Pulling Carry Gun in a Gun Shop


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orygunmike
June 23, 2004, 01:53 AM
So...Saturday I am at the gunshop...looking at several guns and having good conversation with the fellow behind the counter. Another fellow engages in our conversation..and starts telling me what a great gun the Sig is that i"m holding. He goes on to tell me that it is his carry gun and how much he likes it. The next thing you know, this guy is reaching into his waist and pulling his carry gun from the holster, pointing it towards the salesman while doing so. And then proceeds to continue saying what a great gun it is.

Needless to say the mood changed.

After I requested he put the gun away, and he did...me and the salesman go back to talking guns.

Here is my question for all you CCW folks out there (I am not): Was this a violation of the Oregon CCW law? No fair saying what you would have done had you been in the store...I'm really just wanting to know if this guy was in violation of the state's Concealed Carry law, or if being in a Gun Store somehow makes it OK to dislpay your carry gun

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Wildalaska
June 23, 2004, 02:38 AM
Ya draw a gun in our shop when I am there without asking first...you are asking for trouble.

Ya want to have agun in your hand it better have the action open otherwise.... keep it under your shirt.

WildnoposturinginfrontofmepleaseAlaska

Valkman
June 23, 2004, 02:52 AM
Whether he voilated the law or not he's lucky he didn't have a few guns pointing back at him. He violated the "Dumb A$$" law. :uhoh:

sm
June 23, 2004, 02:54 AM
I don't know about Oregon.

I have been in a gunstore both in home state /out of town where I was legal to CCW and been asked to show my carry gun. [ I knew the gun store folks]. I either went to the "clearing bucket" , or to 'safe area" in shop where testing is done, made safe and walked back out to customer / gun store fella with cyl open/ slide back , mag out and in safe. Grip first to Gunstore person who again checked to make safe. If for a customer to view, we watched to make sure customer followed this safety protocol as well.

Reverse order, using safe area to make ready for carry, conceal and I went on my way.

4 Rules, Gunstore etiquette, 4 rules, permissions, 4 rules, courtesy, and 4 rules.

This was with folks I knew, and folks as customers the gunstore folks knew and trusted. If I was asked to come by with a certain gun, I entered with action open, safe and presented to gunstore owner . I CCW-ed something else.

pax
June 23, 2004, 03:08 AM
orygunmike,

Can't remember Oregon's brandishing statute off the top of my head.

If it had happened on this side of the river, it would definitely have been out of legal bounds. Washington's statutory language about brandishing is, "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

One reasonably expects to see weapons in a weapons shop, so the mere display of someone's gun wouldn't be in violation. However, if he pulled his gun with an intent to intimidate people, or if his gunhandling were careless enough that bystanders were alarmed, he'd be in violation even if he was standing in a gun store at the time.

pax

SKN
June 23, 2004, 03:44 AM
I don't have the exact language in front of me but IIRC the ORS for menacing makes it an offense to point a firearm at someone except in self defense. Statute law makes no exceptions for location, I'd have to research any case law on that issue. I think that it would be a technical violation of the statute if the clerk wanted to make an issue of it.

Do you know if he actually had a CHL or was it an assumption made all around?

KMKeller
June 23, 2004, 06:25 AM
At my regular range, it's ok provided you go out into the firing area and unload/make safe. Then you can return to show everyone.

Obiwan
June 23, 2004, 08:14 AM
Very poor manners at the very least

ScottS
June 23, 2004, 08:23 AM
Was this a violation of the Oregon CCW law?Some things are illegal.
Some things are stupid.
Not everything that's stupid is illegal.
Not everythng that's illegal is stupid.

I try hard not to do anything illegal.
I try harder not to do anything stupid.

Scott

sturmruger
June 23, 2004, 10:25 AM
Definetly not one of the smarter things that guy could have done. If I was the shop owner I would have reamed his butt out and sent him packing.



Very well put Scott.

dukeofurl
June 23, 2004, 10:32 AM
IMO - if it was my business, upon seeing the gun come out of the holster and pointed at my staff I'd be a little on edge.

Someone starts to point somethiing at me, I'll either hit the deck or push the muzzle away from me and proceed to tell them to get the F**K out.

Granted, it may not have been loaded but it was damn near impolite.

El Tejon
June 23, 2004, 10:35 AM
O.K., everyone put the derringers away. We all have them. Moe the bartender.

Tell him to leave the :cuss: gun in the :cuss: holster!!!

How many times do we have to read on THR about people playing gunshow or jacking around with cousin Billy Bob's raffle gun while jawing about the state of the world's moonshine supply who set themselves or their property on fire? Don't coon finger it, don't play gunshow, don't say "hey, y'all watch this!".

Even if not in violation of criminal or administrative code, leave the gun alone and don't YeeHaw it out. A pistol in a holster is like a car in the garage. It's nice and safe there and available if you need it.:D

Zundfolge
June 23, 2004, 11:00 AM
Granted, it may not have been loaded but it was damn near impolite.
RULE #1: ALL guns are loaded.

At any rate, this would be a good place to look for the Oregon Statute: http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/oregon

larry_minn
June 23, 2004, 02:50 PM
Heck I don't like doing this even in gun shop where I am known. If customers I won't. Actually only time was when a new gun had a minor malfunction that I had bought there. They wanted to fire it into the test barrel. Worked fine for two mags so they had me do it and they noticed my thumb was riding the slide catch down. Slight change in grip and all is good. Another time to check holster and they didn't have example on desplay. I still got the OK from salesperson.
I did put my hands on it when we had a couple gang bangers act rather strange. BACKED up to door and driver stay in running car. Passangers remove a uncased pump shotgun from trunk and other gent looked to have something behind his jacket....
Two (likely) POS came in and noticed we were rather spread out. One salesman had 12 guage shotgun in his hands (elevated counter area so they were always ABOVE customers) Other sales guy had his pistol in hand and I was partly behind a safe. Guy looked around/at buddy/and left. NOBODY threatened them. NO guns aimed at them and I doubt they could see guns in hands of store personal. The three of us did give them our UNDIVIDED attention.
What really bugs me? My thought I can remember today was "Let the store staff shoot them so you don't have to deal with Police/courts/lawyers."
I was INTENDING to hold off in hopes the store personal could handle it (which was likely) for my own comfort. Sad thing is I really haven't changed..... One ridealongs I tell Officer they get paid/council provided if they shoot someone. I have to pay for my own ammo....
Firearm training class question is would you shoot if person came in only door with sword and yelling he was going to cut everyone into (raw fish) Sushi?. I said as there were 8 other folks with guns PLUS two instructors and I was 3 tables from door I would let someone else shoot him. :(

GEM
June 23, 2004, 04:54 PM
Guy should be given a dunce cap and a stool in front of the store. What a damned idiot. He points a loaded gun at someone. Lucky he didn't get shot.

I'm almost willing to have that guy's permit suspended for a year or something like that.

JeepDriver
June 23, 2004, 07:28 PM
The shop I work at requires all CCW holders and LEO's to tell us if they are carrying.

Mainly because of bone heads like that. We have had to many people pull or unholster loaded handguns w/o any type of warning.

We have a large sign on the door (in the shape of a STOP sign) that states the all off duty police and CCW holders inform the Range officers that they are carrying.

Yet the off duty police feel they don't have to follow our rules :fire: And they also still feel that they should be allowed to use our range. I wonder what would happen if I didn't tell them I was carrying and just decied to pull out my carry piece?

Variable
June 23, 2004, 07:48 PM
"166.190 Pointing firearm at another; courts having jurisdiction over offense. Any person over the age of 12 years who, with or without malice, purposely points or aims any loaded or empty pistol, gun, revolver or other firearm, at or toward any other person within range of the firearm, except in self-defense, shall be fined upon conviction in any sum not less than $10 nor more than $500, or be imprisoned in the county jail not less than 10 days nor more than six months, or both."

Thats from the oregon statutes. The way I read it, it could be a coin flip. He did point the firearm at the guy. However did he do it "purposely"? Probably not, he could use a class on safety though!

Rebeldon
June 23, 2004, 08:44 PM
What an idiot. Most gun stores I frequent have signs that read something like this:

"For your safety and ours, no loaded guns are permitted on premises"

crucible
June 23, 2004, 09:02 PM
And if a "gun" store goes out of it's way to disallow (in particular) CCW holders from being armed in thier stores-they get no business from me. Ever.

If a gun store doesn't want law abiding citizens who have been approved by the state to carry concealed in thier store, then they are as bad as any other business who goes out of it's way to disallow legal CCW holders, and they deserve no better treatment than say, your Kroger's in Ohio, or any other stores that go out of thier way to disallow law abiding CCW holders.

In fact, they deserve worse, as 'they' are supposed to be on 'our' side. Cripes, the anti's hate us enough without being able to point to gun stores and say "even gun stores don't want armed citizens".

(Brandishing, stuipidly so like was mentioned earlier has nothing to do with this issue, despite being a very foolish thing to do.)

Cruc, who just posted his first post but has been lurking for some time, Cruc

Rickstir
June 24, 2004, 09:48 AM
Similar to sm,

I have asked permission to bring out my weapon when shopping for holsters. Make safe, have him verify it is safe, then make to the holster isle (with a salesperson) to look and try fit. Got back to normal carry status before exiting.

I shoot/shop at this store frequently. They know me.

It is strange thought how the hair on the back of my neck goes up when some other custormer starts handling firearms. I just kind of stop what I am doing to make sure they know what they are doing. If I don't think they do I put a lot of merchandise between them and me.:rolleyes:

FPrice
June 24, 2004, 09:52 AM
" "For your safety and ours, no loaded guns are permitted on premises" "

I do not think that I would frequent a gun store which had this sign posted. And I would make sure that they knew why.

Gunsnrovers
June 24, 2004, 12:34 PM
Being in Los Angeles, and not being a LEO, former LEO, politician, media darling, or hack, CCW isn't in my future. Moving is, but that's a different story... :)

That being said, I would never frequent a gun store that posted I could not CCW on sight. Nor would I give them business if they demanded I tell them I CCW. I was under the impression that one of the C's in CCW mean concealed. If it's concealed, it's none of their business.

If I were to bring in a gun for new accessories, to be looked at, etc., it would not be the one I CCW at that time. It would come in in a case under my arm unloaded and checked before I enter the store. I would have something else in a holster that day.

As for the guy in the 1st post, I can't see how he violated the local law and I don't read where he intentionally pointed at anyone. From the comments, his intentions appear to be sincere and non threatening and if the pistol was pointed at someone, it was due to a lack of awareness. I do see him as being ignorant and having very poor manners. If I thought he was otherwise a decent guy, I would have a talk with him. If I thought he was a jerk, I give him an ear full he'd be asked to leave.

*edited a typo/spelling

pax
June 24, 2004, 05:38 PM
From the comments, his intentions appear to be sincere and non threatening and if the pistol was pointed at someone, it was due to a lack of awareness. I do see him as being ignorant and having very poor manners. If I thought he was otherwise a decent guy, I would have a talk with him. If I thought he was a jerk, I give him an ear full he'd be asked to leave.
The problem is that someone who is sincere and non threatening as to intention can still end up killing people he didn't intend to kill when a loaded gun is involved. His lack of awareness could lead to someone else's death or dismemberment -- and that makes his behavior worthy of a very memorable reaction on the part of others who are there, no matter how benign his intentions might have been.

Even if the gun had been unloaded, I'd like to point out that heart attacks are as deadly as bullets and if the people around him hadn't checked the gun and okayed what he was doing with it, he was risking having someone die from a heart attack when he carelessly allowed his gun to be "pointing ... towards the salesman."

pax

I believe everyody in the world should have guns. Citizens should have bazookas and rocket launchers too. I believe that all citizens should have their weapons of choice. However, I also believe that only I should have the ammunition. Because frankly, I wouldn't trust the rest of the goobers with anything more dangerous than string. -- Scott Adams

hoji
June 24, 2004, 05:41 PM
Sad fact is, the second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, but the majority should probably make the choice not to.{I feel the same way about idiots behind the wheel}

Gunsnrovers
June 24, 2004, 06:17 PM
Pax,

You're using my quote of context by not including the first sentence. I'm not saying give him a pass. I was answering the question about violating the law. What he did violated the RULES of gun ownership. Not the laws of gun ownership. Unfortunately manners and common sense usually aren't governed by laws, except the laws of nature.

strambo
June 24, 2004, 11:20 PM
Not against the law, but stupid.

I pulled my CCW in a gun store once. Shopping for a holster for it, and looking at the shelf with no exact matches...clerk asks if I have it with me because model "X" should fit it. I tell him I'm carrying it, and he says "OK, lets check it out." I felt a little uncomfortable as I had no intention of taking it out prior to his asking, but I faced a safe direction, cleared it and got a holster that would do until I could order exactly what I wanted.

I wouldn't dream of taking it out in front of strangers just to show them. Less administrative handling of loaded firearms is a good thing.

steelhead
June 24, 2004, 11:24 PM
Was it Keith's or Gunbroker?

P95Carry
June 24, 2004, 11:39 PM
Only time I did this was at my local FFL ........ I wanted to check a holster and asked ....''May I take out my carry piece''?

''Yes'' was the answer.

I drew the piece ... keeping muzzle down .... opened cyl and dumped rounds ... placing them in my pocket .. gun then placed on counter - safe - and cyl open. No probs.

I can well imagine tho - someone with no thought of the four rules ... doing things very sloppy and dangerous. It HAS to be done ONLY with owner's consent .... and probably will be only viable where you are known.

If myself behind counter - I could well accept it done by many I know ...... but with a stranger, not so sure. I would prefer they handed me the piece butt first .... and leave it to me to clear and make safe.

Greybeard
June 25, 2004, 01:24 AM
The actions of the man described in the first post are a primary example of why CCWers are often not allowed to carry in gun shows - another place that some folks seem to get upset when they must temporarily be disarmed. Unfornutately, it only takes ONE idiot to ruin things for many.

The first way that we have dealt with the issue at our little range (with minimal retail area) is a sign at the walk-though gate that reads " !!! All firearms - loaded or not - must remain concealed until inside on the firing line !!! "

Beyond that, at the beginning of classes (especially for CHL renewals), I often make an announcement to the effect of "If you are currently carrying, that is fine, just leave it where it is. I do care if you are packing a loaded hand cannon in the crack of your ***, just do not take it out until instructed to do so." Is that offensvie to some? Probably a few. But I think it is typically appreciated by most folks because it gets everyone's attention to the point we don't have Bubbas showing off their pieces at inappropriate times and places.

orygunmike
June 25, 2004, 01:13 PM
This took place at the GunBroker in Tigard

steelhead
Member

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 81
Was it Keith's or Gunbroker?



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