Scenes from a Philippine Gun Show :)


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horge
July 8, 2004, 08:44 PM
I thought it would be nice to share what a Philippine gunshow is like,
with the other folks on THR.


First day of the Gun Show at the Mega Mall (MegaTrade Hall) in Metro Manila.
As expected, the place was fairly crowded--even by Philippine standards, though the air was nice, fresh and cool. I and my wife got there just after it opened, and well, here are the few pics I could snap that weren't completely obscured by the milling throng.

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowentrance.jpg
P50.00 entrance ticket for adults. That's about 90 cents US.

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowarmscor.jpg
The Armscor booth was a little better laid out than last year, spreading the autoloaders over a longer stretch to prevent overcrowding. Their Tanfoglio showcase generated moderate interest. The rest was still too crowded to get a good pic, so I shot their large display area from the shotguns side. Customer service was excellent this year, despite the inquiry overload. The Armscor GI's were massively-improved over last year's. The park was so much better, and the rattle was almost all gone. The barrels are still this funky chrome-finish, and the triggerguard isn't as rounded as it should be, but I nearly bought one on the spot. Maybe Monday, when the crowds are thinner/saner.

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowshooter2.jpg
Across and further down the aisle, the large SAM booth wasn't quite set up yet, but there was a lot of interest in their SAM pistols and their spare, forged slides, and questions as to whether those would drop-in fit an Armscor frame. Nice selection of imports (BUL, Para, etc.) though their Jennings and Lorcins were as always, good for many yuks.

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowtwinpines.jpg
The Twin Pines booth was less centrally-located than last year's. Their home-brand Rock Island Armory (RIA) 1911's and their imported S&W's (with some very nice Ruger 44's ---did I really see those .480's?) commanded a lot of attention, but the people manning the long counter seemed a little drained (within the first couple of hours of the GunShow?? Setup must have been a nightmare.)

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowmagnificent.jpg
Magnificent World got a quieter, central-aisle booth location this time, and reaped the dividends with female consumers. Their display counters were a little too low, though... Nice friendly staff, compensting for the sour air in the PPSA (Philippine Practical Shooting) booth nearby. Good selection of Israeli firearms (IMI, Jericho).

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowtrusttrade.jpg
I think this was the Trust Trade (or was it True Weight?) booth. I was probably suffering from sensory overload at this point :)
Glock, Beretta, Colt, Taurus, and pretty much everything else.

I liked the Weapons Systems Corp booth, nice pistol selection,

Advanced Weapons Systems was badly mobbed because of their various Bushmaster M4's and their mainstay, folding-stock MP-5's. Too crowded for photos. Hahn had a very nice display of Colt's NRM's, Norinco's, though (like Armscor) they needed to spread the pistols out to prevent crowding.

P.B.Dionisio showed off its broad selection of scatterguns, rifles, and a few SMG's. It was unfortunately right next to AWS's M4a1-nutty crowd. Too hectic to get a pic: I was getting jostled left and right. But if you like shotties and rifles... wooohaaaa!

There were more outlets carrying Bersa and Llama pistols than last year --they must be selling well enough. There were fewer outlets offering GI Norincos, though the two-toned versions (NP27) were fairly well-represented. I didn't see the much-maligned Art Lantin's this year --maybe I just missed it. I was hoping CLIP Merchandising would offer a bigger gunshow discount on its magazines, but...

The tiny Secure Arms booth featured a .380 autopistol bonanza:
Browning BDA's, Sig P232's, Bersa Thunder 380's, Llama Micromax 380's
and an interesting Daewoo 380, along with the usual .45's and wondr9's.

I was missing the Walthers, HS2000's, CZ Skorpions, Steyr's, NAA's and Kahr's of last year --maybe I missed them in the controlled confusion.

Normally I wait til the last day of the show --les crowded, with generally better-educated (firearms-wise) shoppers. First couple of days there are always one or two clowns pointing deliberately at you and pulling triggers. I don't care if the display models are empty --I can be a good Christian about it, but I don't like it, and make it known. If anyone had pointed at my wife, they would have gotten more than an earful.

Loads of LEO's in attendance, more than happy to relate that their service nines had largely been replaced or seconded with 1911's, funded at the station level.

Notable standouts I ran into?
The Armscor GI (5", park) is selling for only P10,800 ($192), w/ 2 mags
There was a Colt Pony selling for P40,000 ($716)!!! Eeek.
Norinco NP-27 Special Two Tone Compact P22,000 ($392)
As always, the full auto CZ-75 was nice.
Ditto the many small (and i mean SMALL) SMG's
The Armcor AK-22 was interestingly light for its size.

There was some interesting Buffalo prefragged JHP that might be worth looking into (P150.00 up per round --nearly $2.70!!-- depending on caliber). Never heard of that brand before.

The GunShow runs til Monday, and is usually held twice a year.



FWIW,
:)


horge

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dadman
July 8, 2004, 09:03 PM
Is this a manufactuer/trade show, or a show where one can buy assorted firearms and goodies?
At this show do they sell beef and buffalo jerky, American Indian 'Art', and Beanie Babies?
Looks like a great show.

horge
July 8, 2004, 09:15 PM
Hi Dad,

No mere trade show --this is a fire sale.
I mean... a firearms sale :D
A very large quantity of guns, ammo and acessories are sold at these gunshows



No, no beef jerky or beanie babies. :)
Lots of shooting-related clothing apparel (cargo pants, vests)
Firearms literature, Home security devices.
There's always a BB shooting gallery on-site. Bullseye earns you a raffle ticket, with airguns as prizes. I got my freak .177 bullseye at 20 meters/yards last year, and didn't win the raffle but got a neutered .45 ACP cartridge keychain as a consolation prize. :(

Daily, there are several free seminars on responsible firearms ownership, SD tactics, including using firearms in combo with traditional martial arts (aikido, eskrima, etc). etcetera There's sometimes one anti-gun speaker invited to hold his own seminar, and it's all good natured, respectful debate then.

The food concessions at one end are a delight.
This is in one of th largest airconsitioned malls in East Asia.
Most of the families either went in together, or the mom went shopping and the kids went off to catch Spiderman 2 two floors below while daddy drooled over the hardware.

:D


horge

boofus
July 8, 2004, 09:42 PM
Wow, you can buy MP5s and full auto CZ75s there? Maybe I should start thinking about moving. :p

yesterdaysyouth
July 8, 2004, 09:42 PM
but where's da' switch??

:D

DMK
July 8, 2004, 09:53 PM
Wow, your shows are much more asthetically pleasing than ours! It's well lit, there are big colorful banners, clean and tasteful displays, the people in the booths there look like they wear matching company oriented shirts and even look friendly.

The shows here are usually held in a dark, dirty, musty basement of a convention hall. They lay everything out on cheap fold-up tables and most of the vendors are kinda grouchy.

Frohickey
July 8, 2004, 10:19 PM
What are gun laws in the Philippines like? Was there a lot of change between Marcos/martial law and now?

dadman
July 8, 2004, 10:20 PM
horge,
What are the laws over there concerning firearms ownership and ammunition storage for citizens?

Pitiful that we don't have shows like that in the USofA
:banghead:

horge
July 8, 2004, 10:38 PM
Hi.
Thanks for the compliments :)

Firearms laws in the Philippines?

No civilian restriction vs. full auto.
No civilian restriction on magazine capacity.
No limit to number of firearms.
Home storage of 300-500 rounds per gun,
though the FED/Police don't really care about the home-ammo quantity,
I guess if you need ammo for practice, you can buy it at the range

...unlike the Marcos (may he rot in hell) years, which limited us to one handgun (up to .38 Spl only) and one single rifle (.22LR only), and 50 rounds per firearm ---for your lifetime.

At the ASW booth mentioned above, (Bushmaster and H&K MP5 ground zero) one of the attractions was the FN Minimi (M249 SAW). At least one of those was sold that day, IIRC.

Gun club membership is de facto required, though the law doesn't really say so. This is particularly true for high powered rifles. Anyway, who doesn't want gun club membership? There are five indoor ranges within ten-fifteen minutes' ride/drive from my residence alone. Those are ranges in the heart of the capital's downtown. Lots more in the sticks :)


The downsides to firearms ownership in this country are
-massive taxes on imported guns
-ridiculous ammo prices
-a gun-purchase waiting period of 14 to 45 days.

In some unfortunate cases, people have waited nearly a year(!!!) to get their guns --but this is because they bought sight unseen: a few unscrupulous retailers will claim they have an item in stock, take your money, and only THEN order it from overseas. Experienced gun buyers avoid these places and advise newbs whenever they can.

We don't have a 2nd Amendment: Firearms ownership is a privilege and not a right.
I think it has worked out fine for us, because quite a few of us don't view firearms ownership as a 'right' or even a personal 'privilege', but as a social, moral and familial duty to be well-prepared.

One other possible difference with the US: the secondhand guns market is pretty low-key--that's what's missing at our gunshows, and I'm frankly glad for it.

I've never been to a US gunshow.
If any of you have pics, even old ones --I'd sure be interested :)



horge

BowStreetRunner
July 8, 2004, 10:45 PM
definitely different looking than our avg. gunshow
BSR

4v50 Gary
July 8, 2004, 11:25 PM
Why thank you for your report of a gun show from the Phillippines! It's wonderful to see what happens in far away foreign lands.

Don Gwinn
July 8, 2004, 11:33 PM
Yeah, the best way I can express it is that I assumed that was a large trade show. That's what the displays looked like to me. Gun shows here in Illinois are usually in nice buildings, but most people are using glorified card tables with a few small cases on them. It never looked shabby to me before now. . . . .

Stickjockey
July 8, 2004, 11:33 PM
I think it has worked out fine for us, because quite a few of us don't view firearms ownership as a 'right' or even a personal 'privilege', but as a social, moral and familial duty to be well-prepared.

Oh, if only more Americans felt this way.

JimJD
July 9, 2004, 12:20 AM
The Twin Pines booth was less centrally-located than last year's. Their home-brand Rock Island Armory (RIA) 1911's

I'm confused.
The R.I.A.'s are made by Twin Pines, or are they made by Armscorp?
Or are they made by another company entirely?

Those are some interesting pics Horge.
Looks like a fun show to go to! :D

P95Carry
July 9, 2004, 12:30 AM
Horge - many thx for an interesting glimpse into gun shows elsewhere ..... seems more like an ''Exhibition'' .... the way stands are set up. Way smarter than our grubby ol' ''tables''!!:p

Great to see another side of it all. :)

horge
July 9, 2004, 12:43 AM
Hi JimJD :)

Twin Pines Inc. owns the Rock Island Armory (RIA) brandname.
They however contract the manufacture and fitting out to Armscor.
(Twin Pines used to go with Industria Material Bellico do Brasil, but were unhappy and switched to Armscor
--not really IMBEL's fault) Early RIA's were thus kinda spotty before they went with Armscor. It was a miscomm of spec and contract language, and not IMBEL's lack of ability at fault, but people were burned and pride was hurt. To further muddle the Twin Pines-Armscor confusion --Twin Pines last year awarded he US marketing contract to Armscor (after getting snowed by Sarco) --so now Armscor makes 'em here and assembles/markets the pistols over there, via API in Pahrump NV.

Other gun 'manufacturers' out there also subcontract whole pistols:

Springfield goes to HS Produkt D.O.O. ( formerly IM Metal) of Croatia for its XD series of autopistols, although HS Produkt continues to sell the original HS2000.

Charles Daly, like Twin Pines, subcontracts to Armscor for 1911-style pstols, although Armscor sells the same things under the original Armscor brand. However, because Twin Pines/RIA is fairly new, all their products are recently made, better-quality output from Armscor. There is an unfortunate quantity of old-stock, lower quality material out there bearing the CD and Armscor brand, staining the brand reputations. This old stock is frantically being pulled out, but the 2nd hand market is what it is.

SGS Importers Interntional owns the Firestorm brand, but imports what are whole pistols from both Bersa SA and Fabrinor Arma y Corta Microfusion, of Argentina and Spain respectively.

NAA partially subcontracts its Guardians out to Kahr and Taurus...



It gets even stranger in the world of ammunition, lemme tell ya :D

:)

----------

Hi Chris! :)

JimJD
July 9, 2004, 12:52 AM
Wow, thanks for all the info. :D

I'm currently looking at another Handgun purchase, and among the models, I am looking at a R.I.A. M1911 (standard G.I. type).
Probably going to go to a local range this weekend to rent one and see how I like it.

proletariat
July 9, 2004, 01:51 AM
Horge,
Hey thanks for the shots of the PI gun show. I was there last year on a surf trip in Ilocos-sur and I didn't even know they had gun show's in the PI. I saw one range the whole time I was there and that was off the marcos highway somewhere near or on the way to baguio. I didn't stop by to see it though just drove on by.

horge
July 9, 2004, 08:48 AM
Thanks for all the kind comments :)


Gunshow Exotica:

Here's a photo taken today by a fellow pistolero (goes by the handle 'paltic' over at GlockTalk) from the gunshow. It caught my attention too, but when I was there, it was just too crowded to take a pic:




Ever feel the need to 'Glock out' your AR? :D
Leave it to the Israelis (TDI) to make something for ya:

http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/socom001.jpg
The way the girl is holding it partly obscures the black, curving pistol mount.
It anchors onto the pistol grip's heel, just avoiding the extra extra hi-cap mag. Heee hee.

dadman
July 9, 2004, 09:07 AM
No pictures of local gunshows. Cameras and media not allowed inside.
Haven't been to a Jerky Show for awhile anyways.

horge
July 10, 2004, 05:40 AM
Last:

P.B. Dionisio showcased its CZ 75 Select, Full auto:
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/cz75auto.jpg

Stand_Watie
July 10, 2004, 05:56 AM
Horge, it looks to me like the vendors at your gunshows are setting up in a much more elaborate fashion than the ones I'm used to seeing here in Texas. Do the shows only run for a weekend, like here, or longer (or shorter)?

I wonder if your vendors have a greater financial gain (proportionately speaking) than a Texas vendor? As a comparitive figure, admission to the gun show I usually go to is (I think) 5 or 6 bucks, and renting a table (8 foot) 60.00.

http://www.classicshows.com/bigtown.htm

http://classicshows.com/images/rdmiller.jpg

http://classicshows.com/images/longguns.jpg

horge
July 10, 2004, 06:26 AM
Thanks so much for those photos!

Woohoo, guys in cowboy hats!
I spent a week in Houston two years ago and didn't see a single one :(

The price of floor space is pretty stiff here, considering this is a massively popular mall. This I think weeds out the small fry. There is no 2nd-hand firearms market to speak of, and so what's left are the big-fish sellers who then go all-out for the customer's hard-earned peso.

Our laws also make it very hard to get what you call an FFL. So again, the sellers at our gun shows tend to be established vendors, often with at least one real brick-and-mortar store in the country. The gun show is good for sales, and especially good for advertising.

If I had to guess, the smallest stall here costs about the price of a Bersa Thunder 380 for two days' rent... maybe. Gun shows run three to five days (the one I showcased runs 5). The sales generated at a show seem to be enough to offset the investment, and really, it's just as crucial to build contacts and consumer trust, so they seek you out even after the show.

Not even a third of the gun stores I know of in Manila get to appear at these gun shows --I hear competition for floor space can be fierce.
VLP Firearms, owned/operated by Vicky Linatoc Pena,
They have a large store in Quezon City, and this small booth is all they could manage.
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/gunshowvlp.jpg
HOWEVER... in the five minutes it took waiting to take this shot, this stall entertained maybe twelve customers, maybe five of whom were seriously considering the wares. When I revisited the stall before leaving the show, one Llama Max and one Norinco were no longer in that display case, so maybe sales are healthy enough.

Because gun shows are held somewhat infrequently --there are at best maybe three such every year, even in the biggest metropolis of my country, firearms enthusiasts do come from far and wide to check it out, armed with credit cards or cash.

We even get fly-ins from other Asian countries. Foreigners can't buy/own guns here, but some of those tourists'll actually ask a friendly Filipino to buy a gun for them (ostensibly registered in the Filipino's name) and babysit it, and then they'll fly in every few months or so to shoot the heck out of the piece at some of the local ranges. Japanese, Taiwanese, Malaysians, etc.... they all come from countries with laws that are unbelievably hostile to fireams ownership. IIRC, a Malaysian 12-year old kid was once executed for mere possession of three .22LR cartridges. This was several years ago, so I may have the details off.

So...
It's tricky comparing our gun shows to yours, in terms of context.
The vendors may be different in nature, because our laws and mindset are different.
The consumers may be different in mindset as well.
The stakes might be higher for vendors in our shows, so the vendors get all the lead out...
for the honor of assisting consumers in getting their lead out.



:)
horge

Stand_Watie
July 10, 2004, 06:49 AM
That's very interesting about your getting gunny tourism from Japan etc. Do you think that had anything at all to do with your firearm restrictions easing, or was that all Marcos?

Is defending your home with a firearm a practicality in the Phillippines or do they have severe gun storage laws?

horge
July 10, 2004, 07:05 AM
Hi Stand_Watie:)

1. Yes, gun-tourism is very real, though not as big as might be imagined.
However, at a semi-open range I enjoy (P.B. Dionisio), some days can be tough, when two busloads of tourists come in, loaded to the gills with newly-bought gear they can't ever bring home, and an understandable newbish-cluelessness about firearms handling. It's tough on the RO's, because even with perfect English comprehension (as written), thick accents get in the way of proper instruction. IIRC, this 'gun-tourism' really took off after Marcos was out and gun restrictions were eased a little.

2. Armed home-invasions do happen here, and it's tricky balancing
- a Christian willingness to surrender to God's will
- the fate-determination of arming one's self

It is a very, very private decision to make. I've had my share of encounters.
One of them is actually in the S&T forum here.

But, forgive my incomprehension :)
I'm not sure I understand the part about gun-storage laws.
I'll hehe, try to wing an answer anyway:
Armed home-defense (home storage?) is not too-severely hindered by our laws.
It is, rather, public carry that is subject to tight control.



horge

Hal
July 10, 2004, 07:38 AM
horge,
How in the heck can you have a decent gun show without a bunch of middle age fat guys?

Everyone in the pictures is skinny!

:D

opps, oh yeah,,double points for fat guys in camo.

fallingblock
July 10, 2004, 07:50 AM
That sure beats anything I've seen at gun shows here in Australia!

Keep your guard up, the global anti-gunners are currently roaming the Pacific looking for sympathetic governments to implement tighter gun controls.

Papua-New Guinea recently put some fairly draconian proposals into motion, and Philip Alpers wants more grant money.:scrutiny:

hksw
July 10, 2004, 10:02 AM
How in the heck can you have a decent gun show without a bunch of middle age fat guys?

What about the jerky and the T-shirts?



The shows in the Philippines, at least the ones horge depicts, seem to be more closer to trade shows like SHOT (but open to the public) than a regular weekend gun shows here. As seen from Stand_Watie's photos, that's pretty much the way it is here in the US. There may be a handful of dealers that have guns in elaberate displays under glass but the majority (at least from all of the ones I've been to) are just guns laid out on a table top. Even less seen are manufacturers at regular gun shows.

Stand_Watie
July 10, 2004, 10:07 AM
Yes, I think you answered my question. What I was questioning was

a) If you were required to unload and lock your weapons in a safe when you weren't actively using them

and

b) If shooting a home invader presented a great enough risk of being prosecuted (and severe enough penalties) to make you prefer to take your chances with the home invader.

I think if you're touristry department is smart they'll try to nurture the trade. I'll bet a good marketing campaign (Perhaps showing Japanese gentlemen smoking pipes and wearing tweed jackets whilst shooting clays with double-shotguns?) would pay for itself many times over.

Ashendale
July 10, 2004, 10:38 AM
"We don't have a 2nd Amendment: Firearms ownership is a privilege and not a right.
I think it has worked out fine for us, because quite a few of us don't view firearms ownership as a 'right' or even a personal 'privilege', but as a social, moral and familial duty to be well-prepared."

Horge,
I was in the Philippines not too long ago. The only citizens with firearms seemed to be the criminals and the wealthy. As for being well-prepared, I agree. You need to be prepared to protect yourself from practically everyone including the common ruck citizen thug, the politicians (organized crime), the law enforcement (mostly corrupt), heck everyone, unless you're wealthy and/or part of the above or the military. Life is cheap. The wanton wealthy are above the law. Sorry about sounding kinda bitter, but I had a couple of near terminal experiences with privileged firearm owners.
Next time I'm over there, I'm going to take up an offer by a Senator's son to "get me one" (a handgun).

Ian

horge
July 10, 2004, 10:59 AM
Stand_Watie,
Hi :)
No silly laws on unloading, or setting safety within the home.
One can't legislate private, common sense gun safety, anyways. As I intimated, it's public carry that's more closely regulated, like Condition Three only, et cetera.

Former World Steel Challenge champion Jethro Dionisio did indeed hook up with the Department of Tourism --he runs a very classy clays range and resort north of Manila. Some Princes of Brunei, Japanese industrialists, and that crowd are his clientele. The pistol ranges elsewhere handle the less gilded crowd

Hal,
Anyone non-military showing up in camo would get laughed at all the way to the show exit. And hey... I see lots of fat people in the photos I posted! What? You mean that's not fat yet? Does that make me a toothpick??
Someone call Skunky fast-- I need backup here.
:D


Ian
I'm sorry for your unfortunate experiences while here :(
I'd suspect that there are arrogant, armed people everywhere. Most of the firearms-owners I know are quiet family men. Precisely the sort who want to stay low-profile. The rest are active IPSC/IDPA competitors or law enforcers.

A lot of cops here are crooked, but things are getting better each year.
More than a firearm, you need a better roadmap: Not all the 'rough parts of town' can be defined geographically. There is a social and societal minefield out there that Filipinos automatically recognize and navigate ---but often fails to make complete sense to an outsider.

horge

Justin
July 10, 2004, 03:55 PM
Horge-

Thank you for sharing your photos and experiences with us. Very cool. HKSW is right, the photos you posted much more resemble the SHOT Show than any of the run-of-the-mill gunshows here in the US.

A couple of questions for you:

1)Is gun registration mandated by law in the Philippines?

2)Would they let you shoot a full-auto pistol in IDPA competition? :D

Demon440
July 10, 2004, 04:45 PM
thank you for posting that. Very cool.

horge
July 10, 2004, 07:28 PM
Justin,
Hi!
Gun registration is mandatory.
The problem of loose (unregistered) firearms has been with us since WW2 battlefields were littered with abandoned, usable firearms. Local skill in backyard gunsmithing also means there are a lot of 'paltik' or homemade firearms churned out every year --some of which are quite good, and few of which are ever registered.

Full auto pistol in IDPA, eh? Hee hee.
Actually, it's a little silly here. For sompetitions, we copy US standards ---adopting the 10-round mag cap, even though we have never had a Clinton(ian) 10 round limit. This --I guess-- is to help train competitiors here in prep for competition over yonder in your neck of the woods (with all of your quaint gun laws, hehe). There have been quite a few Filipinos who've made their mark in the shooting sports over in the US.

....so, no, the CZ Select (and other full auto pistols) ought to be --but AREN'T legit here for competition.

I'd love it if in the rifle competitions, they allowed M4 owners to use the ubiquitous add-on grenade launcher --Bushy here does sell them already included!.
:D

NIGHTWATCH
July 10, 2004, 08:52 PM
My girlfriend is a filipina. She is also an anti.... she is going to hate this thread when I send it to her.
MOOHOOHAHAHAAA! :evil:

horge
July 10, 2004, 09:22 PM
A Filipina?
Go ahead and tease her, but...
brother, will she ever make you pay for it

:neener: :neener: :neener:

one45auto
July 11, 2004, 01:15 AM
horge is right, NIGHTWATCH. My ex-wife is from the Philippines, so believe me you're going to get an earful if you're not careful. They're well-known for having short tempers.

HABU
July 11, 2004, 01:32 AM
I was in the PI when Marcos enacted martial law. Occasionally we would see people (round eyes) in formal wear out cutting grass in the morning because they got caught out after curfew. I remember my dad having a 1911. I later learned that it ended up in the bay.

Horge, do yo have broken bottles on the wall around your place?:)

horge
July 11, 2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by HABU
Horge, do you have broken bottles on the wall around your place? :)

LOL
:D :D :D
Ah... memories...
I think the shift to barbed/razor wire started in the late 80's.
The older houses still have those glass shards/ broken bottles anchored in mortar atop their perimieter fences. Atop and slightly behind mine, there's razor, in loose coils.

I went back to the Gunshow and put down money on an Armscor GI 1911 Fullsize
(5" barrel, parkarized finish). At only P10,800.oo (US$198.oo) with two mags, it was just too good to pass up.

There was an even hotter bargain, a blued 1911 Fullsize, with no-snag sights, combat hammer and skeletonized trigger, selling for only P9,999.oo (US$178.oo), see below, with all the fondling fingerprints...
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/9999.JPG
...but I wanted to go with something closer to 'old skool'.



:)

71Commander
July 11, 2004, 09:57 AM
Excellent thread Horge.

Congrats on the 1911 purchase. You'll have to visit these sites that are dedicated to the old slabside.

An established sith that is a wealth of information:
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/index.php?s=

A new site:
http://www.1911og.org/forum/vbindex.php

Can we expect a 1911 resource page in the near future that rivals the Bersa page?

Again, congrats.:D

13A
July 11, 2004, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the pictures jorge. Here are some from the Tulsa Oklahoma gunshow. I hope to go there this fall.

http://www.tulsaarmsshow.com/frames.html

horge
July 11, 2004, 06:50 PM
TennTucker,

Thanks for the kind words!
Thanks for the links!

Right now, I need to read a 1911 resource page,
and really have no business writing one, heee heee...
;)

----------


Thanks for the link 13A.
3,800 tables!!!
:what: :what: :what:

Our gunshows only have 30-60 vendors, tops!
Even assuming the equivalent of 10 "tables" per vendor at most.
We're still small potatoes!

CZ 75 BD
July 11, 2004, 07:27 PM
for the pics and report. I enjoy learning about other cultures.

9MX
August 9, 2004, 07:25 AM
Horge,

Great posting as usual. Hope you do the same thing when Gunshow Part II rolls out in October or November. I'm thinking of an Armscor 1911 hi-cap:evil:

rick_reno
August 9, 2004, 10:45 AM
Thanks for sharing those pictures and description. I used to fly to Manilla frequently for business (semi-conductors), the company I worked for had numerous test and assembly facilities there. Great people - my only complaint when I was there was I'm pretty sure I was the only one with out a gun.

3006mv
December 22, 2005, 12:20 AM
That was awesome, thanks for sharing. Explain the forest products rule and why we can't get those nice wood grips from the PI here in the U.S. thanks again.

carebear
December 22, 2005, 01:20 AM
booth babes? :evil:

MAUSER88
December 22, 2005, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the pics. It's nice to see what goes on in your part of the world.

mbs357
December 22, 2005, 05:27 PM
Last:

P.B. Dionisio showcased its CZ 75 Select, Full auto:
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/cz75auto.jpg
*DROOL*

IndianaDean
December 22, 2005, 06:02 PM
Wonderful report, Horge. I'd love to come to the Phillipines to visit and of course attend one of those shows. Like someone else said, your shows are so much better presented than shows in the U.S.

Erik Jensen
December 22, 2005, 08:24 PM
wow! this thread is back from the dead! :what:

CAPTAIN MIKE
December 24, 2005, 08:09 PM
Hey - wait just a doggone minute. I didn't see any Doll, Jewelry or any Tupperware Tables !! What the heck kinda Gun Show is that ?

SamlautRanger
December 24, 2005, 08:48 PM
OK I AM MOVING TO THE PI !!! CAN OWN GUNS, WARM WEATHER, AND NO FAT CHICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob R
December 24, 2005, 09:31 PM
NO FAT CHICKS

Yea, right. Don't bet the farm on that one!! :eek: :what: :D

Firethorn
December 24, 2005, 10:23 PM
OK I AM MOVING TO THE PI !!! CAN OWN GUNS, WARM WEATHER, AND NO FAT CHICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1000

USA, I love ya, but I gotta go..

Affordable FA action here I come!

The_Antibubba
December 25, 2005, 12:45 AM
Where are all the fat guys?

You know, given what Fillipinos had to endure during WWII, I don't think the guy with the Waffen insignia and the reproduction Rising Sun flag would feel very comfortable behind his table. :what: :evil:

SIOP
December 25, 2005, 01:06 AM
Horge - Any truth to the rumors I've heard about warehouses full of Garands and Thompsons over there?

Nice pics, by the way.

loose cannon
December 25, 2005, 01:25 AM
in some way the philipines sounds like heaven but in others hell.

the limitations on ammo come to mind. my idea of hell would be a gun with"da switch"and only a couple 100 rds of ammo in my cabinet.i gotta have lots of ammo.(last delivery;1000rounds of +p 38spl lswchp's)

rights are a bit harder to take away than privledges but i must say your gunshows are superior to ours.

i was admireing a close relative of that tricked 1911 you priced at $178,
on a table at the recent gunshow in springfield missouri it cost $350.

horge
December 25, 2005, 05:21 AM
Holy moley... this thread is back from the dead!
:D :D :D


Merry Christmas everyone!


didn't see any Doll, Jewelry or any Tupperware Tables !! What the heck kinda Gun Show is that ?We have our choice of everything from hot dim sum to grilled babyback ribs
at the food concessions towards one end of these shows... does that count?
:)

]NO FAT CHICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yea, right. Don't bet the farm on that one!!
Hard to genealize really, there are brown, white and black Filipinas,
each with varying genetic tendencies with regard to build,
but I really doubt the very-representative average is anything other than slim/petite.

Horge - Any truth to the rumors I've heard about warehouses full of Garands and Thompsons over there?
Not as many as rumor would have it, but a surprising amount nonetheless.
Chief problem here is the humidity ---bad for stocks and for steel,
with theft a close second.

Garands, quite a few. Not sure of their condition.
Many of the Thompsons in AFP storage are in pretty bad shape, many having
been repeatedly cannibalized to support a small number that were service-issued
in the 1950's-1970's. Ditto M14's --those old warhorses are still in service.

The M3's are in pretty decent condition, and batches have been refurbished
recently for re-issue to some of our cash-strapped Armed Forces. I posted about this awhiles back (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=95093)


rights are a bit harder to take away than privleges but i must say your gunshows are superior to ours.

I sure wish we had a '2nd Amendment' of sorts, though it seems gun-restrictions have
relaxed exponentially here over the past 30 years.

I view with equal parts sadness and alarm the way your 2A is being incrementally debased.




-horge

P95Carry
December 25, 2005, 12:24 PM
Horge - Happy Xmas back at you my friend :)

loose cannon
December 25, 2005, 12:25 PM
thanks for the link to the m3 thread very enjoyable reading.i rented and shot a m3a1 in arizona on a layover in 1992 .it was a awesome treat as my father carryed one when he drove a halftrack ammo carrier in korea in the early 50's.

as for our second amendment; other than the spanking we had to give the antigun crats in new orleans were not doing too badly. my state (and i)celebrate our second year of concealed carry in 2months and we may abolish the permit to aquire handguns law soon as well.this nation is down to 4 states where ccw is totaly illegal and i expect it to drop to 1 over the next 2-5 years.

i am concerned for the future though, i feel the antigun oposition party will soon control our legislature and possibly the white house, bringing back the crap we had in the 90s and maybe worse. hope im wrong.

Spreadfire Arms
December 26, 2005, 02:31 AM
http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/socom001.jpg

neat contraption for a Glock, i think if you had it in the U.S. that Glock would have to be registered as an AOW?

i think if it was a registered post-sample Glock 18 it would trump the AOW status......interesting. why would you want a pistol mounted to the front of your long gun though?

spaceCADETzoom
December 26, 2005, 03:57 AM
ok, i've been reading this thread and have found most of the Americans in awe. And Horge painting a really rosy picture of things over there. I'm not completely doubting any of what he says, but i do want to reiterate the fact that private gun ownership IS severely regulated in the phillippines, and not nearly as free as it is here.

Under Philippine law, most citizens may own only two firearms: one shotgun or .22 caliber rifle, and one handgun. Getting a license for each gun requires proof of employment, approval from police officials, mayors and courts, passing drug and psychiatric tests, and paying fees. Buying a firearm involves more approvals and fees. Owners need the carry permit if they want to transport a gun outside the home.

I cut and pasted that pragraph from elsewhere, and it confirms what i have heard from realtives and family friends (i am a third generation American of Filipino lineage). Thier federal govenment put that database of registered guns to use when it institued a gun ban in 2003.

As far as ther gun shows looking like trade shows with flashy signs, et al. This goes part and parcel with the fact we Americans have a cultivated civil rights background with private gun ownership. As horge noted, to them it's a privellege, not a right. And like many other countries (i.e. the UK), gun ownership (legal gun ownership) is a rich man's hobby. We have beef jerky and beanie babies at our gun shows because its the stuff of middle America. Thier gun shows look like trade shows not unlike European gun shows. It caters less to regular joes and more to law enforcement/military, etc. It looks like a trade show because they largely are. There is a cultural difference here...

I have no prblem wiht the PI. It's a fine, beautiful, lovely country. I have a direct tie to it in my family's history. But I don't think we should be dillusional about liberal ideals (like the right to property and self-defense and general American self-reliance) being better in other countries with severe histories of authoritative regimes and corruption...

That sounds like I"m bashing the PI. I don't mean to. I love the Philippines. I merely don't want any of us to envy something like policy on gun ownership when we shouldn't be...

sturmruger
December 26, 2005, 03:59 PM
Horge I always apreciate reading your posts. It is great to get some insight about other countries and what their gun laws are like.

Do you shoot competitively?? (IDPA, or IPSC)

horge
December 27, 2005, 03:40 AM
Under Philippine law, most citizens may own only two firearms: one shotgun or .22 caliber rifle, and one handgun.Hi spaceCADETzoom :)
You are citing a US-colonial and Marcos-era restriction, which is demonstrably obsolete.
Those restrictions (first codified in 1917) you cited were initially relaxed in the
late 1980's, leading up to Executive Order 194, issued 24 February 2000,
which reads in part:


----------
"...NOW THEREFORE I, JOSEPH EJERCITO ESTRADA, President of the Republic of the Philippines,
by virtue of the powers vested in me by law,do hereby order:

Section 1. General Orders 7, 7-A, 7-B and 7-C which authorize certain individuals to
possess and carry firearms, limit the number of firearms to be possessed,
and regulate the operation of gun clubs, are hereby repealed.

Section 2. Henceforth, all citizens of the Philippines may possess firearms of any type and/or caliber,
Provided that such firearms are not classified as crew-served weapons (CSWs),
light anti-tank weapons (LAWs), light machine guns (LMGs), anti-tank and anti-personnel
recoilless rifles, bazookas, etc.; Provided further that such firearms are
test-fired for ballistics, stenciled and properly licensed... (snip)"
----------

...so I could buy an MP5 --if I had the cash and the desire (no, on both counts)
A good revolver can be had for less than PhP 4,000 (US$70), all-in, if one knows
how to shop. At the other end of the spectrum, an M4 or M16 costs well over
PhP 120,000 (US$2000+), not including paperwork.

Getting a license for each gun requires proof of employment, approval from police officials, mayors and courts, passing drug and psychiatric tests, and paying fees. Buying a firearm involves more approvals and fees. Owners need the carry permit if they want to transport a gun outside the home.
The 'licensing' and 'purchasing'(???) requiements are not separate.
When you buy, you (by default) apply for a license.
This is why it's smart to buy at the gun show --it's usually a one-stop shop
for the license requirements, which nomally would eat up two afternoons worth
of lining up at various offices, and approximately US$ 70-90 in fees.
Concealed carry requires a CCW permit. *shrug*.

As horge noted, to them it's a privellege, not a right. And like many other countries (i.e. the UK), gun ownership (legal gun ownership) is a rich man's hobby. Errr... I make less for a month's work what a minimum wage American
makes in 4 days, yet I have several firearms. Most fellow gun owners I know are
ordinary salarymen making as little, or even less. Owning 2-3 handguns,
a rifle and a shotgun is not unusual for owners, though a lot of Filipinos don't own at all.
IIRC, 2002 PNP (Philippine National Police) statistics suggested (crudely)
1 out of every 27 Filipinos owned at least one firearm. I'll try to find the data,
and correct this if necessary.

We're regular Joes making a fraction of US minimum wage.
It is the 'gamers' (IPSC, IDPA, etc.) who have to be wealthy,
what with all the ammo, gear, and travel involved.

One last thing: It is a 'privilege' in the eyes of the law.
In our eyes, it's a social-familial and moral DUTY to be prepared :)


Thier gun shows look like trade shows not unlike European gun shows. It caters less to regular joes and more to law enforcement/military, etc. It looks like a trade show because they largely are.
(emphasis mine)
SpaceCZ, the photos are quite representative of the gun-show crowd.
The vast majority of the buying customers are regular 'Joes'.
Military and LEO's mostly hover around the ballistic vest and LMG displays.
I'm not sure what the definition of a 'trade show' is these days,
but the gun shows I've described are more like 'flea markets' with respect to
the commerce and clientele involved. Lots of haggling going on
;)

Do you shoot competitively?? (IDPA, or IPSC)
Hi sturmruger !
I'm afraid not. I simply can't afford the time and money involved.
Work or die, man!
:p

why would you want a pistol mounted to the front of your long gun though?Hi! I was wondering the same thing.
As the salesgirl explained it --in case you get jumped while reloading the rifle,
you can fall back on 'Perfection'.
:p

***
Next big Gun Show in town is scheduled for this coming mid-January.
It should be a lot of fun, though I'm told they won't allow picture-taking
anymore.


yebaaaaa!!!!
horge

SamlautRanger
December 27, 2005, 10:41 AM
Great info Horge!! Thanks.

I loved the PI. Spent one of the happiest months of my life on Mindoro, SCUBA diving.

How is the regulation for non-PI citizens to purchase firearms. If, me as an American, wanted to move to the PI and live there would it be possible for me to purchase several firearms for defense and sport?

Do you know if there is anywhere in the PI that has legalized hunting? Wild Pig? Thanks.

VirgilCaine
December 27, 2005, 10:50 AM
Hi! I was wondering the same thing.
As the salesgirl explained it --in case you get jumped while reloading the rifle,
you can fall back on 'Perfection'.

Riiight. Larger mags are much cheaper...:scrutiny:

Or maybe they aren't?

horge
December 27, 2005, 07:27 PM
SamlautRanger,

Hi! I posted earlier (somewhere on this thead) that unfortunately,
only citizens of the Republic can own firearms .
:( :( :(


horge


PS: There was an obscure clause in our Firearm Laws that dwelt on
foreign diplomats owning firearms, citing reciprocity:
to wit, if the United States allows Filipino citizens to KBA in the US,
then the Philippines is honor-bound to allow American citizens the same
freedom here...

Unfortunately the law containing the clause was repealed by the
Executive Order I cited earlier (the one that allows me --though I've never
tested it-- to own several select fire rifles or subguns), and so the
issue of foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines is in limbo.

PPS: Don't know much about hunting. There is a hunting permit
involved, but with so many endangered species here (wild pigs included)... *shrug*

I hear there's no permit required for hunting Communist and pseudo-Muslim terrorists.
No limit either.
;)

cvb
December 27, 2005, 09:51 PM
Thanks Horge for clarifying some of the
gun ownership laws in the PI. They also
have a sizeable gun lobby group with a lot
of politics ie right wing compromise. The country
has had 2-3 coup attempts since the Marcos years.
A large gap in the low to upper class also indicates
need for arms as protection so it seems. There is
a lot of unregistered firearms on the country
and a reasonable fear of crime and violence.

hksw
December 27, 2005, 09:53 PM
horge,

How much are the CZ75 Selects going for over there? If ever I get back there, hopeflly my uncles or cousins will have a line to one for me to try out on a visit.

nathan
May 8, 2006, 11:59 PM
I was working in Quezon CIty from 1990 to 94. I went to one of this gunshows back in 1992 at Mega mall SM. Yeah it reminds me of so many things. It is more of a privilege not a right esp the rich and famous or let say powers in govt who can own. I remember drooling looking on those brandnew pistols hoping someday I could own one.

Anyway Im here in Houston now and own pistols and assault rifles that I cant hardly own in the Philippines.

History Prof
May 9, 2006, 02:53 AM
No civilian restriction vs. full auto.
No civilian restriction on magazine capacity.
No limit to number of firearms.
Home storage of 300-500 rounds per gun,
though the FED/Police don't really care about the home-ammo quantity,
I guess if you need ammo for practice, you can buy it at the range

We don't have a 2nd Amendment: Firearms ownership is a privilege and not a right.
I think it has worked out fine for us, because quite a few of us don't view firearms ownership as a 'right' or even a personal 'privilege', but as a social, moral and familial duty to be well-prepared.

Wow. They view it as a non-right, yet, in some ways, the PI is less restricted than the US is here with our 2A*rights*. However, viewing it as a privilege can be dangerous. If government grants the privilege, government can take it away (witness Horge's comments on Ferdinand Marcos).

nathan
May 9, 2006, 03:00 AM
As far I could remember you can buy an M16A1 military version in FA for 45 000 pesos . Its easy to acquire esp in MIndanao. Sometimes it could be cheaper as economy is so bad people wanna get rid of it and buy food for the table. If you have the dough , its possible. Even M14 with FA selector .

The_Future
May 9, 2006, 05:59 PM
Now on the ammo restrictions can you own multiple guns of the same caliber to get around it?

Buy some cheap .38Sp's and you've gotten around that.

horge
May 12, 2006, 10:20 AM
Good Lord, this thread is back!!! :eek: :D

Originally posted by hksw
How much are the CZ75 Selects going for over there? If ever I get back there, hopeflly my uncles or cousins will have a line to one for me to try out on a visit.
85K last I heard, but the distributor here (PBDionisio) has been out of stock
of all things CZ (except maybe the P01) for half a year now.
Sorry to be answering so late, Ron! :(

Originally posted by nathan
Anyway I'm here in Houston now and own pistols and assault rifles that I cant hardly own in the Philippines.
Congratulations! Texas is great!
I have a cousin out in Sugarland, but I don't think he's into guns.
Golf is his thing.

Originally posted by History Prof
viewing it as a privilege can be dangerous. If government grants the privilege, government can take it away
Your assessment is dead on the money.
What has me worried is that constitutionally enshrining it as a 'right'
doesn't seem to prevent incremental violation over time by gun-haters,
that is, if I'm perceiving the U.S. experience correctly.

Originally posted by The_Future
Now on the ammo restrictions can you own multiple guns of the same caliber to get around it?
Well, yes, that's right. But...
Nobody really pays attention to the spec-limits on home ammo-storage.


Cheers, everyone.
:)

Thin Black Line
May 12, 2006, 10:40 AM
Section 2. Henceforth, all citizens of the Philippines may possess firearms of any type and/or caliber,
Provided that such firearms are not classified as crew-served weapons (CSWs),
light anti-tank weapons (LAWs), light machine guns (LMGs), anti-tank and anti-personnel
recoilless rifles, bazookas, etc.; Provided further that such firearms are
test-fired for ballistics, stenciled and properly licensed... (snip)"

"Henceforth, all citizens of the Unites States of America...."

Oh, sorry, I was imagining a time long past and dead in this country.
Excuse me while I check on today's progress of Americans re-linking their
chains. :banghead:

NineseveN
May 12, 2006, 10:50 AM
Sick, ain't it? :rolleyes:

f4t9r
May 12, 2006, 02:55 PM
looks like a cool show , thanks for the pics

horge
May 12, 2006, 09:00 PM
Excuse me while I check on today's progress of Americans re-linking their chains. :banghead:

Hi TBL, :)
I do pray you Americans realize how good you still have it.

-We Filipinos don't have a Constitutionally-mentioned right to keep and bear.
On a WHIM, our President can suspend any of the 'privileges' we enjoy:
A couple of years ago, a road-rage shooting led to an astonishing nationwide
suspension/cancellation of carry permits, only somewhat recently restored.

-Relative to minimum wage, guns are much more affordable there in the U.S.
A $200 firearm over there can cost $350-$400 over here, before paperwork.

-Relative to minimum wage, ammo is so much more affordable there than here.
Even Filipino-made Armscor ammo costs nealry double here compared to there

-NIB firearms in the Philippines are mostly bought sight-unseen!
The units are ostensibly stored in a central government warehouse.
Given how relatively expensive some firearms are, that's a lot of blind trust,
often enough betrayed by merchandise that needs remedial work

-The waiting period on a new purchase here is supposedly 30-45 days max,
but as mentioned earlier, there have been many unlucky buyers in the past
who've had to wait over a year to see their purchases

-While it's true that automatics / select fire weapons are available here,
only a tiny fraction of the Filipino population can afford them.

-firearm manufacturer warranties are a joke here.

I do criticize the incremental violation of your right to keep and bear,
but that shouldn't suggest that I think we have it better than you.
Keep up the fight! If you guys cave, what'll happen to the rest of
the (shrinking) free world?

:)
h

fvf
May 30, 2006, 02:54 AM
I was informed by my local gun dealer that there is a scheduled gun show on July 13 - 17, 2006 at SM Megamall.

mr unique
November 22, 2006, 07:33 AM
I´m going on holiday to this beautiful country next month, staying from mid december to 8 januari.
Just wondering if Horge or someone else, are aware of any new gunshow in that time
Preferable in Manilla area?

nathan
November 22, 2006, 09:38 AM
There might not be one as its the holidays which are celebrated big time this time of the year. But I bet theres a lot of gunstore dealers in various parts of Metro Manila and surrounding cities who sells legit to public and the military. At least you get to see what they have in brands and whats sellable in that part of the world. From what i know 16 yrs ago, the taurus, colt, s w, feg, norincos, glocks, sigs are mostly the name of choice. SHotguns too are preferrred bec of the self defense capability . Names like Squire Bingham, norincos and mossberg are very strong. Filipinos also are fan of fancy gun accessories like laser add ons etc as influenced by the movies.
Stay safe. Dont let anyone know you got the dollar unless you cant hide it.

fvf
November 22, 2006, 07:22 PM
Mr. Unique

There is a Gun Show scheduled this Nov. 23 - 26. Venue is SM Megamall. For those living outside the Philippines, its located within Metro Manila.

mr unique
November 24, 2006, 08:41 PM
Thank you VERY much for that answer!
I will check it out.
And about the security issue i feel perfectly safe, going around Manilla with my PI- side of my family, who i`am also staying at during my hopefully great holiday.:)

10-Ring
November 24, 2006, 09:52 PM
Any excuse to get out of the humidity works for me...but a chance to play w/ guns!!! Nice show! ;)

Pun
March 7, 2007, 12:17 AM
Hey, I'm a new member and was wondering, my family owns a nice ammount of land outside cebu city and we're thinking of building a house down there. Since i come from another country getting dual citizenships could i buy semi-automatic weapons because in my country everything is illegal and would i be able to import from manilla? oh yea i want to be a collector.

nathan
March 7, 2007, 01:49 AM
Bisaya ka bai? Email e ko. Naa kas Tate karon?

fvf
March 7, 2007, 01:54 AM
I usually buy my registered firearms from legitimate firearms dealers. I do this to make sure everything is arranged and documented properly. I comes out a little expensive but saves you a lot of time and hassle.

The gun store I use is named Twin Pines, Inc. They have a store in Cebu so you shouldn't have any problems. I was told if you are a dual citizen they can help you process the firearms you plan to buy from them. Iimporting directly by yourself is a difficult process according to them.

Pun
March 7, 2007, 04:34 AM
Fvf, thanks for the help. And clearing some stuff up. Could anyone possibly tell me if silencers/suppressors + Accessories are legal in the Phillippines? or the M4 Carbine or the H&K G36K?

fvf
March 7, 2007, 04:58 AM
I believe that silencers and suppresors are not allowed to be licensed to civilians.

horge
March 7, 2007, 03:41 PM
Hi,
This thread does have a Phoenix-like character, dunn'it? :)


my family owns a nice ammount of land outside cebu city and we're thinking of building a house down there. Since i come from another country getting dual citizenships could i buy semi-automatic weapons because in my country everything is illegal and would i be able to import from manilla? oh yea i want to be a collector.

The Filipino half of your dual citizenship would entitle you to legally possess
up to 15 handguns and 6 rifles/shotguns (even more if the PNP-FED
Chief agrees). There are many gunstores and even gun manufacturers in
Cebu.

The law permits you to purchase select-fire firearms, but the government body
tasked with licensing/registration of firearms (PNP-FED) will do its utmost to
discourage you, especially after certain portions of the new Anti-Terrorism Act
were added.

That said, there occasionally used to be M4's going for as little as 120k
(pesos) --the cyclic rate reducers by FERFRANS really work. MP5's fetch
more, around 130k. Knockoff MAC-10's can be had from Danao (Cebu)
for as little as 35k, but beware --if the seller isn't a licensed gunstore, you want
to stay far, far away.

AFAIK there is no standing law on sound suppressors, as the basis for the
old one was repealed... but again, PNP-FED will harrass you no end if it puts
you and the words "sound suppressor" within the same time zone. I however
still see a number of DIY suppressors and GemTechs used at the firing ranges.
Nobody wants to openly discuss the legal vacuum, because discussion will only
spawn renewed legislative restrictions (too many lawmakers with nothing better
to do).

There are LOTS of gun stores in Cebu. Let them worry about importing from wherever.

hth.

CountGlockula
March 7, 2007, 06:32 PM
Ah,...beautiful motherland.

wateman
March 7, 2007, 08:33 PM
Hi horge,
Thanks for the info you posted, very helpful.

Anyway I was just curious, Do the laws differ from say..Manila and Cavite?
I have a house in Tagaytay city. Would that entitle one to purchase in Manila?

Thanks

Python
March 7, 2007, 08:59 PM
Horge, just got back from the Philippines couple of nights ago. Did not bother to let you know cause we cant go shooting anyway. I was even surprised to learn that even "air gun" was covered by the "gun ban". That sucks,:mad: as I was hoping to go bird (dove) hunting with my air rifle.

Pun
March 8, 2007, 01:02 AM
The Filipino half of your dual citizenship would entitle you to legally possess
up to 15 handguns and 6 rifles/shotguns (even more if the PNP-FED
Chief agrees). There are many gunstores and even gun manufacturers in
Cebu.

The law permits you to purchase select-fire firearms, but the government body
tasked with licensing/registration of firearms (PNP-FED) will do its utmost to
discourage you, especially after certain portions of the new Anti-Terrorism Act
were added.

That said, there occasionally used to be M4's going for as little as 120k
(pesos) --the cyclic rate reducers by FERFRANS really work. MP5's fetch
more, around 130k. Knockoff MAC-10's can be had from Danao (Cebu)
for as little as 35k, but beware --if the seller isn't a licensed gunstore, you want
to stay far, far away.

AFAIK there is no standing law on sound suppressors, as the basis for the
old one was repealed... but again, PNP-FED will harrass you no end if it puts
you and the words "sound suppressor" within the same time zone. I however
still see a number of DIY suppressors and GemTechs used at the firing ranges.
Nobody wants to openly discuss the legal vacuum, because discussion will only
spawn renewed legislative restrictions (too many lawmakers with nothing better
to do).

There are LOTS of gun stores in Cebu. Let them worry about importing from wherever.

hth.

Ok, thanks horge for the information helps alot, so does that mean M4's are hard to find at legitimate sources? also do you know if H&K G36K is legal for civilian use? thanks again for the info.

horge
March 10, 2007, 09:17 AM
Hi wateman :)
Our laws on firearms are applied nationwide.
Higher concentration of gunstores in the capital than anywhere else
in the country, and it's great to browse gunstores inside Manila's
airconditioned mega-shopping malls.

No matter where you buy, you get issued a 7-day transport permit to
get your NIB blaster home to Tagaytay, along with your new license.
So long as you don't have to board a ship, plane, bus or other public
transport to get home, no probs.

Keep in mind, no licenses are issued during the election period, and it
can take 3 weeks minimum to get licensed, in normal times. Make sure
the gun you'rebuying is physically in-stock (have them quote the unit's
serial number) before putting down cash. As mentioned earlier, you will likely
be buying sight-unseen (!!!). If you're not careful, the gun won't actually
be in stock, and you will wait until a gun gets imported from wherever.

Python :(
Even most knives are covered by the election-period ban!
The timing on your visit really sucked, my friend.
You still could've visited Armscor firing range in Marikina, and
(depending on the day) rented or borrowed a Steyr AUG, M14, M3, etc...

Pun,
Very difficult now to find M4's for sale.
Again, select-fire is allowed by law (including the HK G36, if available),
However, the agency tasked with issuing licenses will refuse to
honor said law (again, partly due to countermanding parts of the new
Anti Terrorism Act), and gunstores just won't stock what they
know won't be licensed quickly (if at all) --consumers want their NIB guns
licensed pronto. Licenses are issued per firearm, not per owner.



hth,
horge

Pun
March 10, 2007, 09:44 PM
Ok, Thanks horge, I don't mind playing the waiting game, but as long as i get it.

CLINE34
March 24, 2007, 01:27 AM
I am living in HK and would like to come to Manilla. I have interests in U.S. Rifle M1 Garands. Can anyone help me locate these, and tell me when the next gun show is ?
Thanks, Dave

horge
March 24, 2007, 07:42 AM
Dave/CLINE34,

If I'm not mistaken, the next big Gun Show is going to be held from
July 12-17, 2007, at the SM MegaMall Trade Hall.... and then again in
November. This years theme is (IIRC) Firearms for Women Empowerment.

The shows are almost totally for brand new merch, so you won't likely be
finding any old M1A's there. Twin Pines (Rock Island Armory) is however
marketing its shiny new, select-fire M14's and AK47's, so you can at least
fondle/ogle*


hth,
horge

*Only Filipino citizens can buy guns in the Philippines. See recent/previous
posts above on additional, increased purchasing restrictions in the Philippines.

nathan
March 24, 2007, 09:56 AM
Horge, thats good news. A lot of new stuff coming, maybe civilians can now own those select fire m16s and aks.

CLINE34
March 26, 2007, 08:00 AM
Horge, thanks for the information. I am a U.S. citizen working in Hong Kong. Even an airgun is very very difficult to obtain. I am surprised there are few old U.S. military surplus rifles ( semi-auto ) for sale, or am I wrong ?

Thanks, Dave

horge
March 26, 2007, 10:42 AM
Hi Dave,

Our surplus M14's, M3's, M1's were originally U.S. EDA, and more importantly,
are Philippine Government property. We don't have those military disposal sales
the U.S. enjoys from time to time --heck, mothballed M3's are being reissued
to our equipment-strapped Marines: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=95093

Generally, the public sale of Philippine government firearms is against the law.
That's why crates of WW2 1911's, Thompsons and such are rotting away
in .gov warehouses over here -- we've no money to recondition them, and
no legal way to liquidate 'em.

That said, there's brisk blackmarket trafficking in M16's and other 'modern'
firearms. Rebels overrun a military camp, and sell off the booty, or a number of
corrupt REMF's sell US-donated arms --sometimes even to rebels (Communists
or Islamofascists) -- for profit, claiming the arms were stolen by said rebels.

:banghead:

Pun
June 30, 2007, 08:37 AM
Could someone help, Can someone tell me where some gun ranges in Cebu or Manilla is? Ones that i can fire automatic's preferably. Locations + Prices.
Thanks i couldn't find any on google.

horge
July 1, 2007, 04:00 AM
Look up ASRI (Armscor Shooting Ranges Inc.)

The open air range at their manufacturing plant (Marikina) is sometimes
deafening due to maniacs cranking up their Steyr AUG's, M14's, and yes...
the ubiquitous M4's.* I do not know if those are rentals or if those are
user-owned.... so, best to give API in Nevada a call to see if they know.
Armscor also has a facility in Cebu, but I don't know if its pistol-only or what.

In downtown Manila, there's the (indoor) MPSA:
"Fields & Forest" 231 Muelle de Binondo, Dasmariņas Street, Binondo
244-6514, 243-2465, 245-4587, 244-4897 (fax)
Try giving them a call: I hear they have all kinds of exotics there.

Most ranges are membership-based, but walk-ins (where allowed) can
pay a range usage fee of about US$20. Pistol rentals about US$10 an hour,
and ammo around 10c round (range reloads or 'corkage').

hth.
horge


*Can't stand it when someone shows up with an Ultimax or an FN Minimi.
I see that, I'm off to another, quieter range.

loloy
August 3, 2007, 09:22 AM
horge
do you have any idea how much a full size M&P 9mm costs here in the Phil.?

horge
August 4, 2007, 01:22 AM
You might want to give Twin Pines/Casa Armas a call.
Here's a Directory to Philippine Gun stores I've been tending:
http://ffforum.50webs.com/directory.html

I don't remember seeing the S&W M&P 9 at the last GunShow (July2007),
but last I heard it was priced at 55k.

hth
horge

loloy
August 5, 2007, 12:35 PM
thanks i just want to compare prices SRP. i guess mine was a better deal for only 49K not much of a choice here anyway in the southern part.

Python
August 5, 2007, 01:23 PM
How have you been Horge? Can you PM me your contact number. Maybe we can do range time when I am there (Manila or Nueva Ecija). Am usually home harvest time between Feb-March and Oct-Nov. Also, do you know what it takes, how much you will spend, or can I do "do it yourself PTC application"? I find its not worth it for me to pay a gun store or local club to assist in applying PTC yearly since the most I am there is one to two months a year. Group PPT to transport my firearms to ranges and competition applied by our local club and PPSA is what I usually rely on. But it would be nice to have a PTC when I am home.:)

horge
August 6, 2007, 07:02 AM
Hi Python,
I'm fine, but swamped with work for the next 18 months.

They've tightened on PTC's (national CCW permits) The application process
takes qite awhile longer to clear, and so applying might not benefit you in
time, given that you stay only a couple of months at a time. Receipted fees
run to about 6k. Additional expenses for afffidavits and other requisite
paperwork can push your cost up to nearly 16k or more.

:)

joel1316
September 19, 2007, 06:23 PM
Fellow Filipino's,
We just started a a forum called "Progun Filipino". I hope that we can get Filipinos from all over to join and share information with one another....
Here is the website:
http://progunfilipino.20.forumer.com/

CountGlockula
September 19, 2007, 06:30 PM
Awesome!!!

gi baby
November 6, 2007, 06:22 AM
]hi folks!see u again this coming nov 22-26 at mega mall.im sure,busog na nman ang mga mata natin sa nag gagandahang baril!

philip3065
November 8, 2007, 10:36 AM
is there another gun show in Manila during December, as i will miss the one this month, i am in the market to find a good 45.

Leo Leonardo
December 31, 2008, 01:45 PM
Thread necromancy!

Is handloading legal in the Philippines? Should I send a LEE reloading kit over in the next Balikbayan box? The equipment, brass, and bullets shouldn't be a problem, but the primers and powder probably aren't allowed on planes. Are primers and powder available in the Philippines? Is most of the ammunition sold in the PI of the Boxer primed variety?

Birador
June 30, 2009, 04:16 AM
Handloading need to have a permit, reloading machine need to have license. All materials are available and gun store will sell if you have all the documents.

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