Shotgun + slugs OK for bears?

[Med 10]

What do you think folks? Myself and a friend are debating how effective this would be for defense against bears. He wants to get a bigbore lever gun but I think his 12guage Winchester 1300 with 18inch barrel and 7 shot capacity would suffice. Lets hear it from the experts!

[MrMurphy]

I remember hearing Gunsite has a Dangerous Game course (mostly for Alaskan bears) and most of the people attending were working in the Alaskan wild country (Game Wardens, people like that) and the pistol of choice was a .44 Magnum at minimum, and the long gun almost exclusively used since it was what they had, was a 12ga with slugs. Some leverguns were there I think, but at least half the class had 12ga's with slugs.

[PJR]

I'd prefer a pump gun loaded with Brenneke slugs over a .45-70 lever action if the action is within 50 yards.

Bears will strive to avoid you most of the time. It's the other times that you need to worry about.

Paul

[Badger Arms]

Slugs are preferred if you know what you are doing... problem is that very few people are good enough with slugs to get the job done. Better to use a good magnum buckshot load. I prefer the 12 pellet 00 load same as I use for human defense. First time I encountered a bear I had steel shot in my shotgun. Can't tell you how tense I was. I doubt I could have hit the bear with a slug. Anybody ever seen a bear charge at 30-40 miles an hour!?! Good luck with your slugs, boys, I don't have nerves like that.

Good advice would be to wait for a feign charge. If you pop the bear during a feign charge, it might just turn into a real charge.

[PJR]

I don't agree with using buckshot. Much beyond 25 yards the buckshot pattern spreads to the point that you won't be able to get many pellets into the animal. I am confident I can put slugs where they need to go at 50 yards. I am NOT going to let a bear get closer to me just because I have buckshot. Nor am I going to let it feign a charge. Either it stays put or decamps but if it moves towards me it's gone. If it's faking it then that's the bear's problem.

Secondly, I've shot enough animals with shotguns to be very skeptical about buckshot's penetration and stopping power. Slugs however do penetrate and carry the momentum necessary to disrupt an animals superstructure which is what you need if facing a large threatening animal. Waiting for it to bleed out with a chest full of buckshot isn't an appealing prospect.

I agree that slugs do require some practice and a good set of rifle sights is always a good idea.

Paul

[MrMurphy]

This is where a semiauto shotgun with a dot scope would seriously be a good idea... Maybe a Saiga 12ga... five shots and a much faster reload (detachable mag) than refilling a tube.

[Cosmoline]

I favor a Mossberg 500 with a slug barrel and iron sights for protection up here in AK while fishing or hiking. I've tried a number of other options, but the Mossy is by far the easiest to carry so that's what I use. I found large handguns to be annoying on a long hike, esp. if carried on the hip. Large rifles can also be annoying, and difficult to manipulate in close quarters. There's a difference between what you use to HUNT bear and what you use to STOP bear. A slug gun with magnum slugs is great at stopping a bear as long as you've practiced with it and have it sighted in.

[Med 10]

Thanks for the answers folks, good food for thought as usual.
I stopped by the sporting goods store to take a look at a 45-70 cartridge, MAN does that thing look stout. Anyone ever shot one? recoil? worse or better than a shottie? Where to find good price on rifle sights?

Lemme know if I ask to many ???'s

:D

[Badger Arms]

Much beyond 25 yards the buckshot pattern spreads to the point that you won't be able to get many pellets into the animal.With all due respect, if you shoot every bear that gets within 75 feet of you, you would have to bring lots of ammo and then explain to the nice game warden why you just illegally took a bear. That type of attitude is irresponsible. You have to read the bear and size up its intentions. If a bear gives you the opportunity to shoot it at 50 yards, you'd better damn well have a hunting license and tags or you're just poaching. Bears are dangerous, but there is no reason to shoot them on sight.

Second point, if you are near a stream fishing or tromping through the brush to get to your fishing spot, that bear is going to appear much closer than your 25 yards and he's going to be just as frightened as you. Try unslinging your gun and placing a slug through a major bone, the brain, or the heart in the 3 seconds you might have to save your life. If the bear gives you longer than that, it's probably already ran into the thick brush to save itself. After a few bear encounters, you learn that they all aren't out to maul you. They're just out fishing too.

[sm]

In a lever gun it is not bad, you will know you fired it tho'. Factory sights are fine...we ain't talking about "target" we are talking "defensive" shooting.

You know what is said about bears and sights...

I concede to Badger, Wild and others that actually are in this enviroment.

I'd want a PG SG like Badger set up. [ yeah mark the calendar I typed I wanted a PG shotgun]

...Bagder says if I come visit to , I get to carry all the gear and a 9mm...something about he shoots me, the bear gets me...but Badger is safe to guide another day...:D

Gee...I wonder what the deal is if a person doesn't get the "THR Family Treatment"

:D

[Cosmoline]

The very worst thing you can do is wound the animal, and I have no faith that buckshot is going to do anything but wound a large brown bear. Besides, you still have to aim your shotgun when loaded with shot.

As far as when to shoot, the answer is "it depends." A bear nosing into your tent? Blow it away without hesitation--you are in peril. A bear fishing the same stream? Obviously that's different. Bear even tolerate each other to get at the salmon.

I'm not a real believer in the notion that hikers "surprise" bear. These are animals that can literally smell humans from miles away, and smell your footprints if you've walked through one of their territories. A bear lurking on a moose kill by McHugh Creek Trail knows darn well there are thousands of trail monkeys in the area. The valley must reek of humans to the bear. And you can't tell me you need those bells in order for the animal to hear you. Black bear will bolt off at the barely audible sound of rifle's safety being taken off at 75 yards.

Are they all out to kill people? Of course not. But OTOH any bear within 100 yards that isn't running away from you should be treated as a potential threat. I'm not saying shoot it, but having it in your sights as you leave the area is the only wise course of action. That animal knows perfectly well what you are and where you are, it just doesn't care. And that's always cause for concern.

[Badger Arms]

I have faith that Buckshot will get the job done. One blast is like getting shot 12 times with a 38 Special. Each individual pellet takes meat, bone, and blood vessels out on its way through. It also hurts more. Pepper spray works most of the time because it hurts. In cases where pepper spray doesn't work, a COM hit with 12 pellets traveling over 1000fps each should give the bruin pause. I can understand a slug penetrates more and is more likely to break a shoulder, but I don't know of many people that can make reliable hits on a charging bear with a slug gun. I certainly don't trust that I can.

[PJR]

So Badger are you willing to go bear hunting with just two .38 specials?

The buckshot might give the bruin pause but the objective is to get the thing stopped on the spot.

Frankly, 25 yards is too close to dink around with a bear. It can close the distance in mere seconds and when one was that close to me last week I had the sights on it and was ready to squeeze. It turned tail and wandered off. Had it come towards me the encounter would have concluded in a different fashion.

I've been there and done that with bears. Buckshot isn't my choice.

Paul

[greg531mi]

What about a combo of slugs and buckshot? Up here in Michigan, with smoothbore shotguns, a lot of hunters put in two or three slugs and a couple of buckshots in their guns....If I miss those first two shots, that bear will be really close, and don't want to miss with maybe my last chance!!!!

[Badger Arms]

So Badger are you willing to go bear hunting with just two .38 specials?Where the heck did I say that? I said, that shooting a bear with a single blast from a shotgun is like shooting it 12 times with a 38 special. Of course, you can simply shuck another round in and shoot it again. With my bear setup, that's 60 pellets delivered in short order. Put another way, if you had an MP-5, you would have to empty two clips to equal the stopping power in the five rounds of 00 Buck that I can deliver in under two seconds.

Do you think you can place a slug through the heart or shoulders of a charging bear reliably? Okay, Doc Holiday, I'll stay back in the truck, you do the shooting. I'd still call it poaching if you shot a bear at 25 yards.

[Lone Star]

There's a chap who teaches bear avoidance and defense techniques in British Columbia. For those who can legally carry a gun -not easy in Canada - he suggests the Remington M870 and 12 ga. slugs.

I believe the US Forest Service also advises their rangers to arm themselves in a like manner when bears are an issue.

I seriously doubt that buckshot will penetrate enough.

If you're going to carry a rifle, I'd favor the Winchester M70 in .375 H&H Magnum, preferably with Nosler bullets or some other design known for relaiable penetration.

Lone Star

[Dave McCracken]

I had some input on this a while back. The rangers that trap and transport nuisance bears have 12 gauge pumpguns. Mostly they load them with all slugs, though some favor a mix load. Mixed loading includes alternating slugss and buck or a couple slugs up first and buck following.

[another okie]

If a 12 gauge slug won't kill something, I don't want to be on the same planet with it.

[BJPARKER]

For those contemplating the likelyhood of a second or third shot on a charging bear, consider that a bear can move 40 yards in less than 3 seconds during a charge. I know one shot and a prayer most likely would be my best.

[Badger Arms]

Killing problem bears is just like hunting, you have time to stalk the prey and aim the shot. Same situation guides find themselves in. As was said earlier, Bears run fast. If you have less than 3 seconds to fire, how many aimed shots can you get off and be assured of hitting bone, brain, or heart?I seriously doubt that buckshot will penetrate enough.Well, you don't have to take my word for it. Scientifically, Buckshot penetrates pretty well:

http://www.cprc.org/tr/1998/03/tr-1998-03.pdf

http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/shotgun.htm

Of course, this is single 0 buckshot shot at up to 50 yards that penetrates 14" for each individual pellet. 12 pellet loads are higher velocity and being 00 are also larger and will penetrate slightly more. Notice in the second link that slugs penetrate about 18-21"... these are not the magic rockets everybody makes them out to be.

[Cosmoline]

But those tests are dealing with *human* foes. In those cases I agree buckshot is more than sufficient. And against black bear--it would be fine. But think about a boar brownie!! If you're facing the business end you're dealing with several FEET of tough hide, massive bone and muscle between you and the vital parts in the heart/lung area. I don't have any confidence a pellet with under 300 ft. lbs of energy and terrible sectional density is going to plow through that. OTOH I've seen magnum slugs equal a hot .45-70 in penetration and destruction against a pile of spruce trees, so I'm fairly confident I'd be able to get the slug into the vitals if I did my part. I also have more confidence in a slug breaking those big bones than a small roundball.

F&G did a study of the effects of buckshot on large bear bodies a while back. I'll try to track it down. I recall them giving the thumbs down to buckshot, and indeed I believe that report was what first got me thinking about slugs.

It's also worth noting that while buckshot is still buckshot, slugs have gotten better and better in the past decades and the three and three and a half inch magnums are throwing them faster. They're made with harder leads and the sabot slugs can be as accurate as a big bore rifle.

[only1asterisk]

Never having had a bad bear incident, all I can add is that I loaded up with 3" Brenneke slugs while fishing in bear country and felt well armed. I think the bear attacks you have to worry about are the times when you and the bear stumble into each other. It would seem to be close and fast with the human being at a serious disadvantage.


David

[Wilhelm]

I just got done watching that Discovery show on the guy and his girlfriend that were eaten by the grizzly. I think I would use slugs.

[PJR]

Badger:

Call me all the names you like whether "poacher" or "Doc Holiday" but on this subject we must agree to disagree.

Possibly our situations are different. In our region we've had an upsurge in nuisance black bears and they are encroaching into places were they've never been previously. They are unafraid of humans and instead of turning tail when yelled at or catch a person's scent they advance. If a bear comes toward me from 50 yards, it isn't getting closer than 25. If you consider that poaching that's where we differ. I respect that you are in a different part of the world and deal in different situations. If I have the opportunity to withdraw to safety I will and we can sit in the truck together. But when the bear is on your front lawn and is menacing and advancing it's a different situation.

As for whether I can shoot accurately enough or quickly enough to stop a charge isn't something I can say for certain. No one can until they have done it for real and I haven't. That is why I intend to settle matters BEFORE a charge. I'm aware of false charges but I'm not going to let it get closer than 25 yards just to find out whether the bear is just kidding.

So if 25 yards is "poaching" what is the magic distance where it becomes a matter of your personal safety. 20 yards, 10 yards or when he is chomping on your leg?

Paul

[MLC]

Badger Arms=Blain?





j/k
I personally wouldn't pick buckshot as my first defensive choice.

[Badger Arms]

Call me all the names you like whether "poacher" or "Doc Holiday" but on this subject we must agree to disagree.Okay, we'll disagree. I didn't mean it personally, but it's my OPINION that shooting a bear at 25 yards is GENERALLY uncalled for. Every situation is different, you're right. A bear that has feign charged you twice and is standing sideways at 25 yards with its fur bristled probably needs to be shot for your own safety. What irks me is the people who feel that they can and should shoot a bear on sight. You are in the bear's territory, not the other way around. Lest you be fooled, remember who's bigger. If you can justify to a game warden that you felt reasonably threatened, go ahead. The bear isn't going to be able to tell much of a story, especially after getting slugged with a 1oz chunk of metal going supersonic through its hide.what is the magic distance where it becomes a matter of your personal safety.There really isn't any... and that's a good point to make. That's why a blanket statement saying that you'd kill any bear that got within 25 yards is not responsible. I'd consider myself a pretty good shot, but I seriously doubt I'd be able to put a slug through the shoulder of a charging bear. I've SEEN fein charges before and those bears don't deserve to be shot, they're doing what comes natural, protecting themselves. If you know what to do (LEAVE) then the bear generally won't kill and eat you.

Of course, I'm not saying that 3.5" Magnum loads of buckshot will disintegrate a bear, I'm just saying that slugs are not necessarily the best choice to defend yourself. There is no magical death ray that doesn't need any skill to operate. Hitting a bear with a 50BMG might not always do the job. If we agree to disagree, fine. No more from me.

[Correia]

Badger is not Blain. Please no personal insults on THR.

I shoot a lot of shotgun. So in answer to the question "How fast can YOU shoot." Provided the gun is at the low ready, in 3 seconds, usually about 8 or 9 aimed shots. Especially if it is at something big and mean and ready to eat me.

Ok, joking aside. I'm not a native of Alaska and the only bears I'm likely to run into camping could probably be dismissed with a rolled up newspaper and harsh language. BUT I know far to many people who will no longer utilize buckshot on wild boars due to the lack of penetration. A big boar will have a leathery hide and potentially a lot of fat. And a big bear can be much larger than a pig.

So in this case I think the pros of using slugs far outweigh the negatives. You are still going to have to aim either way. If I was going to do this tomorrow I would probably do as Dave suggests and go with a mixed load of slugs first, followed by buckshot for when it is at conversational distance and the pellets penetration should be maximized.

[MLC]

I apparently didn't make it clear enough in the j/k that I typed that I was only kidding.
Badger Arms is making a perfectly reasonable argument from personal experience and I did not mean in any way to personally insult him.

[Cosmoline]

Maybe it's because I have so little experience with skeet, but I would feel much more confident in being able to hit a shoulder with a slug than with a bunch of shot. A slug behaves in ways I'm familiar with. Shot doesn't.

[Dave McCracken]

This is not the high road, folks. Thread closed.