New model from Glock, the 37 is real.


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February 13, 2003, 03:37 PM
http://glocktalk.gunserver.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134682

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Schuey2002
February 13, 2003, 03:49 PM
It looks like they are going to create a new ".45 short" type round to use in this new gun...

sounds intriguing..:)

C. H. Luke
February 13, 2003, 03:59 PM
Probably just another Hoax from that .com.......

Glock chose the .45 ACP for their dinky and "whippy" 36,
so it doesn't follow that they'ed risk designing their next pistol
for a cartridge no other mfg. makes? Especially with the long de-bug they had with their 36 mags, etc.
There's no logic there for a shortened .45 anyway.
I'd buy a P/T size glock in .45 ACP in a minute but Hoaxes are just
Hoaxes...................

MrAcheson
February 13, 2003, 04:10 PM
Its chambered in .45 glock (.45 short) built on the G22 (full size .40) frame. The magazine holds 10 rounds.

Reaction: This is better than a .40 S&W how? .40 already has equivalent energy/momentum (assuming .45acp ballistics) and greater mag capacity in comparison.

Some of the glockers are talking like this is going to be a mini .45 super round, but for that glock would have to beef up their frame again. Plus glock's history with high pressure rounds like the .40 is not exactly sunny and bright thanks to chamber support.

Some folks are talking like this will be the answer to .40 accuracy problems, but its built on the .40 frame. The reason .40 accuracy is always worse than 9mm is that it stresses the frame more. I see no reason to believe that .45 glock will not do the same.

Might catch on, might not. I don't think they're scratching an itch like .40 and to some extent .357 Sig have done. For now I'm betting not if the AWB is not renewed and mag capacities go back up.

denfoote
February 13, 2003, 04:14 PM
If it comes with spent shell casings and I'm not from the People's Republic of Maryland, they won't get me to buy it!!! :mad:

10-Ring
February 13, 2003, 04:29 PM
hmm...45 short? Why do I need a 200 grn bullet going 800fps? or +p 925fsp? Someones got some esplainin' to do! :scrutiny:

Sox
February 13, 2003, 05:15 PM
Yeah Glock has lost his mind with this stunt. It's as if he is asleep at the wheel. Everyone is cryin for a singlestack fullsize. So, he gives them another G22 "G37". Everyone was so overly concerned with only having 8 rounds if it was a single stack. The 1911 gang is fine with 8. Who is going to produce this round initially? I am way over the Glock craze, especially with HK coming to town now, and the responsiveness of Springfield and the XD.

..
February 13, 2003, 05:15 PM
it's no hoax, the member that posted this is a well known stand up guy that is at shot. it's for real. i remember hearing the rumor about glock making a proprietary round but i never would have guessed it.

i'm kinda pissed. i waited and waited for a single stack .45 to get this crap?! hell, even if it shoots and acts like a .45acp it'll be forever till prices come down and availabillity goes up. remember the 9mm/.40 craze?

Tecolote
February 13, 2003, 05:49 PM
Sounds like a marketing flop unless Glock can still afford to almost give away Glocks to unsure departmental orders.

The market of the 45 has always been folks that like short fat rounds with lots of punch. Glock will have a very tough time with this one. The recall that's not a recall has also tarnished the company's name. Not to mention the anger over Januzzo's comments.

JimC
February 13, 2003, 06:18 PM
:o :rolleyes: :o

Spackler
February 13, 2003, 06:21 PM
.45 Glock? You gotta be kidding me. I don't see a place in the market for a .45 short.

DeltaElite
February 13, 2003, 06:22 PM
Bad idea. The 45acp already lacks velocity, maybe that's why I have my 10mm's. :D

10-Ring
February 13, 2003, 06:28 PM
I just got off the phone w/ Skunk. The more I think about it, it's like Glock has Homer J. Simpson working marketing & R&D.
Let's see in the last few months, they've given us:
1. Frame rail "recall"
2. PR nightmare w/ 60 minutes & bullet casing database
3. The 45 short...er...Glock

D'oh! :scrutiny: Anyone up for some laurel sitting?:neener:

Skunkabilly
February 13, 2003, 06:53 PM
Hey, it's better than Lisa Simpson running S&W :D

T.Stahl
February 13, 2003, 07:23 PM
A .45 kurz? :confused:
Will it come with mortar-sights for shooting beyond 50'? :D

Boats
February 13, 2003, 07:27 PM
Well I am glad that Glock has gone even farther partially suicidal.:D

This has to be the most stupid "innovation" to come down the pike since the magna-ring.

The 10mm was a legitimate attempt to bridge the perceived performance gap between the hi-cap 9mm and the harder hitting .45ACP. The 10mm being too stout for the faint of heart eventually became the .40S&W, sold alongside the 10mm.

The .357SIG seems more gimmicky, a necked down .40 that to my mind really only serves to mimic 9mm +p+ to claim ".357 mag from an autoloader!!!" A solution to a non-existent problem, but clever marketing.

Now we have the .45G. It is available in exactly one pistol. It has two published performance stats of 200gr at 970fps and 185gr at just shy of 1100 fps, IIRC.

The question is what does it add? You get bad ammo availabilty in a package the size of a Commander, gain two or three rounds, depending on what the 1911 shooter prefers to use for a magazine, at the expense of increased grip girth from a semi staggered magazine. In a Commander, one can shoot 230gr or 200gr+p or 185gr+p or 165gr P'werBall. Oh, and if the mag ban dies, a dedicated attempt to meet the arbitrary 10+1 limit of today will look stupid, especially if the common folk can once again carry full house .357SIG, .40s and 10mms and have equivalent ballistics with generally higher capacity or smaller platforms.

.45 ACP is expensive to shoot premium factory ammo from and I am certain that .45ACP drives a goodly portion of the ammo reloading industry. The availablity of .45ACP brass is next to limitless, making reloading cheap. Even if the .45G only needs case trimming of existing brass to be reloaded, most people will not want to make the effort and it will take years to develop any sizeable pool of once fired brass.

I predict a lingering death for the G37 and any offspring, especially given Januzzo's brilliance on the eve of the SHOT show.:scrutiny:

EJ
February 13, 2003, 07:31 PM
Useless cartridge-- regardless of Glock's latest tomfoolery

bad_dad_brad
February 13, 2003, 08:31 PM
I pray for a small thin single stack 8 round 9mm Glock on the order of a KAHR K9. Now that would sell like hotcakes. Sort of like a G19 on a diet.

BADSBSNF81
February 13, 2003, 09:08 PM
Lots of countries don't let their populace own weapons chambered in "military" calibers. It might sell very well in those locations. After all, just because we in the US can't have a .380 Glock didn't stop Glock from marketing it in other places.

Zak Smith
February 13, 2003, 09:29 PM
Posted on GlockTalk:

45 Glock Gold dot

185 gr 1100fps 497ft lbs
200 gr 984 fps 431 ft lbs

According to the speer website:

45 ACP Gold Dot

185 gr 1050 fps 453 ft lbs
200 gr 975 fps 421 ft lbs


So 45GLOCK will exceed .45ACP ballistics, in a smaller package. Sounds like a "win" to me.

Now I want a BHP that shoots it. Or it in the mid-size Glock. (#19/23/32).

-z

Sox
February 13, 2003, 09:49 PM
Lemme tell ya, if that's what you call exceeding .45 ballistics! That is a typical +P load .45 - similar to the old speer "flying ashtray" if I recall. They are just put'em in the coffin one at a time. If I were Glock I wouldn't be goofin around tryin to put my magnificent name on a stupid bullet. That's o.k. though, cause Springfield will make the XD's we want!! No offense meant, I am just way disappointed in this recent "unveiling"

Zak Smith
February 13, 2003, 09:59 PM
Okay, okay, good point. That ain't hardly `ceedin' .45ACP ballistics. It well-nigh equivalent, though.

A 200gr .45ACP has approximately the same sectional density as 124gr 9mm, or about a 155gr .40SW/10mm.

I think this is a really neat idea: .45 has great terminal ballistics, and many people complain that double-stack .45's are too big for their hands. Ok, I admit it- I have stubby little fingers. There's no way I can comfortable shoot a Glock 29, 30, or even 36. (I can manage a 1911, though.)

I'll reserve judgement until more is known about this round, price, brass availability, pressure limits, etc, but I think it's good that someone is trying new things with pistol cartridges and shooting platforms. You can't jam a .45ACP into a 9mm case, but this is probably as close as you'll get..

-z

DeltaElite
February 13, 2003, 10:01 PM
Those are interesting ballistics, I may end up with one of those. :D

trapshooter
February 13, 2003, 10:11 PM
45 Glock Gold dot

185 gr 1100fps 497ft lbs
200 gr 984 fps 431 ft lbs


This is 'hot'?

I can reload to match the above 185 and beat the 200 load out of published data. And I could beat that buying off the shelf stuff, in some cases. Maybe not with a Gold Dot, true. But Speer isn't the only company out there. Why would I buy another gun to do what I already can? This is a really stupid idea. Why am I not surprised it's coming from glock (defection).

The only comment in it's favor that I have seen is the prohibition in some countries on 'military' rounds. Other than that, see the prior paragraph.

Downcheck.

jimmy
February 13, 2003, 10:25 PM
Shucks, I'm still waiting for Glock to produce a .38 Super model. Call it the Glock 38. I expect to be waiting a long, long time. :scrutiny:

Zak Smith
February 13, 2003, 10:30 PM
trapshooter,

I think the point is- it fits in a smaller gun.

jimmy,

You really want a .38S or 9x23 Glock? I think someone on Pistolsmith.com converted a Glock 29 to shoot 9x23. Enjoy.

-z

trapshooter
February 13, 2003, 10:59 PM
Zak,

I'll tentatively concede the smaller gun point. But only until we can match the dimensions of the 37 against, say, a Springfield Micro-Compact, or one of the smaller Para's. The case circumference is the same. (.45 size). The only difference is C.O.L.

So, how much length do you save. Is the barrel that much shorter? Those ballistics out of a barrel in the three inch range, for that cartridge, would be, ballistically, an improvement over a +P .45 in terms of efficiency regarding case size. But it has to come at an increased pressure. Plus, there's a recoil penalty in the decreased weight, given the necessary higher pressure to get the increased velocity out of my assumed shorter barrel. I'm trying to concede your point, but I still don't see it. I can buy a prettty tiny .45 already.

As I said. The prior point about 'military' cartridge prohibitions is the only thing that makes any sense at all. This thing is destined to be a 'collectors' gun. Very soon. JMVHO.

Dave Williams
February 13, 2003, 11:07 PM
Pros:

-G22 size, hopefully will fit existing G22 holsters, so no need to buy more gear, can spend that money on ammo

-For people who like the G22 sized gun, me included, no need to buy the ridiculously expensive preban mags instead of the plugged 10 rounders, which have been prone to not work properly, it's probably designed as a true 10+1, like the KZ45

-Bigger bullets, and since destroying tissue/organs is how handguns wound, bigger is better as long as they penetrate good - This is good for people who like everything about the G22, except the little bullets

-Easily adapted into the G38, an 8+1 45 the size of the G19, which will be a kick *** carry gun (for folks who can't conceal the G22 sized guns), much better than the too wide G30, or the unreliable, breakage prone, 6+1 G36

-Easily adapted into the G39, a 27 sized backup/deep concealment gun, with the same capacity as a G36

-People who are forced to carry America's Police Pistol, the G22, can now carry the same gun with bigger bullets off duty, and have all the muscle memory plusses(man with one gun knows how to use it, etc)

-Perhaps Chiefs across the nation, knowing that some of their troops want bigger bullets in their G22s will let officers buy personally owned G37s to carry on duty, since training/gear will not be an issue

Cons:

-Ammo will be expensive and hard to find at first

-People will try to hot rod the round, and blow numerous guns up, blaming the gun

Dave

Zak Smith
February 13, 2003, 11:18 PM
trapshooter,

I am aware of some very small 1911-style pistols, and have shot the Kimber Ultra Carry (3" barrel, I think) a bunch.

My only argument about fitting in a smaller gun is that, all else equal, a 45GLOCK-chambered pistol can have a smaller grip and some over-all action length might be saved. The double-stack Glock .45's have a grip way to wide for me, and even the single-stack Glock 45 (#36) has a long reach. Reports say that the #37 is the same size as the full-size 9mm, the #17.

If a gun were designed from the ground up for 45GLOCK, it could be smaller than the "same" gun designed for .45ACP - a bit smaller in the grip length, and maybe a bit smaller in OAL.

Unless someone designs new frame dimensions, I don't see an application of .45GLOCK to the 1911 platform. People shy away from short cartridges there already, for reliability reasons.
Increased pressure probably isn't a bit deal in a newly-designed cartridge. Isn't SAAMI .45ACP+P around 20,000PSI? 9x19, .40SW, .357SIG, etc, all operate up around 35,000 PSI. The 45's got a lot of room.
This is all really academic until you can buy .45GLOCK ammo as cheap at .40SW, and there are other compelling pistols chambered in it.

regards
Zak

Zak Smith
February 13, 2003, 11:27 PM
From the pictures on Glocktalk.com,
http://glocktalk.gunserver.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134789

There are some case and cart. dimensions available. The metric conversion is screwed up, as you can see (1.10" = 27.94mm, not 28.9mm, and 11.5mm is .452", not .43"!).

In any regard, the base of the case is about 0.47", while the base for .45ACP is .48". Does this mean that a .45GLOCK round may chamber in a .45ACP, but would "slide on in", unless held by the extractor -- which seems likely, considering a .40SW Glock extractor will grab and hold a 9mm round ??

If .45GLOCK operates at a higher pressure than .45ACP, I can imagine really bad things happening.

-z

FCoelho
February 14, 2003, 12:08 AM
An important question is what is the construction of the .45 Glock cartridge case compared to the .45 ACP? Is there a difference in case wall thickness? Web taper? The .45 ACP has a pressure cap of 19,000 PSI with the +P version at 23,000 PSI. What has Speer set the limit for the .45 Glock at?

With a shorter case and overall length, you can probably rule out a 230 grain loading. From what I see of the 185 and 200 grain Speer loadings, their advertised muzzle velocities are no better than factory .45 ACP or +P. Remington’s first step into +P territory years ago brought us a 185 grain JHP at 1,150 fps. After that many other companies followed.

There are many, many compact autoloaders on the market, including two from Glock, that are chambered for .45 ACP. The truth of the matter is Gaston Glock wanted a cartridge named after himself. Why not? There is a .40 Smith & Wesson, a .45 Auto Colt Pistol, a 357 SIG. Heck even Cor-Bon jumped on the bandwagon and named one of their own designs the .400 Cor-Bon. Now look at poor Gaston with all those sales of his autoloaders with none of them chambered in a cartridge with his name. Well, over in Austria you have Hirtenberger loading .45 Auto Short for years. Where is Glock? Hmmmm… I’m starting to see a connection.

Could he have gone with a longer case? Well, yes but Detonics did that with the .451 Detonics Magnum. That would also mean that he would have to stick with the model 21/30/36 platform. With his .45 Shorty Glock he can re-release a design with his name on it and stuff it into a smaller frame. So why would a Glock fan want one, he is asked? Because it has the Glock name he answers! Besides, it will fit in existing holsters! What a perk. What happens when someone stuffs a .45 Shorty Glock in a .45 ACP chamber? Well that’s not his problem. What happens when .45 Shorty Glock brass mixes in with .45 ACP? Well that’s not his problem either.

Since Speer is loading this thing it will be interesting to see if ATK allows Federal to offer their own versions. Then we’ll see if Remington and Winchester jump on board too. I can just see Sig and HK rushing to the drawing boards to come out with their own autos for the .45 Shorty Glock. Heck, maybe even S&W and Colt will see the benefits of it. Why, it may be the next best cartridge in the whole world!

Just let me know if I am being too cynical :scrutiny:

10-Ring
February 14, 2003, 12:29 AM
It'll be interesting to see what kind of longevity the 45 Glock has. HK seems to abandoning the 357 sig. If you're diligent, you can find them, but their rare. Rarely see 357sig pistols in ANY of the shops I wander into. 10mm seems to be more of a niche caliber & only Glock seems to be providing 10mm pistols in any real numbers. 38 super is few & far between.
Bullet is slightly shorter overall than a standard 45 acp, so chances are you wouldn't gain any capacity. The grip will probably be thinner than a 21 w/ similar capacity (14-ish?)

I'd give it a shot. Let's see if this duck has wings
:scrutiny:

Blackhawk
February 14, 2003, 12:34 AM
Not interested.

Skunkabilly
February 14, 2003, 12:36 AM
I should get a Glock 37 and pair it up with a Sig 226 chambered in .357 Sig.

Schuey2002
February 14, 2003, 12:42 AM
Glocks ?? Sigs?? Way to branch out , Skunk.. LOL!:D :neener:

Longbow
February 14, 2003, 01:18 AM
..even a .22 cal Glock would have been a better choice than a proprietary castrated .45 ACP. I think they really missed the boat on this one:(. So much for the wait.... :rolleyes: .

COHIBA
February 14, 2003, 02:36 AM
i would rather see a "357 glock" w/ a single stack 10mm case necked down to .357. 10 rd.s on a slim line G19 sized pistol w/ a 115 gr 9mm bullet travling around 1600fps.

Schuey2002
February 14, 2003, 03:06 AM
Glock 37 Brochure cover (http://phipada.com/Phillip/glock37brochure.jpg) <---- click here.

A glossy picture for y'all..:)

Skunkabilly
February 14, 2003, 04:05 AM
It's perfect! :D

boing
February 14, 2003, 01:25 PM
Two words: New Coke. :p

FCoelho
February 14, 2003, 02:22 PM
Two words: New Coke.

:D :D :D

Schuey2002
February 14, 2003, 04:05 PM
Here's a Shot Show photo of this gun.. ( Sorry about the size :uhoh: )
http://www.gunblast.com./images/SHOT2003_Day1/DSC05615.jpg

FCoelho
February 14, 2003, 04:20 PM
Dumb cartridge but great shooter. I'm proud to have had Dave Sevigny on Team Triton and I wish him the best with his new career at Glock. I’m sure he will continue to spank the top shooters across the world.

M58
February 15, 2003, 01:43 AM
Belly up to the bar boys!
Silly idea.

makarov
February 15, 2003, 01:56 AM
Introducing a new gun which takes a proprietary cartridge is going to be difficult. The .17 HMR has taken off, and hopefully there will be other ammo makers step up to keep prices of the ammo reasonable. Glock will be the only maker of a gun in this caliber for the forseeable future. Who is making the ammo? Reloaders could trim cases, but that takes some dedication. I would be more interested in a single stack design concept or even the .22 idea.

Shane
February 15, 2003, 03:16 AM
If this new ".45 Glock" round is a castrated .45 ACP, I bet the penetration will be sub par. A .45 caliber bullet has a large surface area and thus slows down quicker when penetrating a substance, especially if the bullet is going slow from the start and its a light bullet. Now that they castrated the .45 ACP and turned it into the .45 Kurz essentiallY (if this rumor is true), its going to mean even slower velocity and less bullet weight, but same diameter bullet. I don't think this new round will have sufficient penetration on a side shot (i.e. if you hit someone from the side).

trapshooter
February 15, 2003, 09:01 AM
Just to be fair, the published vel. numbers put it at +P velocities, maybe a bit more or less. Enough to penetrate. But that picture doesn't make it look smaller than a SA Micro-compact, a Para, or even a Sig P245. I was expecting something a bit bigger than a KT.;)

duncan
February 15, 2003, 06:39 PM
357 sig is selling moderately.

LEAs are looking at 357 sig to replace their 40SW guns.

And the round solves some serious under penetration problems plaguing 9mm, 40SW, and 45 ACP.

If I need to punch through a barrier, I can with 357 sig.

Call down to the Texas State Troopers or the USSS or the FAA Air Marshalls.

Now this 45 kurtz sounds really dumb. Big and really slow bullet. No thanks.

duncan
February 15, 2003, 06:45 PM
Around Seattle, there are several shops carrying a couple of 357 sig guns in Sig Sauer, Springfield, and Glock.

And I can find a couple of Glocks and SW in 10mm as well.

Depends on your market and the diversity.

Out in rural or less populated areas, you can only get a pistol in 9mm, 40SW, or 45 ACP.

duncan
February 15, 2003, 06:52 PM
Why in the world would any one want a 200 grain bullet going only 900 fps?

Now a 200 grainer going 1400 fps would be nice in a smaller package.

Like the G36, an answer to a question unasked.

Mylhouse
February 15, 2003, 07:48 PM
i would rather see a "357 glock" w/ a single stack 10mm case necked down to .357. 10 rd.s on a slim line G19 sized pistol w/ a 115 gr 9mm bullet travling around 1600fps

I'm with Cohiba on this one. Actually, the cartridge already exists with the 9X25 Dillon, but maybe he could neck the 10mm case down to .30cal and have a 90 grain bullet going 2,200fps!!!;)

COHIBA
February 16, 2003, 11:40 AM
what i cant figure out is this...
if a 380 (9mm kurtz/ 9mm corto) is a short 9mm and the glock that is chambered for it is not allowable under law to be sold in the US the how is the 45glock (ala 45 kurtz/ 45 corto/ 45 short) allowable?

ajacobs
February 16, 2003, 12:40 PM
Like many of you I predict that it will fail. Primarly becuase I see no other manufacture seeing a need to chamber in that round.

I also think they went the wrong way when they started with the glock 36. If they had incorperated solid metal mags and a metal mag release they would have been able to go much thinner. Many people had hopped for a single stack 9mm like a kahr and I still think that would be a sucess from glock if the incorperated the metal mags, but with plastic coated mags it will almost be as thick as the double stack versions so that limits the advantage.

Zak Smith
February 16, 2003, 12:41 PM
COHIBA,

See BATF Import points from the Glock FAQ (http://www.glockfaq.com/models.htm#points).

Calibers .22 Short, and .25 Auto give no points; .22LR and 7.62 - .380 Auto give 3 points; and 9mm Para and over give 10 points. In addition a locked breach gives 5 points, which, IIRC, the .380 Glocks do not have.


-z

Tecolote
February 16, 2003, 01:28 PM
Just a theory here so go ahead and smash it up if you disagree.

The .40 owes its popularity to Glock, the fact that it fits in the same package as 9mm, and the widespeard feeling, right or wrong, among LE that 9mm was insufficient for defense. Glock was the first company to offer multiple models in .40 because SW only offered one model in that caliber. Glock pressed the .40 because it could sell more Glocks to LE going so far as to almost give them away in generous trades even for other companies' products.

Same story again for the 357SIG. Glock rushed the 31, 32 and 33 to market beating out all the competitors. SIG might have introduced the caliber but Glock made it popular. For a long time SIG had only the P229 in that caliber while Glock offered it in three different models. Only recently has SIG begun to market the 237SIG in the P239, P226, sig pro and P229.

Glock is probably looking at this and thinking if we made the .40 and 357SIG popular why not do it with our caliber? Sell cheap to LE and create a market for it. I think the gamble won't pay off because Glock is forgetting one thing, there's no company out there that will do what they did, offer the new caliber in a quick way in different packages. SIG, Beretta, SW, HK and smaller companies like Kahr have no interest in making models for the new caliber until it becomes popular. So the game rests with Glock. But there's the catch. The caliber won't be popular unless other companies make models for it and other companies won't make models for it unless Glock makes it popular.

tex_n_cal
February 16, 2003, 05:38 PM
One, I don't own any Glocks. Don't plan to, either.

That said, I see the point of it - a bigger bullet belching from a 9mm/40 size gun. Sounds like they are trying to create a new niche.

Now what are the pluses for us non-Glockers?

Now we can eventually own:

.45 cal Kahrs
.45 cal P7M8's
.45 cal Browning Hi-Powers

Wouldn't it be amusing if Colt or S&W made a single-stack gun designed around the .45G - ya know a gun with a nice slim grip and a good trigger. Turnabout is fair play, seems to me:neener:

Dean Speir
February 16, 2003, 11:48 PM
…the fellow who is engineering the rounds (there will be four of them, a TMJ and Gold Dot HP in both 185- and 200-grain) from ATK; it'll be a Speer product initially, but the ballistics are as yet unsettled. It's still being tweaked because of pressures, etc., so I question whether everything'll be available in the "45-60 days" suggested by Glock at SHOT.

I have some images of the new rounds, and as soon as I can get them out of my old laptop and onto my desktop computer, I'll put them up.

BTW: the cartridge is named the "45 Glock," and like the 357 SIG does not use a decimal point in the description.

Tamara
February 17, 2003, 02:44 AM
If it comes with spent shell casings and I'm not from the People's Republic of Maryland, they won't get me to buy it!!!

You haven't bought many new handguns in the last few years, have you?

Guess you won't be buying any more new handguns, made by anybody: Walther, Ruger, SIG, S&W, Glock, Taurus, HK, Colt, et cetera... They All Come With Spent Shell Casings And Have For A Couple Of Years, Now.

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