 price tag.

Same idea why people buy custom shop 1911s - fit, finish, labor, fully set up from the jump.

If you shoot 9mm, you should have one.

But alas, sounds like some of us missed the big chance to get a German police trade in P7 for $700 about two years. Haven't seen one of those pop up since them. People are keeping those.

If you can't find them and they arfe still in production, that's a good indicator that people LOVE those guns.

Lone_Gunman
February 15, 2003, 07:33 PM
Duncan, if P7s are more popular on the coasts, then wouldnt they be easier to find in the south and midwest?

larryw
February 15, 2003, 08:20 PM
I had a P7M8 that I bought new last year. It was a very nice gun. Very nice, shot well, felt good in the hand. But for me it was one of those that never really hooked me to the extent that I thought it would. I wound up shooting it less and less, so I sold it and used the money to buy a gun that did hook me (USP Expert in 45).

The P7 is one of those things that if you "get it", you better hang onto your wallet. A friend has a P7 collection that is legendary (and he just added another very rare model!) and the guy who bought my P7 had a big collection. I think his comment once we agreed on the terms was "cocaine would be a cheaper habit".

BHP9
February 15, 2003, 11:06 PM
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BHP9
February 15, 2003, 11:09 PM
I have owned two HK pistols both the original 7 shot and the later 13 shot. I have found both to be inferior both in terms of reliablity and safety as compared to locked breach pistols.

Here is some of the problems I encountered and some of the dislikes I have about them.

1. The squeeze cocking mechanism make a loud clickty clack when you release it giving away your position when you are in the dangerous situation of being imminent attack.

2. The heavy squeeze cocking mechanism often disturbs aim if one does not shoot quickly.

3. Contrary to common belief, it is not a safe system to use at all, but I found it quite dangerous. Police departments that have used this gun have found that in a panic situation the natural human tendency is to get a death like grip on any handgun which in the case of the squeeze cocker renders the gun cocked and ready to fire with no manuel safety in operation. Coupled with the very mushy trigger pull the gun has often been accidentally fired when the person was in the process of drawing it out to fire it as many police unfortunately found out by accidentally shooting themselves.

4. The gas system is way inferior to the Colt/Browning locked breach systems. It must not only be kept clean but is very sensitive to powder buring rates. I have found that using the wrong buring rate of powder the action will start to open prematurely resulting in a dangerous condition and one will experience excessive , sudden, and pounding recoil because of the premature opening of the slide. The American Rifleman magazine had an excellent write up some years ago on this phenomenon when the first tested the early P7 model.

4. If one likes to shoot much, the P7 series of pistols must be used with jacketed bullets and even if you use handloads using jacketed bullets it is very expensive compared to using lead bullets which is a no, no, in any gas operated pistol like the HK because lead shavings could plug up the gas system and result in a blow up. The gas system must be kept clean even when firing only jacketed factory ammo because when it gets dirty the gun will then fail to function.

5. Because of the Gas system the gun overheats rapidly. This of course will shorten barrel life if the gun is overheated too often and this will happen with as little as 50 rounds fired on a hot day.

6. The gun is way overpriced considering that is largely in the catagory of what has been called the modern "high tech sheet metal pistols" being made largley of internal sheet metal stampings. But due to the fact that it is made in Germany the price has been always quite high. It is therefore considered to be a prestige gun because of its huge price but I personnaly found it to shoot no better than many lower priced competitor guns. This is not because the gun is not very inherently accurate but because with its weird mushy trigger pull and heavy squeeze safety many people find shooting it a real challenge.

7. I. like many people I acquired them (at least briefly) out of curiosity because of their rather unique design being that they were gas operated.

8. Many years ago John Browning, the great firearms genius worked with trying to perfect a gas operated pistol but found that they were not as reliable as his short recoil guns so he decided to abandon such a design. Many years later modern firearms engineers had to rediscover what he had known many years before.

9. Despite its small size it is deceivingly heavy,

10. I remember reading that one police department some years ago had problems with firing pin breakage and one officer was killed in the line of duty when his firing pin broke. I do not know wether this problem was later rectified by a redisign or not.

Many people do like the HK's because they are an expensive prestige gun and a gun that is very different than most automatics but they take a long back seat when put up against the Browning short recoil designed guns when it comes to reliablity under severe conditions and with less than perfect ammo specifically taylored for or designed for this weapon.

El Tejon
February 15, 2003, 11:21 PM
But, but, BHP9, they look sooo cool!:rolleyes:

AK103K
February 16, 2003, 06:35 AM
Its been awhile since I sold mine, but I found it to be a a very accurate and easy pistol to shoot. You do need to put all others out of your mind when you shoot and carry it, and I dont think it would be a good on/off pistol. You need to either carry it or dont.
Mine had a very good single action trigger pull, it want musshy at all. When you say mushy, I think HK rifles.
The squeeze cocker, while slightly heavy to initially "cock", requires no weight or strength to hold it cocked. I could easily hold it cocked with just my thumb and pinky finger once cocked. Once I was used to shooting it, I never had it come uncocked unintentionally. The squeeze cocker does make the P7 one of the fastest guns to reload and get back into action. You can dump the mag easily with the trigger finger, that giant hole in the butt of the grip(P7M13) is hard to miss with a mag thats single stack at the top. Once seated all you need to do is close your grip and the guns ready again.
Safety isnt an issue if you follow basic safety procedures. Finger off the trigger till your sights are on and your fine. No different than a Glock.
It does get hot when shot fast and alot. Hot to the point of being uncomfortable, but thats just not a mag or two.
The sights on it are some of the best I've used. I like a lot of light around the front sight, and the P7 has a nice wide rear notch. Makes for a fast sight picture.
I always used jacketed bullets, be they factory or reloads. I never loaded 9mm with lead due to leading problems caused by fast moving bullets and lead. I've been hearing of a lot of problems with Glocks and polygonal rifling, (dont know if its the cause or not) so I dont know if it would be good to use lead if the gas system and leading wasnt an issue. You do need to keep it clean, but then again, you need to keep them all clean.
As for price, I wouldnt buy one for what they sell them today. They are not worth that. Then again, I wouldnt spend that much for any pistol, I dont see the need. When I bought mine, HK was still customer friendly, and the prices on all their guns was within reason. I paid $450 for it new around 84-85. I also paid $450 for my HK94($350 more and it was a MP5 :) ) and a little over $550 for my 91. Soon afterwards, HK went out of their minds, became dealer only, and you had to be a special HK approved dealer, and they wouldnt even talk to you on the phone if you werent, they'd hang up on you. They started to cater to the police and government sales and their prices jumped by a lot. I sold my P7 because it became worth to much to carry.(and a holster mag issue) I bought two Glocks for what I sold my HK for. (should have kept the HK for a safe queen, the Glocks were a mistake, but thats another story).
All in all, if the price were reasonable, I might get another. I wouldnt carry it as I like the 1911's best for a carry gun. The problem's I had with the mag always falling out in the truck would, I'm sure, not be a problem with a good Kydex holster that is available today. They only had two available when I got mine, and both were not very good.

Pilot
February 16, 2003, 07:20 AM
BHP9 Wrote:

"A down to earth hardball look at the inferiority of gas operated pistols"

Well we will have to disagree on this one. Based on my experience, I found your diatribe polarly opposite to my conclusions on the P-7 series. BTW, my favorite pistol is the Browning Hi Power, but I carry the P-7 more often due to many of the reasons you state the gun is inferior.

1. Reliablity (thousands of rounds, 0 failures)
1.a. Accuracy
2. Points naturally
3. Safe
4. Slim/small for its barrel size and caliber

Again, on price. $750 - $1,000 is not alot for a good pistol anymore. Most decent 1911's are in this price range and worth it I might add.

twoblink
February 16, 2003, 12:30 PM
There are "P7 people" and there aren't. I'm not a P7 person. First, spending $1200 for a PES dispenser, when I can by 3 CZ75's for the same price, means I'll probably never own one.

Second, it RUINS my shooting, as the grip you start with when you grab the gun isn't the same grip you use to shoot, and so that bothers me.

But I will say this for it, probably the only gun I would even TRY to mexican carry; unsecond thought, I'll never mexican carry...

lunde
February 16, 2003, 12:31 PM
BHP9, I disagree with much that you wrote. Releasing the squeeze-cocker is loud, about as loud as decocking an HK USP. But, there is a technique, described only in the earlier HK P7 manuals, for decocking silently. While cocked, pull the slide back about 1cm, then release the squeeze-cocker. This technique is much more quiet. Still, you shouldn't be cocking the P7 until you're ready to fire, so I don't see this as an issue.

As long as you keep the gas system clean, which takes very little effort using the tools that are supplied, the P7 is exceptionally reliable.

Also, how does the heat issue relate to barrel life exactly? The portion that gets hot is the frame. The frame is steel. While it may get very hot for humans to touch, I cannot see how it can shorten service life.

One of the local gun shops has two new-in-box HK P7M8s going for a tad over $1500. I paid $900 each for my two P7M8s a couple years ago, both new-in-box.

BHP9
February 16, 2003, 01:02 PM
Also, how does the heat issue relate to barrel life exactly? The portion that gets hot is the frame. The frame is steel. While it may get very hot for humans to touch, I cannot see how it can shorten service life.

Glad you asked that question.

Heat is the main killer of all barrels. Rifle shooters have long known that overheating a rifle barrel raises internal temperatures which accelerates throat erosion. It happens to pistols too, only on a scale somewhat slightly slower due to the smaller quantities of power used but pistols are often fired many thousands of times more than rifles on average so the accumulating damage soon affects pistol barrels as well.

And as an added note trying to change out an HK barrel on a squeeze cocker is not something the average home hobbiest will be able to do in a few minuets, if at all ,with out the proper tools and know how. In a way just another draw back to owning a fixed barrel pistol.

larryw
February 16, 2003, 02:36 PM
So, what you're saying is that a pistol that takes some of the pressure (heat) from firing and diverts it through the frame to operate the slide will heat, and therefore erode, the barrel faster than one that pushes all the pressure (heat) down the barrel? :rolleyes:

The rest of your rant displays a similar, questionable thought process.

CZ-75
February 16, 2003, 04:10 PM
I guess I'm not following the heat/barrel argument very well.

It would seem, like in brake rotors, mass is what determines heat absorbtion and dissipation. Varmint rifle makers must agree, since they are, invariably, heavy barreled guns.

Firing a given number of rounds through two guns, one a gas operated P7 and the other a Browning design, should produce an equal amount of heat, using the same ammo, barrel length/mass, ceteris parabus.

harrydog
February 16, 2003, 06:51 PM
I agree that there would probably be no difference in barrel life between the P7 and any other pistol with a quality barrel.
Here's an interesting read on heat an barrel wear. It's in the "barrel steel" section.
http://www.schuemann.com/

On a side note, I think that heavy barrels used in a varmint rifle are for barrel stability and hence improved accuracy. A light barrel is whippy.

BHP9
February 17, 2003, 07:38 PM
I agree that there would probably be no difference in barrel life between the P7 and any other pistol with a quality barrel.

Here's an interesting read on heat an barrel wear. It's in the "barrel steel" section.

I think you should re-read this:

The general problems result from the hot propellant gasses contact with the barrel bore. The propellants we use have a flame temperture of about 4500 degrees Fahrenheit. Because of adiabatic compression the temperature of the propellant gasses can increase to temperatures much higher than 4500 degrees Fahrenheit. This hot gas sweeps down the bore when a round is fired. The hot gas transfers heat into the surface of the bore. After each round is fired the heat which flowed into the bore surface is gradually conducted away by the barrel steel. Because the 416 steel has less thermal conductivity the heat flows away more slowly and if numerous rounds are fired in quick succession the surface temperature of the bore can become higher than a basic steel bore surface would.

[B]Firing a given number of rounds through two guns, one a gas operated P7 and the other a Browning design, should produce an equal amount of heat, using the same ammo, barrel length/mass, ceteris parabus.

So, what you're saying is that a pistol that takes some of the pressure (heat) from firing and diverts it through the frame to operate the slide will heat, and therefore erode, the barrel faster than one that pushes all the pressure (heat) down the barrel?


To simplify it. If you watch a lead ingot melt it does not matter where you heat the ingot. The temperature will rise to the point where the outer skin of the ingot or a barrel will reach a point where the outer surface of th ingot or inner surface of a barrels bore will actually start to melt away.


Whe shooting live rounds through a barrel you have the torch cutting gases acting on the inner surface of the barrel and as the barrel becomes hotter and hotter the surface, even if not visible to the naked eye, will ,after reaching a certain temperature, depending on what steel the barrel was made of, reach a point where the outer surface starts to melt away. . Any additional heat no matter how small will raise the temperature higher increasing a more rapid erosion or melting away of the outer skin.

MY point is, simply ,that the tremendous amount of extra heat generated to the barrel because of the gas system of the gas operated pistol heats it up far more quickly than the short-recoil Browning guns. Anyone who has fired an HK gas gun has observed this. All this additional heat quickly helps raise the bore temperature to the point where erosion is taking place far sooner than the slower heating up of the Brownind short recoil weapons. So for the same time period when firing and using the weapon, enables the hotter working gas gun to erode away the barrel at a far quicker rate.


There may be those who disagree with me but having seen what happens to rifle barrels when they become overheated and how they are sometimes ruined very, very quickly even with low round counts has led me to this belief.

In conclusion when firing a gas gun when the gun is overheated you must let it cool down or you risk ruining the barrel in short order. The Short -recoil guns will also heat up but at a far slower rate enabling the user to use them for longer periods of time before they too reach a point where you are destroying the throat of your barrel.

JeepDriver
February 17, 2003, 09:15 PM
I had a chance to put a couple of mags through a P7M8. It was a very impressive gun. Shot very well for me. But..... for my money, the Sig P239 is just as good of a gun. At less then half the price and every bit as accurate.

Handy
February 17, 2003, 10:43 PM
It's amazing what someone will concoct because they don't like something. In order:

1. Why did you cock it in the first place? You cock as a very short prelude to firing: 1, 2. You don't walk around with the cocker depressed for no reason. The actual firing gives away your position as well.

2. "Heavy squeeze cocking mechanism?" It takes one (1) pound of force to hold it. I can keep mine depressed with a pinky alone.

3. You prefer a gun that does not de-cock itself? Fine. How do these "natural tendencies" fail to happen with Glocks, 1911s and BHPs (also with light trigger, but no cocker.)? There certainly aren't any Glock NDs in police departments, are there?

4. What sort of kooky load development are you doing with 9mm?!!! This is not a .357 or 10mm. There are no good hunting loads! Which one of dozen normal propellants would cause a problem? Mine has never had a problem with dirty old Unique, for one.

4. Jacketed bullets. All polygonal bores are recommended for jacketed bullets. Jacketed 9mm bullets are available to reloaders for $45 per 1000, and are more accurate. Please.

5. The gun does heat up. Shorter barrel life? How many worn out HK barrels have you seen? This is about the same barrel used in the MP5. Don't they heat up? How quickly do they wear out?

You know what wears out barrels more quickly? Lands and grooves.

6. Let's talk gun prices. Is $600 a good price for a gun with half of its parts injection molded plastic? What IS value? Why does an FN cost 3 times that of the same gun made in Hungary?

7. I aquired mine because they made sense. I don't shoot any pistol faster or better.

8. So Browning couldn't get a gas system to work with Victorian age tooling? How shocking! I'll bet they couldn't build jet engines in 1910, either.

9. It's all steel, and weighs what other all steel, 4.1" barrel guns do. Compact doesn't mean less, just more space efficient.

10. ONE police department. Certainly no other gun (S&W, Glock, Beretta) has had broad ranging problems and had the ENTIRE purchase sent back. The ONE pistol in question was 20 years old when it failed. It was in NJ and they are still carrying them because their brand new SW99s jammed constantly.

BHP9
February 18, 2003, 08:32 AM
1. Why did you cock it in the first place? You cock as a very short prelude to firing: 1, 2. You don't walk around with the cocker depressed for no reason. The actual firing gives away your position as well.

Lets not imagine a perfect world with perfect people who operate perfecty under stress. Many people beside myself have seen very good reason to cock the weapon in preperation to fire and then found that the threat they felt was imminent suddenly could not be readily located. Then there was an immediate need to decock the weapon.

2. "Heavy squeeze cocking mechanism?" It takes one (1) pound of force to hold it. I can keep mine depressed with a pinky alone.

The two squeeze cockers I owned felt way heavier than one pound and years later, last summer to be exact, I had an opportunity to revisit the HK by firing yet another 13 shot model that a fellow shooter happened to pull out of his bag. The squeeze cocker was even worse than I had remembered it and was still heavy as hell, way more than a pound , I just wish I would have had my new Lyman digital trigger pull gage to test it with.

4. What sort of kooky load development are you doing with 9mm?!!! This is not a .357 or 10mm. There are no good hunting loads! Which one of dozen normal propellants would cause a problem? Mine has never had a problem with dirty old Unique, for one.

Not any cooky loads at all. As a matter of fact they were on the mild side. I had two loads with me that day and they were loaded with bullseye and Unique. The NRA specifically warned in their article that when they used Unique that the pistol gave excessive and violent recoil caused by premature opening of the slide which I found out to be right on the money when I tested the pistol myself. All this took place about 7 or 8 years ago so maybe HK changed the gas port size in the model that you bought. But I can say this much, the model that I tested definately had a big problem when using the wrong buring rate of powder.

You know what wears out barrels more quickly? Lands and grooves.

Perhaps I may be misuderstanding your statement but if you really mean what you have just posted I can assure you that many, many high power rifle barrels that have had thousands of hot loads shot through them only need often to only have a gunsmith set the barrel back by rechambering it for the exact same caliber. The eroided part of the chamber is eliminated and the same barrel with the same lands and groves is once again shooting like new. The downside is the barrel is now a little bit shorter in overall length. Usually as long as the owner has not damaged the muzzle by improper cleaning the lands and groves are just fine.

5. The gun does heat up. Shorter barrel life? How many worn out HK barrels have you seen? This is about the same barrel used in the MP5. Don't they heat up? How quickly do they wear out?

I think that if we had more HK's that were used in Bullseye competition where extreme accuarcy is an absolute must that we would find out very quickly wether my statement was valid or not.

What could be done to settle the question would be to conduct a rather simple test that although expensive would not be hard to accomplish.

What we would do is simply this. We would test two HK Squeeze cockers. Each gun would have a large amount of ammo, say about a minimum of 6,000 rounds fired out of both of them at 1 second intervals. One HK would have the gas port plugged so the slide would have to be manually cycled and the other would be left in its normal gas operated state. Both guns would have their barrel temperatures monitored and after the prescribed number of rounds were fired a throat eroison gage would be used to measure the throat erosion on both weapons. Also both weapons would be tested for accuracy before and after the test.

If my theory is correct the HK with the operating gas system would show more throat erosion. Then the next question would be how much accuracy was lost. It may turn out that the noticable loss of accuarcy would not take place untill a large amount of shooting was done. What would this mean to the average plinker. Prabably not much because few can afford to shoot their weapons that much with the expensive jacketed ammo that must be fired out of these guns. It would make a lot of difference to the person who competes in competition and needs all the accuracy they can get. But here is the fly in the ointment. Many shooting competitons other than Bullseye shooting do not need accurate pistols for the person to constantly win in. It is more of a game of quick reflexes and fast shooting times. Since the HK is not used in bullseye competiton where this loss of acccuracy would be very noticable most competitors in other shooting disiplines would notice little if any change in the performanc of their weapon.

Until such a torture test could be conducted we will never know for sure how much loss of barrel accuracy will happen to the HK compared to the short recoil pistols but I will say this much, all that extra heat radiating from the overheated gas system certainly does the barrel no good. I do not think anyone could dispute the fact that excess heat does a weapon no good in the short or long run and the tremendous amount of heat that HK guns display in such a short period of time is certainly not a strong point in the guns design. Trying to carry around a gun that is at the point of glowing red in a holster close to the body is probably one reason no major military army has ever adopted it for front line troops.

8. So Browning couldn't get a gas system to work with Victorian age tooling? How shocking! I'll bet they couldn't build jet engines in 1910, either.

This is not a flame but I am really smiling over this one. That victorian age tooling produced some of the most fabulous hand built firearms in the history of mankind. As a matter of fact I have had some of todays machinests tell me that they do not know how these people could have held such close tolerances when making these weapons without the aid of computers. Since we have so many example of their fabulous work there is no question that they did it. The only question is how? Too bad we do not still use some of this old victorian age machining , it sure beat some of the lousy weapons I have owned that were produced on some of todays CNC machines.

4. Jacketed bullets. All polygonal bores are recommended for jacketed bullets. Jacketed 9mm bullets are available to reloaders for $45 per 1000, and are more accurate. Please

Sorry but I only spend .01 cent apiece for my bullets and thats 4 1/2 times less than you quoted and if you shoot a lot this adds up very quickly to big bucks. As far as no lead in polygonal bores. I have fired thousands and thousands through polygonel bores and they shoot very accurately indeed. They actually lead up less than conventional rifling but must be cleaned more often because a build up of leading could cause a blow up.

lunde
February 18, 2003, 09:53 AM
Well, I guess us "HK P7 owners" will continue to enjoy our obviously-unsafe, inferior-gas-operated, hard-to-keep-cocked, short-lived, too-hot-to-hold bundles of joy that can shoot only jacketed bullets due to their polygonal rifling. :banghead:

tetchaje1
February 18, 2003, 10:46 AM
BHP9 is pulling his information out of thin air.

The arguments are extremely weak, and show an obvious lack of understanding of the firing mechanism of the P7 series pistols.

Try this on for size. The cocking mechanism on the P7 takes 13lbs force to cock the pistol, but due to an ingenious series of springs, less than 4lbs to hold the weapon cocked. Some people have reported numbers much less than this. Besides, 4lbs is probably less than many people grip their guns anyway to prevent the dreaded Glock limp-wrist.

The softening temperature for the steels used in the P7 are far beyond anything that any person could hold onto without burning their hand off. Raising the temperature of the gun 100 degrees won't change the properties of the metal at all. The greatest factor in reducing barrel life is friction. Varmint rifle barrels wear out faster not because of the heat, but because of the friction of a 4000fps projectile repeatedly being forced down the barrel. Heat is only the byproduct of friction in this case, unlike the P7 which has heat build-up because of the gas operating system.

Anybody who says that the P7 gas-operating system makes it more prone to failures obviously hasn't shot one. If he has, he never cleaned it, and therefore it screws the argument up anyway because they are liable to slam fires and burst with even Glocks if they abuse them this way.

The police officer in NJ did have a pistol that was over 20 years old. How many police departments have trusted their pistols for that long without replacing them? I would think that this is a testament to the longevity and quality of construction of the P7 series pistols. I don't see too many other PDs out there using guns from the 70's. I agree that the NJ state police were in need of an upgrade -- their pistols were wornout with decades of reliable service. The only mistake that they made was to not buy more P7s.

Need I go on?

I think that I'll stop here (for now).

Handy
February 18, 2003, 11:01 AM
It should be noted that the crappy P7 has been a widely issued police and military weapon since the late seventies in Europe and the US. Does anyone remember 4 years ago when a flood of 15 year old de-milled guns came on the market. They must have never been fired, due to theories about barrel degradation.

These are not new, untested guns. It's a design older than the G17 and almost as old as the Sig Classic. It is based on a WWII RIFLE design, as are other HK pistols. How many rifles are built on a tilt barrel, recoil system? Zero.


Q: What would happen IF a P7 lost a great deal of it's out-of-the-box accuracy?

A: It would be about as (or more) accurate than a Hi-Power is new.



Sour grapes.

CZ-75
February 18, 2003, 01:34 PM
Does anyone think they can disagree w/o taking/making it personally?

The P7 is only a gun, and it has its flaws.

Some may not have all their info straight and may even have a vendetta against the P7, but the weapon's own points ought to be enough prima facie to sell itself.

I've known I wanted one for a while, and I've heard nothing to be disuaded.

Cost and durability of the finish seem to be the worst points that I hear, probably making the pistol a "safe queen," for my purposes.

dude
February 18, 2003, 01:50 PM
Cost is high but I have never found finish to be an issue. My last M8 was LNIB (with B) with three mags for only $750 though.

The FACT that that do break and can be expensive to fix are their only downside for me.

lunde
February 18, 2003, 01:51 PM
CZ-75, you wrote:The P7 is only a gun, and it has its flaws.Quite right. There is no perfect handgun. Everything has its own strengths and weaknesses. What's important is to be able to know the strengths and weaknesses, so that one can take advantage of the strengths and work around the weaknesses.

Poohgyrr
February 18, 2003, 02:13 PM
I got to shoot an M8 back about '90 and like it quite a bit. But for the money I'd rather buy a GP Comp and a case of ammo.

If someone gave me one I'd probably keep it just because it's too good to sell.

:D

Tamara
February 18, 2003, 02:57 PM
Pilot, sure, it's a good gun, but just explaining to young natedog here about the CDI of P7s or anything else exotic. NIH=cool, and "Iwannacoolgun".

Kinda like Les Baers, right?

Tamara
February 18, 2003, 03:01 PM
Quite right. There is no perfect handgun. Everything has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Sshhh! Don't tell Handy! Otherwise he might figure out why many days my P7 sits in the safe in favor of a 1911, revolver or Glock... ;) (...and some days it doesn't. I can't figure out why some people have decided that 'The screwdriver is the perfect tool for every job. I have thrown out all my hammers, pliers, and wrenches and filled my toolbox with screwdrivers!' ;) )

AK103K
February 18, 2003, 03:35 PM
I think the biggest problem with the P7 is ignorance of what it is and what it does or can do. Its very foreign to a lot of shooters, especially those set in their ways. I find you either love it or hate it, theres not to many sitting on the fence. I've heard a number of people bitch about them only to learn they never fired one and based their opinons on what they "heard". I still personally believe that if your going to carry this pistol, you need to "only" carry this pistol. It takes a little time to get used to the cocker and to make sure your in the P7 state of mind.
The issue about cocking and uncocking doesnt make any sense to me. When the gun was drawn it was cocked, everytime. If you do anything other, your training for disaster. The only time it was uncocked was to reholster or unload. Once the initial "squeeze" is made, it takes no effort to keep the pistol cocked if you keep a normal firing grip on it. The hard thing for "non" P7 people to do is to remember to cock the gun. Most people who "tried" to shoot mine when I first got it bitched something was wrong with it, and its because they didnt cock it. This can be a big plus if someone who doesnt know the gun should get it away from you. Its also a great feature if the gun should be dropped, as soon as it leaves your hand its uncocked.
I've never heard of problems with Unique. I always used Unique in my 9mm reloads and never had any kind of trouble with it and the P7. My reloads are not hot but cycle 99% of the guns I've shot them in, the Glocks being the offenders. I've shot more than "a couple" of thousands of rounds out of my pistol and never had function or accuracy problems with it. I always cleaned the gas port and piston each time I fired it. I think the lead issue is more for the gas system more than anything, although I've been "hearing" a lot of complaints from Glock shooters, or theres a discussion going on anyways.
The heating issue I think is being blown out of proportion. The early guns, didnt have a heat shield and the plastic one was added due to complaints, or so I read. The gun gets hot cause the gas works are right at that point where you'd notice. I never noticed it was unbareably hot after a couple of fast mags, but it did get warm. I 'm sure you could get it hot enough to annoy you if you tried, but then again, you can make AK handguards catch fire if you work at it. :)
The P7 is one of the more accurate pistols I've ever shot out of the box. Like most HK's I have or have had, they almost get boring in this department. Its almost like you have to work at shooting bad. I guess if you want to nit pick about the size of a group, thats up to you, but to me, its just a pistol and if I can reasonably hit something at 25 yards, I'm happy. I know my groups aren't going to be the 1.5" that most of the gun writers claim to be the norm(from every gun they shoot), I'd be happy if they are 1.75 or so :). (Really, I'd be happy if they were 6" at this point, I'm more interested in "combat" accuracy than gnawing a hole out of the center of a bull, not that I wouldnt like to be able to.)
Like I said before, I got rid of mine (now I see it was a weak moment) because it was getting to pricey to carry and I could get two other (so called) wonder guns for it. I wish now that I'd kept it. I would now probably not carry it as I prefer the 1911's, and dont think switching back and forth is a good idea. This debate, I think, will be one of those endless love it or hate it type things. If you want to bitch about an HK pistol, why not pick on the VP-70.
Boy, talk about UGLY and useless!:D

Tamara
February 18, 2003, 03:54 PM
If you want to bitch about an HK pistol, why not pick on the VP-70.

You mean the "Hi-Point & Koch"? ;) :D

AK103K
February 18, 2003, 04:03 PM
Thats the one :)

Actually, its a well made, but goofy pistol. My buddy has one. Not one of the ones with the "special" stock though.

Handy
February 18, 2003, 04:34 PM
Tamara,

You really aren't giving credance to my P9S fetish.

akanotken
February 19, 2003, 08:06 AM
AK103 wrote:

"I always cleaned the gas port and piston each time I fired it."

So what is your best 'double tap' with this gun? :neener:

Put me down in the "didn't like the trigger" camp. Found the reach to be long, and the very short take up undoubtably had me sending rounds a little bit early. I never did really get used to it.

I borrowed one for a week, from a really nice friend, and worried I'd fall in love with it. I like the pistol's concept, but shooting it did nothing for me. Maybe the differences from my other pistols were just to much for my small brain?

AK103K
February 19, 2003, 02:29 PM
So what is your best 'double tap' with this gun?
A tad slow, but it smelled pretty each shot :)

twoblink
February 20, 2003, 02:29 AM
I'm in the "my grip doesn't start out the same as when I shoot it" camp. The triggers on it (like most HK triggers) suck.

They are too expensive.

I wanted one, until I shot Skunks. The I didn't anymore..

Tamara
February 20, 2003, 07:29 AM
The triggers on it (like most HK triggers) suck.

Uh, whatever. :scrutiny:

What do you know about good triggers, anyway? You own a Steyr for pete's sake. ;) :p

cslinger
February 20, 2003, 09:56 AM
Uh, whatever.

What do you know about good triggers, anyway? You own a Steyr for pete's sake.



Ouch. Now now let's be nice.:D Careful next thing you know you will rehash that Steyr is a ticking timebomb ready to kill all in a 100' radius thread.

As for the P7 trigger, I have never shot one, but did dry fire Tamara's and I seem to remember it being a pretty darn good feeling trigger and it took no effort to keep the squeeze cocker pushed in. I am, however, not exactly a trigger pull expert or anything.

Chris

Tamara
February 20, 2003, 03:46 PM
Steyrs do have good-feeling triggers...

...when compared to a Glock, Sigma, USP or VP70. ;) :neener:

AK103K
February 20, 2003, 07:36 PM
Ahhh, but nothing beats a nice 1911 trigger.:)

Tamara
February 21, 2003, 11:35 AM
I know that's right. :cool:

Tamara
February 21, 2003, 11:57 PM
Or should I call you "Wild Romanian"?

Anyhow, on to business:

MY point is, simply ,that the tremendous amount of extra heat generated to the barrel because of the gas system of the gas operated pistol heats it up far more quickly than the short-recoil Browning guns. Anyone who has fired an HK gas gun has observed this. All this additional heat quickly helps raise the bore temperature to the point where erosion is taking place far sooner than the slower heating up of the Brownind short recoil weapons.

This is incorrect.

First, the P7 is not "gas operated"; it is blowback-operated with a gas delay.

Secondly, a 9mm catridge with X grains of powder is always going to generate Y units of heat when that powder combusts, whether it goes off in a short-recoil gun, a gas-delayed blowback gun, a electrically operated gatling, or on your livingroom floor. There is no special "heat magnifier" in a P7. Simple, right? X grains powder generating Y degrees heat. X, Y. The reason the squeeze-cocker "heats up far more quickly" is that you are feeling heat that is tapped AWAY from the barrel by the gas port and into the frame above your trigger finger where you can feel it, instead of all being retained in the barrel like in a short-recoil gun. If anything, the P7s frame acts as a heat sink tapping heat away from the barrel and causing less barrel heating than in a short-recoil gun. At pistol velocities this is entirely negligable, but (at least in theory) the gas gun could have a longer barrel life.

BHP9
February 22, 2003, 09:40 PM
Secondly, a 9mm catridge with X grains of powder is always going to generate Y units of heat when that powder combusts, whether it goes off in a short-recoil gun, a gas-delayed blowback gun, a electrically operated gatling, or on your livingroom floor. There is no special "heat magnifier" in a P7. Simple, right? X grains powder generating Y degrees heat. X, Y. The reason the squeeze-cocker "heats up far more quickly" is that you are feeling heat that is tapped AWAY from the barrel by the gas port and into the frame above your trigger finger where you can feel it, instead of all being retained in the barrel like in a short-recoil gun. If anything, the P7s frame acts as a heat sink tapping heat away from the barrel and causing less barrel heating than in a short-recoil gun. At pistol velocities this is entirely negligable, but (at least in theory) the gas gun could have a longer barrel life.


In reality the Gas is being trapped inside the gun to hold the slide closed. It is not being all blown out the end of the barrel. The simple result is that heat builds up from the trapped gas at a phenonminal rate because although both Short recoil guns and Gas guns shoot the same powder with the same thermal heat units the gas gun is holding some of the power gases inside the pistol for a far longer period of time.

In reality, not theory, the Gas gun holds some of the gases( heat) in the gun and that contributes to rapid heating of not only the frame but the barrel and the entire weapon

So basically there is indeed a heat magnifier and its called the pistols gas system.

Handy
February 22, 2003, 11:03 PM
A load of crap.

Gas pressure and heat go hand in hand. Once the pressure begins to drop the heat is absorbed by the gas. The gas pressure drops as soon as the bullet clears the bore in any design. At that moment the gas expands, temps and pressure drop and the piston pumps the cooled gas back out. There are no valves in the system so the pressure and temperature drops evenly.

What is hilarious is that you're insisting that a barrel piston system, which has more internal volume than a standard barrel, could reach a higher temperature. If anything, the opposite situation exists as gas is bled off into the piston, lowering total pressure, muzzle velocity and temperature.

Dobe
February 22, 2003, 11:20 PM
BHP9,
The P7 gets hot, because is it releasing gas into the frame, not because it is holding gas in longer. A gas gun's barrel should not wear any faster than one of a short recoil.

I love Brownings designs, but I'd have a P7 tomorrow, if I could afford one.

Tamara
February 23, 2003, 12:51 AM
It would really help your case if you had at least examined the operating system of some of these pistols you so enjoy pontificating about...

BHP9
February 23, 2003, 09:07 AM
What is hilarious is that you're insisting that a barrel piston system, which has more internal volume than a standard barrel, could reach a higher temperature. If anything, the opposite situation exists as gas is bled off into the piston, lowering total pressure, muzzle velocity and temperature


If what Handy and Tamara says is accurate then the HK pistol would stay cooler after firing 50 rounds quickly on a summer day, not hotter, as in reality it does.

.Initiallly Handy, you are correct, the gas system does indeed act as a heat sink but only for a short period of time.

Have you ever watched a steel being heated in a mill or being welded on in a repair job. What happens is that even when heating the end of a piece of bar stock the heat travels from one end of the bar stock to the other and the entire piece is soon glowing red. Much the same thing happens in the HK. Every part that is heated affects the other parts in the gun. The gas system is not seperate and floating about in a self insulated state. They are all connected and heat travels between the connected parts. The gas system itself keeps things cooking inside the pistol and this why the pistol gets so hot after only firing a few rounds of ammo. Just as in the piece of bar stock it all does not happen instantly but starts to build up and build up very quickly.

A more simple example: Have you ever observed how fast the inside temperature of your stoves oven at home drops off when you open the door to check on what is cooking inside. When you keep the door closed the temperature rises very quickly. The exact same thing is taking place inside the HK as opposed to the short recoil guns. When the heat is trapped it builds up the temperature very quickly. If this were not happening, once again the HK would be the cooler weapon when firing it quickly and for long periods of time. And of course it is not.


[B]The only real controversy is simply how much heat does it take before it starts to shorten barrel life and internal parts life and this can only be resolved by expensive and time consuming testing.

To further complicate matters not all people use their weapons in the same way. Some people fire a few rounds and let their HK cool down and some blast away until the pistol glows red hot. The way the pistol is operated will also contribute to how long the barrel and the weapons internal parts last.

Dobe
February 23, 2003, 09:48 AM
BHP9,
by the following logic of what you said, the P7's barrel should be cooler, because it is diverting gases away from it.

You wrote:
"A more simple example: Have you ever observed how fast the inside temperature of your stoves oven at home drops off when you open the door to check on what is cooking inside. When you keep the door closed the temperature rises very quickly. The exact same thing is taking place inside the HK as opposed to the short recoil guns. When the heat is trapped it builds up the temperature very quickly. "

Now, I know what you meant by this, but in reality, the gun does get hotter than a Browning design, but the barrel is not eroding any quicker. It is the frame that is heating up more than other guns, not the barrel. I belive this discussion was over barrel life.

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