This worries me guys...


PDA






thefitzvh
July 7, 2004, 07:44 PM
Guys, this worries me a bit.

A THR user with 7 posts showed interest in my XD for sale, and then I found out he was 17. He asked if I could sell it to his dad, I said yeah, but it still has to go through an FFL. Then this convo ensued.

yourstupid202: can you sell it to my dad
TheFitzVH: I suppose so, but it still has to go through an FFL dealer
yourstupid202: I'm on the phone with the guy and he says you can break it down a little and ship it as parts directly to me
TheFitzVH: haha. No way. That's a felony, my man.
TheFitzVH: sorry. I'll find another buyer
yourstupid202: I wasn't aware of that, sorry
yourstupid202: well good luck sellin it anyway


Given the post count, I think it's a setup. THoughts?

If you enjoyed reading about "This worries me guys..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
boofus
July 7, 2004, 07:47 PM
You did right. The guy is either ATF agent smucktelli or a criminal trying to score a gun. Going through a FFL is the best way to cover your ass.

Fly320s
July 7, 2004, 07:49 PM
I doubt it's a setup. I think that the batmen over at BATFE have bigger fish to fry.

Probably just a 17y.o. kid looking for a semi-easy way to get a gun.

geegee
July 7, 2004, 10:41 PM
I doubt it's a setup. I think that the batmen over at BATFE have bigger fish to fry.
Or possibly an antigunner, who would love nothing more than to post their illegal gun buy all over the web, then show the info to someone over at "60 Liberal Minutes" :barf:

You did the right thing. Here ya go : attaboy! :D

jimbo
July 7, 2004, 10:50 PM
Couldn't he be a 17-year-old criminal trying to get a gun?:D

thefitzvh
July 7, 2004, 10:53 PM
Whatever it is, it's lame... and I still need to sell this gun :-D

buy guns
July 7, 2004, 11:01 PM
Couldn't he be a 17-year-old criminal trying to get a gun?


a fake criminal at the most. a real one wouldnt need the internet.

Ian
July 7, 2004, 11:52 PM
FWIW, gun laws aren't terribly well known among most people. Straw purchase laws are particularly goofy, and I can certainly see a totally well-meaning and well-intentioned 17-year-old thinking the "ship as parts" thing might be legal.

Heck, one of the gun shops near hadn't even heard of C&R licenses when my dad went in to buy an old C&R gun they had. They insisted on doing a background check, when all they needed to do was take a copy of his 03 FFL and log it out to him.

There are totally well-meaning 17-year-olds out there trying to get pistols, you know. I got my first one at 17 or 18.

Standing Wolf
July 8, 2004, 12:10 AM
The guy is either ATF agent smucktelli or a criminal trying to score a gun.

No, no! It couldn't possibly be loyal, courageous, stalwart Agent Schmuckatelli! Say it's not so!

Spot77
July 8, 2004, 12:10 AM
I agree with Ian.....heck I bought my first handgun when I was 20....A friend of mine asked me if I wanted it, I said yes, and it became mine.

Of course this was back in 1990, so I have no idea what the law was back then. If somebody would've told me all the hoops that needed to be jumped through I would've been SHOCKED.

I wasn't into guns back then, and I didn't care about gun laws. My friend said it was legal for me to buy, so I believed him. I didn't keep it very long. I needed beer money more than I needed a gun (how STUPID was I?)

Kids are gullible; that's why so many of them do exactly what the Left wants them to do.

whm1974
July 8, 2004, 12:16 AM
FWIW, gun laws aren't terribly well known among most people. Straw purchase laws are particularly goofy, and I can certainly see a totally well-meaning and well-intentioned 17-year-old thinking the "ship as parts" thing might be legal.

It doesn't help that laws get change so often and courts change rulings as well.
People also make matters worse by repeating what they heard instead of checking.
An example here, I had people tell me that here in IL not only you can't have ammo in a case with the gun(s), you can't even have both gun and ammo in the same location in the car. So what is a guy with a pickup suppose to do?

-Bill

ctdonath
July 8, 2004, 11:37 AM
Obviously kid looking for an easy/cool buy. I don't see someone running a "sting" with the name "yourstupid"...but that's a typical handle for a teen.

halvey
July 8, 2004, 12:04 PM
I bet it was an anti.

Couldn't you ship as parts though as long as the frame went through a FFL?

CannibalCrowley
July 8, 2004, 12:19 PM
I can't believe everyone is missing the obvious, it was a 17 year old criminal who is also an anti who wanted to complete the sale as a stepping stone to become a BATFE agent. But in reality he's probably just a kid who wants a gun and his parent(s) don't want him to have one.

Does anyone else find it ironic that "yourstupid202" is either saying he is stupid and belongs to someone else, or he's stupid because he doesn't know the difference between your and you're? (pet peeve)

shermacman
July 8, 2004, 12:22 PM
Stay away. You know and he knows that it is a felony to break down a gun and ship it across state lines. Most states it is a felony for someone under 21 to own a pistol so you would be up to felony number three if you sold it to the 'straw man' even if it is his father. (Which you have absolutely no way to prove.) You may need to sell the gun, but just one call to a lawyer to help you through this will vaporize the money!

Don Gwinn
July 8, 2004, 12:28 PM
You might be surprised what an internet sting looks like. Probably not many of you outside Illinois remember this, but back when Jim Ryan was Attorney General of Illinois and was running for Governor, he decided to establish his anti-gun bona fides. (He was a Republican, but this is Chicago, and he apparently thought the best way to beat Rod Blagojevich was to agree with him on gun control.) Anyway, his office started contacting people with rifles for sale. They concentrated on "assault weapons" even though those weapons are perfectly legal, hoping to to trick people into doing something illegal in the sale. The most common trick was to assure the seller that it was legal to "part ouf" the gun and ship all the parts directly across state lines, with no FFL involved. That, of course, is a federal offense.

In the end it didn't work out very well for Ryan. He was forced to give up all his arrests when it was found that he clearly used entrapment (the transcripts are below) and he really stepped on the Feds' toes at the same time. His entrapment got a guy released who had been targeted by the Feds for selling illegal machine guns and the resulting mess tipped him off.

Exchanges between investigators and gun sellers in Ryan sting
(AP) - Here are excerpts from the e-mail exchanges, obtained through the Illinois Freedom of Information Act.
Israeli Galil rifle (Gresham, Ore.)
Seller: "I'm not a dealer, just an honest citizen. I am however, aware that federal regulations require that if I transfer a firearm across state lines it must be transferred to a federal firearms license holder in the state of receipt. . . . I can't take the risk of (ticking) off the Feds. I simply have to much to lose, wife, kids, job, house, etc. I'm sure the (federal authorities) would lock me up or at the very least fine the (deleted) out of me."
AG: "I spoke to a FFL that works in the same building as I do. He said in Illinois, as long as neither of us is a FFL gun dealer all I need is a valid Fire Arms Owner Identification Card. ... I would really like to avoid the hassle and expense of going through a dealer. Why should we put money in his pocket for doing nothing but having a piece of paper?"
Seller: "Thanks for your reply to my concerns about interstate firearms transfers. I must admit that I have never done this before and don't want to be liable for doing anything illegal."

MAK 90 (Panama City, Fla.)
Seller: "It will have to be shipped through a licensed dealer to a licensed dealer."
AG: "If you are not a dealer, I believe you can ship the AK directly to me. This would cut out the expense of both of us having to pay dealers."


Seller, after reading about the federal dealer rule: "I believe it means that at least I must use a fire arms dealer from my end. Do you know the laws on this?"
AG: "We are both private citizens so you can sell to me directly."

MAK 90 (Bartlesville, Okla.)
Seller: "In checking with the local gun shop here in town the only way to sell a firearm is that it has to be sent from one FFL licensed party to another. ... I am not sure if it also applies to parts."
AG: "I do not believe parts have to go through a FFL, otherwise mail order places would be out of business."
Seller: "I just wanted to be legal about the transaction. ... I will ship as parts. Like you say, no FFL required on the parts."


MAK 90 (Forestville, N.Y.)
Seller: "I need to send it to an FFL dealer, right?"
AG: "If you are not a dealer and just a private citizen, you can sell directly to me."
Seller: "The only way you can send things via the mail over state lines is by sending to a valid FFL dealer. ... Sorry if this makes you change your mind, but I don't want to go to jail!"
AG: "How do you feel about breaking the gun down into two parts and sending them to me that way? It is definitely not illegal to send gun parts directly to an individual."
Seller: "All right. I'll break it down and send 2 packages."


The moral of the story is this: Just like fitz, you must NEVER take legal advice from a stranger! It might be a misguided kid, or it might be the Federal government. You just don't know, and your government (well, mine anyway) has proven that it doesn't mind entrapping people who honestly want to follow the law. Whoever they can convict, they will. How hard you tried to follow the law is irrelevant to them.

Halvey, you could ship parts and send the receiver through an FFL, but what would that gain you over shipping the whole gun? The frame is still going to be treated as a whole gun, with all the red tape and costs that implies, and you'll have another package to pay for and keep track of while that's going on. There is NO advantage to parting out an entire gun.

Now, if your buddy has a serviceable receiver with rusted out parts, and you've got a whole gun, then yeah, by all means, strip everything off and send it. But don't send that receiver unless it's going to an FFL. Especially not at the urging of a stranger over the internet.

Man, those transcripts still turn my stomach. :barf:

2nd Amendment
July 8, 2004, 12:42 PM
Maybe the "your" is correct? He's calling your 202 stupid. Now since I don't know what a 202 is I am not sure I have one and thus I can't ascertain how stupid it may be but, well, I have many other stupid things so...

whm1974
July 8, 2004, 05:41 PM
if it looks like a sting, then it probly is...

-Bill Meadows

mikemck
July 8, 2004, 05:59 PM
Post counts have nothing to do with anything at all. There is plenty of ignorance from ppl with post counts over 1,000 just like there is from ppl with less.

It's more than a bit dramatic to come to the conclusion that you dodged a government bullet, given what you posted here. Further, if the username is LONE, why did you feel the need to be offensive and change it to stupid?

And no, it's not a felony to part out a gun and ship it over state lines to an FFL, shermacman. Are you some G-Man looking to spread disinformation and make it harder for honest American citizens to buy/sell/trade firearms?

Honestly, I can't imagine what it must be like for some of you guys, apparently paranoid thinking the government is out to get you at every turn and trick you into breaking the law.

shermacman
July 8, 2004, 07:04 PM
Mikemck:
Kind of edgy there, son. I did not say it was illegal to part out a gun and ship it to an FFL. I said that it is illegal to part out a gun and ship it to a person over state lines, just like the situation that the original poster described. Where did you get the idea that I was talking about shipping it to an FFL? Your other comments are equally unusual.

Your question about why the poster, thefitzvh, changed the name to yourstupid202 is strange. He did no such thing, there is the Highroad handle, but yourstupid202 is an IM handle, same person, different handle; nothing offensive, no malice, other than your comment.

Then to go off and describe the other comments made by people in this thread as paranoid, and to ask if I am some sort of G-man...well, you are just plain way off base.

mikemck
July 8, 2004, 07:43 PM
Mikemck:
Kind of edgy there, son. I did not say it was illegal to part out a gun and ship it to an FFL. I said that it is illegal to part out a gun and ship it to a person over state lines, just like the situation that the original poster described. Where did you get the idea that I was talking about shipping it to an FFL? Your other comments are equally unusual.

I read exactly what you wrote, which was "Stay away. You know and he knows that it is a felony to break down a gun and ship it across state lines"

It read like you were saying it was a felony no matter what, and I pointed out that it was not.
You also obviously assume that the other guy also knew it was a felony, which you could not possibly know.
It is just as likely that the local FFL or whoever he was on the phone with told him it was legal, or even that he honestly misunderstood what someone told him.

Your question about why the poster, thefitzvh, changed the name to yourstupid202 is strange. He did no such thing: yourstupid202 is an IM handle, same person, different handle; nothing offensive, no malice, other than your comment.

Strange? He never mentioned it was an IM handle and his handle was the same, so to me it looked like, based on the rest of his post, he changed it himself in his post. Nothing particularly "strange" or "furtive" about my question. It looked he did, so I asked him why. Same as I would ask anyone else I thought had done something like that.

Then to go off and describe the other comments made by people in this thread as paranoid, and to ask if I am some sort of G-man...well, you are just plain way off base.

You personally know the people who said it was probably a "sting" and other such comments, and know they are not in fact paranoid, and had good reason to jump to such conclusions, based on what was reported?
And I am of course therefore way off base?
My comment about you being a G-Man was sarcastic, and I said it because of the bizarre conclusions that you and others jumped to about the 17 year old.
Of course, you are here to refute my rediculous comments, and that always helps.

I think quite a few of you need a bit more real excitement in your lives if something simple like a 17 year old being up front and saying his dad is willing to buy him a gun and all the rest of it gets blown up into some BATF sting operation. To me, that's just bizarre, and I honestly can't understand the thinking.

thefitzvh
July 8, 2004, 07:50 PM
I cut & pasted the convo. Also, if you looked at the convo, you'd see that he PLAINLY wasn't talking about shipping it to an FFL

Jeez. Someone needs to relax.

why did you feel the need to be offensive

and I"M Jumping to conclusions? Investigate before asking why i felt the need to be "offensive"

mikemck
July 8, 2004, 07:59 PM
I cut & pasted the convo. Also, if you looked at the convo, you'd see that he PLAINLY wasn't talking about shipping it to an FFL

And I never said otherwise. I clearly pointed out that it is just as likely that he did not know it was illegal from talking to whoever he was on the phone with, or that he misunderstood what they were telling him. Get it?

Also, it does not say "IM convo" anywhere in it, and could just as easily have been cut & pasted from a PM convo...duh. Being that your whole premise behind posting was being worried that he was out to screw you or get you put in jail, it did not seem extremely unlikely that you would give him a name with 'stupid' in it, after you foiled his evil plans.

Jeez. Someone needs to relax.

I am perfectly relaxed. It is ironic though, coming from the guy who started this thread and how worried you were about a 17 year old talking to you about selling your gun to his dad. It looks like you are the one who needs to relax.

When you hear hoof beats, think of horses....

mikemck
July 8, 2004, 08:03 PM
and I"M Jumping to conclusions? Investigate before asking why i felt the need to be "offensive"

Oh yes, and this here...

I was investigating, hence the question about why you did it, here where you could answer for yourself.

If I was like you and some others who posted here, I would be asking my wife or some other person who could not possibly know why you did it, and end up just assuming you were some internet weenie trying desperately to feel smarter than some 17 year old, and failing miserably.

Get it? Again?

Frohickey
July 8, 2004, 08:04 PM
Can't you sell it back to the Tupperwear lady? :neener:

Shalako
July 8, 2004, 08:52 PM
"The map is not the territory" - Alfred Korzybski

:scrutiny:

OF
July 8, 2004, 10:40 PM
Lose the attitude, mike.

It is clear that you, and strangely nobody else, misunderstood plenty about the post and content in this thread and then took it upon yourself to rudely malign and insult the poster and just about everyone else. Don contributed some very disturbing transcripts from an actual illegal gov't sting operation 'designed to trick you into breaking the law' as evidence that the mild concern here is not just unfounded paranoia. If you don't share that concern, and are certain it's all an innocent mistake (based on what evidence, I have no idea), fine. It's not you who's trying to sell the gun, what do you care?

- Gabe

PS: The bit about the concern over the post count is that the buyer was not a member with a history here and therefore could be anyone, from anywhere - and has nothing to do with 'ignorance'. See, you misunderstood the concern over that too.

JShirley
July 9, 2004, 02:33 AM
1. We have not allowed negative postings about users in the past. The only thing approaching this allowable is feedback in the Rate Transactions forum in the Trading Post area.

2. With this in mind, I have edited out the user name in question from some of your posts.

3. Please remember to address differences in issues, not personality or personal hygiene. If you "need" to talk about those things, use PM or email.

4. We want to give reasonable chances to folks here, and it's easy to be young and inexperienced. I will note that if it walks, talks, smells, and swims like a duck, it's probably not a badger.

Y'all have a good night, now.

John

mikemck
July 9, 2004, 08:47 AM
It is clear that you, and strangely nobody else,

Wrong, at least a few other reasonable people understood that it was probably just a simple misunderstanding. Did you miss that, or just conveniently ignore it?

Don contributed some very disturbing transcripts from an actual illegal gov't sting operation 'designed to trick you into breaking the law' as evidence that the mild concern here is not just unfounded paranoia. If you don't share that concern, and are certain it's all an innocent mistake (based on what evidence, I have no idea), fine. It's not you who's trying to sell the gun, what do you care?

It's not you who's trying to sell the gun either, so what do you care?

PS: The bit about the concern over the post count is that the buyer was not a member with a history here and therefore could be anyone, from anywhere - and has nothing to do with 'ignorance'. See, you misunderstood the concern over that too.

Here is a clue. Anyone on this forum, with any number of posts, could be anyone and you would not have a clue. Get it? I have way more than 7 posts, do you know who I am? Would you know me if you passed me on the street?
Yes, I understood the shallow thinking behind pointing out the post count, and as usual, it's just plain silly.

OF
July 9, 2004, 10:02 AM
Here is a clue. Anyone on this forum, with any number of posts, could be anyone and you would not have a clue. Get it?Thanks for the clue offer, but again you seem to have missed the point but love to pretend you're the only one who 'gets it'. People who have been here for a while do leave a history, or at the very least show a reason for being here other than the transaction in question. They participate, they give information about their lives, they spend time. Someone who contributed 800 posts to this newsgroup and then offered to buy a gun in a manner that raised suspicion is less likely to be suspicious than someone who may have joined specifically to enter into that transaction. So, you did not understand "the shallow thinking behind pointing out the post count" but you went ahead and made rude comments about it just the same. Kind of a pattern with you isn't it. Now to use your extremely rude phrase: GET IT? Did you miss that, or just conveniently ignore it?Sorry to do this to you, Mike, you being the only one with a clue and all, but if you read what I wrote, I wasn't suggesting that you were the only person who thought it might just be a kid. Hell, I think it's probably just a kid too. That's not the point (missing the point is familiar territory for you, isn't it Mike). I was pointing out that you were the only one who misunderstood the post, which is true, or at least you're the only one with the hubris to start raving about it.It's not you who's trying to sell the gun either, so what do you care?I don't like rudeness and I despise people who are habitually rude and insulting to others. I'm bothered by you, Mike, not the transaction.

- Gabe

TamThompson
July 9, 2004, 02:39 PM
I think his handle kind of says it all about his level of maturity. Probably WAS a kid trying to get his hands on a gun. Maybe to take it to school... :eek:

Oleg Volk
July 9, 2004, 05:27 PM
I think this topic has reached its end. Further personal recriminations will have to happen by email, in private. Regardless of intent, the laws are such that the suggested transaction would not be legal.

If you enjoyed reading about "This worries me guys..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!