Full-length guide rod for 1911? Yea or nay?


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firearms_instructor
July 6, 2004, 12:24 AM
I got a full-length guide with my Colt Gold Cup when I bought it. Is it worth the extra hassle incurred during field stripping? The guy at the gunshop said it made the pistol lock up faster and tighter. True or BS?

I'ts so much easier to assemble and disassemble the GC without the guide rod in it, I've just been wondering if the guide rod is really "all that".

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sm
July 6, 2004, 12:31 AM
Replace with GI stubby style.

Use the FLGR as a hinge pin for a gate - these tend to work quite well for such purposes.

firearms_instructor
July 6, 2004, 12:45 AM
Do you mean the original standard recoil spring plug? Yes, I have it, it's what's in there now. I take it from your reply that FLGRs are worthless?

sm
July 6, 2004, 12:54 AM
In a defensive / combat pistol - yes, worthless.
I'm not real fond of them for range, gaming or plinking either.

In this forum do a search ( below and right is "search this forum" feature )
Discussions get heated on some subjects, see usernames Tuner, Old Fuff for starters.

HTH

Badger Arms
July 6, 2004, 01:01 AM
I had Wild West guns install my Beavertail years ago. Had them put a full-length guide rod on at that time also. I haven't looked back... REALLY nice setup. The gun feels smoother and the extra weight up front certainly seems to help. I didn't have a chance to observe the gun before and after objectively as they did a trigger job and beavertail at the same time. All I can say is that I like mine. Takedown is a snap. I'd get a one-piece if I had it to do over again, though.

Josey
July 6, 2004, 01:54 AM
Odd. I have one in my CCW 1911, my M1991A1 and they are deensive/combat pistols. They aid in accuracy and add a slight weight. I like them.

Hal
July 6, 2004, 05:38 AM
The flgr in my Kimber unscrewed a little and tied the gun up 100%.

Doubt if I'd have one in a carry gun where it could get jostled.

Don't mind it in the bedroom gun that just sits there though.

Funny thing is the potential unscrewing issue dosn't bother me as much as having to use a plastic tool to take it down does. I really like the ease of pushing the button on my Commander (w/out the flgr) better.

Treylis
July 6, 2004, 05:56 AM
I have a FLGR in my carry gun. I kinda like the extra weight on the barrel end, reduces muzzle flip a bit.

Boats
July 6, 2004, 09:18 AM
Count me in the "FLGRs are worthless" camp. Somehow, 1911A1 combat pistols made it for decades without that useless appendage, and I still think the reasons given for it are bunk.

Perhaps someone could expound on why, on a 1911 with a well fitted bushing, the FLGR would improve accuracy? The ones I have seen certainly don't aid in functioning. They do complicate the field strip. Any effect on "muzzle flip" on a five inch specimen has to be negligible at best unless the rod is made of depleted uranium.:rolleyes:

I should have saved the five I have taken out of various 1911s and sold them on eBay or something. I just never knew there was a market for extraneous pistol garbage.:evil:

12 Volt Man
July 6, 2004, 09:46 AM
I am not sure that they are worthless yet.
I know that I am not fond of the two piece one that is in my Springfield Loaded. You need an allen wrench to take it out. I think I would much rather have a one piece.

John Forsyth
July 6, 2004, 11:11 AM
This is one of those subjects that has been beat to death. Along with do or not like forward cocking serrations.

There are basically two camps. One, they are useless and only take money out of your pocket. And two, they keep the spring from binding and add a little weight to the front of the gun.

Whatever. It's your pistol, do what you want with it.

WhoKnowsWho
July 6, 2004, 11:16 AM
It's just strange that most other guns I see have a full length guide rod.

I haven't seen problems with well made FLGR or short stubby ones that fit correctly in the 1911. Whichever you want, as long as it works.

fix
July 6, 2004, 11:17 AM
Is it a 9mm or a .45ACP?

Does it have forward slide serrations?

Front strap checkering?

It is essential that I know the answers to these questions before I can assist you. :D

halvey
July 6, 2004, 11:22 AM
I like it for a target gun. Keeps the muzzle flip down a bit. If I carried a gov't 1911, I'd probably not use one to keep the weight down.

Majic
July 6, 2004, 11:31 AM
I never understood the reasoning behind the binding story. Where is there room for the spring to bind and why haven't they been binding all these years before the FLRG?

Black Snowman
July 6, 2004, 11:32 AM
I'm not convinced a FLGR has any signifigant advantages. In my Delta Elite I replaced the wierd factory double springs and plastic guide with a Wolff spring and standard metal guide rod. Runs like a champ and didn't cost an arm and a leg either.

Badger Arms
July 6, 2004, 11:46 AM
Perhaps someone could expound on why, on a 1911 with a well fitted bushing, the FLGR would improve accuracy?Binding springs are not just binding, they bear unevenly on the barrel, putting it in a slightly different spot each time you fire. This is small and insignificant on most guns and as you point out, a fitted bushing is probably a better way to go. Problem is, fittend bushings and tight barrels rob more from reliability than a full-length guide rod ever will.

tc300mag1
July 6, 2004, 12:52 PM
Nope i find them more of a pain i like the short stubby GI style

firearms_instructor
July 6, 2004, 01:48 PM
"Is it a 9mm or a .45ACP?" - .45, of course. This pistol replaced a 9mm (Largo, Star Modelo Super).

"Does it have forward slide serrations?" - Nope.

"Front strap checkering?" - Nope.

"It is essential that I know the answers to these questions before I can assist you." - Thank you kindly, sir. Of course it's important to have all the hardware and software specs for proper troubleshooting.

It's a Mark IV Series '80 stainless steel Gold Cup with a Hogue rubber wraparound grip and a Wilson Combat extended slide release for my short thumb. And when the roll pin broke on the Elliason rear sight I replaced it with a section of 1/16" drill bit. Other than that, it's box-stock. I currently have the original standard recoil spring plug in it, I don't like having to use a special tool for disassembly.

fix
July 6, 2004, 01:51 PM
I don't like having to use a special tool for disassembly.

There's your answer.

...but...

bountyhunter posted a neat trick that works around this problem here (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=141936#post141936) . I have seen it done, and it works like a charm. I just don't care that much for the FLGR anyway.

Seriously, this really is like a debate over forward slide serrations in that it boils down to personal preference more than functional advantage/disadvantage.

firearms_instructor
July 6, 2004, 01:54 PM
Gosh, that was... too easy...

:cool:

sm
July 6, 2004, 02:30 PM
Nah...
This will be debated again. :D

I choose to agree to disagree. fix posted a good example and good attitude about this - even better that I did in my response.

I have a lot of respect for a lot of folks. I have my druthers and can be hard headed and opinonated [ I know - surprised some folks].

Hey I am the guy that hates PG only shotguns for most everyone / every task.

I am the same guy that defends the use of PG only shotguns as used by Badger Arms, and a few others for specific tasks. Badger and I see this FLGR differently - that is okay, I still respect Badger.

Hey maybe someday I'll get rich and go visit Badger,and go fishing...we all learn , share and agree to disagree.

Humm...Badger...you will loan me a PG only shotgun and help watch my six against Bears won't you? Old buddy , old pal ...:D

firearms_instructor
July 7, 2004, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the fix, fix. I'm reading the description and trying to visualize where to drill the hole, I think I want to try this.

[Edited to add]: OK, I found a pic showing placement of the hole:

http://www.1911store.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=62

Badger Arms
July 7, 2004, 12:49 AM
Humm...Badger...you will loan me a PG only shotgun and help watch my six against Bears won't you? Old buddy , old pal ...:evil: It's always preferable to take a buddy when you go fishing. Then you can take a 9mm with you instead of the shotgun. In case of bears, shoot the buddy in the knee and the bear will eat him while you egress. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

sm
July 7, 2004, 01:23 AM
I was afraid of that...

Kind of like letting the new kids from the big city swim in the farm ponds, small reseviors, and such, jump in first ...We'd wait to see if one would either get snake bit, or wait until they scared all the snakes away. NO matter - it made it safer for us regulars... We give it about 30 min before joining in....:D

How about we bring a third fellow...perhaps an anti? You go for the plane, I'll watch your six...I'll shoot the anti and be there in a jiffy....

:D

MICHAEL T
July 7, 2004, 01:54 AM
Iam from the no way camp 45 worked for many a year without Just something extra to break.

Badger Arms
July 7, 2004, 03:32 AM
For those that wonder, the 45 already has a guide rod, just a shorter one. Don't know what's wrong with making it longer. Just because John Browning didn't make it that way doesn't mean it's a good idea. Look at beavertails. The 1911 needs one, the High Power shoulda had one.

Majic
July 7, 2004, 05:17 AM
the 45 already has a guide rod, just a shorter one. Don't know what's wrong with making it longer.
Takedown procedure has just gotten a little more complicated.
Look at beavertails. The 1911 needs one, the High Power shoulda had one.
You may want a bearvertail, but it is not needed on a 1911. Since it can't be readily changed on the BHP people don't bother with modifying it.

nero45acp
July 7, 2004, 09:04 AM
A couple of years ago I asked a crusty, older gunsmith if he thought I should install a FLGR on my 1911. His response; "If John Browning had wanted it to have a full length guide-rod he'd a put one on it.";)



nero

SAWBONES
July 7, 2004, 10:20 AM
"They aid in accuracy..."?
Nah.

One of the gunrag scribes recently even did a formal test (was it in American Handgunner, I think?) on a sample of 1911s, set up and shot with, and then without FLGRs, and the guns shot MORE ACCURATELY with the standard setup (recoil spring plug), though the difference was minimal, and likely attributable to chance, though the guns certainly didn't gain any improvement in accuracy by employing a FLGR.

IMNSHO, this is just another one of those "gun fashion" things with 1911s, like two-tone color schemes, front slide serrations, and mag funnels.
Can they serve a useful function? On a "game gun", yes, or at least maybe, but on a CCW gun?. No.

That's how all of these "gun fashion" things started out, as helpful factors for top competitors in IPSC, then Joe Shmo noticed it and thought it was "cool", and decided that he had to emulate it on his 1911, even though he couldn't really make any genuine use of the features in question.

Front slide serrations helped chamber checking and reloading in pistols with optical sight mounts which interfered with access to the rear slide serrations.

Two-tone color schemes were originally seen on guns with hard-chromed frames (to protect them in the increased handling they got with much IPSC practice), with the slides being left blued in order to reduce glare while acquiring a sight picture. (I'm amused when I see guns with the opposite useless color scheme, with silver slides and dark frames; that TRULY just "gun fashion"!)

Mag funnels obviously can assist and speed up reloads on a competition gun, but they add bulk and weight with absolutely no needful purpose on a CCW gun, yet many modern factory 1911s come with these as stock nowadays!

FLGRs never did serve any useful purpose except perhaps as a way of putting a bit more weight up front (especially if they're made of tungsten), though full-length dust covers do that better on a game gun.

Personally, I can't stand any of the above "gun-fashion" features on my own 1911s.
You may like 'em, and more power to ya if you do, but to rationalize their place on your gun as anything more than simple personal preference is silly.

Best.

ruger357
July 7, 2004, 01:11 PM
My SW1911, yea. My SA GI 1911, nay. If it comes with the 1911, fine. If it doesn't, I leave it alone.

45auto
July 7, 2004, 02:25 PM
I think the FLGR may help a loose 1911 keep the slide more centered on the frame, better/more consistent ejection which should help in reliabilty IMHO. Rattles less and feels smoother.

On a target/range gun, I think it's an advantage.
Carry/casual gun, doesn't matter either way.

Obviously, the 1911 has worked a long time without one. ;)

Chris Rhines
July 7, 2004, 08:59 PM
"Personal preference" often equates to "getting more hits, faster." If a full-length guide rod can help me shoot faster and more accurately, then I'd prefer to have one. If not, then not.

- Chris

Zach S
July 8, 2004, 07:30 AM
You wont find a FLGR in any of my 1911s. I took the FLGR out of my Kimber Polymer (5"), Kimber compact (4"), and my Para Companion (3.5"). I've yet to have any problems. My Colt came with the right one installed already. I even have a few spares, (one stock replacement, and one cut-down FLGR), in case I buy a 1911 on impulse that has a FLGR.

(I'm amused when I see guns with the opposite useless color scheme, with silver slides and dark frames; that TRULY just "gun fashion"!) My Polymer Stainless has the backwards finish you describe. I love a two-tone pistol, but I hate the backwards finish. I'm having it tefloned just so it wont be backasswards anymore.

Dave Sample
July 8, 2004, 05:15 PM
I like 'em. FLGR's have been installed in every custom gun I have ever built in a five inch size. I also am a big fan af front grasping grooves for match shooting as it gives me a very safe way to load and unload the 1911 at various matches. The main reason I like FLGR's is that they may keep you from losing a nice finger when you are being cool and "pinch checking" your 1911. They also extend recoil spring life and keep that spring from snaking around in the dust cover and making those funny noises when you pull the slide back. They do not improve accuracy as far as I know, but they are easy to install and un-install and cost money so that 1911 guys can buy a nice part that will "Drop In." I use CP Shok-buffs with them, too. That should start the fur flying!

R.H. Lee
July 8, 2004, 05:25 PM
Why stop with a FLGR? Why not install tiny roller bearings on the frame to improve "smoothness" and keep that slide lined up with the frame? Or forget the recoil spring altogether and install a miniature hydraulic system tuned to absorb recoil and return the slide to battery?

feh. Leave it alone. It's perfect as is. Unless you're smarter than JMB :scrutiny:

Treylis
July 8, 2004, 10:05 PM
Any effect on "muzzle flip" on a five inch specimen has to be negligible at best unless the rod is made of depleted uranium.

Well, it's one of the heavy tungsten ones, so it does actually seem to help. That's the only reason why I have it on, the other arguments about spring binding, etc., seem specious to me.

Badger Arms
July 9, 2004, 12:40 AM
Specious is such a cool word. I still don't know what it means but it sounds really cool. One thing that the guide rod does is make the gun 'feel' more sound. :)

That spring noise bothers me as much as a rattle in my car. Can't tell you how much expanding foam, foam double-stick tape, and duct tape I've used tracking down rattles in my car. The binding spring just annoys the crap out of me.

Dave Sample
July 9, 2004, 05:22 PM
I love this FLGR stuff. That's what makes Horse Races! I guess what I have found out that like all the forum stuff, it's just a matter of opinion. No facts, just opinions. All the tests that I have read are non-conclusive, so I think that everybody must be right!

sm
July 9, 2004, 06:28 PM
Hey the way I look at it, less stuff to keep up with when taking apart, less chance of forgetting to put it all back in. Don't you hate it when something is back together- and one part "winks" at you laying on the bench. :p



http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Specious&x=15&y=14


One entry found for specious.


Main Entry: spe·cious
Pronunciation: 'spE-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, visually pleasing, from Latin speciosus beautiful, plausible, from species
1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness : SOPHISTIC
- spe·cious·ly adverb
- spe·cious·ness noun

Jammer Six
July 10, 2004, 02:02 AM
I'ts so much easier to assemble and disassemble the GC without the guide rod in it, I've just been wondering if the guide rod is really "all that".

Geez, is it time for the summer hatch already?

Fishing lures aren't made to catch fish, they're made to catch fishermen.

FLGR's aren't made to help the gun, they're made to sell.

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