They've finally done it... IPSC is outlawed


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trooper
June 22, 2004, 09:17 AM
... well, at least it might be soon over here.

A couple days ago a commission made up of several federal and state officials witnessed a major German IPSC competition and declared afterwards that IPSC will most likely not be recognized as a legitimate shooting sport.

The background is that according to Germany's new (april 2003) firearms legislation only recognized shooting disciplines are allowed. With IPSC no longer being a legitimate sport, IPSC shooters will no longer be able to prove a legitimate "need" for a firearm and therefore will not be issued a firearms permit on that base.

We don't know any further details yet, so I have no idea if there's still hope for us. If it turns out that this decision actually becomes a law I'm pretty positive that some people and associations will sue against it. The Firearms Act clearly states that the authorities may only restrict shooting disciplines that are deemed to pose a clear and present danger to public safety.

The problem is that among our bureaucrats IPSC is widely regarded as "combat shooting" which is illegal for civilians under German law (which is why IDPA was never legal over here).

We have to convince them (or prove in court) that IPSC is nothing but a high-end, dynamic, serious and safe sport.

Oh well, I just thought you might be interested :) Wish us luck...


Regards,

Trooper

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Delmar
June 22, 2004, 09:46 AM
Trooper, I wish you the best of luck in turning the politicians into converts. Maybe invite them out to a shooting clinic for the basics? As America seems to very gradually slide into a permission state rather than a right to keep and bear, I see the same possibilities of this happening in the US. I truly hope not.

trooper
June 22, 2004, 10:02 AM
Nah... can't convert those politicos (not that I want one of them on our range anyway :D ). The only way out is to take the fight to court. I believe that not only common sense but also the law is actually on our side. The problem is that this won't do us much good if we meet the wrong judges.

Note: I've never shot IPSC so far (yet) but I am convinced that outlawing a popular and growing sport just because some bureaucrats don't like it would be a devastating blow to the whole German shooting community and could set a dangerous judicial precedence.


Regards,

Trooper

Delmar
June 22, 2004, 10:07 AM
I certainly understand your fears about the situation. Might I suggest you make haste and try your hand at IPSC before its gone forever? As to letting the vermin on your range, you just never know. Some of them might just like it and change their views. Of course, you might have to hold your nose until they warm up to it:D

Nightfall
June 22, 2004, 10:39 AM
Good luck. You're welcome to come on over here and shoot all the ISPC you'd like! :)

MrMurphy
June 22, 2004, 10:45 AM
Remind them who was in power the last time German bureaucrats started banning guns, and what happened afterwards.

trooper
June 22, 2004, 10:47 AM
Yeah... that I might do, thanks... :)

I'm just mightily PO'ed that my country is going down the drain so fast. This is a big one, and we really gotta win it.



Regards,

Trooper

0007
June 22, 2004, 11:02 AM
This attitude toward the shooting sports on their part is probably in response to some point in the new EU "constipuketion". No self-respecting socialist ( a new oxymoron) wants the serfs to have any way of resisting their dictates.

Jeeper
June 22, 2004, 11:10 AM
Trooper,

I have a buddy that shoots USPSA here in Houston that works for the German consolate. He always tells us what a pain it is anyway to shoot matches there. He said he ususally goes to austria to shoot. It is a pain for him eventhough he has a license to carry a gun due to his job. Plainly ridiculous.

K-Romulus
June 22, 2004, 11:24 AM
the same thing happened in the UK, IIRC, just before the handgun ban. So-called "combat shooting" was deemed antisocial or something.

Even here in the US, it is illegal for "civilians" :rolleyes: to shoot at any target resembling a human in the state of Massachusetts (this includes silhouettes).:rolleyes:

BigG
June 22, 2004, 11:26 AM
The problem is that among our bureaucrats IPSC is widely regarded as "combat shooting" ...

Um, I've heard that from IPSC shooters here in the USA, too. Hey you don't want to go up against Rod Leatham. He's a bad@ss. :rolleyes:

trooper
June 22, 2004, 11:40 AM
Yeah, German firearms legislation is an absolute PITA.

I know some people myself who go to Austria and Switzerland in order to get some defensive training. I would do that myself but unfortunately I live right on the opposite side of Germany... :)

0007, this has got nothing to do with the new EU constitution (no matter how bad this is :) ), it goes back way further.

Imagine that, Germany used to be a rather gun-friendly country. If you grew up in a rural area it was quite common for kids to have their own .22, and grandpa would take you out in the woods and teach you how to shoot his old wartime Mauser 98k.

It all changed in the '70s when Germany was hit by civil unrest and domestic left-wing terrorism. Firearms ownership became heavily restricted because authorities feared that RAF (Red Army Faction) terrorists would obtain weapons from gunshops and seek out professional training courses(obviously, they proved to be wrong).

By the beginning of the '90s the Green Party and the so-called peace movement had risen, and more and more people felt that the world would be a safer place if only the cops had guns. So most of the population approved when the new Firearms Act tightened its grip on gun owners once more after the school shooting in Erfurt a few years ago.

Still, a lot of people hunt and shoot in Germany. There's a gun club in almost every small town - who mostly shoot nothing but olympic small-bore and air guns. It is highly politically incorrect to shoot full-bore guns, or (even worse) participate in dynamic shooting sports. Hunters are coming under attack by animal-rights groups, too (mind you, we have a red-green government right now).

This, in short, is how my country went down the often cited "slippery slope". Don't let it happen to you.


Trooper

Correia
June 22, 2004, 01:02 PM
That well and truely sucks. I hope you beat this.

Only in the mind of a socialist bureaucrat could grown men in spandex and football cleats with compensated race guns be considered "combat training".

dance varmint
June 22, 2004, 02:14 PM
Pretty foreseeable outcome of last year's law. Trim your moustaches to the proper width there, Germans.

sturmruger
June 22, 2004, 02:16 PM
Trooper I hope you guys can put up a good fight. The antis love to slowly chip away at our rights. Too bad they didn't outlaw trap shooting while they were at. Then you would have all those shotgun guys chomping at the bit to help you fight the gun grabbers.

SWMAN
June 22, 2004, 02:29 PM
What I don't understand, whether in Germany or America, how can people think that restricting citizens from arming themselves with guns is going to protect society from terrorists or criminals? The more armed citizens you have the more likely terrorists will think twice about attacking or at the very least they could end up dead at the hands of armed citizens before the cops arrive. Go figure!!!!!

LoneStranger
June 22, 2004, 02:34 PM
Trooper,
Would strongly suggest that the people making this decision be brought up before the public and forced to describe in minute detail exactly how they came to THEIR decision. Then attack their reasoning process at each and every point.

Clowns like this get away with their nonsense because it seems like everyone accepts that they have some lock on being correct at all times. Only when you question them in minute detail do you find how little they might actually know and then you can expose their political agenda.

How to do it in Germany I can't tell you.

Best of luck and fate.

griz
June 22, 2004, 02:57 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there a way we can find out which shooting sports are allowed? The reason I ask is I have heard that SASS has a following over there and was wondering if "cowboy IPSC" is considered acceptable.

Thanks, Griz

Treylis
June 22, 2004, 03:13 PM
The reason I ask is I have heard that SASS has a following over there and was wondering if "cowboy IPSC" is considered acceptable.

I've heard that cowboy stuff is real popular over in Germany, as well... gah, I hate playing "I'm more PC than you" when it comes to this kinda stuff.

Werewolf
June 22, 2004, 03:26 PM
I've heard that cowboy stuff is real popular over in Germany, as well... gah, I hate playing "I'm more PC than you" when it comes to this kinda stuff.

I shoot in both CAS and IPSC.

Other than the weapons used there isn't for all practical purposes a whole lot of difference. The CAS guys are a bit more laid back and into the fun aspect than the IPSC guys who seem to be really really tense a lot and hardcore into the competitive aspect. Both competitions involve running and shooting at various targets in various locations.

If IPSC is banned I imagine it won't be long before CAS is banned too - afterall the gubmint can't have a John Wayne type deciding "I aint'a gonna hit you pard - [pause for dramatic effect] Like hell I'm not!" can they?

Standing Wolf
June 22, 2004, 06:37 PM
I believe that not only common sense but also the law is actually on our side.

So? You've got socialist politicians, nicht wahr?

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
June 22, 2004, 06:54 PM
I feel for you oppressed European folks but, as a practical matter, there is absolutely nothing I can do to help you. Just thought you'd want to know. Any way, good luck to youse people.

trooper
June 22, 2004, 07:23 PM
Thanks for your moral support, guys!!

The funny thing is, CAS (or western shooting, as it's called over here) actually got recognized as a legitimate sport. This might have something to do with the fact that the rulebook has been altered over here to suit Germany's legal situation, but I doubt it. It's still guys running along a course and blasting away AFAIK.

I suppose grown-up men in cowboy dresses who dig shooting old sixguns and lever-actions just look less threatening than someone who empties his tricked-out autoloader's 20-round mag into five targets within seconds...

Anyway, as I said I'm sure that this will not be the last word spoken on this matter. IPSC has become quite popular among German shooters, and I sincerely hope that all major shooting associations realize now that the gov't follows a "Divide et impera"-policy.

Let's just see what happens in court...


Regards,

Trooper

mete
June 22, 2004, 09:49 PM
Certainly IPSC started out as training and practice for defensive shooting but has evolved into a sport . But if it is banned then also others should be banned for the same reasons ; fencing, biathlon, pentalthlon, javelin etc.

Werewolf
June 22, 2004, 10:01 PM
But if it is banned then also others should be banned for the same reasons ; fencing, biathlon, pentalthlon, javelin etc. And what - pray tell - makes you believe the powers that be in Deutschland are not already considering that? Hmmmmmm????:evil:

MrMurphy
June 22, 2004, 10:23 PM
I don't know about Germany, but COWBOYS don't wear dresses... COWGIRLS do. :)

Jay Kominek
June 23, 2004, 12:37 AM
I don't know about Germany, but COWBOYS don't wear dresses... COWGIRLS do. :)
mmm, cowgirls.

rboudrie
June 23, 2004, 02:20 AM
An earlier post states:

Even here in the US, it is illegal for "civilians" to shoot at any target resembling a human in the state of Massachusetts (this includes silhouettes).

The above is a popular misconception based in a partial reading of a law.

The real story is covered in an article I posted to www.boudrie.com two years ago:

Humanoid Targets in Massachusetts
A Clarification
Rob Boudrie, May 10 2002

I have recently received questions about news reports that the United States Court of Appeals for the first circuit recently upheld the Massachusetts General Law which prohibits shooting at human targets, and how it will affect USPSA/IPSC matches in this state.
These comments are offered with the usual disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, and this does not constitute any manner commentary is not "legal advice."

The short answer is It will have not mandate any changes in our match procedures.

Here's why it doesn't effect our matches

Chapter 180 of 1998 included a provision which mandates that a club which holds a "Class A License to Carry Firearms" must prohibit the firing at "targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties."

The relevant facts:

Nothing in Masschusetts Law requires a club to apply for or obtain a License to Carry Firearms. (Any Massachusetts resident who wishes to purchase or posess a handgun must, however, obtain such a license - but that is not a "club" license).

No USPSA Affiliated clubs in Massachusetts hold a Massachusetts Club License to Carry Firearms. Since the provision of Chapter 180 pertaining to humanoid targets applies only to Clubs holding such a license, the prohibition does not impact any member clubs.

I am not aware of any Massachusetts club not affiliated with USPSA which has obtained a club license to carry firearms.

What if it did?
Even if Massachusetts residents were prohibited from using our primary target, I would not support a "least common demonimator" approach for the United States Region.

Interesting Article

The Findlaw website has an interesting article on this decision.

Rob Boudrie

RevDisk
June 23, 2004, 06:17 AM
Best of luck, you're probably going to need it.

Re the crackdown on weapons in Germany, like the RAF actually needed to buy their toys from gunstores that kept records? As opposed to buying cheaper non-crippled toys from Lebanon and other third world countries.

Keep up the good fight! Remind your politicians not to forget the past.

trooper
June 23, 2004, 02:56 PM
No, they can't really outlaw biathlon because its extremely popular over here among TV audiences. Successful biathletes have a huge fan community, and the armed forces, border police and customs service have their own biathlon teams.

In the first draft of the new Firearms Act they included a section that outlawed all shooting sports in which the competitors travel along a course... until some smartass in the Ministry of the Interior said, "Um... I think we're just about to kill biathlon... can't do that."

So they just outlawed shooting on the move instead (which is why dynamic shooting events are... a little less dynamic in Germany :) )

I don't know about Germany, but COWBOYS don't wear dresses... COWGIRLS do.

Bah... semantics :)


Regards,

Trooper

LoneStranger
June 23, 2004, 07:10 PM
Bah... semantics

Which only applies until you try to kiss one!!:D

Always been told that the devil is in the details.

twoblink
June 24, 2004, 04:18 AM
2 minutes of Photoshop later..

Someone will have to correct me as far as my German...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1079438

Hey Germany, Give us your guns and your women and you can keep your bureaucracy!

He who knows nothing about the past is doomed to repeat it..


:cuss:

Stand_Watie
June 24, 2004, 07:17 AM
I may be wrong about this twoblink (I'm sure trooper will correct me if I am), but I think it might be illegal to display that poster in Germany.

Lochaber
June 24, 2004, 09:42 AM
Luckily, twoblink lives in a somewhat free country (I think) and the German and French authorities have no way of prosecuting him over it. And they have tried in the past over similar things.

Loch.

PS: and to think that people in a different forum were trying to convince me to go to IPSC matches in Germany to prove to me how superior they are to the US matches. Heh.

Stand_Watie
June 24, 2004, 09:53 AM
Luckily, twoblink lives in a somewhat free country (I think) and the German and French authorities have no way of prosecuting him over it. And they have tried in the past over similar things.

No, I wasn't concerned that twoblink was in danger of prosecution, I was just pointing out the irony of how lack of a first amendment can be used to squelch opposition to a loss of another "right" (priviledge, I guess in Germany). I didn't think Trooper would be printing that poster up and passing it out.

trooper
June 24, 2004, 02:28 PM
Oh, it's not that bad... swastikas are only outlawed under certain circumstances. Nobody can charge you for presenting a historical photo.

You may not, however, sew a nazi patch on your jacket, raise your arm and march down Main Street over here...

Oh BTW, did you use Babelfish for that translation? :) :) The closest thing would be "Ich unterst├╝tze die Entwaffnung" which means "I support disarmament", We don't really have a word for gun control in German.


Regards,

Trooper

twoblink
June 24, 2004, 11:39 PM
I'm soooooo waiting for a German to come arrest me!! :neener: :neener:

I remember reading that the traffic cams that were giving people tickets, people got upset and started raising their arms every time they saw a camera, and that is now deemed illegal.

"It's illegal to RAISE YOUR ARM..."

I don't know how to translate that in German, but the statement is so rediculous!! And Germans make fun of the China human rights???

And btw..

Since this is THR (a server in America) and this is the internet... Basically... telling me something is illegal (maybe) in Germany is
ONLY GOING TO ENCOURAGE ME TO POST MORE HITLER POSTERS.

If I were the German people, I'd have a swastika in the Parliment building to remind people what can happen when government gets out of control... oops, too late... :barf:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns..."

We don't really have a word for gun control in German.

Wasn't it called "Get in the showers!!" ??? :what: :what: :what:

My friend Jewish friend said his dad told him that, and for him to never forget..never again... How quickly we forget history..

As you can see, this touches off a spark as far as I'm concerned..

Europe has gone to hell in a handbasket..

They remove the death penalty but raising your arm is illegal. I'm not sure if 2nd graders with no logic are running the government, or if the government needs a few Abrams rolling in on them again to remind them tyranny should have no grasp when rights of the people are concerned...

Stand_Watie
June 25, 2004, 01:15 AM
Since this is THR (a server in America) and this is the internet... Basically... telling me something is illegal (maybe) in Germany is
ONLY GOING TO ENCOURAGE ME TO POST MORE HITLER POSTERS

I hope I didn't give you the impression that I thought that you or anyone else who is not physically in Germany is bound by German law. I meant no such thing.

trooper
June 25, 2004, 06:06 AM
Go ahead... that's fine with me... :)

twoblink
June 25, 2004, 06:13 AM
Stand_Watie, you meant no such thing nor did I take it as so..

It's just that::

If whatever you are doing is pissing off the government, then you know you are doing what is right, and just :D

cadfael
June 25, 2004, 07:25 AM
Hmm... How about this argument? The current IPSC world champion is Eric Grauffel, who is French. By banning IPSC in Germany then they are conceding defeat to the French.

The argument might work in America, though.

Adam

Stand_Watie
June 25, 2004, 07:50 AM
Lol twoblink, that's the spirit.

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