Shameless LP plug


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twoblink
July 12, 2004, 01:14 AM
If you are strictly a 2nd Amendment voter, then you should be voting LP this year. (and every year).

http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/GunControl.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gun Control Means Being Able to Hit your Target

If I have a "hot button" issue, this is definitely it. Don't even THINK about taking my guns! My rights are not negotiable, and I am totally unwilling to compromise when it comes to the Second Amendment.

Let me reiterate an axiom of my philosophy. Rights and privileges are polar opposites. A right is something that I can do without asking. A privilege is something that a higher authority allows me to do. It is utter nonsense for us to accept government permits in order to exercise an inalienable right. Allow me to point out some fallacies in the arguments frequently used by the anti-gun movement.

First, it is impossible for the Second Amendment to confer a "community right", because communities HAVE no rights. Individuals are real. Communities are abstract concepts. You can have individuals without communities, but you cannot have communities without individuals. Ergo, individuals must come first, and only the individuals that make up a community can have rights.

Second, the phrase "well regulated militia" is frequently misconstrued to mean:
a) lots of government regulations; and,
b) only the National Guard is allowed to carry guns.

It is necessary to understand the definitions common in America during the time of our war for independence. "Well regulated" used to mean "well prepared". Every man was expected to have a rifle, one pound of gun powder, and sixteen balls for his weapon. He was also expected to be ready to USE that rifle within sixty seconds of the alarm being sounded. Hence the term "minute man".

It is disingenuous for anyone to promote the argument that "militia" refers only to the National Guard in light of the fact that the Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791, and the National Guard wasn't formed until the early 1900's. This argument is totally without merit, unless you want to imply that our founding fathers were able to predict the future.

I sincerely believe that statistical evidence supports the idea that crime increases exponentially wherever gun control is instituted as the governing policy. Washington DC, New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles have the strictest gun control policies in the United States. The cities with the highest murder rates are Washington DC, New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. It doesn't take a PhD to be able to draw the proper conclusion from this evidence. England and Australia have recently instituted strict gun control measures, and both countries have seen the statistics on violent crime quadruple. In contrast, I am told that the city of Kennesaw, Georgia passed a municipal ordinance that requires homeowners to have a firearm available. Home invasions have dropped to less than 10% of their original rate, indicating to me that criminals value their lives more than they value your property.

I have no doubt that members of the anti-gun crowd would be happy to offer statistical data which appears to contradict the numbers I have just mentioned. Even if they could, their alternate statistics are not enough authority to strip me of my inalienable right to keep and bear arms. My rights are non-negotiable. I don't care if someone else doesn't like it. I don't care if they toss and turn at night, anxiously worried about what I might do with my firearm. My rights are not predicated on whether or not you LIKE what I'm doing. You only have a complaint when I present a "clear and present danger", which is not the case if I have my firearm in a holster.

Repealing unconstitutional gun control laws will be one of my first priorities as President of the United States.

I'm Michael Badnarik, Libertarian for President. I ask the tough questions---to give you answers that really work!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Repealing unconstitutional gun control laws will be one of my first priorities as President of the United States.

This guy gets it.

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JCampGCO
July 12, 2004, 02:51 PM
It seems that most of the people on this board are die hard, one track minded republicrats.

Trying to get them to be open minded and vote libertarian is like trying to convince a brady bunch soccer mom moron that gun control doesn't work.

FYI: I will be voting Libertarian for president and when kommrade Bush renews the AWB and takes away more of your rights with "patriot act" part three, I will have every right to yell and complain at those who voted for the "lesser of the two evils" because of the situation THEY created.

The answer is clear, but yet these same people can't see beyond the tip of their nose.

And enough of the complaining about the legalizing of non lethal drugs. Do any of you realize the income potential for the government if they regulated and taxed drugs like marijuana and hash? They could eliminated the federal income with the money they could make on these drugs. MJ and hash is about as dangerous some hillbilly guzzling down moonshine - another "drug" the government is too stupid to regulate and make money off of.

rock jock
July 12, 2004, 03:12 PM
It seems that most of the people on this board are die hard, one track minded republicrats.

Trying to get them to be open minded and vote libertarian is like trying to convince a brady bunch soccer mom moron that gun control doesn't work.
Well, that's certainly one perspective. Another is that those of us who will be voting for Bush will actually making a difference, on the side of freedom, NOT responding in a knee-jerk fashion that only serves to gratify our egos and aid Herr Kerry and his socialist comrades.

buy guns
July 12, 2004, 03:19 PM
Well, that's certainly one perspective. Another is that those of us who will be voting for Bush will actually making a difference, on the side of freedom, NOT responding in a knee-jerk fashion that only serves to gratify our egos and aid Herr Kerry and his socialist comrades.

i am sick of hearing people say a vote for someone other than bush is a vote for kerry. that is complete BS. you arent voting for kerry unless you mark his name on your ballot (or whatever electronic gizmo they use).

the only way to get a third party into the white house is to actually vote for that person.

whether or not you vote for kerry or bush, you are still voting in favor of gun control.

fix
July 12, 2004, 03:30 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. If you vote specifically on the 2nd Amendment, and ONLY on the 2nd Amendment, you should vote Libertarian...err...wait. The Constitution Party has essentially the same stance.

:neener:

ProGlock
July 12, 2004, 03:32 PM
I'm voting for Badnarik.

btw, I just noticed on Badnarik's website they have a new video online that shows his responses during the libertarian primary debates. Definitely worth watching because that guy is awesome on PR.

rock jock
July 12, 2004, 03:44 PM
I am sick of hearing people say a vote for someone other than bush is a vote for kerry. that is complete BS. you arent voting for kerry unless you mark his name on your ballot (or whatever electronic gizmo they use).

the only way to get a third party into the white house is to actually vote for that person.
It doesn't really matter whether or not you lie hearing it, it is a question of reality. NO 3rd-party candidate will win. Period. End of story. Ergo, any vote not for Bush is a vote which will help Kerry win the presidency. Exactly what he wants. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that Badnarik is a closet dem working in the background to help pull votes from Bush.
whether or not you vote for kerry or bush, you are still voting in favor of gun control
Oh, sure, there is no difference between the two when it comes to guns. :rolleyes: That is, if you ignore the fact that he has an AG that has voiced his opinion that the 2nd Amendment is an individualright, not a collective right. And if you ignore the fact that no significant gun control legislation has been signed into law under his administration. And if you ignore the fact that Bush has thumbed his nose at UN efforts to have worldwide gun confiscation. And if you ignore the fact that while as governor he signed legislation in Texas that gave us the legal right to CCW. And if you gnore the fact that Kerry has advocated and voted for every piece of gun control that has made its across his desk. And if you ignore...........oh, never mind, facts don't seem to make any difference to you.

fix
July 12, 2004, 03:47 PM
If you are strictly a 2nd Amendment voter, then you should be voting LP this year. (and every year).

I'd still like to hear why the Constitution Party isn't advocated over the Libertarian Party, given the context of the quoted statement.

Libertarian Party Stance (http://lp.org/issues/gun-rights.html)

Constitution Party Stance (http://www.constitutionparty.org/party_platform.php#Gun%20Control)

Bartholomew Roberts
July 12, 2004, 04:04 PM
Definitely worth watching because that guy is awesome on PR.

The guy who I have only seen in a tri-cornered hat and knee-high breeches carrying an AR15 with a scope on the carry handle is good at PR eh? Good for who? ;)

ProGlock
July 12, 2004, 04:26 PM
The guy who I have only seen in a tri-cornered hat and knee-high breeches carrying an AR15 with a scope on the carry handle is good at PR eh? Good for who?

Good in terms of an image for the libertarian party as a whole and what the party stands for.

I looked at Peroutka's platform but I very much disagree with his continued use of religion in his campaign (or anyone's campaign for that matter). Some issues he elaborated on were not explained in great detail either. I know he means well, and his 2nd amendment stance is top notch, but it just isn't there for me.

rock jock
July 12, 2004, 04:29 PM
I really wish some of you folks that support Badnarik could hear him in person. I have. I have talked to him in person. He gets a deer-in-the-headlights look when you ask him hard questions. He makes Bush look positively professorial.

buy guns
July 12, 2004, 04:30 PM
It doesn't really matter whether or not you lie hearing it, it is a question of reality. NO 3rd-party candidate will win. Period. End of story. Ergo, any vote not for Bush is a vote which will help Kerry win the presidency.


of course they wont because everyone has this same attitude.Oh, sure, there is no difference between the two when it comes to guns. That is, if you ignore the fact that he has an AG that has voiced his opinion that the 2nd Amendment is an individualright, not a collective right. And if you ignore the fact that no significant gun control legislation has been signed into law under his administration. And if you ignore the fact that Bush has thumbed his nose at UN efforts to have worldwide gun confiscation. And if you ignore the fact that while as governor he signed legislation in Texas that gave us the legal right to CCW. And if you gnore the fact that Kerry has advocated and voted for every piece of gun control that has made its across his desk. And if you ignore...........oh, never mind, facts don't seem to make any difference to you.


yes thats very true but has he done anything to get rid of the pointless gun laws we already have?

rock jock
July 12, 2004, 04:40 PM
yes thats very true but has he done anything to get rid of the pointless gun laws we already have?
So now your argument is that Bush is as bad as Kerry because while he hasn't signed new legislation into law, he won't work to overturn existing gun-control laws, the very same laws that will pale in comparison to the ones that Kerry will sign?
of course they wont because everyone has this same attitude.
No, they won't win because most voters don't support them, and the ones that do only serve to hurt the two-party candidate that most closely aligns with their views.

bigmtnman
July 12, 2004, 04:46 PM
AaaaH, POLITICS!
Nothing it seems can get folks' dander up more than POLITICS.
One of the things we can still enjoy, in this country, is our freedom to vote for whomever you wish. Vote for Bush, vote for Kerry, vote for Badnarik, vote for Nader, vote for Donald Duck or Porky Pig if you want. Just exercize your right to vote. Waste your vote, vote to block, vote your conscience, vote third party, whatever, just vote!
If enough people would eventually vote libertarian, we would never have to vote again. No government, no politics.
Government is government, no matter who's in power. Hail! to the new boss - same as the old boss!!

Glock Glockler
July 12, 2004, 04:50 PM
Well, that's certainly one perspective. Another is that those of us who will be voting for Bush will actually making a difference, on the side of freedom, NOT responding in a knee-jerk fashion that only serves to gratify our egos and aid Herr Kerry and his socialist comrades.

Suppose one is in a state that is not a swing state, a vote for Badnarik will essentially carry the same weight as a vote for Bush to one who is not in a swing state.

Someone in CA who votes for badnarik is then having as much of an effect as someone who votes for Bush: Zero, because neither one will win that state. I'd also like to know how Bush is such a champion for freedom, cause he just looks like another big govt supporter from this angle.

fix
July 12, 2004, 05:05 PM
I looked at Peroutka's platform but I very much disagree with his continued use of religion in his campaign

Ahhh, you admit that you vote on more than one issue!!!

This thread is not for you. Move along now...:D

Still waiting for the answer.

JohnBT
July 12, 2004, 05:05 PM
"Trying to get them to be open minded and vote libertarian is like trying to convince a brady bunch soccer mom moron that gun control doesn't work."

Sonny, I was attending meetings and voting LP before you were born. Insulting folks or putting them down is not a good way to convert them to your cause.

Meanwhile, the LP has been going nowhere since the '70s.

John

rock jock
July 12, 2004, 05:21 PM
Thank you, John.

I would also say that IMO the reason the LP has remained essentially a political joke is that they do not pursue local races enough; rather, they always concentrate their energies on the big enchilada. Pepole have no idea what the LP stands for because they only hear about them every four years, usually in the same reference as the Communist Party of America.

twoblink
July 12, 2004, 11:33 PM
My voting state is the PRK.. :barf:

I don't think Bush has a prayer in that state, and so voting for Bush is a vote against the libertarian party, who has just as much chance in the PRK.

I'm actually a registered Republican, but I always vote Libertarian, because of an article I read about 3 brothers.

A dad died and he had 3 sons and a company, and so each son got 33.3% stake of the company. The young one, being the smart one, wanted to start his own company, but didn't want to not have a say in the company. So he sold all but 2% of his stake to his brothers.

The first brother had 49%,
The second brother had 49%,
The third had 2%.

The company required 51% to pass anything, and so basically, anytime two brothers agreeded, they would override the 3rd. The beauty of this was, the 3rd brother had basically equal weight as far as deciding whether something would get passed or not, despite the fact that he only had 2%.

If a libertarian party got 6% of the votes, they wouldn't win, but if the jackasses got 47%, and the dumbo's got 47%, then both sides would have to try to woo the libertarians (at least half of them) over to their platform by giving up certain things or promising certain things. This is how you influence politics.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I vote my principles so I can sleep at night.

If you want to pick a winner, go to the horse races.

If you want to pick a party with principles, go vote for the libertarian party.

Republicrats? What have they done? Ahnold and Bush haven't done squat to lower taxes and decrease government and they never will.

Remember folks, just because it says FICA in black and there's no - sign in front of it, it's still a DEDUCTION.

If you like paying taxes and giving away your hard earned dollars so congress can play ken and barbie, that's fine, then vote for the blues or reds.

But you can try this year, instead of voting for the "lesser of the two evils" to vote for the good.

JCampGCO
July 13, 2004, 12:05 AM
Sonny, I was attending meetings and voting LP before you were born. Insulting folks or putting them down is not a good way to convert them to your cause.

And putting words in one's mouth will...

I never named names or pointed fingers specifically to anyone, nor did I use metaphors directed towards any one person.

I made a collective statement...old man....

rock jock
July 13, 2004, 12:18 AM
Twoblink,

Your analogy is valid only for the Congress and for those races, I say fine. I would actually like to see more LP members in the House. BUT, for the presidency, the LP will never win and it is afterall, a total win or lose proposition. There is not a 3rd (or even 2nd) brother sharing power in the Oval Office. It is absolutely essential that Kerry not win this year. The consequences would make Bush seem like Ayn Rand in comparison.

ReadyontheRight
July 13, 2004, 12:21 AM
So now your argument is that Bush is as bad as Kerry because while he hasn't signed new legislation into law, he won't work to overturn existing gun-control laws, the very same laws that will pale in comparison to the ones that Kerry will sign?

No...the ones that Kerry will CHAMPION.

ReadyontheRight
July 13, 2004, 12:29 AM
John BT -- You are dead-on accurate in your assessment.

I'm an old LP voter myself. I'm sure I'll do it again, but not this time.

Desertdog
July 13, 2004, 12:47 AM
Trying to get them to be open minded and vote libertarian is like trying to convince a brady bunch soccer mom moron that gun control doesn't work.
Getting a Libertarian to register as a Republican and running with Libertarian ideas and beliefs, where they may actually be elected, seems to be almost as hard. It will work and so why not try it?

This also applies to the Constitutional Party.

You are guaranteed not not do any worse than you are now, and I would vote for them.

I do not believe in voting for someone that is guaranteed to lose. If they are going to lose, why waste my time?

JCampGCO
July 13, 2004, 12:50 AM
Getting a Libertarian to register as a Republican and running with Libertarian ideas and beliefs, where they may actually be elected, seems to be almost as hard. It will work and so why not try it?

Tis a good idea. If we can't vote them out, then we will "breed" them out.

Desertdog
July 13, 2004, 01:06 AM
Tis a good idea. If we can't vote them out, then we will "breed" them out.
That is what I want to happen.:evil:

cropcirclewalker
July 13, 2004, 02:07 AM
I'm just an old guy, VN vet, tired, child of the 60's.

I was a school kid in the midwest when we got under our desks and put our arms over our heads to protect ourselves from the nuclear attack of those Godless commies.

I used to religiously watch "Victory at Sea" every week. dit dit dit dah. (for you govt. public school types, that's morse code for "V", get it? Victory) :p

I watched those guys with their ack ack guns shooting down the Kamikazis. I had an uncle that survived the sinking of the USS Helana. I used to lay in bed at night and listen to him tell my father "sea stories". I was propagandized to the extreme. I signed up in the Navy to go kill commies.

This is not rant. This is deep background.

I turned out to be an incurable idealist. I read the founders. I love my constitution, but our govt. is on it's way to Hell in a handbasket. We have been screwed.

Want to know why I will vote Libertarian? simple, Read the constitution. The constitution tells the govt. what it may do and how it may do it.

Read the BoR. A negative document. It tells the govt. what it may NOT do. So, OK, we don't have soldiers quartered in our homes. The rest of the BoR has been cast asunder. We are all screwed.



Like I said, I am old. I am tired. They can tie me to a post, put a blindfold on me and stick a cigarette in my mouth (I could go fer a smoke) and fire away, but I will not forsake my constitution.

I don't care if Bush gets elected and then signs the "new improved" AWB or if Kerry gets elected and simply renews the old one. We are screwed. I will not be a part of their validation.

As an old sailor, I am prepared to go down with the ship.

Like Popeye (an old sailor too) said, "I've took all I can stands, and I can't stands no more!"

I am voting my principles, I am voting Libertarian.

twoblink
July 13, 2004, 01:09 PM
Here's the deal..

I'm basically a reject from both parties anyways..

I OWN a copy of the Federalist papers, and I've read them several times. I personally feel the Jefferson Memorial should be bigger than Lincoln's.

I believe in no taxes and everything be a service fee.

I VOTE MY MORALS AND PRICIPLES.

I figured that's what America was all about... And that America is a stark contrast to the one they teach you in the public war camps, err.. I mean public schools.

I never paid much attention in school, unlike the other kids, who knew it would turn out to benefit me so much?

I'm thinking I should move to New Hampshire and become the new Sheriff....

Bartholomew Roberts
July 13, 2004, 01:41 PM
If a libertarian party got 6% of the votes, they wouldn't win, but if the Democrats got 47%, and the Republicans got 47%, then both sides would have to try to woo the libertarians (at least half of them) over to their platform by giving up certain things or promising certain things. This is how you influence politics.

The problem being that in the over 30 years of the LPs existence, the highest percentage of the vote it has won in a Presidential election is 1.1% in 1980.

If you added up the percentage of the vote the LP has won in every single Presidential election since 1972, you still would be barely halfway to 6%.

To reach 6% in THIS election, every single one of the 384,431 people who voted LP in 2000 must convince 14 separate, unique people to vote LP in this election.

I think you are doing the right thing voting LP in California and I agree with your assessment of the political situation there; but the LP is not going to gain any influence in politics from outside without playing the spoiler in an election - and even then they have to get enough influence to match the Greens or both parties will simply note that there are more votes to the left than there are to the right and move that way (just like they did in 2000).

twoblink
July 14, 2004, 09:11 AM
Bart,

I hear ya. But if all the Republicans stopped wasting their votes in the PRK, then you might have a chance.

PEOPLE, VOTE YOUR PRINCIPLES..

Also, if you voted Libertarian, what's the worst that can happen? The PRK gives it's college votes to the Dem's? That's going to happen anyways. But voting Republican doesn't send out a message, getting 5% Libertarian votes in that state DOES.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 14, 2004, 09:33 AM
But if all the Republicans stopped wasting their votes in the PRK, then you might have a chance.

Unfortunately not all Republicans agree with most Republican platform points, let alone the LP platform. I consider my self a libertarian; but I disagree with their foreign policy platform, the gold standard stuff, and several other planks. I could still vote for LP as a candidate; but they have several planks I don't want to see happen.

The main point being that LP is not a straight across subsitute for Republican. At least a good portion of the people in the Republican party share more in common with the Democrats than the LP, it is one of the reasons the Republican party isn't more libertarian minded than it is.

But voting Republican doesn't send out a message, getting 5% Libertarian votes in that state DOES.

5% LP votes in California doesn't change anything because the Democrat lead over the Republicans is much more than 5% of the vote. The Republicans won't be any closer to winning that state by adopting LP ideals and the Dems won't be any closer to losing by ignoring them. The Greens, for example, had ten times the votes of the LP in California in 2000. So every California LP voter from 2000 has to convince at least 10 others to switch just to reach parity with the Greens.

Now if you can convince every single one of the 4.5 million Republicans in the state to vote LP in this election, you'll at least get the 5% federal funding level and I bet the Republicans would sit up and take notice; but I think you would agree that is probably not going to happen.

fix
July 14, 2004, 11:30 AM
Still confused about why the Libertarian Party is the only choice for single issue gun voters. :confused:

rock jock
July 14, 2004, 05:42 PM
PEOPLE, VOTE YOUR PRINCIPLES.
Sorry, twoblink, but when it comes to voting, my principles are not going to save lives or our RKBA. It will just gratify my own ego. I'm willing to swallow my pride for these things.

JohnBT
July 14, 2004, 05:44 PM
"I made a collective statement..."

You certainly did:

"It seems that most of the people on this board are die hard, one track minded republicrats."

And I said you wouldn't win friends and influence people to your way of thinking by insulting most of the people on this board.

Most of the Libertarians I've met were too busy smoking dope to vote.

John

Frohickey
July 14, 2004, 05:46 PM
LP baby!!!!

cropcirclewalker
July 14, 2004, 09:49 PM
Right Arm!

Outa State!

:D

cordex
July 14, 2004, 10:46 PM
NO 3rd-party candidate will win. Period. End of story. Ergo, any vote not for Bush is a vote which will help Kerry win the presidency.
In areas where Bush doesn't stand a chance of winning (Period. End of story.), who should people vote for? Should they vote for Kerry, because he has a chance? In those cases, is any vote for anyone but Kerry, a vote for Kerry?

(Again with the tired and sorely mistaken "If you ain't wit' us, your agin' us!" arguement, though? Haven't we covered why this is inaccurate? Or are you going for the Truth Through Repitition technique? ;) )

JCampGCO
July 15, 2004, 12:54 AM
And I said you wouldn't win friends and influence people to your way of thinking by insulting most of the people on this board.

Golly gee, a single tear rolls down my cheek.:rolleyes:



Most of the Libertarians I've met were too busy smoking dope to vote.

Sounds like you're in that same boat.:confused:

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