[Mark Benningfield]

Hello All.

Well, it seems I've gone and done it now! I am officially under investigation by the U.S. Postal Inspection Service.

As some of you who attended CounterAttack 2003 may already know, I am a mechanic for the U.S. Postal Service. Prior to attending CounterAttack, I had been telling my co-workers about it and about how much I was looking forward to the Saturday night Shoot and Social. I had planned on taking pictures, but I left my camera in my hotel room. :mad: So, I did the next best thing: I took my target to work to show the guys, and they all got a kick out of it. All that is, except for the manager of the Vehicle Maintenance Facility, who is my supervisor's boss.

To make a long story short, he got onto me about it and I asked if I had violated any rules. He said that I hadn't, but that he didn't like it and not to do it any more. I told him that I didn't think he could reprimand me and tell me I didn't break any rules in the same breath, and he threatened me with the Postal Inspectors.

So, today I got to visit with a pair of Postal Inspectors (Federal Law Enforcement Officers). They too, told me I hadn't broken any rules, but the target (and all of a sudden, the empty leather holster on my belt when I change clothes in the locker room) gave rise to certain possible perceptions. I had cleared the holster with my supervisor, by the way, when I started wearing it. Anyhow, I asked how I could be held responsible for someone's unfounded, emotionally biased perceptions, and they said (pretty much) "Just because!"

Then they said, "Let's compromise: don't bring any more targets, and don't wear the holster in to work." I asked how my total compliance with each of their terms could be considered a compromise. Then came: "Look, we're trying to go easy on you. We could do an OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION!!" At that point, I was pretty disgusted, so I said, "Knock yourself out."

Now comes the official investigation:

What kind of gun do you carry?
None of your business.

You don't want to tell us?
Nope.

Let's start with a list of all the guns you own.
None of your business.

You don't want to tell us the guns you own?
Nope.

Well, how many guns do you own?
More than two.

Oh, and less than a hundred, huh. Okay, a smart-a$$.

Then followed a LONG list of personal information questions, which the Postal Service already has answers to. It's certainly not hard to discern the focus of this investigation, now is it. Hopefully, the worst-case is that they will invite me to leave the Postal Service. I (and my family) really hope they don't decide to present me with a search and seizure warrant for my firearms that they are so interested in.

[Blackhawk]

Tell them they don't want to make you disgruntled.... :D

Seriously, keep good records and a good diary of everything that happens. You might need or want them. Write stuff down even if you don't think it's important.

[CZ-75]

Just make it clear that you haven't broken any rules and will be seeking legal advice, possibly a lawsuit (though the govt. sets itself up as immune in many cases).

Are you in a govt. employees union? Ask your rep for legal representation.

Anyways, I think getting a lawyer might not be a bad idea, but certainly a terrible waste of your money to defend you from a witch hunt.

I've heard that the PO sets itself up as antagonistic in its relationships w/ non-supervisory employees. Sets some off -- and we know what happens from there.

[CZ-75]

What Blackhawk said. Get witnesses to any alleged incident from fellow employees (if they haven't been/aren't intimidated).

Ask that all questions be given in writing and that all conversations be tape recorded. Take your own tape recorder to dissuade "creative" editing. You really ought to have a union rep present if applicable.

Oh, and keep answers as brief as possible. The less you say, the less gets twisted.

[Mike Irwin]

You, Sir, are in need of an attorney.

Right now.

[Airwolf]

Lawyer up. Get one on deck, briefed and ready to go.

It may not go that far but you’ve already held your ground and I have a feeling that the feds aren’t going to like one of their minions calling them on their :cuss:

Easier to be prepared than to be caught short.

I'm sorry. "You're not breaking any rules" followed by "do what we tell you to do anyway" smacks a bit too much like a thug telling you to "do it for your health, if you know what's good for you."

How dare you insist that they follow the rules. :cuss: :fire:

[TexasVet]

Also, since you are in a pretty gun friendly state, write your congressman with as many exact details as you can remember and follow-up with a call to his local office. Sometimes just a little inquiry from the hill makes things go away.
I got transferred from one Navy hospital to another halfway across the country once when good ol' Carl Albert from Oklahoma made a simple phone call.

[Wildalaska]

Lawyer lawyer laWYER...

wILDGETONEFASTaLASKA

[WonderNine]

I'm proud of you Mark!!!

:)

[Azrael256]

Mark, there you go causing trouble again! This one is even cooler than the last one. Don't give 'em an inch. See you Saturday.

[Pendragon]

It sounds like you are being investigated for beint a PITA.

You should definately seek representation and also take a play out of the Scientology handbook: play offense only.

Ask for their supervisor name and (maybe talk to your lawyer first) demand to know WHAT is being investigated.

Ask them why they are not out investigating actual crimes.

Document everything, tape everything.

Definately talk to your congressman and tell him they are wasting federal resources on a witch hunt due to someones personal prejudices. Do what you can to make them justify conducting an investigation. Make it expensive and ugly for them.

Good luck. :cuss: :fire:

[voilsb]

yeah, what they said. get everything in writing, and tape everything.

especially have them provide a written statement of exactly what they are investigating and why, and all possible results of said investigation.

[Viking6]

Good advice, so far. Another tack might have been "Look guys, I'm not trying to piss you off but I'm not breaking any rules and I'm definitely not a threat to anyone here. Also, again not trying to piss you off, but my ownership of guns is none of your business and this whole episode is the result of nervous Nellies and a CYA boss". Probably wouldn't work but a thought.

[anchored]

Actually, you might take a look at some of the decisions of the Merit Systems Protection Board here: http://www.mspb.gov/decisions/decisions.html

As with most employee/employer relationships, the basic rule is that you don't have the right to disobey your supervisor's instructions just because you don't agree with them or they aren't based on policy. Generally, the rule is there can't be a rule to cover every situation, and resisting a supervisor's directive could be insubordination, even if the directive is stupid. Already, you've caused your employer to expend resources it would not have had to expend had you simply shut up and ignored the shackles, which is evidence in their favor.

[DeltaElite]

Tell them you are gay, then you will be a protected class and they won't even think of hassling you. :D

[NewShooter78]

Or maybe his supervisor shouldn't be trying to make his personal biases USPS directives. Just because he's a fed employee doesn't give them the right to ask personal questions like that. It isn't their business how many guns he owns. And bringing a target to work for the fellas to look at doesn't reek of anything threatening. And since his supervisor said it was okay for the holster then there shouldn't have been a problem there either. I'd talk to my congress critter before getting a lawyer, and I'd keep records of everything that transpires between him and the inspectors. If the media weren't so blissninny, I'd say call them too!

[NewShooter78]

Now that's priceless Delta! :D

[QKRTHNU]

The target you brought into work wasn't by chance a picture of your Supervisor was it? :D

[Ebbtide]

Way to go!!!!! And Good Luck.

Good thing you don't work in the private sector, you would have been standing in the unemployment line by now.

[pbman]

Store your extra guns at a friends house, so they woun't damage/scratch them if they come to your house.

Or send them (out for repairs).

Or take them to a pawn shop. = cheep storage.

[Mark Benningfield]

Hello All.

Thank you all for the input and advice. To update, after I got out of the meeting with the Postal Inspectors, the VMF manager called me back into his office and gave me a "Verbal Order" to not bring in any more targets and to quit wearing my holster in. I said, "Fine. No problem. Why didn't you just do that yesterday?" He responded with "That's really none of your business!" He's really taking this personally at this point. I then asked him if he would put that order in writing and he said, "No I won't. I don't have to put it in writing." I told him that I never said he HAD to put it in writing, I simply asked him if he would. Face got even redder!:D So, I had one of the guys in the shop come in and witness the order. For reasons too numerous for this post, I am not a member of the Union, so that option's out. On a related note, I'm pretty sure that some of the guys that are avidly pro-Union will bear false witness against me for that reason.

I'm also pretty sure that legal representation is a non-starter as well. I'm already in hock up to my eyeballs with legal fees from another dance with my ex-wife last year, Bless her pointed little head.:banghead:

Anyways, I'm thinking that even though I am not a member of the Union, I am a member of the Bargaining Unit, and the Union is the EXCLUSIVE representative of members of the Bargaining Unit. So, I would need proof of the Union's refusal to represent me before I could even get the Postal Service to recognize my lawyer as my representative. If the Union were to provide such proof, they would be open to legal action for failure to represent, so I expect that they will just stall. One thing about organized labor, they always look after the Organization first.

So, that's the situation for now. I'm all tooled up and I have all of my "stand-off" supplies in place. :mad: God forbid it should come to that. My children are pretty spooked, as am I. At least the two older ones are beginning to see that standing up for your rights is a no-sh_t serious thing. As I said, hopefully, the worst that will happen is that I will have to find another job.

[Smurfslayer]

I don't know if USPS follows the traditional gov't structure, but if the USPS has an Inspector General's office, file a complaint with them. Bullies need to know in no uncertain terms that 1: you are not afraid of them, and 2: you will fight back - hard.

From the sounds of it, your boss's boss abused his authority in sicking the PI's on you since he knew no rules had been broken.

good luck

[Waitone]

Lawyer

Keep an event and conversation log. Make sure you note names, locations, dates, times, and duration.

Remember the lawyer? Get smart on the law pertaining to recording face conversation and phone conversations. A personal recording device placed on a table prior to a meeting has a marvelously clarifying effect on the conversation.

Get to you personnel jacket, right now. Copy everything in it. Post dated documentation tends to breed at times like these.

Union? Get 'em involved.

Congressional vermin? Find a friendly staffer and periodically check in with them. Better yet, find out who sits on the postal oversight committee in both house and senate and find a friendly staffer.

Now is the time to ask yourself honestly if the empty holster was not a bit much? Target? Unbridled enthusiasm. Holster? Only you can answer the question. Be prepared for your supervisor to deny his / her clearance since you problem is evidently one step higher.

Please keep us posted.

[Chaz]

Hang in there Mark, Don't let the bast***'s get ya down!! This is an excellent lesson for your children about what it take to preserve freedom. Remember, It's all the little battles that count.

[TallPine]

Or send them (out for repairs).

Or take them to a pawn shop. = cheep storage.

But keep in mind that you would need to go through 4473 and background check to get them back from either of those options.

[Mute]

Name the USPS and the Supervisor separately in 2 different lawsuits. That way, that jackass, perhaps, won't be able to get the govt. to waste taxpayer's money defending him. As to your financial standing, find a lawyer who'll work on contingency.

[CZ-75]

I concur that you shouldn't drop your guard, even if the situation seems "resolved."

Best defense is a strong offense.

Nothing to say that you won't be singled out for future special treatment or that this issue won't die down, then be sprung again.

As for "verbal orders," BS on that. This becomes a "he said, she said" thing. The guy can say that he told you to wear red, white and blue underwear, too. If you don't, then you're in violation and insubordinate. All directives to you should be in writing.

You need to apprise yourself thoroughly of all employment rules and laws governing govt. employees specific to the situation. This could save lawyers fees.

As to not having $$$ for the lawyer, I guess that proves how fragile your rights really are. Deep pockets win. Evidence Rich at TFL and HCI suing him about the domain name.

[moa]

So, the PI's said you where now officially under investigation?

In that case, according to 18 USC, any attempt at lying or deception, if caught, is the same as committing felony perjury.

Either tell 100% the truth to the PIs, or better yet, say NOTHING. Saying nothing is your right it is not an admission of guilt.

Sell a few guns and get a lawyer. Wait! What did I say!

[Blackcloud6]

Consult your union. Get your own attorney. Keep your mouth shut, especially smart-aleck type comments or they will get you on insubordination or something like that. Be polite courtesous but firm. And did I say get an attorney?

[DCR]

If you hear from them again, you need legal assistance. Follow these 3 simple rules:

1. shut up
2. Shut Up.
3. SHUT UP!!

IIRC, postal inspectors are full-blown federal LEO's, with arrest authority, etc. If they can twist whatever you say to appear to be less than truthful, you can be charged with obstruction. If they come again, politely tell them you have nothing to say without the presence of a lawyer. Then get one on the double.

As federal officers, they've got to do mucho paperwork. If this investigation was for real, and not just a bullying session as a favor to somebody further up the chain, there will be a report on it. Try to get a copy of their report under FOIA. Because it may be characterized as a criminal investigation, though, you might be denied access. Nonetheless, it doesn't hurt to try. If you are successful, don't be too surprised to see "uncooperative" appear several times; in my experience that's LEO speak for "asserted constitutional rights and refused to answer or lawyered-up."

Hopefully this little episode is over; kudos to you for putting everybody in their place!

[Quartus]

Listen to what we are telling you! Keep a diary! Get one of those little spiral bound notebooks (pocket sized) and keep it with you at all times! Write it all down and knock off the smart mouth. That isn't standing up for your rights - that's just leading with your chin.


Then write to and call your Congresscritters. Really! If they move on your behalf, you will get results.

[Standing Wolf]

A former employer harrassed me for putting up my better targets in my cubicle—but another employee's P.E.T.A. posters were okay in his cubicle.

You'll notice I mentioned a former employer.

[Gordon]

Well if we hear youve'gone postal' we will know you were framed ,buddy. Personally I wouldn't have brought target nor wear a holster in a place of business unless they both had official purpose. I love to see you harrassing the pukes though , just use your head, my brother(in arms) and not the ego!:cool:

[Selfdfenz]

You gotta figure that the USPS is pretty gun sensitive due to some of the shooting issues over the past few years.

The terrorism thing has also hit them so they are looking for splinters on every plank they handle.

Don't know about your situation but if looking for something else to do is an option you might want to give it some thought.

The best time to look for a job is while you still have one and given their mind set sounds like you will be a lot happier someplace where the handlers don't have so many issues with the small stuff.

It's a shame our society requires the need for a lawyer all to often just to get from one day to the next.
If you are an NRA member you might give them a call and see if they have a lawyer that would be willing to speak with you. Doubt it, but just a thought.

S-

[mikearion]

Honestly, I wouldn't put my energy into that fight. Just tell em you think they are paranoid because obviously they are.

Next time they ask what type gun you own just tell em it's a "deadly one" like all guns protected by the U.S. Constitution.

Regards,
Mike

[Mark Benningfield]

Hello All.

Thanks folks, once again, for all the good advice and input. Yep, I'm keeping notes on every single incident, and luckily, my shop foreman was there when my supervisor gave the OK for the holster. I'm having lunch with some of my kinfolks tomorrow (my birthday, don't you know :) ) for a strategy session and to see about rounding up enough scratch to at least get a few legal inquiries made. BTW, the only part of the holster anyone EVER saw was the belt loops; it's an IWB holster. It's not like I was walking in with my Laredoan strong-side six-gun rig on my hip.:D

I have found out that the focus of the investigation is if I contributed to or created a Hostile Work Environment. How's that for subjective? I tell ya, the absurdity within the Postal Service has to be seen to be believed. It's no wonder they don't have any money!

Anyways, that's the latest. I'll keep you posted, and for those of you who are so inclined, prayers are, as always, much appreciated.

[mons meg]

I guess I am confused...what outcomes worse than reprimanding you or firing you can there be? Under what circumstances could they possibly search and/or seize property without any actual crime taking place?

[Big_R]

Mark:

I'm not sure if this applies to the federal folks or not, but the company I work for had a class on harassment, etc. In order for a situation to be considered hostile, it has to be considered by a judge as reasonable. The sexual harassment laws are basically the same, so for example, saying a co-worker looks nice today would not be considered harassment. Yes, it is subjective, but all the cases I know about that I considered frivelous were dismissed by a judge. Just because someone may have been offended, does not make the situation hostile or offensive to a reasonable person. The bad part is, there is no compensation for the accused to recoupe the money paid to the lawer.

I agree with the previous statements about keeping your words to a minimum. Remember, a man's worst enemy is his own tongue.

Unfortunately, I have found that putting someone under investigation is just about as bad as them being found guilty. These things have a way of showing up during promotion interviews, etc. Not fair.

Ryan

[Master Blaster]

Well, I ve read the responses you rec'd here.

My opinion:

While you are at work follow your bosses rules.

If you can't Quit and find another job.

As a responsible gun owner and a postal employee you should realize that there are some folks who do not share your enthusiasm for the shooting sports. They dont own guns and have an unreasonable and irrational fear of them. You should recognize and respect this. Lose the holster and dont talk openly about shooting at work. Save that for after work range trips and discussions with co-workers who have expressed an interest, or share your enthusiasm for the sport.

There have been several incidents at the post office in recent years were an employee brought in a gun and shot his coworkers and supervisors. This tends to make folks a bit paranoid especially if they dont share our sport.

Hiring a lawyer and defying the postal inspectors is a good way to get in to a pissing contest, and the government can afford to piss alot longer and harder than you ever can.

You did the right thing refusing to answer personal questions about your gun collection. The inspectors were on a fishing expedition, looking to hang you with volunteered information.
That is their job.

I would write a polite letter to your supervisor and copy the union, point out your good work record, and you previous stellar conduct. Mention that it is in the PO's best interest to retain dedicated competent lawabiding workers like yourself.
Mention that you did not seek to offend or frighten anyone by discussing your hobby. Mention you will refrain form discussing topics unrelated to work in the future. Dont mention the word gun or firearm or shooting anywhere in the letter, refer to it as your hobby or sport.

If your boss was say a catholic you would refrain from discussing why you think the pope is a hypocrit out of common courtesy, right????

You boss is a hopolophobe so dont discuss guns in his earshot.

Pick your friends at work carefully, here where I work, there are a few firearms enthusiasts, I only discuss guns with them behind closed doors.

Dont volunteer any information to the inspectors, dont mention hiring a lawyer, record any future discussion with them and say as little as possible.

If they threaten any arrest or legal action (doubt that will happen) then clam up and hire a lawyer.

JMHO YMMV

[buzz_knox]

1. The hostile work environment thing is crap, as your actions weren't based on a protected classification (i.e. race, sex, national origin, religion).

2. Don't tick off your boss by being a smart alec. Insubordination and conduct detrimental to the service are both punishable offenses, and you're probably getting close to the border line there. And the MSPB will give great deference to the choice of punishments. You'd have to prove that someone did something comparable in a nearly identical situation and wasn't punished as severely.

[coonan357]

I am Not a Lawyer or intend to be one (thats what El Tej does ) If I was in this situation I would get that first free counseling from one to see what they have to say , as for the holster why Are you wearing one CCW? as for the hostile work enviorment sound like its your boss thats creating the problem not you , I just left one where the terminal manager started calling me Names and obcentitys , got no reply from me but , the whole office heard him ( can youu say cut your own throat ) I should sue him but he isn't worth my time , and his managers are not looking to happily at him now either , as for this , lay low take notes , and always have someone witness any type of talking with superiors , and have a Happy Birthday !! :D