[Aaron C]

I've been wondering this. As far as my eyes are concerned the round itself looks to be the same size, but the .38 cartridge is longer, wouldnt that mean more powder, more power? But what Ive heard is that a 9mm is more powerful than the .38. If this is true, why? Does it have something to do with the gun?

[shep854]

The .38 Special was originally a black-powder cartridge, which required more propellant, hence the relatively long case. If a .38Spec were loaded to the brim with modern "smokeless" propellant, you would likely blow a gun up. The 9x19, like other autopistol cartridges, were designed from the get-go for smokeless powder, so use a smaller case.

Because many .38 Spec guns are old and made from weaker steels than more modern ones, .38 loads are made light to avoid ka-booms in the old guns. .38 can be loaded to 9mm levels, but you have to be careful what gun it does into.

[mete]

Most of what you've heard is misinformation .First "power" are you talking about stopping power or energy. I would suggest you forget about energy since that has little real world importance. I actual on the street stopping power the two are similar but in each there are many variables . 9mm - standard load , +p , +p+. The 38 depends on standard or +p loads. Both rounds also depend on bullet type , round nose , hollow point etc. Of course barrel length changes things too.In addition there is 'firepower' which is the number of rounds, there the 9mm with 10 or 15 rounds would be better than the 6 of a revolver. Yes the 38 and 9mm are in the same class and arguing which is better is rather meaningless !!

[JeepDriver]

The 9mm has a much higher case pressure, and it fires the bullet at a much higher velocity then the 38. Example a 9mm 124 gr +p load travels @ around 1220-1250fps, while a 125gr 38+p will only reach 950-975fps.

With the noteable exception of some 38+p loads from Cor Bon and Black Hill's loads that reach 1050-1100 fps.

[Aaron C]

All of this is very informative! Thanks a bunch.

[Majic]

The .38sp can be loaded to out perform any 9mm. The case has the strength and area for the volume of powder needed. The weak link in the equation is the platform shooting the cartridge. Remember that the .357mag was developed using super hot .38sp loads shot out of large framed revolvers (the S&W 38/44 ). The case was stretched for the .357mag only to prevent loading the cartridge in the weaker .38sp revolvers.

[Plinkerton]

So, if you could get some super hot loaded .38 specials, would you be able to shoot them out of a modern .357? Can they exceed standard .357 pressures?

[mete]

The normal pressure of the 357 is about 35,000 psi ,that's twice the pressure of standard 38. There is the 38+p which is higher but not higher than the 357. The 38s can be fired in a 357. The pressure standards were developed years ago and the guns built to take those pressures. You can by hand loading, get almost any pressure, enough to blow up the gun, 70,000 will usually take a gun apart !!!!. You first have to find what ammo the gun is designed for and not exceed those pressures.

[jc2]

So, if you could get some super hot loaded .38 specials, would you be able to shoot them out of a modern .357? Can they exceed standard .357 pressures?
The .357 Magnum started as a .38 Special. It was developed using S&W .38 Special N-frames. When introduced commercially, all S&W did lenthened the case and the chambers of their .38 Special N-frame. The .357 Magnum (Model 27) was prettied up .38-44 Outdoorsman.

Many of the shooters of a generation ago continued to use .38 Special brass in their .357 Magnum handguns because .357 brass and ammo was in short supply (post-WW2). Also many them preferred a 173-grain Keith bullet that was too long (OAL) when loaded in .357 Magnum brass so they loaded to max .357 pressures in .38 brass. I believe some of them (Keith and maybe Skelton) said they achieved better accuracy with .38 Special brass than .357 brass.

So, you can certainly match hot .357 Magnum loads in terms of pressure and velocity using .38 Special. Once you exceed standard pressures, whether with .38 brass or .357 brass, you take your life (at least your hands and your sight) into own hands. One added caution, they were shooting these loads out of S&W N-frames which were built to take the pressures (regardless of whether the brass was stamped .38 Special or .357 Magnum). They would probably be fine in a .357 Magnum K-frame (or even J-frame if you have masochistic tendencies), but I would strongly advise against shooting them from .38 Special K (or J) frames even though you could.

[Shane333]

This has been very informative for me. As a teenager, unfamiliar with guns or cartridges, I once compared a .38 with a 9mm. Judging by sight, I guessed (incorrectly) that because the bullets are so close in size, and the .38 had longer brass, the .38 must be a "hotter" and more powerful cartridge.

A few years ago, as I caught the shooting bug, I was enlightened and informed that the 9mm was more powerful. Still, for years until today, I had often wondered why, with its longer brass, the .38 wasn't the more powerful cartridge.

Just another good example of how understanding history is so important.

[jc2]

It's kind of an oversimplification to classify the 9x19 as more "powerful" than the .38 Special without a whole lot of caveats. When the 9x19 was first finding its way into LE holsters in a big way, there were a great deal of complaints about it being "underpowered"--and this was in comparison to the .38 Special 158-grain +P LSWCHP. The 9x19 of that day just did not work as well as the old "FBI load" for the .38 Special did. Over the intervening years, the 9x19 has benefitted tremendously from the R&D that has led to are current generation premium ammunition where the .38 Special has not. The old "FBI load" is still probably the best .38 Special load for full-size service revolvers. That being said, in a straight round to round comparison (forgetting all the revolver/autoloader baggage), I'm not sure the 9x19 really outclasses the "FBI load" as a general issue service/anti-personnel round in a service size weapon with the caveat the 9x19 will have better intermediate barrier performance thanks to current technology JHPs. FWIW, the current Buffalo Bore rendition of the old FBI load yields 1000 fps and 351 fpe out of a two-inch J-frame. That's well within 9x19 range out of two inch barrel. Slap it in a four-inch barrel, and it would certainly outclass most (if not all) 9x19 loads.

[SB88LX]

Call me an idiot, but how do you shoot .380 caliber bullets through a .357 caliber barrel, is the .38 designation a misnomer? Someone please clarify for the ignorant.

[Majic]

The original .38 bullet was a heeled bullet like the .22lr bullet. The base of the bullet was rebated to fit inside the case and the rest of the bullet was the same diameter of the case. The bullet was reduced in size so the lubricant could then be protected by the case and the bullet then was seated deeper in the case. The bullet size then became .357" which is the inside diameter of the case.
The .38 name stayed with the bullet it's entire life. When they developed the .357magnum they decided to use the correct diameter in the name.
The same story is true about the .44 caliber except the .44mag kept the name of the .44sp even though the bullets for both are really .429" in diameter.
Now to make matters even worst, the .380 acp bullet isn't .380", but really .355 " in diameter.

Clear as mud aint it? :D

[bfoster]

SB88LX,

Just as the 357 Magnum case is a longer version of the 38 Special case, the 38 Special case is a longer version of the 38 Long Colt case.

The 38 Long Colt is very close to, if not identical to the earlier 380 Long, a British cartridge. Both the 38 Long Colt and the 380 Long were originally loaded with heel bullets having a maximum diameter in the 0.376 to 0.380" range on the driving band(s).

Heel bullets are bullets with a reduced diameter behind the driving band(s) that the case is crimped onto. 22 Short, 22 Long, and 22 Long Rifle ammunition is still made this way.

The revolvers that fired these heel bullet cartridges were developed from the nominal 36 calibre cap & ball revolvers which fired a (usually) 0.375" ball. The barrel groove diameter was often in the range of 0.361/0.365". This groove diameter wasn't changed in the original 38 Long Colt Revolvers as the bullets were very soft lead, the driving bands relatively narrow, and because black powder was used- generally bp is less likely to generate a big pressure spike, (this is before smokeless powder was in common use) there wasn't a problem in swaging the bullet to the bore in firing.

With the introduction of the Colt Army Model of 1892 the 38 Long Colt was adapted to an "inside lubricated" bullet (per government demand). This cartridge assumed what today we would think of as a normal configuration. There was initially some variation in actual bullet diameter used, but 0.357" is as good a nominal figure as any. To accommodate firing the bullet in a bore a bit larger than the bullet, the bullet used had a deep hollow base that expanded to fill the grooves on firing.

When S&W introduced the 38 Special in the 38 Hand Ejector (M&P) in 1899 the groove diameter was established at 0.357" to better fit the diameter of the bullet then used in the 38 Long Colt. This did away with the need for the hollow base. Colt followed suit about 1904, most pre-WWII Officers Model and Official Police revolvers will be found to be about 0.3555" groove diameter.

Bob

[JNewell]

So, this really goes back to the Colt revolvers, which were reallly .36 (Navy) and .43 (Army)? How did a .429 become a .44, then? Inflation? :D This is actually a serious question, I'm not trying to be humorous.

[bfoster]

JNewell,

I don't own an open top Colt to slug the bore on, but the grooves on my (original) Remington New Army slug out at 0.444" (this is the model that is frequently, and mistakenly, identified in reproduction arms as the M 1858- the M 1858 proper does not have safety notches for the hammer between the nipples). As the Colt 44's also used a similar sized ball (0.451") it's likely that the groove diameter was roughly the same, these are therefore both true 44 calibre revolvers.

The original S&W #3, the "American" model was the first U.S. made 44 calibre revolver to use modern cartridges. Production commenced in 1870. This revolver used a cartridge called the 44 American, it was loaded with heel bullets, samples in my collection range from 0.438"-0.444" diameter on the driving bands.

Colt introduced a modern 44 calibre cartridge in the M 1872, one chambering available was the 44 Colt. These cartridges were also loaded with heel bullets, generally these had a driving band diameter of 0.444-0.447". This cartridge was a dead end, no popular cartridges have descended from it.

With the introduction of the S&W #3 Russian (the old, old model Russian) in 1871 the chamber throat and barrel diameter were reduced to accept bullets that were of what today has become the standard design and size, not the heel type. Oddly enough, the initial 44 Russian cartridges retained outside lubrication (S&W was doubtless aware of the extensive experiments in cartridge design being carried out at the Frankford arsenal- but perhaps the Russians insisted on this- the customer is always right ;) ). This design vanished by 1890 according to Suydam. Inside lubricated 44 Russian cartridges appear to have been introduced about 1887 by the US Cartridge Co.

The 44 Special was introduced in late 1907 or early 1908 in the Triplelock. The 44 Magnum was introduced in 1955 in the 44 Magnum (pre M 29). Both of these cartridges descend directly from the 44 Russian.

Bob

[Majic]

The .44 caliber that we know today lead the same life as the .38 caliber that was discussed earlier. The only difference was the when the .44mag was developed they decided to keep the name of .44 instead of using the true diameter like the .357.

[DBR]

Aaron C:
There are actually two aspects to the ballistic properties of bullets. One is kinetic energy, the ability of the bullet to do work. The other is momentum, the ability of the bullet to exert force. Using the "power factor (PF)" formula for momentum shows a 124gr 9MM bullet at 1100fps has a PF of about 136. A 38spl 158gr +P at 900fps (std police loading with a 4" barrel) has a power factor of about 142. Even with a 2" barrel, the 38spl still has a PF of about 128. A lot of the kinetic energy is used up in expanding a hollow point bullet or causing a temporary stretch cavity. I don't wish to get into a debate about "heavy and slow vs light and fast". It is a proven fact that the deeper a bullet goes (within reason) the more damaging it is. The heavy 38spl is good at this. It is not so well proven what the temporary stretch cavity does at handgun velocities. Personally, I think that the heavy 38spl +P LSWCHP is entirely adequate for normal personal defense needs if you can put it where it matters.

[another okie]

The best way to understand all the information you're getting here is to try reloading. If you don't reload, see if someone you shoot with does and ask to watch and learn. Reading a reloading manual with bullet weights, powder volumes and velocities listed is helpful, but for many folks it doesn't really make sense until you build some rounds yourself.