OH please someone tell me whats wrong with the picture! Unbeleivable (pic)


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Das Pferd
June 23, 2004, 01:44 AM
http://home.comcast.net/~ecksjay/GTFO.jpg

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.45FMJoe
June 23, 2004, 01:47 AM
Interesting...I at least hope the camera is sitting on a shelf, not being held by bubba.

I hope.

nico
June 23, 2004, 01:47 AM
all I can say is I hope he's using a tripod and there's a concrete wall behind it.:rolleyes:

Black Majik
June 23, 2004, 01:48 AM
Almost dead cameraperson?

1) Finger on trigger
2) Pointing at something not willing to destroy
3) Gun is loaded with JHP.
4) Shooter is a moron that needs to see a Eddie Eagle video
5) No Eye Protection
6) No Ear protection

Nick1911
June 23, 2004, 01:49 AM
I do hope that was a re-load with no power or primer...

Still... I don't like looking at it

Nick

Oleg Volk
June 23, 2004, 01:55 AM
Expendable (cheap) camera on a tripod, most likely.

winstonsmith
June 23, 2004, 01:58 AM
If anyone is holding the camera:

I've done some pretty stupid things, but... wow...

45R
June 23, 2004, 02:00 AM
Geeeeeeeez..................this one has me speechless. :banghead: :uhoh:

Nick1911
June 23, 2004, 02:02 AM
Expendable (cheap) camera on a tripod, most likely.

It was taken with a Fuji Film FinePix A210 on April 20th of this year.

Nick

iamhistory
June 23, 2004, 02:07 AM
2) Pointing at something not willing to destroy

He he........how do you know he's NOT? Could be someone behind that camera who was just taking pics of the guys girlfriend or something.:what:

Sberk1
June 23, 2004, 03:09 AM
Shouldn't somebody as smart as this guy be hold the pistol sideways??

BluesBear
June 23, 2004, 03:11 AM
I see nothing wrong with the photo at all.
The caption could be better though.

This is EXACTLY what every burglar should expect to see EVERY time they break into someones home.

When someone invades your home you don't have time to toss on eyes & ears.
And if I confront a badguy in my home, my finger WILL be on the trigger and there will be a hollow point (or a Glaser) in the chamber.


As to the pointing of a loaded gun at a camera. :rolleyes: That's just one of the reasons they invented tripods, timers and cable releases as well as mirrors.

ScottS
June 23, 2004, 09:14 AM
From a technical point of view, I'm impressed. I could never get the lighting and focus on my Digicam just right to see the actual JHP.

Beyond the technical details, there aren't enough facts know to make a judgement.

Scott

cracked butt
June 23, 2004, 09:33 AM
Not 100% sure if he's sitting or standing and leaning way forward, but it looks like if someone were to get behind him and give him a little shove, he'd be sent sprawling.

Nick1911
June 23, 2004, 09:44 AM
From a technical point of view, I'm impressed. I could never get the lighting and focus on my Digicam just right to see the actual JHP.

I agree. This was shot at 9:15 at night, with flash, and a shutter speed of 1\60 (:eek: seems kind of fast...) with an apature of 3.2. I guess settings make sence - with a flash anyway.

Nick

shep854
June 23, 2004, 09:50 AM
WHEW! Even though I'm looking at an image on my computer screen, it gives me the willies!:what:

Hawkman
June 23, 2004, 10:01 AM
Ok, I'll bite Nick1911. How do you know all the details?

chevrofreak
June 23, 2004, 10:09 AM
I've taken a pic of a JHP down the barrel of my Glock, but I first removed the striker, which isnt hard at all to do.

cordex
June 23, 2004, 10:22 AM
Properly done, nothing wrong at all.
Improperly done, dangerous.

Nick1911
June 23, 2004, 10:36 AM
Ok, I'll bite Nick1911. How do you know all the details?

Easy. I read the EXIF (http://www.exif.org/) data.

Most modern mainstream digital camera's record information about the settings and the camera in the header of the image file. Sometimes this gets destroyed in the editing process, but this one wasn't. Various programs can read and interpret the data... I use this one (http://www.stuffware.co.uk/photostudio/) . EXIF data can reveal some interesting things, once you know it exists.

Nick

aguyindallas
June 23, 2004, 11:08 AM
The debate is that this may or may not have been dangerous, depending on the set up which we can't obviously see.

One fact still remains:

The bore looks squeeky clean! :neener:

sturmruger
June 23, 2004, 11:11 AM
As long as there was no person on the other side of the camera I see nothing at all wrong with this pic. In fact it is one of the more interesting photos I have seen in a long time.

laynlow
June 23, 2004, 11:19 AM
He has a poor grip on the gun, OTT nothing.

Baba Louie
June 23, 2004, 11:19 AM
My dear old Dad taught me to aim at the COM, NOT THE HEAD (or specifically the target's left eye) since they're smaller and more prone to movement... but it's quite an effective photo, no red pupil, clear focus of all items within range, details, etc.
I agree with BluesBear on the caption, but that's just me being a nitpicker. Foul language (implied) is just soo tacky, doncha think? :rolleyes:
It does tend to look like about a .75 caliber when looking down the bore in that fashion, don't it? Makes me wonder if it's a 9, .40 or .45...

ScottS
June 23, 2004, 11:32 AM
He has a poor grip on the gun, OTT nothing.Really? Looks like a pretty vanilla "thumbs down" two-handed hold, although to be honest I've never looked at my hands from this angle. Isosceles guy, too, I see.Easy. I read the EXIF data.

Most modern mainstream digital camera's record information about the settings and the camera in the header of the image file. Sometimes this gets destroyed in the editing process, but this one wasn't. Various programs can read and interpret the data... I use this one . EXIF data can reveal some interesting things, once you know it exists.This might be the most useful little nugget in this thread. Thanks!

Scott

Das Pferd
June 23, 2004, 11:40 AM
Ok, I'll bite Nick1911. How do you know all the details?

After you have saved the picture onto your hardrive, open the file folderits in. Then move your mouse cursor over the picture and a little box should pop up telling you all the data. At least thats how it works with XP.

Nick1911
June 23, 2004, 11:48 AM
After you have saved the picture onto your hardrive, open the file folderits in. Then move your mouse cursor over the picture and a little box should pop up telling you all the data. At least thats how it works with XP

Interesting! I didn't know that XP had built in EXIF data reading... That'll come in handy... (I just switched to XP about a week ago, so I'm still getting used to the changes... neat feature)

This might be the most useful little nugget in this thread. Thanks!

No problem. It's kind of cool that the camera records that right in with the picture... Little known fact that comes in handy every now and then. ;)

Nick

2nd Amendment
June 23, 2004, 11:51 AM
Well, I'll chime in. :) Looks like a helluva good photo to me. It remains a good shot even if there was an idiot actually holding the camera. :rolleyes: As for what someone said about eye and hearing protection, what are the odds you'll have such an opportunity in a home defense situation?

ny32182
June 23, 2004, 12:01 PM
You know folks, guns don't fire unless you pull the trigger.

I like it. Looks like a .40 Gold Dot to me.

laynlow
June 23, 2004, 12:10 PM
Really? Looks like a pretty vanilla "thumbs down" two-handed hold, although to be honest I've never looked at my hands from this angle.

Yep, and it's wrong.

ny32182
June 23, 2004, 12:20 PM
Ok, I'll bite. Whats wrong with it?

c_yeager
June 23, 2004, 12:20 PM
Yep, and it's wrong.

Not that long ago using two hands to hold a pistol was "wrong" too...

thatguy
June 23, 2004, 12:25 PM
Bsic gun photography. Nice job and it is an eerie effect to see down the bore so well. Even Jeff Cooper has said that sometimes you have to break the rules when making pictures.

Psssniper
June 23, 2004, 12:37 PM
I like the picture
I don't like the graphic "gtfo"

ScottS
June 23, 2004, 12:37 PM
Yep, and it's wrong.Whew! Glad I came here so I could figure out which techniques are wrong. There are a bunch of 1911 shooters at my club who will be glad to know they're doing it wrong. I'll make sure to tell them. I'm sure it will make me very popular.

Just so I get it right, which is now correct, "thumbs high" or "thumbs forward?"

BTW, is Weaver wrong now, too? Squinting non-dominant eye? Kydex?

Scott <--Never seems to get the newsletter when things switch to wrong.

triggertime
June 23, 2004, 12:48 PM
For those of us who like to critique grip and technique, locking your thumbs down when shooting from a modern isoceles stance will break contact between the support hand and the gun hand as well as break contact between the support hand and the grip of the gun, which results in heeling, poor recoil management and increases your shot to shot recovery time.

Why? Body mechanics. Rolling your elbows out on a thumbs down grip causes your grip to come apart whereas rolling your elbows out on a thumbs forward grip not only increases your grip on the gun, but also increases contact between the support hand and the gun hand.

laynlow
June 23, 2004, 12:51 PM
LOL. I won't waste my time if your not willing to learn. Just because lots of people do it doesn't make it right.

Can you shoot a gun that way? Yes. Is it the most effective way? No.

Did I even mention stance? No.

Could that shooters be improved? Yes.

Discussing technique on the net is difficult anyway, I would prefer to show someone. I just answered Das's question. Sorry if that offends you.

Correia
June 23, 2004, 01:07 PM
Wow, you guys are pretty amazing with your ability to guage somebody's grip and shooting ability from a staged photo. That is a remarkable ability considering that as an basic instructor of actual human beings in the real world I have a hard time diagnosing a person's shooting grip while I'm actually there watching them, and not noting the fact that every single human being on the planet has slightly different physical traits that may change their grip, you know things like grip size, hand size, finger length, bone structure, physical handicaps, nerve damage, or even longer fingernails. Since I lock down my thumbs in a high thumb grip in a modified Iso stance on my 1911 that I have shot extensively in competiton for the last several years, I will be sure to disregard any wins or trophies which I may have accumulated because in reality I have been doing it wrong the whole time. :)

You know what? How about this. Experiment until you find what works for you, regardless of what some expert instructor has to say. Really experiment until you find your best stance, don't disregard any advice, keep an open mind, and try everything. Pick what works best and practice it until it is as natural as walking. There you go.

Sorry for the rant, but I get really irked whenever I'm told that there is only one proper way to shoot. I can go to national level matches and watch the people that are considered the best shooters in the world, and no two of them use exactly the same grip. Maybe there is a lesson there.

laynlow
June 23, 2004, 01:29 PM
Wow, you guys are pretty amazing with your ability to gage somebody's grip and shooting ability from a staged photo. That is a remarkable ability considering that as an basic instructor of actual human beings in the real world I have a hard time diagnosing a person's shooting grip while I'm actually there watching them, and not noting the fact that every single human being on the planet has slightly different physical traits that may change their grip, you know things like grip size, hand size, finger length, bone structure, physical handicaps, nerve damage, or even longer fingernails.

Speaking in generalities of someone's grip or stance is not difficult at all. Fine tuning them in person and checking grip, pressure, trigger control, etc can be challenging, though rocked science, it ain't. I know a guy who broke his wrist, and it fused together at a strange angle. He is now a weaver shooter for life because of the angle of his wrist. Generally though, physical differences don't play a great enough roll prevent discussion of the pros and cons of different grip styles.

I don't believe I said there was one way to shoot. Certainly their are endless variations. If you have been shooing one way for a long time, and it is ingrained and works for you then fine. Stop and think though, what if you had found a more efficient way to shoot years ago? It is possible that you would be a better shooter today than you are. We had a retired secret service agent come to our school that was on numerous teams, a PPC national champion, and served on three presidential details. He was angry that he had not been taught the techniques we showed him years ago.

Anyhoo, like I said I just answered the original question the way I saw fit. I did not mean to upset the take it personally crowd.

I always thought I had remarkable abilities though. ;)

ScottS
June 23, 2004, 01:33 PM
Just because lots of people do it doesn't make it right.Granted. And, conversely, just because one guy thinks it's wrong...

I'm hardly offended. I just wanted to be sure I knew which other "techniques" were "wrong."

As--like Correia put it--an "instructor of actual human beings in the real world," whose been doing it for many years (in my case, flying), I'm always amused by people who confuse their "technique" with "procedure."

There are many ways to skin the cat. Different techniques work better than others for different people. As long as your way gets the cat skinned, who's to say it's wrong?

Scott

thumbtack
June 23, 2004, 01:53 PM
OH please someone tell me whats wrong with the picture

One point everyone missed is that it is a Glock and not a 1911.

Correia
June 23, 2004, 01:54 PM
laynlow, I'm not taking anything personal. I'm just have a tendancy to be a smart alec.

As far as trying new things, and finding better ways to do stuff, I agree totally. I addressed that in my post that you quoted from. Experiment and listen with an open mind until you find what works for you and then practice it. I learn new things everytime I go shooting. You need to pay attention to what you are doing, and pay special attention to the people that shoot better than you.

With that said however, there are so many different styles used by some really good shooters that the idea of there being one best way to shoot is tiresome. I file it in the same place as the one best gun.

There are some systems that I try to talk people out of because A. they just plain suck. or B. Nobody on Earth does them well. Just like I would try to talk somebody out of buying a Lorcin (because they just plain suck) but I wouldn't try to talk them out of a Glock or Sig just because I personally don't like those brands. In the same vein I try to get my students to not use the cup and saucer grip, or the grasp the wrist grip, or my personal favorite, the put the support thumb over the firing hand so it can get whacked by the recoiling slide technique. (from personal experience, if you have a student that just cannot help but stick their thumb there, make sure they get a revolver!) :)

So I put Weaver vs. Iso in the same camp as High grip vs. standard grip or locked thumbs vs. thumbs forward. Those topics are the training equivilent to Glock vs. 1911. Both sides think they are right, and both schools of thought work well for different people.

I know of one major training school that absolutely insists on Weaver as the only true way to shoot. They harp on it constantly. They won't let their shooters go any other way. That is their method. The same thing for everybody. Personally I don't agree, because some folks just plain can't shoot Weaver worth a darn. But according to the particular school, EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG. I just think that is a stupid way of thinking.

laynlow
June 23, 2004, 02:05 PM
Correia,

We are on the same page then. I normally don't like to sit and type a long winded reply on message boards of any kind. I just hate it. Sometimes, I post short contrite answers for this reason. I don't mean to say the shooters grip is wrong to the exclusion of all others, but if I were to instruct him, I would tell him it is not the most desirable grip in the world. If he absolutely positively has to use that grip or won't try my way, then I will still tune him up as best as I can.

We don't teach Weaver or Iso. Our style lends it's self to Iso for numerous reasons, but shooting is an upper body skill so for the most part I am not concerned with what the feet are doing or what we call a stance.

Oh yeah, everyone knows that Glocks rule. Right?? :neener:

ScottS
June 23, 2004, 02:14 PM
Oh yeah, everyone knows that Glocks rule. Right?? :)OK, Now I am offended!

Scott

CrudeGT
June 23, 2004, 02:22 PM
One of the things I notce about the pic is that the individual is not aiming at the camera, he's aiming slightly above it.

Logic would have me asusme that when an individual aims a handgun you can see half, or more of the target over the sight, so the target should be able to see half or less of the eye. The gun completely covers the shooters right eye. Which would lead me to beleive that the gun is aiming above the target.

Also, i don't know a whole lot about shooting grip, and technique yet. I'm still a novice. But I do know that after having Correia tutor me for a good few hours and my shot improved a little but not perfect, that helping a persons shooting technique and procedure is a lot more difficult than to say "He would shoot better if he moved his thumbs."

Bruce H
June 23, 2004, 02:26 PM
Make a poster of it. Change the caption to " Go ahead break in". Stick on every door and window you have.

Correia
June 23, 2004, 02:35 PM
Crude we need to try that again. I kept getting distracted everytime some other High Roader would pull out a different cool gun. :)

Treylis
June 23, 2004, 03:10 PM
One point everyone missed is that it is a Glock and not a 1911.

Damn, beat me to it. ;-P

Nick1911
June 23, 2004, 03:39 PM
Taking that picture isn't really that hard, take a look at the attached picture, it was just a snapshop. You can clearly see the firing pin. Not real hard...

Nick
(I had to balence the original pic with something tastefull... :D )

(And don't even get going on the grip... it was a snapshot :uhoh: )

Standing Wolf
June 23, 2004, 06:07 PM
Terrible typography.

spin180
June 23, 2004, 08:28 PM
Not difficult at all...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1078608

And I poked it with a stick and shook it real good while looking down the barrel to make sure it wouldn't just go off before I took the picture! :D

magsnubby
June 23, 2004, 11:10 PM
What's wrong with this picture? not a damn thing!!

rust collector
June 23, 2004, 11:49 PM
What'ja do to get the red out of gunmon's eyeballs? Flash must've been very close to lens center to light up the bullet, so we should be seeing some well-illuminated retina, even though you carefully covered up the aiming eye.

BHPshooter
June 24, 2004, 11:40 AM
Kinda reminds me of one I did a month or two ago.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=985738

Wes

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