hirtenberger 9mm +p+


PDA






Wookie
July 9, 2004, 04:32 PM
Does anyone have any experience with this ammo? I acquired some last night and don't know if is ok to shoot in my Kel-tec P11 or Taurus pt911.

If you enjoyed reading about "hirtenberger 9mm +p+" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jc2
July 9, 2004, 07:27 PM
DON'T! --unless you want to have buy a new weapon and possibly do severe physical damage to your shooting hand and eyesight (not mention the anybody that might be shooting beside you). The stuff is way, way overpressure.

mrapathy2000
July 9, 2004, 08:04 PM
the p11 can handle a small ammount of +p ammo at a time no more than 40 per session. it will soften the barrel after alot of it.

+p+ would not use it.

kokapelli
July 9, 2004, 08:24 PM
I have shot 200 rounds of it in my Kahr K-9 without a problem.

If Clark is looking at this thread, he probably will have an educated opinion about using it in the P-11.

I think he has KABOOMED a couple of P-11 with supper hot hand loads.

JohnKSa
July 9, 2004, 08:35 PM
That's not your average +P+. The BATF has issued a warning about this ammo. It is not intended for use in ANY pistols and is NOT SAFE in most pistols.

It was loaded for use in submachineguns in very cold weather.

Don't use this ammo unless you have contacted the manufacturer of your firearm and verified that the Hirtenberger 9mm+P+ L7A1 load is safe in your firearm.

WonderNine
July 10, 2004, 08:28 PM
I have fired hundreds of the Hirtinberger 124gr. +P+ through BHP's, a B92FS and a Browning BDM. It's like shooting a .357SIG. The primers are recessed and maybe a little hard. They did not go off reliably with any of these guns. None of the guns functioned reliably either with it. All of the guns I shot it out of were 100% with any other 9mm. I still have about 50 rounds of the stuff left in a plastic ammo can. I plan on chronographing some of them out of my CZ-52 when I get the 9mm barrel for it.

I would guesstimate that it is probably approx. 500fpe out of a 4" barrel.

JohnKSa
July 10, 2004, 08:37 PM
I plan on chronographing some of them out of my CZ-52 when I get the 9mm barrel for it.Take my advice and videotape it when you do.

You're talking about this stuff, right?HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION

Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been
advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9X19 mm
caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any
handgun.

The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through
1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for
use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns.

The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition
has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be
identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the
cartridge case

12 O'clock position: HP
3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
6 O'clock position: L7Al
9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle

This ammunition should not be fired.

mrapathy2000
July 10, 2004, 08:56 PM
would not use that ammo in cz52. C&R pistol + non spec caliber using cartridge with load above the standard spec. asking for trouble.

WonderNine
July 11, 2004, 03:41 AM
The 9mm case can handle the pressure plenty well.....obviously....

When the search index rebuilds will I be able to do a search of either of you and find out that you own a .40 with an unsupported chamber? Oh the irony... :D

Yea, 9X23 CZ-52 that's great.....but don't dare shoot that 9X19 Hirtenberger ammo out of that thing! :rolleyes:

Have either of you ever fired a Tokarev or CZ-52? Do you both understand the pressure specs of the 7.62X25 cartridge? You both know the pressure capabilities of the 9mm cartridge? Doesn't sound like it. :scrutiny:

mrapathy2000
July 11, 2004, 04:51 AM
tokarev is 308 vs 9mm .355
pressure 7.62 tok 4200cup is max i see in my load book with 110gr bullet
.87cc usefull case capacity

9mm seems to keep it at 30000 to 33000 cup
see couple loads going beyound 3300cup. 125gr to 147 gr though
.74cc usefull case capacity
book is modern reloading sec ed doesnt list spec presure

standard 9mm lugar pressure 35000 psi,+p 38000 psi. +p+?
okay found out hirtenburger does 44kps or 44kcup

and you want to use subgun +p+ HIGH PRESSURE ammo in a C&R pistol with a larger caliber than originally designed for with heavier ammo designed for?

http://p201.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm25.showMessage?topicID=115.topic
+P+ : "+P+" is NOT a SAAMI designation at all. In fact, it is probably best described as a marketing gimmick. Ammunition marked "+P+" exceeds all accepted SAAMI standards. This is problematic, because the consumer has no idea how high the pressures generated by this ammunition will actually peak. This marking is most often seen on 9mm Luger ammunition. Theoretically, this means that ammunition marked "9mm Luger +P+" peaks at 38,501 psi or higher, but nothing precludes the manufacturer from defrauding the consumer. That is, the "+P+" may not actually be that high in pressure. (Remember, compliance with SAAMI is voluntary, and there is no express guarantee made about ammo marked +P+, only ammo marked with official SAAMI designations.) Shooting so-called +P+ ammunition in any real quantity will still shorten the service life of pistols that are not immediately damaged. +P+ ammunition will quickly ruin some of the older 9mm pistols.

I have read reports that some of the European 9mm NATO is much higher in pressure than it US counterparts; this is definitely true of some of the Hirtenberger SMG ammunition. Remember, the key NATO specification is velocity, and the manufacturers appear to have a fairly wide range of acceptable maximum pressures, so long as the ammo is fast enough. As such, I would assume that most of the 9mm NATO handgun ammunition exceeds SAAMI and CIP standards, but probably not all. All 9mm NATO expressly intended for SMGs is extremely high in pressure, and it is not safe in any service pistol.

couldnt find cup to psi conversion.

look up clarks post if you want to find out how to blow up a cz52 another way.

WonderNine
July 11, 2004, 04:56 AM
I don't even understand what you're argueing.

Are you argueing that the gun is too weak or that the 9mm case is too weak and that Hirtenberger rounds explode?

Either way you're flatly wrong to the point of being absurd.

Clark is a great asset to this site and I'm sure he would agree with me.

WonderNine
July 11, 2004, 05:09 AM
Gonna run some of these babies through my CZ. :D

mrapathy2000
July 11, 2004, 05:41 AM
they dont recommend that ammo for a pistol much less a C&R or close to C&R age pistol.

here go see what Clark has to say about the CZ52 pistol for yourself.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22071&highlight=clark+tokarev

WonderNine
July 11, 2004, 05:55 AM
Oh you're so fixated on that C&R thing that it's just hilarious.

Yes I know very well that the CZ-52 has thin chamber walls because of the roller cutouts. What does that have to do with this?

mrapathy2000
July 11, 2004, 07:24 AM
be sure to video tape it to show me how wrong I am.

Drakejake
July 11, 2004, 10:45 AM
I think the conventional wisdom is that the CZ-52 is designed for a stronger round than the Tokarev pistol. So the truth is the opposite? The Tok pistol is stronger than the 52? So there is no problem shooting Winchester or S&B Tok ammo in both the 52 and the Tokarev?

Drakejake

Wildalaska
July 11, 2004, 12:40 PM
Fire that stuff in a CZ 52 and you may not have fingers left to post anti cop threads anymore :)

Seriously probably wont blow up, but gonnas shake that pistol up real loose. Recently saw a BHP that was ruined by it.

WildobeywarningsAlaska

WonderNine
July 11, 2004, 04:05 PM
This reminds me of a "Don't shoot .38spl +P+ through your .357 Redhawk!!" type thread.

Dionysusigma
July 11, 2004, 10:33 PM
Just be sure to use a length of string, and get behind a good, strong barricade before giving the string a tug. ;)

If I owned a couple of CZ-52s, I might try it. :)

JohnKSa
July 11, 2004, 10:45 PM
Experience is a hard teacher but some will accept no other.

Cthulhu
July 11, 2004, 11:22 PM
DrakeJake-

I think the conventional wisdom is that the CZ-52 is designed for a stronger round than the Tokarev pistol. So the truth is the opposite? The Tok pistol is stronger than the 52? So there is no problem shooting Winchester or S&B Tok ammo in both the 52 and the Tokarev?

Short answers. Conventional Wisdom is demonstratably wrong in this case. Yes, Yes, Yes.

Wondernine-
I have to agree with you. The CZ will survive, (barring some pre-existing mechanical issue, fissure, etc). Clark was talking about loads that exceed case strength of the 9mm. These aren't even close. Will they batter pistols to oblivion faster than standard pressure rounds. Most definitely, as this is a simple physics issue. Being able to handle the Hirtenberger ammo is not an endorsement of the CZ52 as a strong pistol. It is, in this case, merely strong enough.

Felonious Monk
July 11, 2004, 11:36 PM
Wookie--
***???
Did you not believe my answer at KTOG about this being submachine gun ammo?

Geez....
Wise men learn from the mistakes of others.

FM

patentnonsense
July 11, 2004, 11:37 PM
Sounds like a cheap way to get something like 9x23 ballistics, IF you had a gun that would take it -
Who has this for sale?
And what 9mm pieces might theoretically be able to handle these pressure levels?

Clark
July 12, 2004, 12:27 AM
The hirtenberger +P+ 100 gr. SP I have here is "HP 9mm LUGER +P+"
It is wimpy.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

1) 9mm is 35,000 psi max pressure
An example of this pressure would be 7.83 gr. AA#5, 115 gr. JHP

2) 9mm +P is 38,500 psi max pressure
An example of this pressure would be to add 3.7% extra powder, 8.12 gr. AA#5, 115 gr. JHP

3) 9mm, the pressure level I do all the time with my P11, an example would be 27.7 % extra powder, 10 gr. AA#5, 115 gr. JHP pierces the primer and makes the case bulge in the shape of the feed ramp.

4) 9mm, the pressure level I DO NOT DO VERY MUCH in my P11, 36.6% extra powder, 10.7 gr. AA#5, 115 gr. JHP, hole blows in case.

5) 9mm, The pressure level I DO NOT WANT TO EVER DO AGAIN IN MY P11, 46.9% extra powder, 11.5 gr. AA#5, blew case head off, blew bottom plate off magazine, blew extractor out of gun, blew hold open out of gun, had to wait for parts to arrive from Kel-Tec.

Here is a picture of the brass from 3,4, and 5:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=236652

My P11 is fine now, and I only shoot overloads in it.
But when someone asks if they will hurt their gun with 3.7% extra powder, I really have to laugh. Big corporations with risk averse lawyers are selling +P 9mm, because they know of the mountainous safety margins with 9mm ammo.

The parts that have been replaced on my P11 are the extractor, hold open, and magazine bottom plate. That was the 5) shot described and brass picture in the above post, back in 1999.

Since then I have tried to quit a work up when I see a case bulge. If a primer pierces, sometimes I will try a magnum primer.

I also try to stay away from overload work ups with AA#5 in all guns except '98 Mausers.

I have probably fired 100 factory rounds and 200 overloaded rounds in my P11 in the ~6 years I have owned it.

My favorite P11 load is to ream out the throat on a spare P11 barrel so it will take 158 gr. .357" XTP bullets seated out to 1.169". Loaded to 8.5 gr. Power Pistol, it will pierce the primer, but if the powder is double compressed so the bullet is not squished, and the loaded round is re sized without a decapping stem, then the round can be loaded to 11 gr. without primer piercing [more than a double charge based on 35kpsi max load]. That is now my favorite P11 load, but I suspect more power is possible with 800X.

The noise, recoil, and flash from the 11 gr. PP 158 gr. load is so bad in a P11, that is more for this fanatic that good self defense, unless you are in Grizzly country.

One reason for posting this kind of outlandish behavior is to reign in all the +P questions.

What does it all mean?
1) +P is 4% extra powder
2) 29% extra AA#5, and close to blowing a case
3) Over 100% extra Power Pistol and it just kicks harder and harder.
4) That P11 is one tough little gun.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

JohnKSa
July 12, 2004, 12:59 AM
Clark,

Have you ever fired any of the L7A1 Hirtenberger--I'm pretty sure it's not 100gr SP ammo... My guess would be 124gr FMJ, based on what I've read elsewhere.

Also interested to know your opinion of how much overloading the CZ-52 would take in 9mm--I haven't done the search (guess I can't right now) but I seem to recall you saying that the CZ-52 was one of the few pistols that failed before the brass did. I'm guessing that would put it somewhere around step #3 in your "sequence of destruction."

WonderNine
July 12, 2004, 01:21 AM
All of the stuff I have left and have shot is marked with a circle with two lines intersecting through it and then L7 A1 91 HP. It's the 124gr. surplus.

Pilot
July 12, 2004, 10:25 AM
I have a box of Hirtenberger 9MM amm, but its 100 grain not 124. Its marked 100 grs SOFT POINT FL-BULLET, Law Enforcement Grade. I've shot about 50 rounds of this stuff through various 9MM pistols, but a few years ago. I don't remember the recoil being bad, maybe due to the light bullet. Shot fine. I assume this is not the subgun ammo the BATF is warning us about. The case is stamped HP, +p+, 9MM Luger.

WonderNine
July 12, 2004, 05:05 PM
Yea, I don't think it is either. I believe it's just the 124 gr. +P+ that comes in the brown boxes.

Pilot
July 13, 2004, 06:20 PM
"Yea, I don't think it is either. I believe it's just the 124 gr. +P+ that comes in the brown boxes."

Thanks Wondernine, I didn't think so, but wanted to make sure.

If you enjoyed reading about "hirtenberger 9mm +p+" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!