Caffeine or 7.62X25?


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Josey
June 29, 2004, 02:27 AM
Random thought. If the CZ52 is SO popular, why doesn't another mainstream manufacturer chamber something else in 7.62X25? I could see some autos easily converted by a top end to .30 Carbine and 7.62X25. Do I need coffee or is this a possibility? More pistols, more sales and more bullet designs? What do you think?:confused:

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WonderNine
June 29, 2004, 04:18 AM
They're not exactly uncommon, but they're not super popular either. You got any ideas on how to sell a new 7.62X25 chambered gun for $109.99? You might be able to compete with the CZ's and Tok's then.

pauli
June 29, 2004, 05:48 AM
i'd tend to believe that a handgun chambered in 7.62x25 (or, god forbid, .30 carbine) is, in fact, a substitute for caffeine.

cxm
June 29, 2004, 06:49 AM
S&B makes a boxer primed 7.62x25 round. It is available through normal channels.

I belive Winchester also now offers this load in their white box line as well... but it may be the same S&B round packaged in Winchester boxes.

Rumor has it that because of the production demands of recent military contracts for some 70 million rounds of 5.56x45 ammo, Winchester has contracted with S&B to provide their white box ammo. Can't prove this, but something heard on the street.

FWIW

Chuck

Black Snowman
June 29, 2004, 10:56 AM
Winchester has contracted with S&B to provide their white box ammo. Can't prove this, but something heard on the street.

This isn't nessisarily a bad thing. I've always had good results with S&B. At least comperable to WWB.

I also have to agree that a lot of the CZ 52s popularity comes from it's low cost. I know I want to pick one up. In fact, right after my Midway USA discount, it's the main reason I bothered getting my C&R FFL.

George Hill
June 29, 2004, 12:24 PM
Still waiting for a 1911 with Jarvis or other match grade barrel chambered for this round.

I still suspect this round has a great deal more accuracy potential than has been realized.

NoHarmNoFAL
June 29, 2004, 12:34 PM
I saw a BHP chambered in this at a gunshow not long ago, $1400.00. Give me a CZ52.

Devonai
June 29, 2004, 12:38 PM
You got any ideas on how to sell a new 7.62X25 chambered gun for $109.99? You might be able to compete with the CZ's and Tok's then.

I might pay twice or three times that much for a 7.62x25 pistol if:

1. Speer puts out a Gold Dot load for it.

2. The pistol has a safety and mag release that are easier to use.

Both of these reasons are why I sold my CZ52. I can't speak on the Tok, however.

Oh, and a double-stack mag would be a bonus, too.

mfree
June 29, 2004, 01:17 PM
Shouldn't that just be a barrel/mag change for a 10MM chambered firearm, assuming someone makes the barrel and mag?

Those two are a lot easier to come up with than an entirely new pistol.... glock 20 in 7.62x25? Would that be a Glock 20T (tokarev)? :D

Zundfolge
June 29, 2004, 01:32 PM
I would LOVE to see a semi-auto carbine in 7.62x25 and I think there would be a market for one considering how many CZ52s and Toks there are out there.

Downside is they wouldn't be in the $100 range and you couldn't have them shipped on your C&R, but I'd think they would make an excellent plinking/varment/small game carbine. (imagine the extra velocity from a 16" barrell!)


I'm thinking magazines wouldn't be a problem because you can use the 7.62x25 mags with a 9mm barrell in your CZ52 so maybe you could use 9mm magazines for the 7.62 Tok.



I'd also like to see some reproduction Broomhandle Mausers that could handle the pressures from the 7.62 Tok.


EDIT: I wonder if you can find semi auto versions of these lying around?
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/ppsh.html

EDIT 2: apparently so http://www.continet.com/montyipsc/Semi.htm

dev_null
June 29, 2004, 01:51 PM
As long as we're wishing, I'd love to see either a Luger or P-38 converted for this round.

- 0 -

Black Snowman
June 29, 2004, 02:25 PM
I'd like to see a double stack in this potent little sucker could be really neat. Personally, I'd like to see it in a full size CZ pistol. 15 rounds in a CZ 75B SA would be awesome. Use the heavier .40 S&W slide or even make a new upper entirely. Be more likely to get Tangfolio to do it, which would be OK I suppose.

David4516
June 29, 2004, 03:48 PM
7.62X25 is a very interesting round and I think it's a shame that there arn't more pistols chambered for it...

dev_null
June 29, 2004, 05:37 PM
*whew*

Glad we cleared THAT up! ;)

- 0 -

Josey
June 29, 2004, 11:14 PM
CZ, Tanfoglio, Llama/Firestorm and Armscor come to my mind as able to make more 7.62X25 handguns. The price should be reasonable also. An Armscor 1911 with a carbine conversion would be neat. I'd enjoy a Marlin Camp carbine in 7.62X25 with 30 round magazines, fixed stock and a mercury dead mule.

WonderNine
June 30, 2004, 02:47 AM
I saw a BHP chambered in this at a gunshow not long ago, $1400.00. Give me a CZ52.

Must've been a single shot.

I would LOVE to see a semi-auto carbine in 7.62x25

That would be nice if it was considerably smaller and lighter than an AK.

Personally, I'd like to see it in a full size CZ pistol.

I don't think there would be much point in a compact unless you want a .32ACP +P that'll set the target on fire and have the report of a .454 Casull snubnose.

mfree
June 30, 2004, 08:16 AM
Well, that 7.62x25 compact may not be as accurate or have the stopping power, but admit it.... when you've got a tongue of fire coming after you and a report that'll put a 44mag to shame, *anyone* on the wrong end would be changing their shorts, hit or not :)

As for me, I think a Hi-Ppoint carbine in tokarev would be nifty. The trouble with the tok cartridge though is that it's so long.... I don't know the OAL but it's probably 1/2" longer than a 9mm. I'll look it up when I'm feeling less lazy :) I'd wager something that would chamber 9x23/.28 super or 10mm would handle the length, but then you've got 10mm available, with means 9x25 is available, which is like tokarev plus .05" :)

pauli
June 30, 2004, 08:39 AM
sure would be neat in a levergun.

DMK
June 30, 2004, 12:38 PM
Something with a nice ergo angled grip, big adjustable target sights and a nice long sight radius.

Since I'm making a wish list, I'd also like a 7.62x25 revolver with a 6-8" barrel and adjustable target sights.

Some match ammo would be just swell also.

I don't know how iintrinsically accurate this round is (because I've only shot it out of a CZ-52, which is after all, just a combat pistol), but I do know it shoots very flat, being fairly light and fairly speedy.

Drakejake
June 30, 2004, 02:39 PM
I agree that the Tokarev is interesting round and that it would be great to have a modern auto that would fire it. But the CZ-52 apparently has a good design for controlling the recoil. The Tok round in a conventional handgun might be harder to control. I would like to see the 52 modified with a better trigger and better sights. I really like my 1953 CZ-52 but cannot shoot it accurately.

Drakejake

pauli
June 30, 2004, 02:56 PM
hmm, i suppose it would be an ideal revolver round, as the shoulder takes care of headspacing, and the other end is great for moonclips...

then again, if you want a firebreathing revolver, why not just go for .30 carbine and be done with it?

Okiecruffler
June 30, 2004, 07:53 PM
I've been giving some thought to a 10 inch contender barrel in 7.62X25. From the fireball my CZ52 throws it seems like the round could utilize a few more inches.

DMK
June 30, 2004, 07:54 PM
But the CZ-52 apparently has a good design for controlling the recoil. The Tok round in a conventional handgun might be harder to control. Interesting comment. Are you referring to the grip angle?

Moparmike
June 30, 2004, 09:06 PM
I too would like to see this in a lever action. How heavy could a HP be for this gun?

WonderNine
June 30, 2004, 11:44 PM
I'd rather have a nice light little semi-auto carbine with about a 16" barrel or less depending on what is the best tradeoff for the round, really don't know that...

Shane333
July 1, 2004, 10:19 AM
I've heard that the 7.62x25 has too much penetration to be a good self defence cartridge. What about a hollow point for this cartridge? Would that still have too much penetration?

Black Snowman
July 1, 2004, 11:07 AM
Well, some people say that any pistol cartridge above a .380 will over-penetrate. Particularly if you miss COM. That's one of the reasons my home defense gun is a .223 loaded with HP ammo.

I think the round would be find defensively, particluarly with a HP bullet, but just like anything you want to be careful of what's behind your target. Plus a CZ-52 isn't exactly my first choice of a defensive platform. Of course I can't afford my 1st choice in a defensive platform. There probably aren't any that are transferable anyway.

Shane333
July 1, 2004, 01:24 PM
Very interesting Black Snowman. I checked and Magsafe actually makes a defensive round for this cartridge. It has 52 grains weight and a velocity of over 2,100 fps. While I'm not sure, I think it is a pre-fragmented bullet that Magsafe uses.

Assuming the light magsafe bullet expands or fragments at all, it is going to release a lot of energy into a center of mass hit, even if it passes through an arm first. However, if it holds it's shape, the bullet is likely to punch through like a hot needle through butter. Once again, it's a shame there isn't more information on how well these exotic rounds really perform.

Clark
July 2, 2004, 09:45 AM
Three lengths of magazines:

1) SHORT, 9x19, 1.169"
2) LONG, 45acp, 1.275"
3) EXTRA LONG, 7.62x25mm, 1.381"


The reason no one makes a Tokarev ammo shooting pistol in the USA, is that the ammo is too long for the magazine, magazine well, frame, etc.



I have been going the other way, if the Tokarev and Star Super B have such long magazines, why not convert to 9x23mm?

In my opinion, the 9x23mm is a better self defence round than the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round, unless you are attacked by prairie dogs at 100 yards wearing bullet proof vests.

grendelbane
July 2, 2004, 11:59 AM
I have seen pictures of 1911's that were supposedly converted to 7.62 Tok, but like Clark, I fail to see how they would fit in the magazine. I understand the Chinese also converted some Sten guns, but that was a simple barrel change, and removing the back rib from the magazine to make room for the longer cartridge. I have seen one of these magazines at a gun show.

Average hand size has gotten larger in the last century, so more people should be able to handle a longer cartridge going through the mag well. I am almost comfortable holding a LAR Grizzly in .45 Winmag.

It is a shame some one does not produce 1911 frames and magazines just slightly stretched in length, to enable the use of longer cartridges. 7.62x25, 9x23 loaded long, .460 Rowland loaded long, I am sure that there are other possibilities I am overlooking.

With modern CNC machining techniques, the frame shouldn't be a problem. The magazines would simple to design. Perhaps we will see something like this in a little while.

Black Snowman
July 2, 2004, 02:37 PM
It is a shame some one does not produce 1911 frames and magazines just slightly stretched in length, to enable the use of longer cartridges. 7.62x25, 9x23 loaded long, .460 Rowland loaded long, I am sure that there are other possibilities I am overlooking.

That's just the kind of frame one would need for a wildcat I was thinking of developing. A 50 AE cut down to be just a bit longer than .45 ACP. At the same pressures the AE uses I guestemated you could get almost 1000 FPS with a 325 gr Gold Dot and 6+1 capacity in a gun the size of a full size HK USP in 45. That same frame would be a good size for a double stack 7.62x25.

Anyone want to fund such a crazy venture as cranking out a new line of high powered auto-pistols for people who want a little more than a 10mm :) You listening Colt? HK? CZ? Glock? SIG? anyone? anyone?

Josey
July 2, 2004, 06:19 PM
There is the 50 GI 1911.

The_Antibubba
July 3, 2004, 01:12 AM
The HI-Point Carbine in 7.62 X 25-crude, ugly, and oh so fun!

And it'd be, what-$199.95?

Somebody write to Hi-Point!!! :D :D :D

denfoote
July 3, 2004, 05:47 AM
As long as we're wishing, I'd love to see either a Luger or P-38 converted for this round.

Wish no longer!!!

Both the P38 and the Luger were chambered for the .30 cal. cartridge!!!


2178460-30 P 38 Postwar steel frame with black plastic grips. .30 Luger $ 2,695.00

Here is the link to the .30 Luger.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p30lug.html

C96
July 3, 2004, 02:19 PM
They are both 30 cal, but they are not the same cartridge.

.30 Mauser is not the same as a .30 Luger.

allan

dev_null
July 3, 2004, 07:01 PM
Not to mention I'm not about to pay $2600 for a pistol unless it's got *major* documented historical value.

- 0 -

41mag
July 3, 2004, 07:27 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong but couldn't a M1 carbine be converted to shoot 7.62x25?.30 carbine is just a tick longer yes?I know that its not a $100 or probably even a $400 deal.Just a thought.

Josey
July 3, 2004, 09:35 PM
Hmmmm? M1 Carbine in 7.62X25? Coo! I wonder if a Mauser C96 could be cast and then chambered for 7.62X25?

C96
July 3, 2004, 09:50 PM
C96's do shoot 7.62x25. You need to watch out for hot stuff. Casting a C96
would be possible if you could figure out a way to make all of the internals.

The springs alone would be a nightmare to produce, then fitting the parts. :)

I guess a cast frame and barrel housing might be possible. I don't think I would
want to be the one to test fire it.

A search here on C96 will get you a lot of very good info.

allan

Domino
July 3, 2004, 11:10 PM
I've heard that the 7.62x25 has too much penetration to be a good self defence cartridge. What about a hollow point for this cartridge? Would that still have too much penetration?

I've loaded up some 7.62X25 with some Hornady 90g XTP hollow points with about 13 grains of Accurate Number 9 powder. Gonna shoot them tommorow and see what I get, but I don't believe it would over penetrate as the bullets should be designed to expand at about 1600 fps.


Correct me if i'm wrong but couldn't a M1 carbine be converted to shoot 7.62x25?.30 carbine is just a tick longer yes?I know that its not a $100 or probably even a $400 deal.Just a thought.

Me and my dad discussed this and considering that the .30 carbine and the 7.62X25 are almost identical in actual power, it could be done. I would prefer the 7.62X25 cartridge but it is harder to reload. I would love to see a really lightweight, modern carbine in the cartridge. Something thats the size of the Kel-Tec or Beretta Storm but made of entirely steel. That would be awesome. Matbe when the AWB dies :evil:

Clark
July 4, 2004, 12:33 PM
Domino,
You are a CZ52 owner putting 13 gr. AA#9 with 90 gr bullet?

Between 2000 and early 2004 AA was publishing loads like:
85 gr 13.1 gr AA#9
86 gr 13.5 gr AA#9
93 gr 12.3 gr AA#9

Then very recently AA took those loads down from the web site and put up:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_handgun_standard_30cal.htm


AA Now in 2004:
85 gr 10.4 gr AA#9
86 gr 10.9 gr AA#9
93 gr 10.8 gr AA#9

AA reduced the CZ52 loads from 42kcup to 35kcup, as they may have found out that the CZ52 will fail American SAAMI type proof loads based on 42kcup Tokarev pressures.

What does it all mean?
You are skating on thin ice.

firearms_instructor
July 6, 2004, 12:40 AM
"I would LOVE to see a semi-auto carbine in 7.62x25 and I think there would be a market for one considering how many CZ52s and Toks there are out there."

Gentlemen, I have SEEN such a carbine based on the PPSH40. I've seen it in gunshows at the Ft. Lauderdale War Memorial Auditorium, and in Shotgun News. It looked like a fun toy, it took drum and stick mags. I'm searching for it now.

Clark
July 6, 2004, 02:44 PM
I am making a scope mount for it today, if I can get off the dime.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=399367

No imediate plans for a buttstock

41mag
July 6, 2004, 04:15 PM
Daaaaaaaaaang Clark!You gonna get a little fella to hold up the business end for ya?
What is that,about 23inches?
Looks awesome,I'd be curious to know velocity out of that!

Moparmike
July 6, 2004, 07:46 PM
Remember that revolver in "Batman" that the Joker had?:eek:

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