Long Range .308, what scope to buy?

[PBIR]

Greetings all,

I am wanting to scope my new .308 bolt action for long range competition shooting. I shot rimfire rifles on my college team, now I want to get into something a little harder.

Anyway, I have been mulling over a few mil-dot scopes and I was wondering what those of you with experience would recommend as an entry level (read "college student budget") scope for 600, 800, and 1000 yard competitions. I know cheap is a relative term when it comes to these ranges as $1000 seems to be the median, but any advice is certainly welcome. Thanks in advance!

-P-

[PBIR]

Hmm....no long distance competitors here?

[molonlabe]

A lot depends on the firearm, distance and application. You can't go wrong here http://www.leopoldscopes.com/ go the cost, don't look back and enjoy one of the best for years to come.

[Zak Smith]

I shot a long-range precision rifle field course (175 - 700 yards) this last weekend in Raton, and I've done a bunch of long-range shooting with 50BMG rifles.

At the precision rifle field course, virtually all the scopes were either a: Leupold Mark IV / M1-knob series; or a Nightforce NXS. For the 50's, the Nightforce seems more common. The guy I'm shooting the DL Sports ITRC with this year has a Schmit & Bender on his PSS.

Here are some factors to take into account:

reticle design, including the "width" of the reticle lines. You don't want the crosshairs obscuring your targets at 1000m. This depends on the target size, too. Even the thick mil-dot reticle lines on the Nightforce allow you to aim on a 10" plate at 1000 yards. Mil-dot reticles are nice, but most american scopes use 1/4 MOA clicks on the turrets. It is counter-intuitive to have two angular systems (1mil = about 3.3 MOA). You can get mil knobs on the Nightforce and S&B. Alternatively, there are MOA-based reticles like the Nightforce NPR2, which is nice because it has fine lines.
power. For shooting at "precision" targets, I like atleast 20x for 1000 yards. My 50BMG has the 5.5-22x.
durability, service. I've heard bad things about S&B service, and great things about Leupold service. Nightforce scopes are built like tanks.


My recommendation for a 308 would be a 15x Nightforce NXS, or the Leupold 4.5-14, MKIV, M1, which is what I'm using on my AR10.

You might want to look into what the benchrest guys use, since they have more of a "target" focus than a practical/field focus.

[PBIR]

Thanks guys that's what I was looking for. Both brands were on my short list, just needed some fine tuning for what models to look at.

I come from a military shooting background, and the competitions I am looking at are prone/bag+sock not benchrest so I believe we are on the same page Zak. Thanks

[Zak Smith]

Here are some pictures from that field match last weekend. The guns in my squad were a 308 with a Leupold, a 7RM with a Nightforce, and my AR10 with the Leupold 4.5-14X.

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Precision-Rifle-2004.7.11/small/126_2686_img.jpg [ link to larger image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Precision-Rifle-2004.7.11/?medium=126_2686_img.jpg)
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Precision-Rifle-2004.7.11/small/126_2689_img.jpg [ link to larger image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Precision-Rifle-2004.7.11/?medium=126_2689_img.jpg)
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Precision-Rifle-2004.7.11/small/127_2724_img.jpg [ link to larger image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Precision-Rifle-2004.7.11/?medium=127_2724_img.jpg)

If you can afford the extra few hundred dollars, buy the Nightforce over the comparable Leupold. The Nightforce also has the option of a zero-stop so can mechanically confirm zero and don't have to count hash marks.

Mike Cecil at CSGunWorks.Com has given me great deals and service on optics.. I think I've bought 3 TA11's, one Leu, and one NXS from him.

-z

[PBIR]

Thanks for the info, it's always nice to find a place with people willing to help the new guy. Looks like I'll be needing to get some overtime in at work to offset my scope. Nice rigs at that competition by the way.

-P-

[schromf]

Another scope to add to your short list is the IOR. Just a tad cheaper than the Leupolds. These are quality optics also. I am in the exact same decision mode right now on my 308.

I want to try shooting in the hunter class in benchrest competion. The have some hard rules in this class and on of them is scopes must not be over 6X. WHich means on the higher power scopes you must tape the variable to the 6 power and leave it that way for the match. I was looking @ the Leupolds but the scope that has what I want is a 6.5x20, I wouldn't be able to use it on the lowest setting. The IOR is 6x24.

I really don't like 50mm scopes as the are just too big, and I was looking for a 42mm, but my last range session I was using a 12x scope and realised I would like more magnification power and the 20x range seems to fit that but comes at the cost of all I have seen are 50mm.

I think the Schmidt and Bender, and Kahles options are going to get out of your price range, but both make very good scopes, I think you will find the nightforces are spendy also.

Decent scopes under $1000 seems to be a fairly short list of IOR, Leupold, Burris. The Leupolds have a great no BS warranty, and I have heard the same for Burris. The IOR are warrantied I just haven't heard anyone using them or feedback on how well your are treated.

If I was really looking to save some dollars, give up some magnification, and get a quality tube, I would try the IOR 2.5x10 the cheapest I saw that is for $ 590, but it was on sale and now they are $620. Look here:
http://www.snipercountry.com/px/IOR_Scopes.asp

Another good place to look as they have a wide selection is SWFA, the prices are a little high but the selection saves a lot of time as they cover most of the scope lines in one place.

[srsmith]

EDIT: this is actually Zak Smith. This computer didn't get logged out.

I forgot to mention this before. The amount of elevation adjustment in the scope can be important.

A 308 bullet drops 40-some MOA at 800 yards, with a 100y zero. At 1200 yards, it's about 60 MOA of drop.

If your scope has only 60 minutes of total elevation adjust, and it zeros near the middle of that, you'll only have about 30 MOA of elevation adjustment available. The Nightforce 5.5-22 is popular with 50BMG shooters because it has a full 100 MOA of adjustment, for about 50 "up."

You can add to this number by using an inclined, or tapered, scope base. For example, if the base has 30 MOA built in, then your rifle would be zerod at about 20 MOA up from bottoming out in the scope (for about 50 total), then you'd have a full 80 MOA left for elevation.

-z

[PBIR]

Good stuff, thanks again guys.

-P-

[Steve Smith]

There are quite a few of us who shoot at 600-1000 yards with iron sights, and we do it quite well...why do you need a scope?

[Zak Smith]

Unless freshly painted and well lit, smallish plates are just about imopssible to see past 2-300 yards.

-z

[Andrew Wyatt]

I can second that.

even with a scope, them things are hard to see, especially against an incleared hillside.

[Steve Smith]

I'm sure. However, I SWEAR to you guys, if you will learn to do this without the scope or bipod, you will do much better with. You may do away with the silly bipod altogether. A good solid sitting position will have you as low or lower than with your bipod and you can still see over grass. Alternatively, a solid prone will have you lower as well. All the while you will carry less weight.


Nevermind, you don't care.


Looking at the pics. The first guy is going to get moved every time he fires. If he were more behind the gun he'd be ready for a follow up shot. I think the second guy is you, Zak. You are much better, but try to get even further behind the gun. Not everything falls the first time you hit it.

[Zak Smith]

Just about all of us would benefit from learning the mechanics of better shooting positions. I do prefer to shoot from a ruck, but didn't have one sorted out for that match (I'm the third guy with the AR10).

My only point was that many of the targets we had were just not visible to the naked eye. Last month I shot a 3.5x ACOG at this match and that wasn't enough to ID some of the targets from the background.

-z

[Steve Smith]

Ok, I couldn't tell because I couldn't see faces.

An added advantage with a sling position over a rested postition is that second shot. Whereas a bipod or ruck (a bipod moreso) will allow the rifle to jump under recoil and then possible bounce, a sling "reigns in" the recoil signature and pulls the gun back to it's original position SHARPLY. Speaking from shooting NTIT, you can easily put 30 rounds into a man sized target at 600 yards with iron sights in 50 seconds if your sling method and NPA are good and solid. For you guys, that would equate to a very fast follow up shot, especially the guys who are using auto-shuckers.

[Zak Smith]

I appreciate the advice, Steve. Sling shooting is something I've never really worked on.

[TooTaxed]

About the use of iron sights against telescopic sights: I used to shoot iron sights to 1,000-yd, but not my 68-year old eyes just dont' focus well enough for iron sights!:(

[HankB]

Leupold scopes have a reputation for durability. In the unlikely event you may need service, Leupold has a good reputation there, too.

The few Nightforce scopes I've looked through appeared to be well made, and were clear and bright. Though I can't say whether or not they stay that way through the zoom range.

The IOR optics - scopes and binoculars - I examined were singularly unimpressive. Binoculars all had a yellow cast even AFTER removing the amber filters, as did the scopes. And the reticles and the image could not both be focussed to be sharp simultaneously.

Before ordering anything, I suggest you try hard to look though some examples of the maker's products yourself.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Steve: you do have valid points, but i don't think you fully recognize just how hard the targets are to find outside of a square range. they're round and look like rocks.

[Steve Smith]

Andrew, it's not like I have never shot at round rock looking plates in the woods before. in fact, the range that I PRACTICE to hunt on (yes, I practice to hunt) has small round hard to see steel plates, much like what you guys are shooting! What does that have to do with better positioning? I GAVE you the point that you needed optics in order to see those targets easier...I agree! Poor positioning (especially like the guy in the first pic) shows that the shooter does not understand the mechanics behind what he is doing and the reason he is doing it. We ALL practice so that we are better tools on the field, and to practice as if your first shot is the only one you will fire is foolish.

[700ltr]

I was in this same boat a couple months ago.I ended up putting a leupold 6-18-40mm vx2 with target turrets on my 308. This scope was $439 + tax.I'm happy with it so far.I just shot this past weekend at long range and the scope seemed clear and functioned perfectly as I was turning the knob to change my setting from 200m to 500m and every thing in between.I did run out of adjustment for the 1000 yrd target.There were not any targets between 500 and a thousand so I don't know what yardage my scope adjustment ran out at.Something I'll have to find out though, guess that I'll tell my wife thats why I need to go shooting again this weekend.

[Houndawg]

What do the guys who shoot NRA Long Range and compete for the Wimbledon Cup use? I just got done reading "Marine Sniper" and Hathcock used a scope (on a Model 70) when he won in '65.

[goalie]

Care to tell us just how many trophies are given out to matches that allow scopes compared to those matches that use irons?









;)

[Zak Smith]

Lots of high-dollar gear is given away at IPSC matches, and they have the MOR class.

-z

[Steve Smith]

Zak, my friendly counterpoint is that we don't do it for the monetary awards. We do it for what those trophies mean.

[Zak Smith]

Fair enough. I wasn't sure what goalie was getting at.

-z

[goalie]

Fair enough. I wasn't sure what goalie was getting at.

I was basically rhetorically asking how many matches at Perry use a scope. I was not making a statement about the prizes, just the fact that you can shoot dozens of different matches at the national matches every year without a scope, and if you only shoot with a scope, well...........

[Andrew Wyatt]

National matches bear little resemblance to actual combat.


Field rifle events are considerably better in that regard.

[goalie]

National matches bear little resemblance to actual combat.


I was replying to someone specifically mentioning the national matches with this post:

What do the guys who shoot NRA Long Range and compete for the Wimbledon Cup use? I just got done reading "Marine Sniper" and Hathcock used a scope (on a Model 70) when he won in '65.

I fully understand the use of a riflescope as an aid to long-range shooting. I also fully understand the importance of a good, solid, repeatable shooting position as well. I have seen what a stock, off the rack M16 can do with irons at 600 meters on a windy day with the right Marine on the trigger. Steve Smith has a very valid point that if one learns to shoot accurately at long range with iron sights, the things learned will have huge benefits when transferred over to shooting with a scope.

You can never be too good at the basics.

[Steve Smith]

Add to that that a large majority of Marine snipers have been gleaned from the Highpower ranks and its value becomes more apparent. Learning to use an upgraded service rifle very well, at distance, with iron sights makes one much deadlier when equipped with a point-and-shoot.

[insidious_calm]

What loads are you using in your AR-10? Is that an AR-10T or something custom? Looks like a different barrel than my 10T. Anyone you know have successful results with handloads using Hornady's 178gr. Molly AMAX? I am considering trying to load some of my own match stuff and am looking for a recommended load to start with.



Thanks,

I.C.

[Zak Smith]

IC,

My AR10 was built by JP Enterprises, so it uses their "lightweight" barrel. 20".

The only handloads I've shot in this rifle are 125gr Ballistic Tips. It shoots FGMM 168 very well so I've been sticking with that.

Most people I know shooting 308 use either BH168, BH175, or equivalent handloads using the SMK. If I were to load match 308, I'd stick with the standard accuracy loads and bullets that everyone else uses... it usually saves a lot of R&D time, and then I can make the small adjustments (OAL & charge) for my rifle.

-z

[molonlabe]

Well I didn't follow my own advice but I purchased this for 418.00. Missed the sale.
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/430426

The optics are impressive and as clear and as sharp as my variX II. It's packed with features found on scopes twice as much. If your on a budget then this may be the way to go. I will mount it this weekend and give a report in a couple of weeks if you like. The sale ends end of Sept.

Additional info
The front of the scope is 54.3mm because of the parallax adjustment ring. Keep in mind when replacing scope rings. I intend to lap the rings this weekend and it’s going on a M77 MarkIIVT in .308.

[molonlabe]

I was able to push 1/2 moa from the Ruger M77 MarkIIVT this weekend. I'm sure it can probably do better. The scope was consistent with 1/8 in increments, repeatable and clear. I think it is the best purchase I have made this year. You said you were on a budget which seemed to be lost in the thread so I don't think you can go wrong with this scope. I did lap the rings and I was surprised with this day of CNC machines how poor the Ruger rings were. I had about 20% contact on the lower rings and I worked about three hours to achieve 80~ 85 % contact. All in all it was a good range day. I give this scope 4 stars.