Examples of Registration leading to Confiscation


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ReadyontheRight
July 13, 2004, 11:48 PM
Please post your examples of firearms registration leading to confiscation.

In this thread,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1116587#post1116587

it is pointed out that it was the Wiemar Republic, not the Nazis who required registration of firearms in Germany after WW1.

Regardless of who implemented this registration scheme, the Nazis used it to disarm Jews and other "undesirables".

Let's compile a list of all places where registration has led to confiscation of firearms. Use it whenever anyone even mentions registration.

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ClonaKilty
July 14, 2004, 12:06 AM
See my post in this thread for confiscation in the US:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87866&highlight=M96

whm1974
July 14, 2004, 03:33 AM
The people's republics of ********** and NYC did some confiscation.

-Bill

cuchulainn
July 14, 2004, 07:48 AM
The Aussies and the Brits.

HankB
July 14, 2004, 08:14 AM
I don't have the details (sorry) but I seem to remember that Cleveland had some sort of registration & confiscation program for "saturday night specials" back in the 70's . . . .

tfurey19
July 14, 2004, 11:40 AM
Its really nothing new here. Your permit expires or is accidentally canceled (or maliciously cancelled) and 6 heavily armed NYPD officers show up at your house. This is common practice and I know several people who have had this happen to them.

More recently the ATF has been getting hold of 4473s from Long Island gun dealers and is going door to door looking for anyone from NYC who purchased a gun in the last year and has an Arab sounding last name. I must say that the BATF has been a lot friendlier than the NYPD in their door to door visits.

This is fact.

Sam Adams
July 14, 2004, 12:12 PM
NYC registered long guns circa 1966, promising 7 ways to Sunday that it was only to be able to trace crime guns, not for confiscation. Along comes David Dinkins, NY's worst mayor in living memory (and that says a LOT), who decided in 1991 to ban "assault weapons." Everyone who registered in '66 with a semi-auto got a letter telling them to either sell it, get the gun out of the city, destroy it (and prove it), or risk getting a knock on the door. My understanding is that quite a few people got the knock, and had to surrender their firearms. So much for trusting government.

Of course, the primary example is Germany. Yes, Weimar Germany registered the guns, but when the Nazis came into power, they had a bunch of neat and orderly (they were Germans, after all!) lists of gun owners and their guns. Needless to say, any on the list who weren't Nazis very soon thereafter became former gun owners (and, in some cases, former people). The same thing happened in Austria when the Germans took over, as well as in several other gun-phobic countries in Europe.

Waiting to see what happens in Kanuckistan....

Lord Grey Boots
July 14, 2004, 03:37 PM
There are many documented cases of this occuring in Canada as well.

dustind
July 14, 2004, 05:49 PM
It has happened in California, Austrailia, New York, Canada, Britian, I think maybe in Washington DC. I also think parts kits have been seized by the ATF from private persons, I am not positive though.

1911Tuner
July 14, 2004, 06:03 PM
Ever wonder about your CCW permit being a two-sided coin?

pinblaster
July 14, 2004, 07:53 PM
The 2A should be your CCW permit .

1911Tuner
July 14, 2004, 08:05 PM
pinblaster said:

The 2A should be your CCW permit .


Now THAT's the spirit! Welcome to THR pinblaster...I like the way you think.

The Second Amendment says that we have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. I read that as..."Own and Carry"...and it doesn't specify how that
those arms may be kept and carried, nor does it specify any difference between military and sporting arms...

Salute!

Tuner

GeneC
July 14, 2004, 08:29 PM
Pinblaster said: "The 2A should be your CCW permit ."


A generalized blanket statement like that could never stand. So, including felons, sociopaths, psychopaths,drug addicts and mentally deranged? The 2A means ALL people, right?

ReadyontheRight
July 14, 2004, 08:31 PM
Ever wonder about your CCW permit being a two-sided coin?

Yup! And as we have all seen in minnesota -- it just takes one judge legislating from the bench to change the world.

pinblaster
July 14, 2004, 08:32 PM
Thank you Tuner , it's the ONLY way to think . Salute returned !

pinblaster
July 14, 2004, 08:43 PM
Gene C. at the present time I am unable to respond to your post in a manner that would be considered polite . Au reviour (that's French , you know)

whm1974
July 15, 2004, 04:43 AM
A generalized blanket statement like that could never stand. So, including felons, sociopaths, psychopaths,drug addicts and mentally deranged? The 2A means ALL people, right?

A felon is someone who broke a law, ilregardless if that law should be on the books or not. Define sociopath, psychopath, and mentally deranged. Some shrinks will define desire to own guns as deranged. And the last, are you saying that someone who smokes or drinks cola soda shouldn't be allowed to own guns?

-Bill

Wildalaska
July 15, 2004, 04:54 AM
Gene, try not to be reasonable, it offends the absolutists who just cover their ears and eyes and make a lot of noise.

Besides, your on a "GUN" Board...that means you must "OBEY" the holy scripture..."Anybody can own and carry anything at anytime becasue its a right"..if ya dont absolutely agree with this, you commit "THOUGHTCRIME" and, you are a "traitor" who will be "HUNG" when we war against the JBTs who seek to usurp our rights......

Almost like going to a Stalinist web site!

WildandnowtheflamesbeginAlaska

GeneC
July 15, 2004, 05:30 AM
Ahhh, frenchy, that explains alot.


Yeah, I guess it's too much thought process to make the connection between a generalized concept and the laws it takes to actually make it happen in a free and diversified culture. I don't know, but in my state, the 2A DOES translate into a CCW.

RooK
July 15, 2004, 05:48 AM
Thought I might add, registration is allowed by the 2nd Amendment. Basicly, it's just the cataloging of firearms and their owners. If it was used in such a way, there would be fewer firearm crimes and with a properly running database, crimes committed with firearms could be solved at a quicker pace.

Now that some people are gasping for air... The reality is, it won't work and the various local governments have turned it into a means of restrictions on civilian ownership. Add to this the fact that the government doesn't know how to run a properly made database (otherwise there wouldn't be incorrect background check denials) and you have a time bomb waiting to happen. It all comes down to trust, and the government seems to have lost that a long time ago by abusing the system.

BTW, anyone know the legalities involved in charging for ccw permit or any other fees related to firearms? They passed an amendment against charging for voting since it was a constitutional right, how is charging $200 for a tax stamp or $50 for a ccw any different?

1911Tuner
July 15, 2004, 08:35 AM
The quote:
_____________________

A generalized blanket statement like that could never stand. So, including felons, sociopaths, psychopaths,drug addicts and mentally deranged? The 2A means ALL people, right?
____________________

And lets have a show of hands from all who believe that the lack of a CCW permit would prevent felons, sociopaths, drug addicts and mentally deranged people from carrying concealed weapons...

I think that the "Shall Issue" provision should be "Shall not Refuse to Issue on Demand" for all those who apply, provided that there is no record of
any of the above, nor any outward sign that any mental derangement or substance abuse is noted by the issuing agent. If you qualify for a pistol permit, and show that you have completed a training course, the CCW permit should be issued on the spot for the 5-dollar background check fee. I also believe that a permit issued in one state should be honored in all states and U.S. territories...and it should be kept at state level. Federal
fingerprint checks don't need to state a reason or a name for the check,
nor do nationwide criminal history checks.

Cheers!

Tuner

316SS
July 15, 2004, 09:01 AM
Alaska/GeneC-

I believe it was Yogi Berra who said "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

My point? Look at those states which do not require a permit to carry a handgun, to see if gangs of foaming-mouthed drug addicted sociopsychopaths are terrorizing the population. Vermont is one. Isn't there another?

Notwithstanding "being reasonable," if it works, it works.

Regards,

316SS

Molon Labe
July 15, 2004, 09:13 AM
I understand registration has led to "turn-'em-in" letters in PRK and NY. But I am skeptical of claims the police or ATF have conducted door-to-door searches or inquiries strictly based on registration.

Justin
July 15, 2004, 09:30 AM
Gene- A felon, by definition, is someone whose civil rights have been suspended because of a crime they committed. In other words, committing a felony means an automatic suspension of your civil rights.


Yeah, Wildyouradherealaska, we're just a bunch of kneejerk reactionaries incapable of thinking for ourselves. I'm so glad you're here to shine your wonderful beam of sanctimonious enlightenment on us all.

whm1974
July 15, 2004, 10:36 AM
Gene- A felon, by definition, is someone whose civil rights have been suspended because of a crime they committed. In other words, committing a felony means an automatic suspension of your civil rights.

Actully that should read as: "A felon by definition is someone whose civil rights have been suspended because of a LAW they have broken. Committing a crime and breaking a law are two diffente things.

I commit a crime when I voliate the rights of a fellow citizen, such as stealing from him or attacking him. Now is owning a post-ban standerd magazine a crime? Whose's rights will you voliate by having one?

-Bill

Justin
July 15, 2004, 07:10 PM
whm1974-

I don't disagree with you in the least, but that's really a complete discussion in and of itself.

:)

GeneC
July 15, 2004, 08:02 PM
You know , it's real easy to sit at your computer and solve the problems of the cyberspace world, but all these solutions are NOT in the context of real life. Now, just for gits and shiggles, imagine for a moment , tomorrow when you open your eyes, all you see is white , except for the black suits around you. " What happened?", you ask( as an excrutiating sharp pain shoots thru your body every time you try to talk, take a deep breath or try to move). "Where am I?" "Who are you guys?" A stern , hard individual says,"Don't worry Mr President, you're fine." You say, "WHAT?!" He says,"Calm down, Mr. President, you been shot, but you'll be ok. Seems a mentally disturbed individual walked into a gun store and bought a gun and shot you ." You say, " But how is this possible? You mean to tell me a mentally disturbed person can just walk into any gun store and buy a gun, no questions asked?" He says, "Yes Sir, 'cause some folKs on THR feels like the 2a means ANYBODY should be able to get a gun with NO hassles at all, as long as they weren't convicted of any crimes, they don't feel like they should be checked or delayed at all." If you's the one laying there with that bullet wound, what'd you do?

GeneC
July 15, 2004, 08:08 PM
wmd said: "I commit a crime when I voliate the rights of a fellow citizen, such as stealing from him or attacking him. Now is owning a post-ban standerd magazine a crime? Whose's rights will you voliate by having one?"



WMD, you're holding that someone ONLY commits a crime if they violate someone else's rights, but unfortunately , that's not realistic. The fact is, you commit a crime when you break a law, whatever it may be. During the prohibition, you committed a crime if you sold/bought alcohol, something that wasn't a crime (or a law)earlier, or later.

wasrjoe
July 15, 2004, 08:27 PM
The word "strawman" comes to mind for some reason.

pinblaster
July 15, 2004, 08:36 PM
Yup

GeneC
July 15, 2004, 08:47 PM
Wasrjoe, frenchy, imagine if you will, you 've worked at your prespective professions for X years and all those years you've been interested in guns and always dreamed of one day owning your own gun store, so you've scratched and saved and filled out forms and payed fees and endured this check and that check and jumped thru this hoop and that hoop and FINALLY got your liscence to sell guns and one day this yahoo SLIMEBALL comes in with a kid and says," Yeah, I wanna buy THIS, NO, THAT GUN FOR(mmmmmmmmmmm) MYSELF." All the hairs on the back of yer neck is stiff. Whatchagonna do ? Now remember ,some folks on THR DEMANDS that the 2A demands that you sell to them, NO MATTER what.

pinblaster
July 15, 2004, 09:05 PM
Gene , you really are a HOOT :D . BTW I'm not really French (I thought maybe you were) , but you can call me frenchy if you like , it's cool :cool: .

wasrjoe
July 15, 2004, 09:45 PM
So you are suggesting laws against creepy looking people buying guns?

DevilDog
July 16, 2004, 12:18 PM
There's an idea... don't sell firearms to creepy looking people... or people who may be buying it for someone else (even though they sign a federal form stating otherwise)... or anyone else who likes like they aren't safe... or anyone who the merchant thinks is mentally unstable... or anyone who looks like they may rob a store with it. :rolleyes:

Yes, the 2A means everyone who can legally buy a gun, should be able to, without prejudice or subjective judgement by the seller. To do otherwise would be discriminatory. Once you allow a merchant to not sell to someone because they are "creepy", then one day, a merchant won't sell to someone who looks like an Arab. The path to prejudice and discrimination is often paved with good intentions.

Every year, around 20k people are killed in cars on US highways. Why are we allowing just about anyone to drive? Something is wrong here! Why are car dealers selling cars to creepy people who are obviously not going to be safe drivers?

I hope the above analogy is obvious. And driving a car is not a right, not explicitly defined in an amendment, nor implied anywhere in the constitution as an inherit right. Being able to protect yourself from an oppressive government is a right.

I have known a lot more people killed by cars (usually with alcohol involved) and I do not promote the idea of banning them, increasing restrictions on driving, etc.

DRZinn
July 16, 2004, 08:23 PM
Here I must disagree. While it is no business of the government who is buying guns or which, I, as a merchant, have the right NOT to sell an object with a great potential for harm to someone who I believe will use it to cause harm.

None of the gummint's bizness who I sell to or DON'T sell to. (As long as they're not violent felons or insane.) If you're creepy-lookin' and I don't sell to you, go to another store.

ReadyontheRight
July 16, 2004, 10:33 PM
Please bring this post back to the topic.

Where has registration of guns led to confiscation?

In know it's happened in many places and under many regimes worldwide.

If you don't agree that gun registration leads to confiscation, I really do not want your opinion. Go start some new thread about how the chains rest nice and lightly upon you. We seek neither your council nor your arms.

I want us all to be able to communicate the details of how gun registration leads to confiscation.

Phil Ca
July 17, 2004, 06:40 PM
In Vietnam in early part of 1966 the First Infantry Division had an amnesty for "unregistered" personal firearms and then within 60 days or less demanded them to be turned in. My S&W Centennial 5 shot revolver was locked in the field safe in the CP until I shipped home some monthes later.

I did get an exception when I was asked to drive a cargo truck to our HQ in Di An for supplies on a convoy. There were not enough drivers and I was to be the only driver on one truck. I made a deal with the 1st Sgt. so I could carry my revolver on the trip. I argued that I could not handle my M14 rifle and a truck at the same time. When he hesitated I started to back out of the driving part and he decided he did need me after all. I carried the revolver in a small canvas case in my upper right jungle fatigue pocket. The trip was w/o incident and the first shirt and I were the only ones that knew I had it with me.

When we were ordered to register the firearms I brought up the Weimar Republik and the Nazi confiscations when they entered countries as an argument that "Registration leads to Confiscation". It fell on deaf ears.

GeneC
July 18, 2004, 06:40 AM
OMG, let's repeal registering cars, they might confiscate them, or registering apliances, they might come and take them too, or registering our children in school , they might come and take them too. Yes I'm being facetious, 'cause this whole idea is rediculous. You can't compare what other Countries do, 'cause it ain't the US. At best you have a couple of examples of local Govt getting out of hand( yes, NYC is only local govt), but that's it. Relax.

GeneC
July 18, 2004, 06:55 AM
And lets have a show of hands from all who believe that the lack of a CCW permit would prevent felons, sociopaths, drug addicts and mentally deranged people from carrying concealed weapons...

I think that the "Shall Issue" provision should be "Shall not Refuse to Issue on Demand" for all those who apply, provided that there is no record of
any of the above, nor any outward sign that any mental derangement or substance abuse is noted by the issuing agent. If you qualify for a pistol permit, and show that you have completed a training course, the CCW permit should be issued on the spot for the 5-dollar background check fee. I also believe that a permit issued in one state should be honored in all states and U.S. territories...and it should be kept at state level. Federal
fingerprint checks don't need to state a reason or a name for the check,
nor do nationwide criminal history checks.

Cheers!

Tuner



You know, I've had my weapons confiscated and stolen, but it was because they were registered that they were returned. Tuner, what'd that $5 background check consist of? How far should the check go, local? State? nationwide? How did you determine $5? Things that make ya go hmm...


__________________

1911Tuner
July 18, 2004, 07:35 AM
Started to skip over this one, but on second thought...

You know, I've had my weapons confiscated and stolen, but it was because they were registered that they were returned.
________________________

I've had the same experience on two occasions, and they were also returned. Registration has nothing to do with it. I reported them stolen,
and when they were found, they were returned. Neither one was "registered" until they were on file as reported stolen. The NCIC
check hit when the thief tried to pawn the guns in a neighboring state.
Of course, if he had decided to sell them on the street, neither the serial numbers nor registration would have gotten them back to me.
_______________________



Tuner, what'd that $5 background check consist of? How far should the check go, local? State? nationwide?
____________________________-

It matters not...as long as the information is kept at the local level. A
law enforcement agency can check your background all the way to
Washington DC on demand. There's no need to state a specific reason or put your personal information on a "list" to do so unless you're the target of a criminal investigation or arrest warrant.

How did you determine $5? Things that make ya go hmm.
______________________-

Because the amount of time required to punch in your information is the
same, whether it stays at county level or it ties into a national database.
It might take longer to get the results on a national level, but the computer does the work. Why SHOULD it cost more than 5 dollars? Because it's
another hidden tax...perhaps? For that matter...why should it cost anything? The government is there to serve US...not the other way around.


Other things that make ya go "hmmmm"...

Turning a right into a privelege makes ME go hmmmm. So does forcing me
to pay through the nose for it. So does making me wait for 60 or 90 days
for a CCW permit when I check out clean as Kleenex in five minutes or less. I've had background checks called in from a store for a long gun purchase that came back good before I could finish filling out the 4473 form. Why the wait? So somebody can figure a way to say "no" to my application? It happens, and the reasons are never given.

Having to pay 20 dollars for a license plate sticker that costs a dime
when my already ridiculous state, sales, gasoline and city/county property taxes are supposed to cover my "Highway Use" fees. Another hidden tax.
The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Thre are numerous examples of registration leading to confiscation in this country...I don't give a damn if it IS local. Siezure of legally owned property without due process is a police state tactic...and those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

But...do carry on.

Cheers!

Tuner

Art Eatman
July 18, 2004, 10:24 AM
Basically, in all countries where registration has been made a requirement, confiscation has followed. For those where confiscation has yet to occur, my opinion is that it's a only matter of time. My reasoning is simple: The registration is touted as a method of reducing crime or "gun violence". The reduction doesn't occur. The next step, of course, is confiscation. The ensuing result is an increase in crime. Some of the crime is from the conventional sort of criminal. More occurs by misuse of governmental power, as was shown in the 20th century with Germany as one of the more notable examples.

If one bothers to read the Federalist and the Anti-Federalist Papers' writings, there is in the latter a comment to the effect that the right to bear arms should be denied to those "of ill repute or unsound mind". "Absolutism" in re the Second Amendment does not include these two groups, so that particular straw-man argument can be laid to rest. ("Ill repute" possibly is more inclusive than today's "felon"; I dunno. But that's the thinking of those who wrote the Second Amendment.)

Art

1911Tuner
July 18, 2004, 11:39 AM
Okay...The man asked for examples, and we've hijacked his thread.

One need only look around. New York...Chicago...Some little
community in Illinois whose name escapes me at the moment...
Oak Grove? I forget. Got a "bad" rifle in certain states or townships? Get rid of it, turn it in, or move away. Either way, it's gone. Some legitimate
handguns aren't "approved" for sale in certain states. How long will it be
until they're illegal to possess? Get rid of it, turn it in, or move away.

Take a close look at the other side of the "Domestic Voilence" law.
To be sure, it's stopped a good many tragedies in a good many households...but consider the other side of the coin, and the potential
that it carries. For one, it's retroactive. Had a cuss-fight with your
wife or parents that got a little physical and is long-forgotten? It can
come back to haunt you even if it never went to court...and has for many people. For the first time, people are being penalized for what they MIGHT do based on what they did years ago and were never convicted of a crime
as a result of that incident. How long will it be until your driver's license is revoked because of a reckless driving conviction that you got when you were a teenager? After all...you might decide to drive a hundred miles per hour again sometime. You did it once!

You bought a hunting rifle two years ago. You and your brother get into
a fist-fight and somebody calls the cops to break it up. Yes! Brothers
fight sometimes...sometimes viciously. Guess what? You can kiss your deer rifle good-bye. I know of three people that it's happened to.

Police officers are losing their jobs over one incident that occured years before they even became police officers...because they can't carry their sidearms any more. Sometimes over things that happened when they were still in their teens. Domestic violence. I know one guy who got into a fight with his cousin in his aunt's home when he was 18. She called the cops to intervene...charges were pressed for Simple Assault and later dropped. 25 years later, he was notified to surrender all firearms in compliance with the Domestic Violence Act. It took him a while to even remember the fight.

Just because blanket confiscation isn't a reality...yet...doesn't mean that it's
not happening every day of the year to somebody. Your liberties aren't
taken in one bite. It comes in nibbles...and when you've grown used to
being nipped at...Chomp! End of story.

Registration is leading to confiscation in this country every day. It will
become more commonplace as more laws and provisions are enacted.

Luck!

Tuner

Phil Ca
July 21, 2004, 11:28 AM
All of you that have a CCW should consider the fact that the very firearms you list on your CCW will someday be subject to confiscation.

If you use a range that requires you to log in the firearm you are using to practice with will probably go the same route.

Battler
July 21, 2004, 11:41 AM
Someone on this thread referred to someone who doesn't think it should be illegal for anyone to carry anything as an "Absolutist".

Well, I refer to such people ("pro gun" people) as incrementalists. You don't make up gun laws ("anti-gun" people do) but you defend them as gospel after they're in place.

The prohibition on felons owning guns was in 1968. Don't recall any pro-gun people pushing for that; but the people who wanted guns banned sure did. And now 30 years later "pro gun" people are defending it.

If the same people were worried about felons owning guns they may not be trying so damned hard to get them to be able to vote (having payed their debt to society and all).

Wake up. Creating prohibited classes of people is just a ruse to justify registration, and to expand the classes of prohibited people.


:banghead:

Art Eatman
July 21, 2004, 12:30 PM
"The prohibition on felons owning guns was in 1968."

Battler, as I posted above, the concept was taken for granted by those who wrote the Second Amendment.

Art

sigma
July 21, 2004, 02:44 PM
Has anyone seen the video Innocents Betrayed (http://www.jpfo.org/ib.htm) ? It looks like it shows lots of examples....

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