Down with Rimfire! AKA centerfire 22 pistol issues


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sevenpoint62mm
June 29, 2004, 10:16 PM
Went to the store today to buy my seemingly much researched Mark 2 only to realize it was a RF. II have a model 60 marlin LR I really like thats centerfire so I'd like to stay with CF for dual purpose ammo. What are my choices for a SA target pistol thats centerfire?

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BlkHawk73
June 29, 2004, 11:05 PM
:confused: :uhoh: Aaahhh...I got lost somewhere here... Ok, you say you "much researched" a Mark 2 but didn't know it was a rimfire? :scrutiny: :uhoh: (I'm guessing you're referring to the Ruger Mark II models.)
You then say you have a Marlin 60 LR (long rifle?) centerfire. :uhoh: :confused: Well, Marlin Model 60's are Marlin's semi-auto tube fed RIMFIRE rifles. These and the Mark II both shoot the .22lr cartridge. :p
Finally you ask about SA (single action) centerfire target pistols. Not sure what to reccommend since the first part of your post was a bit...off target shall we say. ;) unclear what you actually are in search of.

pauli
June 29, 2004, 11:37 PM
they've made a centerfire .22 cartridge more than once over the years, but there's no point, really. hell, as i understand it even jmb tried to replace the .22 - gave us the 25acp, which while it meets the purpose (a cartridge that size that feeds reliably in a small auto), sucks for actually hitting things.

what do you have against rimfire? it works rather well for small cartridges.

but, if you want a single action centerfire target pistol, you've got plenty of choices... 1911's, p210's... they generally fire rounds slightly larger than .22 though :)

don't get hung up on the primer end of the round. 22lr works well for what it does - cheap accurate round - and centerfire works well for bigger stuff.

RatFink
June 30, 2004, 12:00 AM
I'm really confused? :confused:

Marlin Model 60 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/selfLoading22wTubularMag/60.htm)

FMarlon
June 30, 2004, 12:14 AM
I am confused..... Marlin Model 60 is rimfire.

I even have one sitting 4 feet from me.

Fun plinker!

Plinkerton
June 30, 2004, 01:46 AM
I have a Marlin 60 too. It's definitely rimfire...

Either that, or it shoots rimfire and centerfire, and I had no idea...

I also have no idea where to get centerfire .22...:confused:

sevenpoint62mm
June 30, 2004, 02:05 AM
It is a rimfire? ,....

I've been shooting centerfire out of it for awhile just fine :eek:

How can that be?

Ammo is Winchester 500 bricks and CCI Mini mags

tc300mag1
June 30, 2004, 02:08 AM
the ammo you listed is rim fire not centerfire read the box :)

Powderman
June 30, 2004, 02:28 AM
sevenpoint62, go ahead and get the Ruger. The .22 LR is perhaps the most fun cartridge in the world to shoot. Almost no recoil, even in handguns, and more accurate than it has any right to be.

Take two handguns, one a centerfire and one a .22. How much would it cost to buy 500 rounds of CF ammo and plink away? A mint.

With a .22, if you're spending $25.00 for that brick, you probably have match quality ammo.

Get the .22 pistol.

WonderNine
June 30, 2004, 03:37 AM
:uhoh:


:scrutiny:


:what:



And that's all I got to say about that.

farscott
June 30, 2004, 07:13 AM
Yikes, this is scary. It also explains why new firearms frequently sport attorney verbage on the barrels.

As far as .22 centerfire handgun cartridges, the only one that I have used is the .22 Remington Jet. It has not been factory loaded for about fifteen years, but brass, bullets, and dies are readily available.

stans
June 30, 2004, 07:33 AM
:uhoh:

trapperjohn
June 30, 2004, 08:29 AM
to early in the day to sort through this one:what:

BluesBear
June 30, 2004, 09:57 AM
I've been shooting centerfire out of it for awhile just fine No you haven't.How can that be? It can't be. It's impossible. Ammo is Winchester 500 bricks and CCI Mini mags That .22 RIMFIRE ammunition. And it will shoot just fine in that MkII.

Look at the base of the cartridge. See a primer there? Nope you don't cause there ain't one.

Look at a fired case from your Model 60. See where the firing pin hit the rim? The priming compound is in the rim hence the name rimfire.

There is no such thing as .22 Long Rifle centerfire ammunition. Never has been. Never will be.

No Trespassing
June 30, 2004, 11:03 AM
Oh I get it...April Foo...

Uh, wait, it's June.

MJRW
June 30, 2004, 12:31 PM
It seems you do not really know what rimfire or centerfire are. They are both terms which define how the round is primed and therefore are characteristics of the round.

All .22 (short, long, magnum) is rimfire. The rim of the brass is struck to prime and ignite the powder. I think the only other rimfire out there currently is the .17. Everything else is centerfire.

Centerfire rounds have a seperate primer in the center of the bass of the brass. This primer is struck with a pin or striker which primes and ignites the powder.

ALL Marlin Model 60s are .22s and therefore use a rimfire round. The 500 round bricks are rimfire .22 because there is no other way that it would be.

DMK
June 30, 2004, 01:32 PM
If you weren't stuck on a semi-auto, there are some mighty fine .32 Magnum target revolvers.

Red_SC
June 30, 2004, 02:09 PM
http://www.tngbbs.com/smilies/anim_ROFLMAO.gif

Wil Terry
June 30, 2004, 02:25 PM
This has to rank with the ten most ignorent and stupid posts I have ever seen on the internet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where do these bozos come from???

Vibe
June 30, 2004, 02:50 PM
As Rosanna Rosanna Danna once said

"What's all this hub-bub over Endangered Feces? After all......


Uh?
Nevermind!"

Rimfire pistol!
Model 60 is a Rimfire Rifle
Those are Rimfire ammunition rounds.

"Well researched" my backside.

Is your REAL name D. Feinstein? or M. Moore?

(Hint - read more - post less)

pauli
June 30, 2004, 03:58 PM
guys, ease up.

Plinkerton
June 30, 2004, 04:21 PM
seriously... it was an honest mistake...

Okiecruffler
June 30, 2004, 08:48 PM
There is a 22mag CF, I want to say it's the 22 Cooper. But that's beside the point, Methinks the poster would benefit from a shooting class at a local range.

sevenpoint62mm
June 30, 2004, 09:06 PM
Wow, I considering rimfire is so common,.. :mad:

opps wait its not. Sorry my .22 knowledge isn't on par with everyones elses. :fire:

Theres a reason people moved away from rimfire long ago anyway, not sure why its still in use.

Okiecruffler
June 30, 2004, 09:14 PM
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until that last post. You need to start with firearms 101. First learn what rimfires are before you buy your first gun, then you may understand why the rimfire is still around.

Plinkerton
June 30, 2004, 09:53 PM
Man Okie... I was with you. I was even defending him, thinking everyone was being to hard on him...

But after the last post, I don't know what to say...

So I'm not gonna say anything...:scrutiny:

MJRW
June 30, 2004, 10:01 PM
I gave it an honest effort.

Majic
June 30, 2004, 10:06 PM
I for one would sure like to know what CF .22 caliber ammo he ran thru a Marlin 60?

I wonder if I can ream my 10/22 out to .22-250? :D

Let's move this poor fellow up to the front of the class. He's got a lot to learn yet.

Powderman
June 30, 2004, 10:13 PM
sevenpoint62, there are a lot of good people on the board.

All of us will normally bend over backward to help. We are not firearm "experts"--we still all believe that we have a lot to learn.

I have also found that we are willing to help--and help in ways most people only can dream of. Do a search or ask about "Steelharp", and rad the posts.

However, this is right up to the point where someone starts slinging BS on the board, and trolling.

If you do NOT know about guns, this is the place to learn.

If you are underage, but have a healthy interest in firearms, this is a great place to be.

If you want to troll, or are a wannabe, you REALLY don't want to be here.

So, what's it gonna be? Do you want to learn, or do you want to be schooled?

Your choice.

JohnKSa
June 30, 2004, 10:15 PM
Rimfire is EXTREMELY common. There are over 2 billion rounds of .22LR sold EVERY YEAR in the U.S. alone.

Then there is .22 Short, .22WMR, .17HMR which are also rimfire rounds--don't have annual sales figures on those.

I think it's safe to say that there is more rimfire ammo sold in the U.S than there is centerfire rifle and pistol ammo.

Majic
June 30, 2004, 10:16 PM
Theres a reason people moved away from rimfire long ago anyway, not sure why its still in use.
You may not be sure why the rimfire is still in use today, but so many people reconize why that it is the best selling cartridge of all time. More .22lr cartridges are sold every year than all other calibers put together.
The real sad part about all of this is that even though you don't understand, you in fact are using the cartridge also.

hksw
June 30, 2004, 10:41 PM
It is a rimfire? ,....
I've been shooting centerfire out of it for awhile just fine

How can that be?

Ammo is Winchester 500 bricks and CCI Mini mags

Not arguing with or against you, I've just have never seen this type of ammo before, i.e., CF Win in bricks and CCI Mini Mags. Could you please post a picture of them? My knowledge on guns is pretty average and I'm really interesting in seeing these.

JohnKSa
June 30, 2004, 10:42 PM
Well, THAT was entertaining.

If you click on the profile button on a post, one of the options allows you to look at all the person's posts starting with the most recent...

sevenpoint62mm
June 30, 2004, 11:09 PM
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until that last post. You need to start with firearms 101. First learn what rimfires are before you buy your first gun, then you may understand why the rimfire is still around.

According to what I was told in ROTC (which I'm not saying is the best info, but they did handle 22s daily) ammo was moved from rimfire to centerfire to due common misfires when rimfire ammo was dropped, smashed inside a clip, or otherwise jammed in such a way the rim might be impacted. Hiram Berdan supposedly invented the centerfire after seeing a man get his arm blown off while opening a wooden crate of ammo. While I never looked this up it only makes sense. Only reason I could see for keeping 22 rimfire is its cheaper to make and centerfire primers would be tiny, and therefore easy to miss. Also last I heard centerfire is more powerful. <shrugs>

I realize alot of rimfire is sold and, to my surprise, I guess I was a buyer. :D I bought 2 bricks of 500 and 2 boxes of mini mags when I bought the rifle, matching the ammo then. I thought it was centerfire, assuming rimfire was the rarer of the two.

On the subject of "common" 22 rimfire is far from common. Yes alot of cartridges are sold compared to how many calibers of cartridges are centerfire vs rimfire. Now think about how many types of rimfire ammo are in your local gun store vs centerfire. Just because you can buy 100 times more rounds of 22 rimfire vs 45 centerfire doesn't mean your selling more boxes, just more rounds.

As far as trolling I humbly asked a question to a knowledgeable community, got some good info but some people purely flaming. I pushed back for being flamed and now I'm a "troll". :mad: Just fyi when someone asks you for advice and you mock them don't expect gratitude. For those that straighten me out on my misinformation thank you very much. I didn't mean to offend anyone and I certainly never said I was an expert of 22s. BTW knowing or not knowing rimfire is hardly the measure of gun knowledge. :rolleyes:

JohnKSa
June 30, 2004, 11:29 PM
22 rimfire is far from common. That is absolutely false. It is certainly the most common type of rifle/pistol ammo sold in the U.S. and in all likelihood it outsells ALL types centerfire rounds combined. Just because you can buy 100 times more rounds of 22 rimfire vs 45 centerfire doesn't mean your selling more boxes, just more rounds. Huh?BTW knowing or not knowing rimfire is hardly the measure of gun knowledge.With all due respect, it is a very basic bit of information about guns and one that is, with good reason, considered to be "common knowledge."

Majic
June 30, 2004, 11:30 PM
Here's something for you to try. Go to the nearest store selling ammo. Look at all the ammo for sale on the shelves. You will see several brands of .22 rimfire ammo, packaged in different number of rounds per container, in different grades, with different bullet configurations, at different power levels.
Then choose another caliber and see if that caliber can match all the choices offered for the .22 caliber.
Now I bet you will see that the little round really is common.

BTW....here in the good old USA we don't even use the Berdan priming system even though it was developed here. We use the Boxer primer that was developed in England by Edward Boxer (a British ordinace officer).

pauli
June 30, 2004, 11:39 PM
glad you're still here. a lot of people wouldn't be, and fewer still without losing their cool.

as for commonality of rimfire at the ammo rack... when i've looked around, there's more shelf space for 22lr than any other caliber - usually including 12ga, which has a rather large size advantage. there are a lot of options in the rimfire arena, for a reason.

but, it's only for three things these days - plinking, varminting, and target shooting. it's not intended used for social work, at least not of hte euphemistic kind, which is where you're right - for 'serious' calibers, everything long ago moved to centerfire.

sm
June 30, 2004, 11:50 PM
I did this before - I'm going to post similar again.

I do NOT mean to offend you.

ONE MORE TIME -

We have a LOT of Folks on this Forum that we really do not know their true identities. Many folks, including myself, came from TFL ( The Firing Line). Some Folks have EXTENSIVE experience in specific areas, Many have Extensive experiences in MANY areas.

ADD those folks that we DO know their identities.

WE have folks that literally wrote the textbook on Anything one might choose to learn.

These folks are willing to share and teach. ON the other hand - many folks that wrote the textbooks, have YEARS of experience , and such have been run off this forum by persons that read gun rags, play video games and "think" they know more combat than the gentleman that teaches folks to survive combat in real life.

Many of us use the Search Function a LOT, both here and at TFL. Many questions have been asked over and over again. Many of us PM folks about questions.

I can only share what I know, and my experiences. I am a guy, I and will admit right here and now, Tamara, a lady knows more about many more things than I do. I bet a dollar I could beat her like a drum on the skeet field, most likely outshoot her bird hunting.

She would make mush out of me in a NY minute on firearm history,MOA on many firearms and such. I do searches for posts by Tamara " a girl" for gosh sakes to learn.

Tell you what else, I do searches under another "girls name", pax , another lady a mom is sharp in her own area of expertise. Pax will admit she has taken a shotgun course, not her deal, fine...we ( pax and I ) do use each other off line to learn from one another.

Where folks "bow up", get defensive and accuse folks of being a "troll", is when folks around here put out the extra effort and the new member turns a deaf ear and argues.

We had one fellow that "argued" that he had the "Ultimate Shotgun" and the "Ultimate Shotgun Load" was 3.5" 00 buck. We have folks that actually hunt , I'm talking Safari's and such. You cannot be an arm chair "hunter" and tell a man whom has hunted BIG animals that will kill, you, he is wrong. You will get your credibility questioned, lose respect of the membership, and not be paid any attention to.

My advice: Go attend a NRA basic firearms class. Find someone who will teach you from step one. Cancel any subscriptions to "gun rags". Do not play video games or watch John Woo movies.

Get a subscription to SWAT, I advised this before. The Publisher owns TFL, the editor or SWAT is a moderator here. There are MANY folks that acutally write and contribute to SWAT that are moderators and members here.

Use the search function , and read a lot. Now, if you have a question, may I suggest...

" I have a question about the history of the .22 rimfire. I have done some searches and I am not clear about something, could someone please clarify for me so I better understand ?"

The heavens will part, chamber music will be heard, and angles will bring cigars and Shiner Bock to that thread.

NO offense, just some friendly advice.

This explains why "I" deleted my threads in response to you in shotguns.
I know diddly about Professional Big Game Hunting, I know squat about C&R...I did run in 12 ga alone ~25k rds a year for many many years. If I can see it - it is dead. I earned that by doing it.

Regards,

Steve

sevenpoint62mm
July 1, 2004, 12:18 AM
BTW....here in the good old USA we don't even use the Berdan priming system even though it was developed here. We use the Boxer primer that was developed in England by Edward Boxer (a British ordinace officer).

Just FYI the boxer primer was developed about 12 years after Berdans design. Its generally assumed Boxer took Berdan's and Daw's ideas then built a better design from it. Many people feel Berdan is the father of CF even if it feel out of favor due to cost.

Huh?

500 rounds to a brick box of 22. 50 rounds to a box of 45. Of course you sell more rounds because its cheaper, but you sell the same number of boxes. Just so we're not comparing apples or oranges here.

in all likelihood it outsells ALL types centerfire rounds combined.

I bet once you count 12 gauge shells in the mix theres no way. Think about how many boxes of Dove & Quail get sold each year. :p Hey those are centerfire.

With all due respect, it is a very basic bit of information about guns and one that is, with good reason, considered to be "common knowledge."

Common knowledge if you grew up shooting 22. The first rifle I ever fired was a service m-16. The first 22 I ever loaded (not shot) was my model 60.
Whats common knowledge to one may not be to another. Some very knowledgable people here might not have a clue what five-seven rounds look like. Got to keep in mind when someone asks its because they don't know.

Anyway guys I think its the title that got everyone ticked off. I know many love their rimfire 22 rounds and now that I know both my model 60 and my soon to be new Mark 2 fire them I do too. I don't do alot with 22 as I assumed bigger is better for SD rounds so I only used 22s for possoms and the like. Now I'm seeing they give alot of bang for the buck in practice.

Powderman
July 1, 2004, 01:40 AM
I bet once you count 12 gauge shells in the mix theres no way. Think about how many boxes of Dove & Quail get sold each year. Hey those are centerfire.

The .22LR is by far the most used and purchased cartridge in the world.

This might be due to the fact that the .22 is a very low recoil cartridge. Moreover, almost any .22 will shoot rings around almost any rifle or pistol, bar none.

As an example:

I sent off a Springfield Armory Milspec to have it converted to a competition gun. This gun came back with the capability of achieving 1 1/2 inch groups or slightly better at 50 yards with GI ball ammo. Mind you, it took me the price of the pistol ($300.00 used), and almost $800 of work to get it to shoot that well.

On the other hand, I purchased a Ruger Competition Model, KMK-678 (6 inch barrel, slabsided, stainless). I mounted a 4x Simmons LER scope on it and took it to the range to practice and to determine which brand of .22 to use in it.

The absolutely WORST ammo I tried put ten rounds into 1 inch, sandbagged at 50 yards. The gun likes the following ammo:

1. Winchester T22, 10 rounds into 1/2 inch.
2. Federal American Eagle 40 grain solid, right at the same measurements.
3. Wolf Match Target .22, a hair above 1/2 inch, ten rounds at 50 yards.
(Note: Wolf Match Target is actually SK Jagd .22, made in Germany.)

What have I changed on that gun? I installed a Volquartsen wide trigger.

That's it. It's still box stock.

My new competition gun, which isn't a gun itself is a Marvel .22 Unit 1, mounted on a 1911 frame. This gun just flat out shoots! And, with the compensator, it is almost perfectly steady when firing. As a matter of fact, I had a sear problem with the frame it was mounted on, and the gun went full auto for 5 rounds. It was a real treat to first realize that I had fired 5 rounds--the dot did not move from the center of the target!

The second treat was to scope the target at 25 yards and see 5 clean X's.

22's are just plain fun to shoot! And, they are available in any flavor you like--from the inexpensive Ruger and the match grade IZH ar rock bottom prices, to electric-triggered free pistols costing over $3000.00 each.

sevenpoint62mm
July 1, 2004, 01:53 AM
Thanks for the info Powderman. My primary goal with the 22 pistol is purely back to basics pistol training. I just moved from a 9mm to 45 and the flash/roar is making me flinch. I figure I'd take the advise of a work friend who mentioned 22 is the cheapest practice there is.
With that said what is a cheap but match type ammo for target shooting? Something that groups well so I know that the group span is my accuracy, not the ammo's variables.

JohnKSa
July 1, 2004, 02:12 AM
what is a cheap but match type ammo for target shooting? Something that groups well so I know that the group span is my accuracy, not the ammo's variables.
He just listed 3 kinds of ammo that are capable of shooting ten rounds into half an inch at 50 yards!

The American Eagle stuff goes for $10 for 550 rounds at Wal-Mart.

Is that not cheap enough?

Or are you saying that you're better than that and you need more accurate ammo?

Or did you just not bother to read his post?

Plinkerton
July 1, 2004, 02:22 AM
No more being mean to him! :p

That Winchester Super X stuff should do you just fine. It seems darn accurate out of my 60.

sevenpoint62mm
July 1, 2004, 03:00 AM
He just listed 3 kinds of ammo that are capable of shooting ten rounds into half an inch at 50 yards!

He said this is the The absolutely WORST ammo . Did I request whats the worst ammo I can buy? :rolleyes: Or did you just not bother to read my post?

C'mon John I already said I was wrong. What more do you want?

Okiecruffler
July 1, 2004, 03:11 AM
but I'm going to try to be helpful here and not go into that.

Most people (everyone except myself apparently) have had pretty good luck with the Wolf Match Target, but it's kinda pricy around here at alittle over 3 bucks for 50.

Best thing to do is buy 50 of every brand and type you can get your hands on and try them all. 22LR's are notorious for being very individual about which ammo they like.
I've found that Aguila (either standard velocity or subsonics, depending on gun) shoots the best in my collection. And it's fairly cheap to get locally.
Good luck to you.

Powderman
July 1, 2004, 04:15 AM
A bit more explanation...

By mentioning the differences in ammunition, what I guess I was trying to say was this--that an off-the-shelf .22 handgun will usually shoot rings around a match-tuned expensive centerfire pistol.

The specific mention of the Ruger was to bring attention to the fact that you do not have to spend $$$ for match grade ammunition. The cheap stuff will do just fine.

American Eagle in all of its configurations is by far the most ubiquitous ammunition. It is usually available everywhere--and that includes some of the Mom and Pop stores in the rural areas.

Winchester T22 is kinda not too common--you'll have to find a larger store that carries it, or special-order it.

Wolf Match Target can be a bit pricey, and it's not too common anyway. You can find some at: www.miwall.com

Some of the honorable mentions are:

Winchester copper-plated .22, Hi-Velocity
Remington Target, 100 ct. box, blue label (just try to find some, though!!)
Federal 38 grain hollow point

If you get a conversion unit like the Marvel, I recommend Federal Gold Medal Match. Kinda pricey, but it does OK.

sevenpoint62mm
July 1, 2004, 04:34 AM
Your going to get a laugh outta this. I just got home and after this rather informative thread I decided to see what got me thinking I had a CF rifle. So I look on the rifle and no where does it say RF or CF (and I looked everywhere, even the removable rod). I looked inside the breach at the hole for the firing pin and noticed its rectrangular (sp) suggesting RF. I browse through the "manual" which is about 8 pages, nothing about RF or CF. This is the stainless model w/syn wood stock and tasco scope kit, bought at Walmart in 99. From what I understand Walmart has gun makers produce slightly cheaper models kinda like Sear-Roebuck did years ago but not sure if this is true.
This puzzles me so I look at the boxes of ammo. Two boxes I have left are a 50 pack of CCI mini-mags and a 500 brick of Remington Golden Bullet 22 (picture of rounds on the front with green trim, yellow and green on the back). Neither of boxes say CF or RF anywhere on them.
Considering 22s are commonly used by young shooters wouldn't they label the bullets/rifle since this is one of only two calibers still using rimfire? I mean even rifle calibers that come in only CF are labaled CF (looking at a box of 7.62x39 UMC and 30-06 Winchester, both marked CF). Just seems a little strange. I guess the defacto round for 22s are RF so its just not listed

EDIT: for spelling and grammer

JohnBT
July 1, 2004, 08:57 AM
You know, when you open a box of .22 ammo and look at one cartridge, you know what you don't see? You don't see a primer in the center of the case. No primer in the center = not centerfire.

Look at the bolt of a centerfire. The firing pin is centered in the chamber so it will hit the primer. The firing pin on a rimfire is offset to strike near or at the rim of the chamber because that's where the primer is in a rimfire.

Try some Eley or Lapua ammo. Get the good stuff. It's only $10 to $12 dollars for a box of 50 and very consistent and accurate in most guns.

John...who stocked up on Wolf Match Target when it was $15 a brick at the gun shows. The WME was only a bit more.

andrew17
July 1, 2004, 10:55 AM
500 rounds to a brick box of 22. 50 rounds to a box of 45. Of course you sell more rounds because it’s cheaper, but you sell the same number of boxes.

Just to clarify a bit, The smallest quantity you can buy 22rimfire in is boxes of 50.
The smallest quantity you can buy of say, 45acp in is boxes of 50.
These packs of 500 or 550 loose rounds are considered "value packs"or "bulk packs" and are a fairly recent introduction into the marketing world.
For years (and even now) the standard round count in one box of 22 rimfire is 50 rounds.
Before the introduction of the loose round bricks of 500, all bricks contained ten boxes of 50 rounds (and still do among the brands, which are sold, by boxes of 50)
Where I live, we refer to a box of 22 rimfire as 50 rounds while we call a box of 500 22rimfire a " brick of 22rimfire" weather it contains loose rounds or individual boxes of 50.

Vibe
July 1, 2004, 11:44 AM
This puzzles me so I look at the boxes of ammo. Two boxes I have left are a 50 pack of CCI mini-mags and a 500 brick of Remington Golden Bullet 22 (picture of rounds on the front with green trim, yellow and green on the back). Neither of boxes say CF or RF anywhere on them.
Where did you find the 50 round boxes of CCI Mini-Mags? The CCI website only lists this product in 100 round plastic boxes.

mfree
July 1, 2004, 12:24 PM
In Mexico, .22lr rimfire is all the people are allowed to have.

This explains why Aguila is such a big, diverse player in the .22lr market :)

JohnKSa
July 1, 2004, 01:00 PM
He said this is the The absolutely WORST ammo . You still haven't read his post because he didn't say that at all.

He said that the WORST ammo shot into 1" at 50 yards while the American Eagle shot into half an inch at 50 yards.

Besides that, the important thing in the post wasn't the relative merits of the ammo listed, it was that the WORST ammo STILL SHOT INTO 1" AT 50 YARDS.

There aren't very many folks who can shoot 1" groups at 50 yards with a pistol. I think it's very safe to say that if you were one of them you would already know what ammo to use...

Majic
July 1, 2004, 02:40 PM
I don't do alot with 22 as I assumed bigger is better for SD rounds so I only used 22s for possoms and the like. Now I'm seeing they give alot of bang for the buck in practice.
Now with this statement is where you should learn to specify a cartridge and not use the caliber in general. The M-16 that you said was the first rifle you ever fired is also a .22 caliber firearm.
If you say the .22lr (a cartridge) then people can better understand your remark as a rifle/carbine chambered in .223 ( like the M-16/AR-15) makes a fine defensive firearm.

Carlos Cabeza
July 1, 2004, 06:53 PM
7.62, dude get that Mark II you were talking about ! They are highly accurate, lots of fun and probably the best selling rimfire semi auto pistol in the U.S. maybe the world. I assure you that you will not regret it ! 2 bricks of .22 won't last very long though, you'll have to go and get more. :cool:

grendelbane
July 1, 2004, 10:53 PM
I have always liked the 5.5 mm Velo-Dog cartridge myself.

It is a center fire cartridge for revolvers which gives .22LR equivalent ballistics. It is designed for shooting dogs from bicycles.

Clever people, the French!:D

BluesBear
July 2, 2004, 11:39 AM
The oldest continously produced ammunition in the world is the .22 short cartridge.

The reason .22 Rimfire ammunition has lasted for so long because it is still the BEST at what it does.

One of the hottest new rounds of the past 10 years is the .17 Hornady Magnum. It already has become more successful than any previous .17 caliber round. And why is this? It's because for what it was designed for rimfire works just fine.

I am glad that you learned so mush abour Messrs. Berdan & Boxer and the reasons they invented their respective priming systems. Too bad you don't seem to be able to learn as well here. Many people feel Berdan is the father of CF even if it feel out of favor due to cost. What makes you thiunk cost has anything to do with that? It's the ease of reloading that decided that. Which is why boxer prevails in the USA and other countries where reloading is common and why Berdan is so common in the rest of the workd where reloading is frowned upon or outright outlawed.


sevenpoint62mm said;
He said this is the The absolutely WORST ammo . Did I request whats the worst ammo I can buy? Or did you just not bother to read my post? Or did YOU not bother to read his post?
What Powderman said was clear to me.

Powderman stated:
The absolutely WORST ammo I tried put ten rounds into 1 inch, sandbagged at 50 yards. The gun likes the following ammo:

1. Winchester T22, 10 rounds into 1/2 inch.
2. Federal American Eagle 40 grain solid, right at the same measurements.
3. Wolf Match Target .22, a hair above 1/2 inch, ten rounds at 50 yards.
(Note: Wolf Match Target is actually SK Jagd .22, made in Germany.)
Now to recap... He stated that the WORST ammo he found would still give 1" groups. Now look at the group sizes for the three brands he recommended.

Now sevenpoint62mm, can you not read or just not do simple mathmatics?


Once again Wil Terry has summed it up rather succinctly.

treeprof
July 2, 2004, 03:23 PM
Some of y'all deserve a medal for your persistance and patience here; courage above-and-beyond the call under a withering barrage of inanity.

sevenpoint62mm
July 2, 2004, 07:54 PM
BluesBear who reloads 22? Come on, your just flaming without anything to flame about. Boxer is cheaper to produce so it became the de facto. Thanks la~ bye

Plinkerton
July 2, 2004, 08:10 PM
I don't think he is talking about reloading .22...

Okiecruffler
July 2, 2004, 10:13 PM
This is starting to make my head hurt.:banghead:

But, you used to be able to buy primed, unloaded 22mag brass from at least on maker to roll your own.

JohnKSa
July 3, 2004, 12:26 AM
BluesBear who reloads 22? Come on, your just flaming without anything to flame about. Boxer is cheaper to produce so it became the de facto.
But Berdan is the de facto in Europe. Are you saying it's cheaper to produce Berdan in Europe?

Also, I would like to point out that you completely missed the base with this answer. The discussion of Boxer/Berdan can have absolutely no relationship or connection to reloading .22 since Boxer and Berdan are CENTERFIRE priming methods and .22 is a RIMFIRE cartridge.

I may be way off track here, but does anyone else keep thinking of mustang45? M.O. is very similar...

sevenpoint62mm
July 3, 2004, 01:27 AM
But Berdan is the de facto in Europe. Are you saying it's cheaper to produce Berdan in Europe?

John read http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/ballistics/propellants.html


Also, I would like to point out that you completely missed the base with this answer. The discussion of Boxer/Berdan can have absolutely no relationship or connection to reloading .22 since Boxer and Berdan are CENTERFIRE priming methods and .22 is a RIMFIRE cartridge.

:uhoh: Take a deep breath and relax. I'd like to point out reloading 22s was never even mentioned before the Berdan/Boxer relationship was talked over. As far as I know reloading 22 is a waste of time considering the low cost of 22 rounds. The Berdan/Boxer comments have nothing to do with reloading and where you got that I'm not sure.

As far as mustang45 I'm not sure who he is or why you feel the need to make this thread personal. From the PMs you've been sending me I sense you got some anger management issues. If this discussion is too much for you feel free to stop reading.

Okiecruffler
July 3, 2004, 01:31 AM
I was starting to think the same thing. Syntax is similar, and this is sure heading the way of the infamous "Guns in rest stops thread".

sevenpoint62mm
July 3, 2004, 01:58 AM
Okies well I'm done here. I got some really good info and learned alot about rimfire 22. Thanks again all, plan on getting that Mark 2 this weekend. :)

Plinkerton
July 3, 2004, 02:04 AM
Good luck. Have fun. :D

JohnKSa
July 3, 2004, 03:01 AM
From the PMs you've been sending me I sense you got some anger management issues.From reading this, I sense you have some serious reading comprehension issues.

Here are the PMs I sent you. I have removed all of your responses because I don't think it would be right to post what you sent me in private.

Before you accuse me of modifying these you should remember that the moderators can verify the content.

Re: rimfire thread
I didn't say I wouldn't read it, I said I wasn't looking for a reply.

The reason I said that was because if you got it--if it had made sense to you--then what I said would have been all you needed to hear--and if you didn't get it--if it didn't make sense to you--then there would be nothing more I could say that would get the point across.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sevenpoint62mm wrote on July 1st, 2004 07:29 PM:
---response deleted---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JohnKSa wrote on July 1st, 2004 03:37 PM:
I never called you a screw-up--I said that you could BECOME a screw-up--just like anyone can if they don't deal with their screw-ups properly.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---quote deleted---
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And yet you typed a good half page trying to convince me of "the facts" after I told you I wasn't even looking for a reply...

Come on kid. Like I said before, the only one you have a chance of convincing is yourself.

I'm very sorry to have wasted your time. And mine too, I suppose.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sevenpoint62mm wrote on June 30th, 2004 11:51 PM:
--response deleted---

[quote]
JohnKSa wrote on July 1st, 2004 05:07 AM:
Ok, chief, here's the problem and it has nothing to do with the title of the thread. It's painfully clear that 24 hours ago you had no clue as to the practical difference between a rimfire round and a centerfire round. But NOW, you're an expert on the sales figures for rimfire AND shotgun shells.

You might even be right, but it doesn't matter. You missed the whole point and there's a good chance you are going to keep on missing the point.

You screwed up. It happens to all of us--it's just part of life. I have a good memory and sometimes when there's nothing to do, my screwups play back in my head for me. Trust me, there are plenty of them for me to review.

But there's a difference between screwing up and BEING a screw up.

Do you know what to do when you screw up? You admit that you screwed up--even if only to yourself--and then you go on with life. You try to do better next time.

If you keep trying to make it look like you didn't screw up, or like your screw up was no big thing--all you're doing is continuing to screw up. If you do that long enough then you BECOME a screw up. You can't ever move on because you wrap yourself up in each screw up until you can't ever leave it behind and go on with life.

You know what's worse? When you keep arguing that you didn't screw up, the only person you have a chance of convincing is yourself. It's truly wasted time--worse than wasted time because not only is the time gone, the only possible lasting effect is your self-delusion.

Keep asking questions and don't be afraid to admit it if you screw up.

Also remember that when you ask a question, sometimes it's going to be elementary, and sometimes someone will jump on you over it. That's ok, because that's THEM screwing up, not you.

One more thing. There are a lot of really smart folks on this forum. There are a lot of folks who aren't so smart but know a lot of useful things. This is a really BAD place to hang out if your thing is trying to convince people you know more than you do. It's a great way to screw up.

There's nothing wrong with starting at the beginning--everyone does. And I'm not saying that you know nothing. I'm just saying that the beginning is where you are NOW. Don't feel bad about starting where you are now, and don't pretend you're farther along than you are. It never works out for long.

I'm not looking for a reply back from this. Maybe it makes sense to you, maybe it doesn't.

Good shooting,

John

P.S. I've had good luck with Federal Classic .22LR ammo. Quite frankly, a good pistol and decent ammo will outshoot you unless you're a truly outstanding shot. I've seen a stock Mark II put 10 rounds of non-match ammunition into less than an inch at 25 yards. Wolf .22LR ammo is pretty good too. It's made by an Austrian or German company unlike the rest of the Wolf line that is Russian made. But don't go spending a lot of money on match ammo--most folks won't ever shoot well enough with a pistol to make it worth the extra expense. Start with the Federal Classic and you'll be able to tell when you need better ammo.

Powderman
July 3, 2004, 06:11 PM
But, you used to be able to buy primed, unloaded 22mag brass from at least on maker to roll your own.

Believe it or not, I think you still can.

I saw in a recent issue of Handloader magazine (I think) that you can buy a type of .22 "basic" brass to handload. I'll try to find it.

BluesBear
July 4, 2004, 11:03 PM
For someone who purports to know so dang much about priming systems how in the heck did not know the difference between centerfire and rimfire?

As far as I know reloading 22 is a waste of time considering the low cost of 22 rounds. That is the second dumbest thing you have said in this thread. Rimfire ammunition is NOT reloadable. Period. End of story.
Reread paragraph one above.

Interesting link you posted, however, if you had read it completely you would have known that rimfire was not reloadable.



JohnKSa, Remember that Mustang 45 was not just one single person. It was several people writing under the same nick.
But you are right this is heading the way of the infamous Rest Stop thread.




Sorry but I really don't care about or have time for stupid folks. Folks got a right to be wrong, stupid or both. (sm THR 05-06-04)

Some theories are neat, plausible and wrong. (Grump THR 06-16-04)

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. (Baba Louie THR 09/29/03)

Even if the other person is absolutely and completely WRONG, they've usually got a decently thought-out argument to back up their clueless posts (M.Irwin TFL 07-12-2001)

JohnKSa
July 5, 2004, 01:04 AM
Remember that Mustang 45 was not just one single person. It was several people writing under the same nick.I didn't know that.

But that's very interesting... I thought that the PMs didn't match the writing style of many of the posts.

sm
July 5, 2004, 01:21 AM
Is this a good time to discuss the 32 ga shotgun shell?

I'm looking at a spent hull...

The dealie in the middle has a dent - so that be a centerfire or what? :D :D

Anyone have a pipe cleaner handy and a napkin...I'm laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes and part of my Reese's is under the "&/7" key...hold up <pop off key, clean chocolate, snap key back on> ...okay all better now. :D

JohnKSa
July 5, 2004, 01:47 AM
Is this a good time to discuss the 32 ga shotgun shell? Sure--also a great time to talk about Glock model 40 pistols (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89304) , and new S&W pistols chambered for .38 Super (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89737) that won't handle Cor-Bon ammo.

sm
July 5, 2004, 01:52 AM
I thought so.
I deleted all my responses to a thread in shotguns for obvious reasons.
Remember that Mustang 45 was not just one single person. It was several people writing under the same nick. I didn't know that either...then again that is the reason I use the search function a bunch along with PM and emailing you folks.
The older I get - the more I realize what I don't know.

Okiecruffler
July 5, 2004, 02:26 AM
"Remember that Mustang 45 was not just one single person. It was several people writing under the same nick."

I was in the dark about that one too, although it does explain why his (or their) arguements took so many turns. Much like this one actually.

sevenpoint62mm
July 5, 2004, 11:45 PM
John when are you going to move on? And how does a store mislabeling a product have anything to do with this?

As you said in your letter Keep asking questions and don't be afraid to admit it if you screw up.

Also remember that when you ask a question, sometimes it's going to be elementary, and sometimes someone will jump on you over it. That's ok, because that's THEM screwing up, not you.

But there's a difference between screwing up and BEING a screw up.

I admitted I was wrong, when are you going to admit you were just as wrong? By your own defintion your screwing up. So are you going to stop being a screw up and help, or are you going to be screwed up? Are you going to live by your logic or keep on your current path.

To quote you from elsewhere

That forces us to one of two conclusions.

1. You are telling the truth. In which case you are intentionally trying to irritate people.

2. You are full of it.

Either way, the result is the same. You are to be ignored.

Kinda hard living up to your own words isn't it? Lets drop this and start making these post worth something.

JohnKSa
July 6, 2004, 12:27 AM
how does a store mislabeling a product have anything to do with this?I'm sure it's totally irrelevant--no doubt that's why you accused me of being homosexual when I asked which store it was... ;)

BTW, since you're referring to my PMs again--which of them showed anger management issues?

sm
July 6, 2004, 01:28 AM
Okie -

Thank you for posting!

Your sig line...well ...err...just post more ok? :D

sevenpoint62mm
July 6, 2004, 03:35 AM
I guess you decided not to follow your own advice after all.

EDIT:

BTW I never called you gay or implied otherwise. Perhaps you read it that way <shrugs>. Maybe I'm not the "militant homophobic" here after all.

BluesBear
July 6, 2004, 06:15 AM
sevenpoint62mm scoffed;
I never called you gay or implied otherwise. Perhaps you read it that way <shrugs>. Oh yes you did and I think most of us read it that way as well. In this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89304) you most assuredly did imply.
In that thread sevenpoint62mm cooed;
John I'm flattered you follow me from thread to thread. I'm sure your also happy I live near you but I don't swing that way. Cruise for a friend somewhere else.


I am very surprised the Mods haven't already put an end to this farce.
However, I am sure once they stop laughing they will.

nondescript
July 6, 2004, 08:43 AM
This is an "interesting" thread
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

sevenpoint62mm
July 6, 2004, 12:18 PM
Nice try on pulling the focus off John being a hypocrite by his own definition. I'm still waiting for him to admit hes wrong since I hear he knows when to face up. The more you dodge it the more it all sounds like BS.

sm
July 6, 2004, 12:50 PM
Hold Up!

Attack the argument - not the person.
We do NOT do personal attacks on this forum - period!
Take it to PM for that.

Now one may question a reference, a link, the source of information. One may ask questions as to level of experience. One may after establishing a reporte' with certain members poke fun at, tease or razz all in good fun. We use smiles and such to show emotions and such.

Do NOT personally attack the individual poster!!

As far as I am concerned, I have pleaded, posted twice that YOU don't really know at this time the Expanse of knowledge and experience on this board.

Folks here will go out of their way to help and assist. IF...IF the person is sincere , and willing to listen. IF the person has a question , needs further clarification these folks will do so.

Become argumentative, start attacking folks and not the arguement...folks will not respond.

I deleted my threads in shotguns as to maintain the integrity of this forum and what integrity I have on this forum.

sm
July 6, 2004, 12:52 PM
I have to question why in the first place the 3AT was taken all the way down in the first place.

Heck in the years I've had and the tens of thousands of rds I've put through my Keltec P-11 ,I haven't taken mine all the way down personally.

The only reason my P-11 was taken all the way down when It was new, was to investigate and see how the darn thing was made. My gunsmith buddy wanted to see.

It has not since that day.

I was asked to T&E the P-11 . This I did and decided to keep the pistol, my first and last polymer gun.

I have not cleaned the bore of mine since the fall of '03. I clean the chamber and extraction. I field strip , inspect and maintain from CCW or whatever.

I ran 750 rds through it in 2 days recently. NO problems at all.

I did field strip and toothbrush the innards, clean and dry the chamber, extraction, inspected, lubed and put back together. It was time to clean the mags, since I dropped these in dirt, and wet grass.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

More guns are broken, more gun bbl are worn out from improper cleaning, takedown and re-assemble than from shooting.

Stephen A. Camp
July 6, 2004, 01:13 PM
The personal attacks will stop. If they do not, we will find the membership numbers here a bit lower.

Disagree all you want but speak to the question or issue.

This thread is closed.

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