The Glock 40K


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horge
July 14, 2004, 03:02 AM
Quoting an acquaintance of mine (Alexii) on another board...

"(We) also chanced upon the Glock representative from Hongkong and told him of our collective concerns about their brand. Concerns like breechface failures, the E-series hysteria, and dryfiring. He said that Glock only warrants 40k rounds for their pistols and dryfiring is included (!) It seems he has heard these complaints before as he had ready answers off the top of his head."

Now, isn't 40K cycles a mite too few if you're talking about major structural failure in a full-size firearm approved for LE use? Glocks are common in cycle-hungry competition, yes?

I've used Glock as an example, but I'm not looking to start a Glock-bash.
I'm just trying to get an idea of what an acceptable 'lifespan' --for the sake of definition, the number of cycles before a pistol is expected to sustain wear-damage requiring major repair-- is for most THR'ers and full-size pistol users in general




horge

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Powderman
July 14, 2004, 06:27 AM
Only warranted for 40K rounds? That's news to me.

I have heard about 9mm Glocks with well over 100K rounds through them, still running strong.

warrior23
July 14, 2004, 01:39 PM
I have a G-19 with 75k thu it still going strong(all Fac ammo).Only failure was a broken slide lock spring,replaced for free.

denfoote
July 14, 2004, 05:12 PM
Perhaps he speaks of the number of rounds wherein Glock believes it's prudent to change out springs and such. I'm just trying to give the guy a break. Maybe one of the legion of Glock armorers can chime in at this point!! :D

horge
July 14, 2004, 07:11 PM
:)


The extent in time of a manufacturer's willingness to warrant against major structural failure indicates just about when they believe such failures become distinct possibilities. Even springs cost money, and yes, replacing those ought to fall under 'structural component failure':

When your weapon fails to function in time of need,
it's no comfort to know that "oh, it's just the spring that gave out".

As I said, I'm honestly not out to start a Glock-bashing session.
You've already added to the number of Glock examples I know that have exceeded 40K without structural failure. Nevertheless, Glock reps have indicated a cutoff point at which they believe normal use significantly may begin to induce such failures.

It struck me as a bit small, the figure of 40,000 op cycles (including dryfire pulls!), but I'm just a newb and I'm asking ---is 40,000 not too few? I'm not really questioning the pistols' durability, so much as I'm questioning the thinking behind Glock's warranty.

A pistol, like say, the Bersa Thunder 380 may have as little as 12,000-15,000 live cycles in it before structural failure of major components becomes a distinct possibility (I'm not familiar with Bersa's US warranty terms), but run only as short as 2,500 cycles before a new recoil spring starts looking like a good investment.

Even the vaunted, forged-steel 1911 has its cutoff date: all those hallowed tales of USGI pistols lasting through several wars is a false example --those badboys largely went to the armorer for refit several times over their service life, suggesting repeated wear-out after X number of cycles: in other words, repeated structural failure.

Just how many total cycles is acceptable, anyway?
For a service weapon?
For a home defense weapon?

--before ANY parts failure?
--before major-part failure?

Opinions will vary, and so I (apparently, clumsily) asked for those opinions.


:)
horge

sundance43.5
July 15, 2004, 03:10 PM
Somebody is feeding you a line.

In the latest Glock annual, which is a magazine marketed for and by Glock and is an official magazine of their's, there is a lenthy article by Chuck Taylor about his Glock 17 with almost 200,000 rounds through it.

Nowhere in the article does this number of 40,000, or any number for that matter come up about the service life of a Glock.

I doubt Glock would allow this article if they expected only 40,000 round life for their guns.

Most service pistols are only GUARANTEED to last 15-20,000 rounds anyway.

I have serious doubts that a GLOCK REP told someone this 40,000 number.

Many people with well over that amount have sent their gun to Glock for springs, an examination, etc. and Glock has fixed them for free, something I doubt they would do if the gun was over their supposed 40,000 round "warranty".

sundance43.5
July 15, 2004, 03:12 PM
BTW, dry-firing has probably the minutest effect on the "structural integrity" of the gun.

A cycle for dry-firing doesn't even come close to the abuse a gun takes every time it is live-fired.

jc2
July 15, 2004, 03:22 PM
Despite Chuck Taylor's Glock 17, 40, 000 round sound about right for a Glock 17--I would expect it would be somewhat lower for a Glock 22 or Glock 31.

The figure quoted would be based on "Mean Rounds Before Failure" (MRBF), and most manufacturers have a pretty good idea what that figure is. I would guess that's number they would quote to LEAs and other major purchasers. The key, of course, is that it is a mean (average).--some may actually experience problems considerably before reaching that number, and others (maybe like Taylor's) may go well beyond that number without any serious problems.

horge
July 15, 2004, 05:51 PM
So 15-20K live cycles is the expected/required lifetime of most service pistols?
Thanks.

I doubt anyone was feeding ME a line, sundance :)
I will however allow for a miscommunication betwen my acquaintance and the Glock rep, and even allow for a new policy on warranties only now announced. Who knows?

Big difference between a mag article and an actual Glock warranty :)
I'm quite aware that there's a big difference as well, stresswise between live and dry cycles --that is WHY it surprised me that dry cycles were supposedly included --the main reason I can think of why it would be, is breechface abuse (striker-shoulder impact sans snap-cap or dummy round)?

auschip
July 15, 2004, 06:05 PM
I wish someone would show me the round counter that Glock has so craftily hidden in my 27. I want to see if I can't flip the odometer so to speak. :D

horge
July 15, 2004, 06:19 PM
"But Gaston, I only pulled the trigger 39,999 times! I'm still covered, right?"

"Son, check the secret odometer ---we test fired it thrice before sending it to retail,
and who knows how many peple fondled the trigger there!"

:D

horge
July 15, 2004, 06:19 PM
That odometer would change the face of the second hand market too!
:)

Rockstar
July 16, 2004, 10:35 AM
Three possibilities: (1) The Glock rep in Hong Kong didn't know what he was talking about. (Didn't even make sense! How would a manufacturer impose a total fired stipulation on a warranty? That's silly!) (2) The Glock rep was lying. (3) Somebody else is lying.

jc2
July 16, 2004, 12:02 PM
No, there is a more likely explanation.

The 40,000 is probably the MRBF they use for large contract purchases, and after 40,000 rounds is reached, problems become the purhcaser's not Glock's. For example, I doubt very seriously that when Glock sold the NYPD roughly 24,000 Glock 19s, they gave the NYPD an uncoditional lifetime guarantee. More than likely (because it is how it's done), they told the NYPD the Glocks would be good for 40,000 rounds (or some other similar figure).

There is undoubtedly some miscommunication, but I don't think anybody was lying (and I don't think you have foggiest notion what you're talking about).

mrapathy2000
July 16, 2004, 02:12 PM
bingo contract. what does jc2 win today bob? what fancy object will ladies showcase for the winner.

sundance43.5
July 17, 2004, 10:45 AM
Yes, but the original poster said that the 40,000 includes hand-cycling, dry-firing, AND live rounds.

If that is true, which I doubt it is, then a police gun COULD reach that count very quickly.

If it is 40,000 ROUNDS before failure, I could understand that. It's still WAY above other guns.

Sig is around 20,000, Beretta is 20-25,000, etc. Just a matter of sheer opinion, but the Glock does seem to run longer than other pistols, in which case, these numbers would be pretty accurate as an average.

Mylhouse
July 17, 2004, 11:30 AM
Chuck Taylor is full of crap. And this coming from a huge Glock fan.

Rockstar
July 17, 2004, 03:51 PM
"No, there is a more likely explanation.

The 40,000 is probably the MRBF they use for large contract purchases, and after 40,000 rounds is reached, problems become the purhcaser's not Glock's. For example, I doubt very seriously that when Glock sold the NYPD roughly 24,000 Glock 19s, they gave the NYPD an uncoditional lifetime guarantee. More than likely (because it is how it's done), they told the NYPD the Glocks would be good for 40,000 rounds (or some other similar figure)."

Interesting theory, but patently incorrect. Glock will repair any Glock, whether to sold to an l.e. agency, or not, forever, free.

Back to the "doesn't make sense"!!!! Exactly how does Glock determine that a pistol has been dryfired or live fired "X" times?? Any "interesting theories" on that?? :) I'd like to make a friendly challenge for anybody to post a copy of a warranty from any firearms manufacturer that mentions the number of rounds fired and/or dryfired.

jc2
July 17, 2004, 07:10 PM
Glock will repair any Glock, whether to sold to an l.e. agency, or not, forever, free.
And you speak for (and obligate) Glock, Inc.--particularly in the matter of large agency contracts/purchases? What exactly is your connection to Glock, Inc., and are you speaking in an official capacity? --or are you just full BS?

mrapathy2000
July 17, 2004, 07:31 PM
wonder if the pistols have special serial number or stamping to indicate the contract purchase.

JohnKSa
July 17, 2004, 07:55 PM
What exactly is your connection to Glock, Inc., and are you speaking in an official capacity or privately? --or are you just full BS? Common knowledge that Glock provides armorers at Glock matches. Parts and labor on repairs are free--there are no questions about how much you've shot or dryfired the gun, and even very old Glocks are cheerfully repaired for free. They don't even check to see if you're entered in the match. Even if you call that a special case, it's indicative of Glock's committment to its customers.

In cases where an individual buyer returned a gun to the factory, the only times I've heard of Glock charging for repairs was in cases where there was obvious abuse. Even then any charges are usually deeply discounted.

It's kind of hard to imagine that large purchase contracts would be more restricted than individual purchases. That's not the way it works in the rest of the business world. The more you buy, the better the service you get and the better the price. It's a rare manufacturer that penalizes those who purchase in bulk...

Besides, Rockstar nailed it. How could Glock ever enfoce a 40K warranty limit?
Customer: Nope, my gun had only 39,999 rounds through it when it broke.
Glock: Sorry, our forensic mechanical engineering consultant (who charges us $120 an hour) spent a half a day analyzing this gun and says that it has definitely had 40,013 rounds fired through it.
Even if it were possible for Glock to accurately make such a statement, the cost of the analysis would outweight the cost of replacing the pistol for free.

Furthermore I seem to recall someone arguing quite vociferously that Glock's cost for a typical pistol is around $40 or $50. Again, it's hard to imagine that they'd alienate a customer (especially a large purchaser) when they could turn the customer with the broken gun into an avid Glock advocate by spending $50 bucks.

jc2
July 17, 2004, 08:33 PM
wonder if the pistols have special serial number or stamping to indicate the contract purchase.
You can be pretty sure Glock has very good idea of the range of serial numbers involved in large contract purchases--and yes, quite often, large purchases have a special range of serial numbers (usually at the purchaser's request).

Evidently some do not understand what a MRBF is. It is not a specifically a "pass/fail" number or even a warranty number in the strictest sense. It is a number that provides the purchaser an estimated life expectancy of the weapon (and FWIW, manufacturers tend to err on the cautious side--i. e., set the number low) because you certainly don't want to start having problems before the customer reaches MRBF, and also, it gives the user an idea it's time to time to start looking for replacements (i. e., a new purchase).

Glock can, and does, provide fairly good support for its individual customers most of the time. That is not in question, but their "bread and butter" are large military and LE contracts--the individual purchases are truly "small potatoes," but you can bet they don't offer lifetime, unconditional, free maintenance, repair and relpacement clauses in their contracts (unlike Rockster evidently believes)--and everything wears out some time. Glock, and every other manufacturer, can and will provide large customers MRBFs--and also it is specified in the contract. That's just how business is done. FWIW, if 40,000 rounds is the MRBF, it is a very good MRBF (and expect for the Glock 17--not necessarily the 22 and 31).

C. H. Luke
August 1, 2004, 03:38 PM
"Chuck Taylor is full of crap. And this coming from a huge Glock fan."

Have seen Chuck's 185K+ G17 many times and know his ability to keep sound professional documentation & evaluation on its progress thru {an initially unintended} long-term test.
BTW, the only ammo thru it has been full-power +P+ or the equivilent.

Think you need to reconsider your statement.

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