.25 ACP Expansion


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9 m&m
July 8, 2004, 04:53 PM
Has anyone ever got a .25 to expand? If so I would like to see pics please. I am especially talking about the 35 gr. Gold Dots, but any bullet will do. Thanx!!!:)

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WilderBill
July 8, 2004, 05:47 PM
If it did, it would penetrate even less.
If you intend to defend yourself from anything bigger than a rat , then get a bigger gun.

critter
July 8, 2004, 06:13 PM
Only way to get it to expand is to take a SPENT bullet, lay it on an anvil and 'whoop' it with a large hammer!

Col Cooper said something to the effect of--If you ever had to shoot somebody with a .25 (and they found out about it!), they would be very upset!

WonderNine
July 8, 2004, 06:34 PM
Ya whatever. Anyways back to reality...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1106656

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=599113&highlight=.25#post599113

Badger Arms
July 8, 2004, 07:11 PM
If it did, it would penetrate even less.Very true. Why would you want to take something that already underpenetrates and get it to penetrate less? That's some right good expansion out of a snubby in the photo above. It would sure hurt, but I want it to go a little deeper than that. What are the penetration figures for an FMJ bullet? That would be an interesting comparrison.

Jim K
July 8, 2004, 08:08 PM
Critter wrote:

"Col Cooper said something to the effect of--If you ever had to shoot somebody with a .25 (and they found out about it!), they would be very upset!"

Like much of the good colonel's pontificating, this is crap. A lot of people have been shot with the .25 auto and they found out about it by dying. I knew one of them, and he died just as fast as he would have had he been shot with a .30-'06. I wish supposedly intelligent people would stop making stupid statements, joking or not. The .25 ACP is a deadly weapon; it may not be the weapon of choice for most folks, but it can and will kill. Anyone who makes light of that has beans for brains.

Jim

Dr.Rob
July 8, 2004, 08:39 PM
I had a friend killed with a .25 fired into a crowd. He was a big muscular kid who probably would have scoffed at the "killing power" of a .25.

I still think an FMJ is better than an HP in a small caliber like that.

Badger Arms
July 8, 2004, 09:37 PM
To second what Jim said, the 25 is certainly down low on the power list, but it is still a deadly caliber. If anybody's ever heard me rant about this, I'm sorry, but here goes again.

ANY gun is a 99% stopper. If you look at statistics, 99% of the time you do not have to fire a shot to stop the hostile action. HAVING the gun is the important part here. Even the THREAT of having a gun probably prevents 10 times that number of incidents as bad guns pre-screen their victims. For instance, what nutcase would, in his right mind, rob me? I'm 6'3" tall and weigh 235 pounds. Even unarmed I'm probably not going to get attacked. If they try anything, I carry a 32 auto pistol. 99% of the time when I have to present that weapon, said BG will cease his hostile activity before I have a need to pull the trigger.

Now, a 25 will probably stop a BG 40-50% of the time when you shoot them COM. What's funny is that a cap gun will probably stop 30-40% of BG's and you don't have to aim that. A 32 is slightly better, and then you climb into calibers that break bones, smash tissue, and rip holes in the Heart and Lungs. Calibers like the 40S&W, 45ACP, 9mm, 357 Mag or Sig, etc. are all going to bring a confrontation to a stop quickly so long as you can get a COM shot off.

But remember that you're talking 1% of the cases when a gunshot is required and then you're really only dealing with .5% of all firearms engagements where a 25 is any different than the king of personal defense handguns, the 357 Magnum. Given that I'll probably leave my 357 at home when I've got my 25 or 32, I'd say that they are going to be more effective. Soapbox dismount in progress...

Bopleo
July 8, 2004, 10:29 PM
LAPD used to use it years ago to blow the kneecaps off of people.
They would put it behind the knee and use it as a truth serum, it worked great.

David4516
July 9, 2004, 12:50 AM
I agree... a .25 is not the best "manstopper" out there... but it can still kill you just as dead as a .50 BMG

I have a beretta 950 "Jetfire" in .25 ACP. I carry it fairly often (most of the time along with my Makarov). It's small, accurate, and most importantly reliable. It has a capacity of 8+1. It's a good little pistol and I'd recomend it to just about anybody looking for a "mouse gun".

That said it can be hard to find JHPs in this caliber that will expand. I tried the gold dots and they didn't expand. Or at least I couldn't get them to. My expansion test consits of shooting a water jug and recovering the bullet.

Anyway, I decided that .25 ACP factory ammo was too costly and on the weak side, so I started hand-loading for the caliber.

.25 ACP Load Data (http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/ReloadingSupplementalDATA/25_auto.pdf)

So far the only load I've used has been 1.7 gr of Bullseye with 35 gr Hornady XTP bullets. This load gives 975 FPS (74 energy) and they DO EXPAND, to .32 caliber or so.

I might try so other loads latter but this combo seems to work well so I'll probably just stick with it...

russlate
July 9, 2004, 02:19 AM
My concern is with ball ammo, which has a tendency to not penetrate the skull if fired other than at a 90 degree angle. I want a JHP for it's "cookie cutter" effect, rather than for it's expansion.

Badger Arms
July 9, 2004, 02:27 AM
My concern is with ball ammo, which has a tendency to not penetrate the skull if fired other than at a 90 degree angle.This is an urban myth and, at any rate, is not supported by any studies I've seen. Besides that, you are shooting center of mass, not at the head.

RatFink
July 9, 2004, 02:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
russlate;

My concern is with ball ammo, which has a tendency to not penetrate the skull if fired other than at a 90 degree angle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Badger Arms;

This is an urban myth and, at any rate, is not supported by any studies I've seen. Besides that, you are shooting center of mass, not at the head


I've posted this before, so I'll just quote from the old post.

My brother was the target of a home invasion robbery in 1985 (Back before they were trendy) he had his hands tied behind his back, on his knees and was shot muzzle to meat at the base of the back of his skull with a .25, the bullet entered the skin but not his skull, it then slid down the back of his neck and stopped, he laid down and played dead. The doctors left the bullet in because it was in a funky place. The next day he was released with 3 stitches and felt better than I did (I had a real bad hangover when I went to get him from the hospital)

The other person in the house was a quadriplegic that my brother took care of, he was shot 5 times in the face and neck with the same pistol yet lived for another 8 years after the attack, when he died it was because of his other health problems.

So these ".25 stories" may seem like just urban myths to some people, to me they are real.

lbmii
July 10, 2004, 09:40 AM
My Dad was in a bad car wreck and spent two months in intensive care. The man in the room next to him had been shot through the head with a small 25 auto. The bullet had entered just above one ear went through his brain crossways and then back out just above his other ear. He was in a deep comma for about three weeks before they stopped life support.

I carried a very good little 25 auto for years until I replaced it with a Kel Tec 3AT. It was a single action exposed hammer FIE Titian made in Italy. If you ever come upon one they are good pistols.

The 25 I carried had way more stopping power than my 40 caliber, 5 1/3 inch barrel, tactical Glock 35 due to the fact that the Glock is back home in my safe.

SapperLeader
July 10, 2004, 12:54 PM
.25 caliber is certainly not my first choice of defensive pisols, but If I was carrying one I would carry fmj for the penetration. .380 is the smallest caliber I use hollow points with. My .32 I use fiochi fmj, and I would consider the same load for the .25.

bad_dad_brad
July 10, 2004, 11:52 PM
The .25 ACP in hardball is a deadly penetrator. Consider that I have killed large raccoons instantly with head shots using .20 air gun driven pellets at about 600 fps, albeit at very close range (within 20 feet). A large raccoon is not that different than a human.

If I had a Beretta Jetfire 950 with eight .25 hardballs, at close range, I would feel comfortable to defend myself if I could get a head shot, particularly an ocular shot.

You can piss all you want on the .25 ACP and wish it away, but it has saved many a life, because the vehicle that launched the tiny caliber has been small and light, so most likely to be carried.

Still everything can be improved upon, and now when I grab a pocket pistol, it is the featherweight .32 ACP KelTec P32 I take. My Jetfire stays in my drawer. But I still would not hesitate to rely on it if I had to.

Badger Arms
July 11, 2004, 12:25 AM
Yes, I've heard that story before. No doubt it happened, but I do doubt this is a typical case. There is no magical law of physics that only the 25 is allowed to follow but other bullets aren't. Ball ammo is ball ammo. Sure it will deflect, but not beyond the laws of physics. It is a round chunk of metal traveling at a pretty good velocity. The 25 auto stops many an encounter, kills many people, and barks really loud. I'll be happy with my 99.4% stopper when I choose to carry it. Of course, it really is a matter of opinion and peace of mind. Those who disagree with me SHOULD carry larger calibers. I feel fine with my 32 KT, don't feel the need to get the 380. Some feel undergunned with a 9mm.

Zircon
July 12, 2004, 01:13 AM
Sorry to all the .25 ACP defenders, but personally, I'd take a .22 LR any day, and for certain a .22 WMR.

I've done penetration tests with .25 ACP hardball on a 1" pine board. It won't at point blank range fired out of a Baby Browning - just they type of pistol people have been talking about in this thread. My .22 pellet rifle does better than that.

RatFink
July 12, 2004, 01:27 AM
Badger Arms,

I'm guessing that your post is in reply to my story.

I actually agree that the .25 has been used many times doing just what it should... defending the person using it. It probably has it's place, and it would be much better than having nothing. My point really is that while others can listen to the stories and shrug them off as just "those few weird cases" for me it was made personal, for me it isn't just a story in a magazine, or on the WWW. So for me it's harder to just shrug off.

David4516
July 12, 2004, 01:59 AM
Zircon, I like your Local... "Orygun" LOL...

I'd take a .25 ACP over a .22LR anyday however... at least in a pocket pistol.

The .25 has a slight balistic advantage (50 gr bullets instead of 33 gr) but what really makes it better is the reliability factor. A .22 is much more likely to jam...

WonderNine
July 12, 2004, 02:27 AM
My .22 pellet rifle does better than that.

As far as I know, the most powerful .22 pellet rifles are about half the fpe as a .22lr or .25ACP out of a 2" barrel.

Badger Arms
July 12, 2004, 09:41 AM
My .22 pellet rifle does better than that.This must be in that mysterious place in the Universe called the "Browning Vortex" where the laws of physics are suspended to allow the 25 ACP to do all sorts of anemic things like bouncing off cellophane and falling on the ground once it leaves the barrel of the gun. Why it's been told that you can spit one out after you put it in your mouth and pull the trigger. :rolleyes:

Jim K
July 12, 2004, 05:18 PM
To prove(?) that the .45 ACP has no power, an "expert" once told me that the .45 would not penetrate a silk handkerchief (the handkerchief had to be silk!). He stated that if the handkerchief was held by the top corners, a .45 bullet fired at it would hit it, stop, and drop to the ground.

I said I very much doubted that, and suggested a demonstration, saying I would even provide the handkerchief and the gun. He said he was in a hurry and didn't have time to fool around, and that I was obviously an idiot for not believing him.

He did tell me he would be back the next day to provide proof. That was in 1958 and I am still waiting.

Jim

Gordon
July 13, 2004, 01:09 AM
This thread is very entertaining!:p The king of the laughs being:"LAPD used to use it years ago to blow the kneecaps off of people.
They would put it behind the knee and use it as a truth serum, it worked great." BTW I just shot my .25ACP into a fir 2x4 stack 2 minutes ago . With Winchester 'pellet nose" my Baby Browning penetrated 2.5" of fir , and the 950 Berreta another 1/2" for about 3". The Bullet expanded to .33"

Zircon
July 25, 2004, 08:04 PM
This must be in that mysterious place in the Universe called the "Browning Vortex" where the laws of physics are suspended to allow the 25 ACP to do all sorts of anemic things like bouncing off cellophane and falling on the ground once it leaves the barrel of the gun. Why it's been told that you can spit one out after you put it in your mouth and pull the trigger.

Sorry, in my universe the pellet rifle penetrated the 1" board. The 25 ACP did not. Both fired at about 3' from the board. Please note well: I'm not saying a .22 pellet has more energy than the 25 ACP, but out of my two weapons, it indisputedly has more penetration.

carpettbaggerr
July 25, 2004, 08:18 PM
A large raccoon is not that different than a human. How large are the coons in your neck of the woods? :what:

WonderNine
July 25, 2004, 10:07 PM
Sorry, in my universe the pellet rifle penetrated the 1" board. The 25 ACP did not. Both fired at about 3' from the board. Please note well: I'm not saying a .22 pellet has more energy than the 25 ACP, but out of my two weapons, it indisputedly has more penetration.

I'm gonna have to try that test with a 2X4 some time and see what happens. What ammo did you use?

My guess it that a FMJ 50gr. round will penetrate through the 2" side, but maybe not the 4".

Zircon
July 25, 2004, 11:16 PM
Winchester ball. I guess it was 50 grain. These were not results I expected but, nontheless, don't enhance my confidence in the round.

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