[twoblink]

There was one thing that was still nagging me about the safety system of the Steyr M series... Last night, I had a dream about explaining the Steyr to Oleg while we were out shootin' in the woods of TN, and he asked me the question..

And I answered him... :D So my subconscience answered what my conscience couldn't.

So the nagging question: For those who don't know what I'm talking about, do a search on TFL, I'm too tired to type that much (again).

The one thing that I did not know was, if there is a slide/frame separation, and the firing pin "hops" the firing pin safety, how the Steyr would prevent a Unintended discharge..

The answer is proper placement of the rails on the frame. If you have two sets (which the Steyr has) either it's a total failure of both sets (in which case you are SOL without a paddle anyways) or else it's one set..

If it's the forward set, then you won't get an AD.
If it's the aft set, the forward set rails are set far back enough in that the angle of the firing pin attack would be so steep as to miss the primer on a well seat bullet.

So now I am at peace with myself and my gun. I have achieved inner harmony. I am one with my gun..

[arinvolvo]

Wow...inner harmony is a good thing. However, I have been rather confident of the Steyr's design and safety from day one.

You have an excellent pistol...it is good to know that it is now appreciated (by you) as much as it should be. ;)

Stay safe.

[twoblink]

Well, I can tell you that most don't "believe" the Steyr is safe.

I have to believe that Steyr, Bubits, etc.. engineers et al wouldn't let a pistol go into production that they deem to be unsafe...

Also, I have to roll my eyes at the armchair engineers who talk about gun design without looking at systems of designs, instead of individual components..

Indy 500, NASCAR etc.. all their wheels are held by _ONE_ nut... no secondaries... Yet despite that, I still maintain they will hold together better then those on your car, which has 4-6 nuts. Why? When you have only 1 critical piece, you can overengineer it to death. I think this is the philosophy Steyr has taken, and I stand behind it.

[tetchaje1]

Good post, twoblink. :)

I can just feel the tension building, though... ;)

[arinvolvo]

OK...Im going to start a riot with this question....but so be it.

Please someone explain to me if the Steyr is or isnt as safe as say a glock?

I dont know much about gun design or mechanics....but does that steyr have some sort of firing pin block?

[spacemanspiff]

whats a glock?

sorry, i couldnt help being a little evil. my only input is that one of the two was designed with a manual safety, and that makes me feel safe to carry the Steyr with one in the pipe. if i had a glock i probably wouldnt carry chambered. but i would say the same of any gun that doesnt have a manual safety. its just how i am. i know millions of others out there are 100% comfortable carrying chambered with no safety, thats their choice.

[Handy]

Arin,

The issue, if any, is that the striker doesn't have an intercept or pin block, like all other combat guns. It is also sufficiently cocked to fire, according to Steyr owners that have experimented with their guns. So, in essence, the design is similar to turn of the century pocket guns, like the Browning Baby, so: If the sear or striker hook breaks, it will fire.

If you believe those components are built like race car lug nuts, then there isn't an issue. (Do race car lug nuts EVER fail?)


That's all I'm saying on it, accept to remind whomever that if you don't think the Steyr is sufficiently cocked to fire, try the test yourself before you open your mouth.

[twoblink]

Handy,

Race car nuts DO fail, but the failure rate is much lower then that of regular car tire systems.

Second, I don't think the "take the barrel out, put a bullet in it, pull the firing pin back to where it sits, and then release" as a "it is sufficiently enough to fire" statement is a fair one.

The engagement of the firing pin and it's block, is at 45 degrees. A "better trigger" that is MUCH smoother is if they met at vertical angles, and there would be no additional cocking and a "glass breaking" feel of disengagement on a vertical mating. But the reason they are not, is because given F=mA, and you are engaged at a 45 degree angle, F would then = mA - COS(A), which would mean the 45 degree is a friction reduction on the firing pin. The remove that and then testfire is not fair, as it was not designed to be such.

To take any single component out of it's environment and say it doesn't perform like it should, is to not be fair to the system as a whole.

To say an AMD chip is slow, because you run windows instead of unix, is to be unfair to AMD..

Yet another Steyr safety system discussion... Same familiar faces...

Also, I would have to formally disagree with you, the Steyr pistols are NOT like the turn of the century pocket guns. There's a world of difference.

Arinvolvo,

The Steyr pistols have a firing pin block, that acts also as a cocking device. The firing pin is under tension, but it's forward progress is blocked by the firing pin block. The firing pin block is seated in the "drop safety" rail, which prevents the firing pin block from moving in any direction but rearward. When it moves rearward about 2.5mm, then the "drops" off and the firing pin is free to move forward, not unlike the action of a Mauser.

Contact between the firing pin and the firing pin safety is big and strong, it is what keeps it cocked.

Assuming the different scenerios:

the parts are worn; well, if that's true, "hold tension" is less then cocking tension, and so if the engagement is not good, it wouldn't have cocked the firing pin in the first place.

Slide/Frame separation.. This was the one that bothered me the most, because I didn't know about this one.. But I've answered that now with the start of this thread.

warnout parts, sufficient to cock, but frame and slide are a little bit loose, and so will give a little room to wiggle and jiggle. Hmm.. This must have been the most troubling to the engineers. But that's why the mating of the firing pin and firing pin safety is at a 45 degree. F=mA, where F is enough to fire the round in the chamber. According to Handy, and the Mel's...) which I'll buy, from what Steyr says, the firing pin is cocked at 75% tension at rest. That said, it is my understanding that F= (mA - COS(A) ) will not fire. Thus, the engagement at 45 degrees, it acts as a geometric reduction, which is just ingenius, as this incurs no additional parts, but adds additional safety to the system.

It is my hope that I will design my own pistols later on, and so I try to study all safety systems.

Glocks, despite "perfection" and 3 safeties, have been known to AD. So have 1911's, regardless of grip safety etc.. If the gun and all it's parts are not up to specs, then safety goes down the drain real fast.

Some people don't feel "comfortable" with the Steyr's safety system. I highly advise those not to buy them. I feel comfortable with it, and so I own one, and will probably buy a second one.. YMMV.

Handy, The M1A, SKS, etc.. are MUCH less safe then the Steyr. They have a freefloating firing pin. On the SKS, if there is gunk stuck, you can have a rapid fire situation. On the M1A, a slam fire will cause all the rounds to empty (going full auto), just like in the SKS; for what it's worth. I have owned all three at one point in time, I've since sold my SKS...

[bpisler]

BTW nascar still uses 5 lug nuts per wheel,Indy car,IRL,F-1 and some others use 1 large nut per wheel.

[arinvolvo]

Ok so bottom line...tell me this...

Assuming that I keep my Steyr up to spec...cleaned regularly, inspected for wear, corrosion etc...Are you comfortable saying that this pistol is INCAPABLE of firing in the "locked and cocked" condition? And even if the sear were to give, and the firng pin was let free, the pistol would still not fire?


All of the physics and whatnot are nice...but you need to dumb it down for me, and the rest of us. Do we have to worry about an AD if the gun is dropped?

One more question, given the knowledge that the designer of this pistol was a former Glock employee, why would he have not instilled similar safety mechanisms in the steyr line of pistols?


I will have my CCW in a few months (NV takes 120 days to issue)...and i want to know if I should have any concern carrying my steyr cocked and locked....Or would I be better off without a round in the tube? I would much rather carry "ready to fire"...but my primary concern is my (and other's) safety. I dont want to flop down into the seat of my car, and pop a cap in my own @ss. (literally)

[mons meg]

Shame on you twoblink, for sullying the new forum with our TFL dirty laundry. ;)

[tetchaje1]

Like I said...people just can't stay away from this powderkeg... ;)

This is going to be a thorn in everybody's side, I know, but I hate it when disinformation is spread. Sorry, Handy.

IMO, and in Twoblink's opinion, the Steyr is safe. IIRC, Handy has never owned a Steyr and has never disassembled a Steyr and investigated the mechanism. Furthermore, Handy has never had correspondence with Mr. Bubits and Mr. Aigner, the Steyr designer and chief engineer to discuss the firing mechanism.

No, the Steyr doesn't have a plunger-type firing pin block. So what. People don't complain about their Series 70 1911s or their Pre-B CZ75s now do they. I'm sure that older BHPs don't have a plunger-type pin block either, but I am unsure on that one. Besides the Steyr does have a firing pin block, but that block is mated with the sear mechanism. If you are not comfortable with the design, fine. Don't buy one. Just make sure that you don't buy any of the other fine Series 70 1911s, Pre-B CZ75s, or older BHPs either. It just leaves more for the rest of us.

The ATF thoroughly tested the Steyrs and couldn't make it fire without pulling the trigger. That is good enough for me when you couple that with the knowledge that I have about the firing mechanism.

No trying to stir up old rivalry here. I greatly respect Handy on these forums, but he and I just don't see eye to eye on the Steyr issue.

If you want pages and pages of arguments on this, do a search over at the TFL.

[twoblink]

The "Steyr Safety for Dummies" version.

#1) Keep ALL your firearms in great condition, check it regularly for damage, and wear and tear and make sure all parts are within spec.

#2) Keep a gun in a HOLSTER when not in use. "Mexican carry" will get you "Mexican dead".

#3) Don't use what you don't feel safe with. If you have ANY doubts about the safety of the gun, SELL IT AND BUY SOMETHING ELSE.

If you have done the 3 items above, then to answer your question, yes, the Steyr is a safe pistol to carry with a round in the chamber. If you violate any of the 3 above, then no, they Steyr is not a safe pistol.

Bubits was a former Glock employee. Aigner, is the head of Steyr Engineering, I don't know the Steyr design team personally, although, I have corresponded with both Bubits and Aigner before. But I don't assume you get to be head of Steyr Engineering and not be somewhat of a gun expert.

There are a few questions one has to ask himself:

#1) First, would Bubits and Aigner, KNOWINGLY produce an unsafe gun?

#2) We without Formal gun design experience, and probably don't have as great of an understanding of engineering and physics as Aigner, think we see "obvious" safety concerns; is that the case or do we "not see" not-so-obvious design reasonings?

#3) Given Bubits history with Glock, do you think he would build his own pistol LESS safe then at least the glock?

Gunsite's 1911 is built without the firing pin safety as far as I know. It makes for a mushy trigger, and they just don't think they need it.

CZ added a firing pin safety, because of requests for warm fuzzies, not because they thought the original design wasn't good enough..

Which brings me to the other strange thing..

"Cocked and Locked" a la 1911, HK etc..

If the guns are so safe "cocked" then why do I need to "lock" them?? A sig, hk, 1911 etc.. won't fire unless a trigger is pulled, if this isn't the case, then you are saying that all these in SA are just seriously in danger of AD's???

The Steyr design is the first I've seen that is designed as a system, very few if any independent parts, it's a system of parts working together.

The first mention of Steyr safety concerns, I did the same thing. I love the pistol, but if safety is an issue, then the gun is out, I would have sold it the next day. But as I examined the gun more (if you want to read, check TFL, I might have the record for longest post, 3 sections long!!) I thought the design was genius.. They simplified and simplified until they system either does what it was designed to do (go bang when you pull the trigger) or else do nothing.

I am almost done with my personal webpage, and I have considered it for a while, and I think I will add a section on the safety of the Steyr on my webpage.

If you do have any questions, or would like to talk about it offline, feel free to email me.

I have studied the Steyr so much that I feel sometimes short of Bubits or Aigner, I might have spent more time on studying the safety of the gun then anybody else.. Does that mean I know 100% of everything about the gun, certainly not, but does that mean I know enough to feel comfortable? Yes.

tetchaje1, powderkeg? It's more like C4 :D

[spacemanspiff]

i also am comfortable carrying either my steyr m9 or m40 chambered in the holster.

[Oleg Volk]

My gripe with the M40 safety is with the actuating lever.

It is inside the trigger guard (wrong place, IMO), it has to be turned off by the tip of the index finger (little leverage) and it cannot be verified with certainly while wearing gloves. I would carry an M40 with the safety disengaged for these reasons.

[spacemanspiff]

that reminds me of somethingelse with the safety, but i'm not sure how or why. i've encountered it only while dryfiring the m40, never the m9. sometimes during dryfire, cycling the slide activates the safety. this may not happen during live fire, but its something to watch out for. its unsettling to attempt to pull the trigger and it wont budge, even if i'm just aiming it at the tv.

[twoblink]

As much as I love the gun, I believe that the Steyr, as is the M1's violate safety rules.

There should be NOTHING in the trigger well, except the trigger!! The fact that you have to stick your finger in the trigger well to disengage the safety, bothers me quite a bit. That's why I never use the safety.

It's fine the way it is, without the manual safety, think glock and you will be fine.

[mons meg]

One of the reasons I bought my Steyr was the funky safety. The flip side of the coin is that your finger should also never be in the trigger well until you are ready to pull the trigger, therefore the safety should only disengage when preparing to fire if you follow good handling rules, right?

Plus, put it in a good Kydex holster and there is no way for the safety to acidentally get toggled off by rubbing up against my love handles. ;)

[Isaiah4110]

Is somebody making a custom kydex for the M9 or are you using a generic? I really haven't seen any accessories yet.

[twoblink]

Bladetech..

I called them up, they made me a custom holster for my M40 (Left handed!!) with a speed notch, and got it to me in 4 days!! Kydex rocks, and the holsters are 10x better then the Kydex stuff I see from Uncle Mikes. Also, with a 2 mag pouch. Top quality.

[arinvolvo]

Remeber people...you should only remove the safety when you are ready to fire...And if you are ready to fire, then it is a good thing to have your finger in the trigger well...is it not?

If I am pointing my pistol at a BG...my finger is going to be on the trigger....period.

I would not point my pistol at anyone (BG) unless I was ready to fire at them....so anytime I use my pistol in self defense...I imagine I will have my finger on the trigger.

[tetchaje1]

I agree with Twoblink that if I were to ever carry my Steyr(s) that I would do so a la Glock and avoid the manual safety. It is easy to flip off with your trigger finger, but I would be concerned about doing so in a stressful situation.

When I get a pistol safe to make my M9 into my house gun, I will keep in in there with the manual safety on. It is either that or my 629 3" with Glaser Silvers... :evil: ...or my SIG 220TT... :evil:

...so many to choose from, so little space in those quick safes. Probably a good thing, though, so that I wouldn't get confused about which one of my favorites to choose if somebody was in the house... ;)

[twoblink]

tetchaje1,

I've decided, Shotgun, .357Mag Revolver, and then a Semi-Auto... in that order as far as preferred homeD.

Now if I were to catch the thief that broke into my house.... the final vote is still...

VEGETABLE PEELER!! I'll leave you with that thought....:fire: If he's lucky, he'll be arrested by the police only. If he's not, then I will be the one that catch him.

I hope when I get back to the states, Steyr's got a distributor picked out, and I can get an S40 to match...

[tetchaje1]

Twoblink,
I am actually moving away from the shotgun mentality after having my trusty Winchester 1300 Defender in the bedroom closet for so long. My reasoning stems from being able to get a pistol into action so much more quickly, and being able to be much more maneuverable. The shotgun is ungainly with the 18.5" barrel and full stock, and I hate pistol grip stocked shotguns. ( A 14" entry shotgun would be ideal... :evil: )

I figure that probably the best combo is to have a pistol ready so that you can cover yourself while the Mrs. is getting the shotgun out. Once the shotgun is ready, take up defensive positions until the cavalry arrives.

I've also thought about going to my 16" Bushy because of increases in perps wearing soft body armor. Go with a 68gr (or higher) load and you can get some really impressive wound profiles. Now I just want to get my hands on some of those new 100gr rounds that were tested in AR15.com... :evil:

[arinvolvo]

STEYR has an importer!!!!! ZANDERS!!!!

And they also have a distributor!!! Davidsons!!!!

AAAAAHHHHHHH

[twoblink]

The fastest pointing weapon (for me) as far as HomeD is an M1Carbine. I don't know as far as what people say about the .30Carbine round. Unless you live in some serious mansion, the distances we are talking about are just fine. The bullet is about the same in performance as a 357Mag, and so I think that's plenty for most homeD uses.

If you have someone breaking into your house wearing BODY ARMOR, you are then dealing with SERIOUS threats and doubt your 1 man defense is going to be ample..

I don't see anything about Zanders being their importer on their webpage..?? ( mean Zander's webpage.. Zander's sporting goods right??)

I really like the 357Mag snubbie as homeD. No out of battery threats, no tap-rack-bang for jams, and nothing to worry about. If you needed more then 5-6 shots, you should have reached for a rifle!

I really like my bottom eject shotgun though, although too long, I can tell you, when people hear the "chichick!" of a shotgun... if they are stupid enough to stick around..

:what:

[arinvolvo]

Two blink...Zanders sporting goods (GZS) is now the importer...My new M9 says so....but Zander's website has yet to reflect this.

[Tropical Z]

Knowing very little about these guns,if youre willing to use the manual safety do all these auto fire issues go out the window? Design or no design issues?

[arinvolvo]

In the way that they are talking about it..NO...Using the manual safety does not effect their argument....However...That stil doesnt make them right.

I, for one, have spent some time recently studying the design of my steyr, and I am now fully confident in the design of the steyr.

[Handy]

Z-

The manual safety does nothing to affect the sear/striker relationship. If there is a problem, that's where the problem lies, so no, the manual safety would have no impact on that concern.


By the way, Twoblink, I've been trying to keep out of this, but talking about the 45 degree sear engagement just clouds the issue. It doesn't matter what the engagement angle is on two static parts if one breaks. The engagement angle only comes into play once the trigger parts are set into motion. The primer test is a perfectly valid simulation of what happens if the striker hook or sear break, at rest.

Feel free to disagree, but at least keep it honest.

[tetchaje1]

Handy, I think that the 45 degree sear mating angle is referring to if the slide were lifted off of the frame to the point of the firing pin catch slipping from the sear catch. In this case, the 45 degree angle would reduce the striker tension enough to prevent a discharge.

Good luck breaking that part though...

[Handy]

Voids, corrosion, incorrect heat treatment, impact hardening, work hardening, bad alloying.

I've seen plenty of beautifully engineered and exectuted bits of metal break under normal use.

[tetchaje1]

Voids, corrosion, incorrect heat treatment, impact hardening, work hardening, bad alloying.

Back to the same argument again about manufacturing defects versus design flaws. I agree with you that these things can weaken and degrade the service life of any component in any system. It all comes down to maintenance, inspection, and retirement after the useable service life is exceeded.

[spacemanspiff]

you know, despite all the controversey surrounding Steyr M & S pistols, theres a LOT of interest being shown in them. its like everyone else has said: you either love the Steyr design or you hate it. theres little room for fence riding.

[Handy]

Spiff,

Just to be clear, this is not an emotional thing for me. I think that the majority of the M design is outstanding. My interest in the safety aspects came from reading Twoblink and Tetchaje's explanations of the guns workings and asking questions. Steyr could "fix" the M to my satisfaction with the modification of one or two parts to provide a modicum of redundancy. I see it as an unfortunate design oversight. Unfortunately, safety oversights should not be tolerated.

[sturmruger]

At the rate this is going it will be one of the most heated debates I can think of. When we get done debating this lets move on to more interesting debates like 9mm VS .45 or something like that.:D

On a more serious note I realize there are a few safety
features on the Steyr M and S series guns that are less than ideal. The bottom line is, what are the real world dangers of such safety features not being present? I think we can all agree that the Steyr design is not going to discharge while the gun is sitting in someone's holster. So the real fear is gun will drop out of someone hand in exactly the correct way that the gun would discharge when it hits the ground. I would be curious to know how many Steyr handguns are actually in the US. I would bet there are not more then 75K just going by the serial numbers. I think there is allot more danger from throw away guns such as Lorcins, or Jennings. Steyr is a premium quality firearm that just happens to be very inexpensive at the moment. The chance of someone dropping it and it AD'ing is so low I can't see why this is worth debating.

[twoblink]

First, the old Browning HP's don't have firing pin safeties, nor did the CZ 75 A's...
I don't see/hear much about them going full auto..

Handy, first part, referring to the 45 degree mating. If you have a slide/frame separation, the 45 degree ride will prevent a firing. Pulling the firing pin straight back will not be a fair comparison...

Second, the cocking mechanism _IS_ also the firing pin, and when you do the math, which requires more force, pushing a firing pin back, or holding it in place? Of course pushing the firing pin back, and as such, holding it in place requires less force, and so if there's enough engagement to push it back, how can there not be enough engagement to hold it in place once it's cocked? The answer of course, is if it slips, but then, while a non-blocked firing pin _might_ have enough energy to detonate, one that loses energy to friction via F = mA - COS (A) will not I suspect.

Handy, you are being unfair to call it an oversight. I've EMAILED the designer, and he said it was not an oversight, it was designed this way on purpose... Which mean you (and maybe I) don't understand 100% the rationale behind the design.

I asked him if he considered additional redundant safeties, and he said yes, and the were removed. So obviously, they were removed because (to him) they clearly did not provide the additional "warm fuzzies", and the pistol is safe as is.

[Handy]

Twoblink,

There is no point having a technical conversation with you if you are going to compare the M striker (has a spring in back) with a CZ inertial firing pin (has a spring in front). It's a worthless comparison. A striker is not a firing pin, it is a linear hammer.

More issue clouding BS. The gun may be safe, but just talking about it with its hardiest adherents brings great pain.

[twoblink]

Handy, you've taken what I said wrong, I am not comparing a hammer system vs. a spring tensioned striker system.

What I am saying is, the lack of what seems to be a second safety system does not mean it is seriously dangerous (in the real world, not in lab "what-ifs")

I realize that a lot of people have reservations about the safety of the gun, again, I always recommend these people not buy a Steyr. Buy a grock.

I for one think that a kb! in a glock's unsupported 6 o'clock chamber is more likely then an AD in a Steyr.

There are little design "secrets" that I find out the more I study the gun.

What I have also noticed is that I had to think "outside the box" because the design is so radical from conventional designs.

When a designer tells me that the gun originally incorporated other safety systems, but were found to be unneccessory, I have to then believe that he has thought of the same things we have, (he's been designing guns a lot longer then we have!!) there are reasons... After studying the gun, I am beginning to see the reasons why..

[Handy]

Again, your example are so bad that there is no point. A CZ-75 has multiple passive safeties, like the hammer being down, a safety lever if it's cocked and a half cock notch. The half cock notch is the most comparable item to WHAT THE STEYR DOESN'T HAVE!!!!!

The CZ was already redundant against sear breakage. It also can't fire if the slide comes off.

If you want to use examples, find some that apply.

[twoblink]

There are a few problems that I am thinking about..

A firearm is either "safe" or it isn't. If additional safeties makes a gun "more safe" then the original safety was "less safe"?

If the firing pin of the glock breaks, the gun WILL go off. The drop safety is in the rear, and the firing pin block is a TAB, not a block in front of the line of firing!!

So a of the components of the firing pin on a glock breaks, it will fire, just like a Steyr. The line of sight from the firing pin to the primer is not blocked in the glock, not in the M1A, not in the M1Garand... None of these have a blocked system.

If it's a case of "breakage" then then gun is safe...

[Handy]

Twoblink (deep breath),

This:

"If the firing pin of the glock breaks, the gun WILL go off. The drop safety is in the rear, and the firing pin block is a TAB, not a block in front of the line of firing!!"

is totally, completely wrong. You have the mechanism completely backwards. You have OBVIOUSLY never looked at the inside of a Glock slide.

http://www.brayleyballistics.com/items/parts_glock.gif

Part "9" is the drop safety, located in front of the striker and just aft of the breechface.

[tetchaje1]

Handy's just being beligerent because of the healthy pasting he's getting from Tamara in his "Browning design SUX" thread...

Gotta kick the dog down the chain, heh? ;)




How many people have bought your BS about "extensively studying the design" of your Steyr when you obviously know so little about how even the most similar pistols work?



Funny. You make so many comments about the Steyr, yet YOU have never torn one down yourself...

You are so nasty in your respose to Twoblink (who may or may not have made a mistake -- I have never torn down a Glock, so I cannot comment...), yet the hypocrisy astounds me here...
:barf:

Oh, and if the Gluck is so infallible with the plunger design, why do people get bursts with them if they are dirty enough... :confused:

[Harold A]

I am new to Steyr but am not to to guns. I just got a Steyr M40 and think it is the best thing since sliced bread.

I have owned several 1911 style guns in the past. In each series 80 colt the first thing I did was buy the little piece which negates the firing pin safety. I did not think it was Necessary, I was comfortable not having it. The 1911 did not have them before and I felt like it did not need them now.

Now on to the Steyr, if you don't think the gun is safe don't buy it. Every gun if not taken care of or mishandled can go full-auto or have an AD. I don't understand what the big debate is all about. The gun is safe plain and simple, are there safer guns maybe who knows. Is any gun perfectly safe, NO. The more safeties and such you build into a gun the more unusable it becomes. Every gone I have ever owned people have an opinion on, if there was one perfect gun that shot well and was perfetly safe and could never have an AD or any other problem everyone would own one. It is just preference.


Not I will step down from my soap box.

[twoblink]

Ok... Let me go ahead and address the glock's safety system..

You have 3 safeties:

Trigger safety, Drop safety, Firing pin safety.

Trigger safety; similar to that of the Steyr. Dual fixed rotary axis, if one doesn't move, the other one won't. I have had these things stuck before when I shoot, but that's beside the point. Ok, the trigger safety is easy enough.

Drop safety. Here's a quote from Glock's website "There is no possibility in this position of the firing pin being released." Ok, UNLESS THE FIRING PIN TO DROP SAFETY ATTACHMENT POINT BREAKS. Ooops... The fact that they state that there's no possibility..... just is amazing piece of BS marketing.

Firing Pin safety: This seems to be the crux of the discussion here... The plunger..

Let me give you a scenerio... The firing pin strikes the bullet, blowback force causes the firing pin to break, or the firing pin just breaks (it happens) the plunger resets, and the firing pin is now stuck (as the head broke off) in FRONT of the plunger, between the bullet and the plunger. This is how you get full auto.

I do not believe that the plunger is directly in the line of the firing pin, it just shrinks a channel so the firing pin is blocked. It CANNOT BE directly in front, because if it were, raising of the plunger (the bottom part is fatter then the rod itself) would still block the firing pin. Thus, the firing pin, if the tip did break off, MIGHT still hit the primer... This is how there have been AD's despite 3 safeties on a Glock.

Which comes to the other part about the glock safety system.

Given F=mA, and you do vectored force math, if the trigger safety is stuck, and the gun is dropped at a 45 degree angle, (towards the rear and up) then the gun WILL FIRE. Because what the glock manual and website says is faults, the trigger does not need to be pulled to disengage the drop safety and the firing pin safety, they are disengages when BOTH TRANSFER BARS ARE MOVED. This can happen when the gun is dropped at the correct angle with enough force..

In fact, come to think of it, if the gun is dropped at the correct angle, and the trigger pin is weak and it breaks, the gun WILL GO OFF.

Given that William Bubits worked at Glock, he noted this and told Glock... who rejected his recommendations..

Given a correct angle blow, with enough impact, the Glocks will go off.

That being said, do I think a Glock is safe? If you keep that finger off the trigger, and check your gun regularly for defects and wear and tear, it's fine. Perfection? Hell no, not even close. Is it safe as far as I'm concerned... yes. 100% safe? Don't kind yourself; if you think a gun is 100% safe, you aren't familiar with the Heisenburg uncertainty principle...

Is a Glock safer then a Steyr? Nope. Both will go off if impacted with enough force and at the correct angle, wear and tear excluded. Can that be said about every gun, yes.

Is my Steyr MUCH safer then my M1A as far as drop safety? MUCH... Do I love both guns? You bet. Will I buy another Steyr? Yep. I hope other people who fear the Steyr not buy them, more Steyr for me!

:cool:

[spacemanspiff]

sooo, ummm, is the steyr *safe*?


:neener: :evil: :D

[mons meg]

Think Charlie Brown's voice.... gooood grief.