Would making a gun slamfire be considered turning it into a machine gun?


PDA






TheOtherOne
July 5, 2004, 03:02 PM
I've recently been cleaning a cosmoline soaked Yugo SKS and have made sure to get the bolt really good because everyone has said there is a risk of a slamfire and the gun emptying the magazine if the bolt is gunked up inside.

Anyways, I've never had that problem but it has got me thinking about how fun that might be to try out. :) Aside from the safety concerns, would it be illegal to make the firing pin stick forward and thus cause it to slam fire?

If you enjoyed reading about "Would making a gun slamfire be considered turning it into a machine gun?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
R.H. Lee
July 5, 2004, 03:06 PM
When I saw the title of this thread I knew "Yugo SKS" would be included in the text. My Yugo was doubling until I got ALL the cosmo out of the bolt. I wouldn't want uncontrolled slamfires as an added feature.:what:

oldfart
July 5, 2004, 03:08 PM
"...would it be illegal to make the firing pin stick forward and thus cause it to slam fire?"

Yes. Accidents happen but if the intent to make it run off a full magazine is there it wouldn't be an accident, would it? Now that you've aired this subject out on a public forum it might be difficult to prove you just had an "accident".

jefnvk
July 5, 2004, 03:11 PM
Pack the bolt with cosmo and tell them you didnt know how to clean it. But, if youre just going to stik the pin forward, be ready as soon as you let the bolt slam shut...

wasrjoe
July 5, 2004, 04:09 PM
You're making a dangerous open-bolt machine gun. Just learn to bump fire, it's safer and legal.

Trebor
July 5, 2004, 05:31 PM
Yes, it would be illegal. And, your post here would show intent. I reccomend you delete the original post for multiple reasons.

BTW, it would also be very unsafe.

TheOtherOne
July 5, 2004, 05:45 PM
Yes, it would be illegal. And, your post here would show intent. I reccomend you delete the original post for multiple reasons.That's why I asked. I wouldn't want to do anything the government doesn't deem good for me.

manwithoutahome
July 5, 2004, 07:18 PM
I had a Norinco slam fire (actually, it fired off two rounds then went full auto).

Scared the Hell outta me. Then I reloaded (it uses 20 or 30rd mags, depending on what I bring) and it did it again after three single shots.

I got the "high" out of full auto but had to change my pants. Turned out that the firing pin had bulged abit under heat (hey, I don't know, that's what the smith told me) and wouldn't retract.

Changed it out.

Not safe, kinda fun, really illegal.

Clean out the cosmo.

Wayne

DMK
July 5, 2004, 10:03 PM
Would making a gun slamfire be considered turning it into a machine gun? Probably not, but it may turn it into a bomb. Do you have any idea what firing a rifle "out of battery" can do to you? I suggest you research this while you still have two working eyes to read and a functioning brain to reason with.

4v50 Gary
July 5, 2004, 10:38 PM
Furthermore, methinks deliberately altering a gun to slam fire so as to make it full auto is something that would merit a visit from kind officials of the ATF. I'd rather not have those benevolent Civil Servants call upon me to inquire about modifications.

Want full auto? Do it with a muzzleloader. Roman candle it - one shot and boom - boom - boom - boom - boom - boom... until it's empty. The Belton firing system was something like that but the lock mechanism slid back to the next shot. But if you get a misfire and stuck balls, :uhoh:

Roc_Kor
July 5, 2004, 10:52 PM
What is cosmo?

And when I get an AK in a week (SAR or WASR), how can I prevent it from slam firing?

*Is still a total Newbie to guns. The AK will be my first.*

TheOtherOne
July 5, 2004, 11:13 PM
What is cosmo?

And when I get an AK in a week (SAR or WASR), how can I prevent it from slam firing?Cosmoline is a grease that alot of old rifles are heavily coated in to keep them from rusting. You shouldn't have to worry about the AK. They are new rifles and will just have a nice thin coat of oil on them. All you'll need to do is field strip them and run a few patches down the barrel.

Roc_Kor
July 6, 2004, 05:03 PM
Ok.

Now that I realize it, the AK will usually only slam fire if the ammo is bad. Like if the primer is too soft and the bolt hits it to chamber it and the bullet fires. (Something like that.)

Cosmoline
July 6, 2004, 05:14 PM
It would self destruct. That's firing out of battery and is an extremely dangerous defect. I don't know if BATF regs on what constitutes a Class III full auto firearm, but I believe your hands would be gone long before the feds got too worried. Imagine the primer getting ignited before the round is in the chamber and you'll have some idea of the magnitude of the potential destruction and how close it would be to your hands--with only a thin sheet metal receiver to stop it/add shrapnel to it.

griz
July 6, 2004, 05:39 PM
Another reason NOT to do it is that you couldn't turn it off. Even if it worked perfectly and always fired in battery, it would always empty the mag even if you dropped the gun and ran away. Bad idea.

ctdonath
July 7, 2004, 02:10 PM
Legally speaking:
More than one round fired per trigger pull = machinegun. Period.

BATF will throw you in jail for 10 years for that.

We're talking about an agency that has ruled that getting one to double-fire ONCE is a MG - after 8 hours of "tests" with a machine shop and a couple rolls of duct-tape.

TheOtherOne
July 7, 2004, 03:46 PM
Legally speaking:
More than one round fired per trigger pull = machinegun. Period.What about in the case of no trigger pull? The "not safe at all" aspect aside, you wouldn't even be pulling the trigger -- just merely releasing the bolt.

ctdonath
July 8, 2004, 11:55 AM
BATFE has a very loose definition of "trigger", essentially "thing which acted upon causes the gun to fire".
"Just releasing the bolt" amounts to "trigger" - just with a heavy pull, long travel, and positioned oddly.

carpettbaggerr
July 9, 2004, 12:22 AM
We're talking about an agency that has ruled that getting one to double-fire ONCE is a MG - after 8 hours of "tests" with a machine shop and a couple rolls of duct-tape. What case was this?

And someone built a triggerless Sten once -- still a machinegun
Since Title 26 USC defines a machine gun as "a gun that can discharge more than one bullet through the single pull of the trigger" that, all you had to do is to eliminate the trigger and then it wouldn't be a machine gun right??.....Full auto fun and completely legal right?....Wrong!

This unusual gun was the brainchild of William "Bill" York of Hurricane, Utah. Bill was an avid manufacturer of STEN copies back in the 1980's and is listed on page 356 of Peter Laidler's exhaustive and authoritative book entitled "The Sten Machine Carbine". Recently, I emailed Bill about his creation and here's what he had to say about his sputter gun:

"I conceived and built the "sputter gun". My attorney friend named it. ATF
never gave a written classification on it. It was only stated to me personally by [the late] Chuck Lanam from the Tech Branch when he was at my shop in 1982 looking at all the Sten Guns we were building that he thought my finger would be classified the trigger. He said this I'm sure in order to scare us off in producing the sputter gun. (Funny we never got a single order for one when we offered them for sale) "

Anyway, it was a cool idea......
See pics here:
http://stenguns.tripod.com/id12.html

ctdonath
July 9, 2004, 12:54 AM
The "case" is standard operating procedure for BATFE. Don't have exact quotes to give you, but go hang around the full-auto boards and you'll get the idea. Latest observation I read was that no gun sent for confirmation of full-auto behavior came back not designated as such.

This is the same group that deemed Bob Stewart's .50BMG incomplete rifle kits as fully-functional firearms because they managed to, with great effort, shove an empty case into the "chamber" and fire a primer.

The full-auto crowd has learned thru experience to be EXTREMELY careful about the BATFE. Anything that hints at unlicensed full-auto is crushed - even mere conversations.

"Hellfire" triggers and Gatling guns are about the only legal unlicensed quasi-full-auto options you have - and tread lightly when even trying those routes.

C96
July 9, 2004, 02:26 AM
What ctdonath said - I have a friend in Federal Court right now because his
"suspicious" AR15 failed their tests.
The Test
1) Insert three rounds in mag
2) Pull trigger once
3) Count rounds sent down range
4) repeat Test until the number seen in step 3 equals two or more

Do test only with Federal ammo with the softest primers known to man.

It ain't over but it has been costly, he has a probation/case monitor who
regularly does unannounced house searches, no firearms in possession,
bank account monitored so he doesn't flee and the lawyer fees.

Someone called them civil servants, they are not civil or servants. :(

If you enjoyed reading about "Would making a gun slamfire be considered turning it into a machine gun?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!