What Would It Take?


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Turkey Creek
July 7, 2004, 09:29 PM
As I look around at this country in my advanced years (no I'm not telling), it seems to me that the USA is not the same country of my youth, and certainly not the country of my Father- I fully understand that all things change as time marches on, but the changes I see do not appear to me to be for the better- Is there anyone who believes that we have more freedom now than say 25, 50, or 75 years ago?- At my stage of life, with probably not a great deal of time left, it is not so much a personal concern as much as it concerns me for the sake of my children and grandchildren- I am not strictly thinking of Second Amendment Freedoms but of all of them in total that we used to enjoy so much more than now- I could go on forever listing them but we all get the drift here- So to the point- What would it take, if anything, for a Second American Revolution to begin in this country- I fear that even if America continues on what, appears to me, to be it's down hill slide, that we have no New Founding Fathers that would be able to show us the way, and few that would follow- I pray that I am wrong- I pray that this would never be necessary, and that the Country will find itself and reestablish itself as the Champion of Freedom for All- Comments?

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RAY WOODROW 3RD
July 7, 2004, 10:03 PM
Quote:
"What would it take, if anything, for a Second American Revolution to begin in this country-"

Sir,
We all need to draw that line in the sand including yourself. No one is going to say, "Now is the time! Lets do this!" YOU need to take a long look in the mirror and figure out what YOU are going to do about all these things you are discussing above.

Either start educating the "little ones" around you or pick your trigger line when the bastards have gone far enough and stand by it.

No one will egg you on or state anything as to "when" to start up such a thing and I pray to GOD that it does not happen BUT I would rather it happen in my lifetime than my children or grandchildren's time.

Just my .02

RW3

madcowburger
July 7, 2004, 10:47 PM
I don't know what it would take to get a good revolution going either. I kind of think the only things most Americans will actually take up arms for anymore is a good-payin' union job, or someone *else's* property during riots, power outages and the like.

I know what you mean about shrinking/vanishing freedom. A few years ago (late-1990s sometime) country singer and ex-con Merle Haggard said: "In 1960, when I got out of prison as an ex-convict, I had more freedom under parolee supervision than there's available to an average American right now ... God almighty, what have we done to each other?"

I was only three in 1960, and I don't think I have ever drawn a completely free breath in my 47 years of life, but even I can remember times when an American didn't have to just go around *scared* of his own government all the time, when living didn't necessarily mean living *in fear*, like now.
:scrutiny: :uhoh: :scrutiny:

MCB

Standing Wolf
July 8, 2004, 12:23 AM
The obese tend to make mediocre guerrillas.

Dbl0Kevin
July 8, 2004, 12:49 AM
I highly doubt it would happen. To trigger a revolution the gov't would have to take a drastic step that would cause a number of people with their head stuck in the sand to wake up. The people in the government are not stupid enough to try this. People nowadays have been conditioned to accept more government control of their life and they actually welcome it from what it seems to me. Most people believe that they are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves and that the govn't should step in and tell them what is best.....hence seatbelt and helmet laws, gun control laws, laws against prostitution, drugs, etc. These did not just pop up overnight though, cause people of years ago would have freaked out. They were instead introduced gradually over a period of time each coming when the populace was more and more accepting of it. In short I don't see any reason to believe this will stop happening unfortunately.

It's like the saying goes if you want to cook a goose you don't throw it in a pot of boiling water......you put it in a pot of warm water and slowly turn up the heat.

R.H. Lee
July 8, 2004, 01:04 AM
At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at TheUniversity of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves
generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits
from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will
finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

Jeff
July 8, 2004, 01:10 AM
Good God, Riley, that is a grim excerpt. :(

It sounds remarkably accurate, too.

TheFederalistWeasel
July 8, 2004, 01:37 AM
There is a sad truth to this country; one, which I’m sure, can be applied to almost anywhere else.

95% of the population is carried by the remaining 5%.

Just look around you at all the thoughtless and ridiculous things your fellow rock dwellers do on a daily basis. This alone tells me that most do not have it in them to rise up over anything… well okay, maybe something, but it wouldn’t be anything genuine.

Start taking away WWF, Nascar and the like then you’d have HELL on your doorstep, but take away the right of self-defense or the right to peaceably assemble and those 95% who just have no f-ing clue and wander aimlessly thru the day needing others to tell them when, where, how and why to do something would just continue to drift pointlessly as long as there is beer in the fridge and WWF or Nascar on the boob tube.

I deal with the public each and everyday as a Police Officer and I can speak with a little authority when I say that just when you think you’ve seen it all, along comes someone who does something that redefines stupidity and makes you just scratch your head and stair off into the ether and say, “Damn…”

These people cannot spell Constitution much less comprehend what it means and stands for, and you expect them to have the intellect to stand up for something when the time comes?

As long as the politicians leave WWF and Nascar in the tube these mutants will sell their souls and not even realize they’ve done so.


Apologies if this offends anyone but I just very jaded when it comes to my fellow men, I lost faith alone time ago.

Zundfolge
July 8, 2004, 02:01 AM
"The 2nd Revolution" (if it is ever to happen) will begin not with us, the gun toting populace, but within our military.

If at some point the government turns the military against the people there may be factions that rebel ... possibly a military coup.

Lets pray they are led by men of conviction who love liberty and the Constitution.

Barbara
July 8, 2004, 05:53 AM
I'm going to take, once again, the slightly unpopular opinion, and say that while overall, I believe we're becoming more accepting of losing our rights and we're slowly giving a lot of them away..especially the 4th right now, for women, freedom has improved a lot in that time period. 50 years ago, I didn't have the right to work at any job I was qualified for, I couldn't keep a bank account without my husband's permission, etc. So, that's a plus. For me, anyway. :)

tyme
July 8, 2004, 06:28 AM
Yep. You could say the same thing about rights for minorities.

Is it impossible to have women's lib or rights for minorities without government handouts and statist laws? I don't think so. It's obvious that people are more equal under the law today than they were 50 years ago. However, even if the average citizen's freedom increased from 1960-1980 due to civil rights improvements for women and minorities, that average has been in decline for the last couple decades.

I think it's clear where we are on Prof. Tyler's timeline -- dependence. Next stop: bondage.

NIGHTWATCH
July 8, 2004, 06:32 AM
Think of what a handful of militia has accomplished in Iraq. Now think about how much you love your country and your freedom. Now, ask yourself if you would be willing to die for it if you could nolonger have it... liberty or death.

Americans are sheep....sheep that love sitcoms, softporn musicians, fast food and fantasy. They will wake up and / or be willing to die for the cause of freedom when their pleasure has been removed. When they can nolonger forget or seek to forget, but its going to have to get Really bad for this to happen.

In the meantime, the government will do everything in its corrupt power to get our guns.

Our Guns Will Be The Issue That Sets The Nation on Fire...Again.

porciniman
July 8, 2004, 08:17 AM
Here is part of a speech that Charlton Heston gave to Harvard law School Grads. I think he's pretty close to where we are now.


"In his book, "The End of Sanity," Martin Gross writes that "blatantly irrational behavior is rapidly being established as the norm in almost every area of human endeavor. There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us from every direction. Underneath, the nation is roiling. Americans know something without a name is undermining the nation, turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. And they don't like it."

Let me read a few examples.
At Antioch college in Ohio, young men seeking intimacy with a coed must get verbal permission at each step of the process from kissing to petting to final copulation ... all clearly spelled out in a printed college directive.

In New Jersey, despite the death of several patients nationwide who had been infected by dentists who had concealed their AIDs --- the state commissioned announced that health providers who are HIV-positive need not..... need not..... tell their patients that they are infected.

At William and Mary, students tried to change the name of the school team "The Tribe" because it was supposedly insulting to local Indians, only to learn that authentic Virginia chiefs truly like the name.

In San Francisco, city fathers passed an ordinance protecting the rights of transvestites to cross-dress on the job, and for transsexuals to have separate toilet facilities while undergoing sex change surgery.

In New York City, kids who don't speak a word of Spanish have been placed in bilingual classes to learn their three R's in Spanish solely because their last names sound Hispanic.

At the University of Pennsylvania, in a state where thousands died at Gettysburg opposing slavery, the president of that college officially set up segregated dormitory space for black students. Yeah, I know ... that's out of bounds now. Dr. King said "Negroes." Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said "black." But it's a no-no now.

For me, hyphenated identities are awkward ... particularly "Native-American." I'm a Native American, for God's sake. I also happen to be a blood-initiated brother of the Miniconjou Sioux. On my wife's side, my grandson is a thirteenth generation native American... with a capital letter on "American."

Finally, just last month ... David Howard, head of the Washington D.C. Office of Public Advocate, used the word "niggardly" while talking to colleagues about budgetary matters. Of course, "niggardly" means stingy or scanty. But within days Howard was forced to publicly apologize and resign. As columnist Tony Snow wrote: "David Howard got fired because some people in public employ were morons who (a) didn't know the meaning of niggardly,(b) didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the meaning, and (c) actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance."

What does all of this mean? It means that telling us what to think has evolved into telling us what to say , so telling us what to do can't be far behind. Before you claim to be a champion of free thought, tell me: Why did political correctness originate on America's campuses? And why do you continue to tolerate it? Why do you, who're supposed to debate ideas, surrender to their suppression? Let's be honest. Who here thinks your professors can say what they really believe? It scares me to death, and should scare you too, that the superstition of political correctness rules the halls of reason. You are the best and the rightist. You, here in the fertile cradle of American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River, you are the cream. But I submit that you, and your counterparts across the land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation since Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that and abide it ... you are - by your grandfathers' standards - cowards.

Here's another example. Right now at more than one major university, Second Amendment scholars and researchers are being told to shut up about their findings or they'll lose their jobs. Why? Because their research findings would undermine big-city mayor's pending lawsuits that seek to extort hundreds of millions of dollars from firearm manufacturers. I don't care what you think about guns. But if you are not shocked at that, I am shocked at you. Who will guard the raw material of unfettered ideas, if not you?

Who will defend the core value of academia, if you supposed soldiers of free thought and expression lay down your arms and plead, "Don't shoot me." If you talk about race, it does not make you a racist. If you see distinctions between the genders, it does not make you a sexist. If you think critically about a denomination, it does not make you anti-religion.

If you accept but don't celebrate homosexuality, it does not make you a homophobe. Don't let America's universities continue to serve as incubators for this rampant epidemic of new McCarthyism.

But what can you do? How can anyone prevail against such pervasive social subjugation? The answer's been here all along. I learned it 36 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C., standing with Dr. Martin Luther King and two hundred thousand people. You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely. But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don't. We disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom. I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King ...who learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great man who led those in the right against those with the might.

Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Vietnam. In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws that weaken personal freedom.

But be careful ... it hurts. Disobedience demands that you put yourself at risk. Dr. King stood on lots of balconies. You must be willing to be humiliated ... to endure the modern-day equivalent of the police dogs at Montgomery and the water cannons at Selma. You must be willing to experience discomfort. I'm not complaining, but my own decades of social activism have taken their toll on me.

Let me tell you a story. A few years back I heard about a rapper named Ice-T who was selling a CD called "Cop Killer" celebrating ambushing and murdering police officers. It was being marketed by none other than Time/Warner, the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world. Police across the country were outraged. Rightfully so-at least one had been murdered. But Time/Warner was stonewalling because the CD was a cash cow for them, and the media were tiptoeing around it because the rapper was black. I heard Time/Warner had a stockholders meeting scheduled in Beverly Hills. I owned some shares at the time, so I decided to attend. What I did there was against the advice of my family and colleagues. I asked for the floor. To a hushed room of a thousand average American stockholders, I simply read the full lyrics of "Cop Killer"- every vicious, vulgar, instructional word.

"I GOT MY 12 GAUGE SAWED OFF
I GOT MY HEADLIGHTS TURNED OFF
I'M ABOUT TO BUST SOME SHOTS OFF
I'M ABOUT TO DUST SOME COPS OFF..."

It got worse, a lot worse. I won't read the rest of it to you. But trust me, the room was a sea of shocked, frozen, blanched faces. The Time/Warner executives squirmed in their chairs and stared at their shoes. They hated me for that. Then I delivered another volley of sick lyric brimming with racist filth, where Ice-T fantasizes about sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and Tipper Gore.

"SHE PUSHED HER BUTT AGAINST MY ...."

Well, I won't do to you here what I did to them. Let's just say I left the room in echoing silence. When I read the lyrics to the waiting press corps, one of them said "We can't print that."

"I know," I replied, "but Time/Warner's selling it."

Two months later, Time/Warner terminated Ice-T's contract. I'll never be offered another film by Warner's, or get a good review from Time magazine. But disobedience means you must be willing to act, not just talk. When a mugger sues his elderly victim for defending herself ... jam the switchboard of the district attorney's office. When your university is pressured to lower standards until 80% of the students graduate with honors... choke the halls of the board of regents. When an 8-year-old boy pecks a girl's cheek on the playground and gets hauled into court for sexual harassment ... march on that school and block its doorways. When someone you elected is seduced by political power and betrays you...petition them, oust them, banish them. When Time magazine's cover portrays millennium nuts as deranged, crazy Christians holding a cross as it did last month ...boycott their magazine and the products it advertises.

So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the hallowed footsteps of the great disobedience's of history that freed exiles, founded religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of an aroused rabble in arms and a few great men, by God's grace, built this country. If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree."


I think that pretty much says it all!
Cheers, VB

oldfart
July 8, 2004, 02:36 PM
TYME said: "It's obvious that people are more equal under the law today than they were 50 years ago."

I found an essay by a guy named Joe Bommarito last year and he had this to say about freedom and equality:

"The inherent vice of freedom is the unequal sharing of the blessings; the inherent blessing of equality is is the equal sharing of misery."

Makes sense to me...

Moparmike
July 8, 2004, 09:51 PM
porciniman, where did you get that speech? When was it given? It is a great one, btw. Thanks for posting that.

warmi
July 8, 2004, 10:34 PM
"Think of what a handful of militia has accomplished in Iraq"

Uh ... nothing.

Take away the hysterical press reports and you are left with about 1000 dead as a total cost for occupying a large country over 16 months period.

This is an absolutely amazing record which underscores that untrained and lightly equipped militia has absolutely no chance against highly trained high-tech force -regardless of their motivation.

pinblaster
July 8, 2004, 11:47 PM
My guess would be taxes. When the average person starts having to give up more than 50 percent of thier gross income to the govt. the dookie will hit the fan. Hopefully this will never happen. :uhoh:

NoHarmNoFAL
July 9, 2004, 12:04 AM
Never happen, the golden years of America are gone folks. We are in the waning years prior to total socialism. In 10 years the WWII generation will be 99% gone and then we will be left with the Vietnam America haters to be the wise old leaders. This country is gone, and it will never come back. You try to take it back you become a domestic terrorist. You use the soap box and ballot box, you are just some right-wing nut job that just doesn't get it. Sad to say it but all we can do now is just prolong the inevitable. As long as there is Wal-Mart to buy cheap junk and Hollywood to entertain, regardless of content, the people are just going to continue to be fat, dumb and happy. You go screwing with that and you become the enemy by saving the rights that they don't even want.

BTR
July 9, 2004, 12:25 AM
Well, black people are no longer lynched by gleeful crowds of "good citizens" and have much more in the way of legal protections. Women have much more freedom. I think you are all being too pessimistic... the fact is that human beings generally think past times were better... remember the good and forget the bad.

one45auto
July 9, 2004, 12:34 AM
Sadly, I believe that by the time it ever becomes necessary to fight there won't be enough Americans willing to do so. They will have been emasculated, brainwashed, and indoctrinated to the point of blind obedience - not to mention being self-interested and totally apathetic.

God help the poor patriots who will be left among them.

saddenedcitizen
July 9, 2004, 07:25 PM
Start adding up ALL of your taxes AND payments to
government in any form -
Income Tax
FICA
Sales Tax
Property Tax
Gasoline Tax
Phone Tax(s)
Natural Gas Tax
Electric Tax
Water Tax
Car Inspection
Automobile License
Building Permits
Tax on investments
Inheritance Tax
In some places (NY) tax on doctor, dentist and lawyer fees
In some places (OK) tax on proceeds from a garage sale !!!!
Tax on gambling winnings
Lotteries (a tax on people who are poor at math !!!)

The list is ALMOST endless

As I once told a local councilman at a town meeting -
We got to this point with a dime here and a dollar there
and another one-half percent on this or that.

At the next meeting I attend I fully intend to ask the
following question in front of, hopefully, a large crowd
of attendees.

Exactly how much of MY money do any of you think you
'need' to run this town before you will be satisfied ??

Followed by

I know the answer, I just want to see if any of you
has the guts to actually SAY it !!!

pinblaster
July 9, 2004, 09:12 PM
Yes, I'm well aware of the other taxes we have to pay :barf: but I am talking about when middle class people like me who work for a paycheck see that they are taking home less than half the money they earn. :scrutiny: :cuss: IMO we the people should do away with the income tax altogether but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

ProGlock
July 9, 2004, 09:30 PM
Here's my short, simple opinion:

The last peaceful solution available to us is to put a third party into office, whether it be a libertarian or reform party...just someone else.

If not, well, god bless those courageous men and women who stand up for all that is good. I might be one of them.

buy guns
July 9, 2004, 09:34 PM
when did the infamous john titor say the second civil war happened? around 2015? its getting to be more believable.

ProGlock
July 9, 2004, 09:47 PM
If I recall, he said things started going downhill in 2005.

Justin
July 9, 2004, 10:27 PM
Um, you guys do know that the John Titor thing was a hoax, right? :scrutiny:

JPM70535
July 10, 2004, 05:36 AM
In today's climate of looking to the Government for every need (Cradle to Grave mentality), IMO there is nothing that would precipitate a second Revolution. Conditioned as they are to life attached to the Federal Teat, all most of the citizenry desire is more "Bread and Circuses"

Having been fortunate enough to grow up in the Fifties when there was still a goodly amount of personal freedom to be enjoyed, I feel the loss of those freedoms deeply. Example: being able to walk down the street with my 22 rifle slung over my shoulder and be greeted by the local Police with the admonition to "Have Fun" and a friendly wave of his hand. Try that today!

The time when the mindset of the average citizen would have demanded revolution to restore the rights taken away or restricted is long past. We are for the most part a nation of sheep.

My only regret is that I probably will not be here when the few Patriots left among us decide to take up arms to right the wrongs.

God Bless the USA (What is left of it)

buy guns
July 10, 2004, 11:34 PM
Um, you guys do know that the John Titor thing was a hoax, right?


yeah of course but how funny would it be if some of those fake predictions came true.

TamThompson
July 11, 2004, 05:46 PM
Mr. Turkey,
We all have our lines in the sand, whether we consciously realize them or not. Some of mine are:

1. Trying to take my guns away.
2. Trying to put me, my family, or friends in a FEMA camp.
3. Trying to get me to shut up (I'm a professional author and freelance writer.)

As to the John Titor thing--yes, it's getting scarier and scarier. I'm a science-fiction writer, and I'm undecided if it's a hoax or not, since I like to keep an open mind. Whatever it was, it was very, very well done and I wouldn't be surprised if the poster has published some science fiction IF it is a hoax. If not...get the heck away from DC in 2012!

13A
July 11, 2004, 06:23 PM
I don't think it will happen because of taxes. The fed guvmint is buying off more of the masses each year with handouts. More taxes on a shrinking group of tax payers to give to a growing group of tax receivers.

The dwindling group of tax payers have too much to lose to rock the boat.

The growing group of tax receivers have too much to gain by maintaining the status quo.

I doubt it will happen over guns either. They'll not try to take them, just tax them or maybe just tax ammunition to the hilt. Look at the taxes on cigarets for the model they will use.

GeneC
July 11, 2004, 06:53 PM
Turkey Creek, you need to describe the "freedoms" you used to enjoy that are not here today. You also need to acknowledge the difference between freedom and liberty.

ProGlock
July 11, 2004, 10:37 PM
I'd like to post something that I hope everyone who reads will take a minute to really think about it.

Will you recognize a second revolution if it happens? Our government and media will spin it as domestic terrorism and bashing the characters of the people who choose to stand up as probably being insane baby killers are something equally terrible.

We must all learn to see through the bias that our government and media purport. We must also learn to recognize what situations would call forth a time to stand up as a people. A handful of modern day patriots can only last so long...give them your support as reinforcement to let them know they are not alone in the values and freedoms they cherish.

buy guns
July 11, 2004, 11:15 PM
Will you recognize a second revolution if it happens?


if a real revolution were to happen (by real i mean not a few guys shooting up a court house) then i'll jump right in and help.


if the media wants to put a spin on things we'll just have to take over a news station.

ProGlock
July 12, 2004, 11:43 AM
In all practicality, it should not be started in the way you mentioned (shooting up a courthouse).

One way would be for a large, armed group to make a joint effort against federal forces. State law enforcement centers or judicial buildings must never be a target...only federal. One method would be for this group to move into the building en masse and immediately demand the withdrawl of all employees from the building and to not return. Repeat said scenario with other federal buildings...granted I would not believe some to give up as easily as others, hence why a demonstration of a large armed populace is needed to properly persuade them.

Shooting up a courthouse or blowing up a federal building is absolutely the wrong way to do things. You will come out the bad guy each and every time, and you actually are. The effort must be concentrated against the single entity you are revolting against: the federal government. As soon as such a hypothetical operation is in place, statements should be made immediately to let the state and local governments know that they are not the target nor will any harm come to them.

1. Select your target and stick to it. Do not start picking other targets unless they demonstrate intent to do grave harm against you.

2. Use non-violent methods to "persuade" them from their jobs and resources always. Only when lethal force is used against you are you to return fire.

3. Show respect to those people/entities you are fighting even if they do not show it to you.

4. Always take an opportunity to let the people know why you are fighting. Let them know your reasons and let them see your determination. If fellow Americans were to see people fighting for a cause, putting their lives on the line, it will have an impact. Having the power of the people behind your cause is probably the ultimate force anyone could ever hope for.

ClonaKilty
July 12, 2004, 05:23 PM
for a Second American Revolution to begin in this country

For me it would have to be a modern equivalent of Kristallnacht. I am as laissez-faire as they come, but high taxes and smarmy cops do not justify assassinating elected officials.

GigaBuist
July 12, 2004, 06:00 PM
Yes, I'm well aware of the other taxes we have to pay but I am talking about when middle class people like me who work for a paycheck see that they are taking home less than half the money they earn. IMO we the people should do away with the income tax altogether but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Seriously, pinblaster, you are, or at least you were in the mid 90's according to Paul Harvey. Not the best source in the world -- but you get the idea. It's really really close either way.

After the Bush Tax Cuts my off-the-bat take-home is only about 26% less than Gross when you look at the federal government. Smack 4% on that for State income tax and then figure I don't actually save money -- 6% sales tax on that -- but I don't spend all my money on taxable goods so we'll say i1/3rd of my income isn't hit with sales tax. That's a 32% tax rate right there. Now figure I spedn 15% of my money on guns and ammo -- which is hit with an additional 10% tax. That's another 1.5% of my income and we're now at 33.5%. Those are just the obvious ones!

Heck, here in Michigan we pay about 45cents per gallon of gax in taxes right now. That's 25% of all the money I spend on gas going to a government of some type. That adds up pretty quick!

Got a phone? Taxed. Rent a hotel room on vacation? Extra taxes. The list goes on and on and on. You add it up and it's over 50% now. Trust me.

Nobody notices though.

Selfdfenz
July 12, 2004, 06:36 PM
"One way would be for a large, armed group to make a joint effort against federal forces. State law enforcement centers or judicial buildings must never be a target...only federal. One method would be for this group to move into the building en masse and immediately demand the withdrawl of all employees from the building and to not return."

Isn't that what John Brown did basically?

I continue to hope ballots will eventually aim the country in a better direction. (I don't think it will happen in the election soon to come given the candidates)

The end point of revolution is not precise and many revolutions that began with aims of more freedom and enhancements in republican/democratic rule, ended in dictatorships IIRC.

At one time I believed in the logic and right headedness that our LE and military would be on the right side (with the people) in the extremely unlikely event this country ever fell on the hardest of times.
Not sure I still hold that opinion.

S-

PBIR
July 12, 2004, 06:45 PM
Sadly, I believe that by the time it ever becomes necessary to fight there won't be enough Americans willing to do so. They will have been emasculated, brainwashed, and indoctrinated to the point of blind obedience - not to mention being self-interested and totally apathetic.

That pretty much sums up my views too. I doubt one man in 100 has the combination of skills & will necessary to fight (though the other 99 could make useful cannon-fodder). Brutal, aren't I? :D

pinblaster
July 12, 2004, 07:04 PM
Giga B. , I understand perfectly what you are saying . The gov. taxes the money you earn and they tax the money you spend . This is why I am against an income tax (not to mention the Ponzi scheme called social security) . You could be right when you say the sum of all the taxes the average person pays is .50 or greater than thier gross income . My point is , when you look at the stub on your paycheck and see that your net pay is less than .50 of what you earned , you may wonder why you bother to work at all :banghead: , then again , you may not . Who knows ? Unless the gov. bocomes a monarcy , dictatorship , or some other totatlitarian regime , a revolution would be pointless , since we are a gov. of the people , by the people and for the people we would only be overthrowing ourselves , kind of like a dog chasing it's tail . We already have a way to change things for the better , it's called voting . People have to get up off thier a$$es and vote ! Vote in the primary elections , vote in the local elections , vote everytime you can . These polititions wern't appointed they were elected , by us . Remember , if you don't vote , someone else will do it for you .

NoHarmNoFAL
July 12, 2004, 07:14 PM
There will be no large movement until there is a stoppage of service whether by not being able to afford them or poor management (i.e. blackout 04 but much longer)
You take away gasoline, electricity, and the readily available food then changes are much more likely to happen. Taxes on food transportation is huge (fuel taxes/license) when it no longer becomes profitable for truckers to drive then the whole system will shut down. No more Wal-mart no more Malls no gas even if you could afford it. There will be a time soon when it is just not going to be worth the trouble to work because you won't get enough in return. Then there will be enough upset people to get the attention of the .gov.

Side bar:

What makes you so sure that when AmRev2/Civ2 comes about that
1) We (the right/gun nuts) will start it.
2) IF we do, that the outcome will be in our favor. Be careful of what you wish you just may get it and not like very much.

Moparmike
July 12, 2004, 07:25 PM
Walmart would last longer in that situation because they are their own trucking line. Few things are shipped to Wally World that aren't in their own trucks.

Penforhire
July 12, 2004, 09:00 PM
I'm certainly not wishing for it but the question is valid. Hard to compare with the situation of our founding fathers. I just happened to re-read our Declaration of Independence at lunch today. Their list of grievances shows that King George was too blatant. He didn't turn up the heat slowly.

Our Federal government today is most certainly turning up the heat slowly. There was a jump after 9/11 where they could get away with a jump (e.g. the Patriot Act) but even before this there has been an accumulation of laws seemingly designed to make us all law-breakers.

The progression posted above is scary. How do we prevent dependence? I'm not "on the dole." Most of you don't seem to be either. So does that make us still independent?

I think McVeigh and his friends are nut jobs but how would you distinguish that from a real revolution? Maybe blowing up a Fed building isn't smart but it seems like THEY thought it was the right thing to do.

More likely than revolution is simple "dilution." I see the dilution of America in bilingual voting pamplets (not bilingual or ESL education, that's the answer not the problem). The rights of families to raise children as they see fit has been diluted. Foreigners owning our land is a dilution (go try that in THEIR countries. You only get a lease buddy boy). Maybe the next dilution will be to lower the voting age. Yeah, some whack-job will come along and say ten year olds should be allowed to vote, despite having nothing but jello between the ears. So anyway, maybe decay by dilution is where we're headed.

one45auto
July 12, 2004, 10:04 PM
Yeah, some whack-job will come along and say ten year olds should be allowed to vote, despite having nothing but jello between the ears.

I hear the Democrats are already trying to lower the voting age in California. Ten year-olds would be a dream come true for them - voters physically able to push the right button yet completely uninformed, and easily swayed by promises of more spending money and privileges. :rolleyes:

NoHarmNoFAL
July 12, 2004, 11:38 PM
The right to private property and privacy on said property was one of the key items that the FF's wanted to be sacred.

Foreigners owning our land is a dilution (go try that in THEIR countries. You only get a lease buddy boy).

Don't pay your "Lease" payment to the government and see how long you still own that property. It is all about incrimentalization (sp). I think that may have shown its self in 1994 when the Dems got smacked around in the mid-term election and lost control. The next time it will be much more subtle or it will have more reproductions. Though I'm not convinced that they don't want an outright violent reaction so that marshal law can be called and then the whip can really be cracked.

DRZinn
July 13, 2004, 12:12 AM
On the tax thing:

It's waaaaaay over 50%. Think about all the things businesses are required by law to provide for their employees, all the environmental studies you have to do to build something, all the various assorted bulls--t that businesse are forced to pay.

ALL passed on to the consumer. (If not, the business would close.)

NIGHTWATCH
July 13, 2004, 12:49 AM
:(

N3rday
July 13, 2004, 03:38 AM
I was skimming threads and caught this:

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at TheUniversity of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves
generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits
from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will
finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

Wow.

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