Shot and Skulls

[Badger Arms]

I was wondering what others thought about the effects of shot on a skull. Yes, I'm speaking of a home-invasion or personal defense scenario where it is advantageous to shoot the perpetrator in the skull. A few situations I can think of where you'd do this? Well, maybe the perp only presents his head as in peeking above a windowsill while outside, pointing a gun at you? Maybe he's wearing body armor or you suspect that he is based on the bulkiness of his clothes or jacket?

So, deciding to shoot at the skull, how effective are birdshot pellets going to be on the skull? If you hit dead-on, you're likely to create lots of blood, blindness, and an all around mess, but if the shot column hits off to one side in a grazing blow, how much damage will the blast do?

Of course, you should consider factors such as range, pattern size, shot size, etc. What do you think?

edited for grammar and spelling

[sm]

Contact distance it is a bloody mess. Payload and shot column enter brain. I have seen this in real life , one a 12 ga the other a .410. Victim - DRT.

Past contact distance, I have seen the victim complain of a bad headache, and pop the pellets out like zits from cheeks, nose, ear lobes...

I have caught flak before for stating I often load up with slugs. Perp with Heavy clothing, high on dope, maybe even a vest. Stopping an immediate threat , means just that.

[armoredman]

SHot placement is the key - the only one shot fight stopper is a 155mm shell.

[HSMITH]

Birdshot will bounce right off the head past a few feet. Figure the energy of each pellet, you will be lucky to see 10 lb/ft of energy per pellet. Consider that the 38 special is often maligned for bouncing off skulls when it possesses about 300 lb/ft of energy in most loadings.

On soft tissue birdshot is viscious, on bone it is pathetic.

[sm]

12 ga , dove and quail load, # 8 shot ~ < 5 feet , entered Occipitial bone.

.410 , 3" shell of # 7 1/2 shot, ~ < 4 feet , entered above Zygomatic arch into Temporal bone.

[Dave McCracken]

Forensic pics I've seen show the cranium missing from contact distance shots.

Some years ago I had to put down a deer that had been hit by a car and had both front legs broken. I used high brass 6s,IIRC. Distance was about 10 feet. I aimed for the base of the ear, quartering on. Effect was instantaneous, damage severe.

In the unlikely event of a home invasion where the perps are armored, I'll take head shots without a qualm.

[Badger Arms]

Not just armored, Dave. I'm not playing Rambo at home, there are several instances when I might believe a BG would need a head shot. If said BG has only presented his head, for instance, of if they are shielding themselves with a child or shorter person. Up here, they will often be wearing thick coats. If you put two charges of buckshot into the torso and the perp doesn't go down, you might want to consider shifting your aim down or up.

[Spinner]

sm wrote:
12 ga , dove and quail load, # 8 shot ~ < 5 feet , entered Occipitial bone.

Occipital bone .... that's the back of the head isn't it? Was that the result of an intentional shooting or unintentional?

Not sure I'd like to see shotgun induced head wounds ..... I'm picking it'd be real messy.

Sorry to hijack this thread but ....

I know a lot of people here on these boards talk about home defense and stuff, but how many people could or would drop the hammer on another human without a split second hesitation? I have no doubt that those who have trained for this or who have thought long and hard about it and are absolutely dead serious would ..... without a doubt. But I have to say that tin cans and clay birds are far removed from a human target and unless you've seriously thought and/or trained for it, I wonder how many would pause just a mite.

Maybe when the adrenaline is flowing and the threat is immediate the self preservation instincts would kick in, but to be 100% honest, I really don't like the idea of shooting somebody. I'd like to think I would if I needed to (I'm damned sure I could, but only 90% sure I would), but I honestly hope I never have to find out.

I understand that the military switched to targets that featured the image of a person on them or that were generally shaped like a person because soldiers who were completely adequate marksmen on a range, who could nail a paper target without any problems at all would "spray and pray" when it came to the real thing because on a subconcious level they didn't want to shoot another human ... at least not until the threat got really in their face and by then it was often too late. The human shaped targets are supposed to desensitise people to the idea of killing another human.

Anybody ever thought seriously about this issue? How do you deal with it?

Spinner

[DBR]

Anyone who would threaten imminent death or grevious bodily harm to me or my family is no longer a member of the human race. They are a feral animal. Particularly if they have broken into my home to do it.

[HSMITH]

Spinner, I have faced that decision before and did not hesitate. Luckily both times he stopped as I was in mid-press and I did not have to shoot, it is entirely possible that they knew that I was in fact willing to kill them and that is what stopped both incidents but I can't say for sure. One ran and the other did not speak english so even though detained I could not converse with him about it, he sure looked at me strangely.

That decision must be made now, not when you have to defend yourself. If one was to wait to make the decision until then he might not survive it. I am prepared to shoot as many people as necessary to prevent harm to me or any other innocent person. I hope I never have to, but I know damn good and well I can and I will if I need to.

[Spinner]

DBR, I understand where you're coming from .... you attack me (or mine) and you've given up your rights as a human being.

Thanks for those real world data points HSMITH. I guess LEOs have to deal with this everyday, but its not something that a lot of people think about on a daily basis. I'm willing to bet that most people (and probably every single person) who have a CCW have considered that they may need to draw their weapon and shoot somebody who poses a significant threat.

I'm thinking that its a very good thing to be proficient with your chosen HD weapon and the more trigger time the better, but when the SHTF you default to your training, so who trains by shooting human-type targets?

Is it really that important .... maybe just being very familiar and effective with your chosen HD weapon is enough and your instinct for self-preservation takes over?

Spinner

[Gordon]

Old "shotgun Steve" who had half his face blown off,including complete nose, for years hung around our little village until recently when he was found dead from alcoholism. He got shot from 3 feet away with 12gauge birdshot twenty years before, in a fight!! he had birdshot stuck in skull but only a couple got thru, lowering Steves IQ some and making his personality mean as a rattlesnake! If somebody would have used a RS; 'Shotgun Steve ' would not of added to local color!:D

[sm]

Spinner my friend,
I do not know the perspective in New Zealand. You and I have visited in regard to gun laws and such.

As you know I am in the Southern US. We have a history and culture invovling firearms - including the use of firearm for defense.

In the CCW classes here in AR we have to have a LEO or Attorney give the legal perspective portion of the CCW.

The mindset of the person is very important, Carrying Concealed is a big responsibility. These subjects, questions and legalites are repeated often.

Yes we have had folks that decided they could not at this time use a firearm in defence. Some had some soul searching, sought advice from clergy, and personal attorneys. Some never did go through with the CCW license, many more did make the decision and did obtain the license.

We also had to make the determination the student should not be allowed to obtain permit. Mental ability, attitude, and other instable behaviors.

Me - I was a kid and had to defend myself and sibs. I have been in other situations involving " I was in fear of my life - that of others".

I know what my mindset is, I have been there as a kid, and as older civilian.

[Badger Arms]

On the subject of actually shooting somebody, I agree with what was said earlier. I would sooner shoot a human being than a bear or other animal were I to believe my life or that of my family were in danger. The fact that I have not had occasion to do so does not lessen my resolve a bit. It is the home invader, the thief, the rapist, the murder, who hesitates more often for fear of punishment. So long as there is Jeopardy, Ability and Means, there is no hesitation. Of course, you must identify your target prior to firing in your home, but the Jeopardy, Ability, and Means are assumed if the person is in your home uninvited.

[MrMurphy]

I always shoot silhouette targets. Some people just can't do it. It's not been a problem for me, in the two "almost" instances where action was immediately imminent except they got smart and left.


I've seen suicide by shotgun, at contact distance, the head was literally vaporized by birdshot (scraping brains off the ceiling, everything jaw up was gone) and I've personally known a lady who was hit in the head by #7 shot at 10 feet and aside from a little scar, you can't tell. That was thirty plus years ago and she's just fine. She only got half the pattern ( door half open) but nothing hit her other than on bone and didn't get through.

With birdshot, unless you hit an eye or open mouth or something, it's unlikely to get through. Buckshot will do more damage.

[R.H. Lee]

My go to middle of the night HD weapon is a 12 ga cylinder bore shotgun. IF I ever had to use it, I would no doubt be shaking like a dog sh#@ting peach pits. I have complete confidence that at an accross the room distance, I would not only hit the target COM, but that the resulting damage from #4, or #1 buckshot would immediately stop the threat.

[Correia]

Spinner, I'm an instructor. I always try to address that topic with my students. It is like how as parents we teach our kids about drugs. Don't wait until you are tempted to decide if you are going to do it or not, decide before hand so that you are already preprogrammed to do the right thing when it comes up. Shooting in self defense is the same way. If you are unable to come to the conclusion that you are willing to shoot somebody, then you should not carry a gun.

That said, I've never shot anybody, and really hope I never do. :)

[Spinner]

Thank you for the honest responses ..... I expected at least somebody from the "ultimate" crowd to respond with a "hell yeah, I'm just gonna blow that mofo's a$$ away!" which shows that not only are they relying on their "ultimate" shotgun to do the work for them, they haven't really thought the whole thing thru either.

When I trained in jujutsu many years ago my instructor told me to never pick up a weapon unless you knew that you were going to be able to use it. He also believed that to sucessfully defend yourself against a weapon you had to have some understanding of it. His personal philosophy was to never carry a weapon, but he could turn a ballpoint pen into something lethal. We trained with street weapons - broken bottles, knives, sticks, baseball bats, hatchets .... even when you know you're just training having someone come at you with a hatchet gets your full attention .... and the first time I attacked a training partner with that broken bottle was actually kinda terrifying. You get used to the idea thru training though .... you train your mind as you train your body.

I need to train my mind (and body) for these specific circumstances.

Spinner

[jamz]

When I trained in jujutsu many years ago my instructor told me to never pick up a weapon unless you knew that you were going to be able to use it. He also believed that to sucessfully defend yourself against a weapon you had to have some understanding of it.

Spinner,

This is exactly what most of us here on THR say about the issue. :) Glad to see that we are on the same page.

As to jujistu training, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that you believe in self defense, and that self defense goes hand-in-hand with a lot of maturity and restraint. Same goes for defending yourself with a gun, in the case of people who aren't physically capable of jujitsu or just don't have the time to learn it and become proficient. (as in, immediate threat).

-James