VA Open Carry in Wash. comPost article


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PershingRiflesC-7
July 14, 2004, 11:27 PM
Guns Worn In Open Legal, but Alarm Va.
'Exercising Right' Called 'Unreasonable' by Some
By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 15, 2004; Page A01


On July 2, Fairfax County police received a 911 call from a Champps restaurant in Reston. Six men are seated at a table, the caller said. They're all armed.

Dispatchers quickly sent four officers to the scene. The officers were "extremely polite" and were hoping that some of the men were in law enforcement, said Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the police department. None was.

-----End Snip--------

Article link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50416-2004Jul14.html

Sounds the VCDL is having quite the time in the Old Dominion. Thought the members that have commented here would enjoy the publicity from the front page of the comPost.

With the law change of 7/1, is it still VA law that you have to open carry if alcohol is served in a restaurant, a la Chili's?

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AZRickD
July 14, 2004, 11:43 PM
Ahhh, the sweet smell of RKBA activism.
"Crime is at 20-year lows in the county," Lt. Col. Charles K. Peters pointed out, even with the population is soaring. The county's homicide rate was the lowest in the nation last year among the 30 largest jurisdictions. "Hopefully no one feels the need to carry a gun, lawfully or unlawfully," Peters said.Well, maybe it's time to reduce the police force. Think of all the savings now that people have the ability to protect themselves. :p

Rick

MJRW
July 14, 2004, 11:53 PM
I hope VCDL is at the Dulles Expo Center show on the 31st. I'm looking forward to joining.

deanf
July 15, 2004, 12:26 AM
Maybe someone could post the whole article. You can't get it at the link provided.

countertop
July 15, 2004, 01:29 AM
Here's a link - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50416-2004Jul14_2.html

Free registration is rquired. I'll post the entire article later.

As I am sure your aware - THR was pretty instrumental in resolving the starbucks incident
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87012

And no, the July 1 law does not impact Restaurant Carry. As I posted on at the countertop chronicles (http://countertop-chronicles.blogspot.com/2004/07/open-carry-in-virginia.html), and have already written the Washignton Post editors about - its a bit hypocritical for the same people who oppose concealed carry in restaurants to know criticize open carry in restaurants.

countertop
July 15, 2004, 01:31 AM
Here's the article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50416-2004Jul14?language=printer


Guns Worn In Open Legal, But Alarm Va.
'Exercising Right' Called 'Unreasonable' by Some

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 15, 2004; Page A01

On July 2, Fairfax County police received a 911 call from a Champps restaurant in Reston. Six men are seated at a table, the caller said. They're all armed.

Dispatchers quickly sent four officers to the scene. The officers were "extremely polite" and were hoping that some of the men were in law enforcement, said Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the police department. None was.

The men told the officers "they were just exercising their rights as citizens of the commonwealth," Perez said.

Turns out, packing a pistol in public is perfectly legal in Virginia. And three times in the last month, including at Champps on Sunset Hills Road, residents have been spotted out and about in the county, with guns strapped to their hips, exercising that right.

In the first episode, at a Starbucks, Fairfax police wrongly confiscated weapons from two college students and charged them with a misdemeanor. Police realized their mistake, returned the guns and tore up the charges the next day. Police commanders have since issued a reminder to officers that "open carry" is the law of the land in the Old Dominion.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization of thousands of Virginia gun owners, said members were involved in all three police encounters. But he said there was no coordinated campaign to start packing heat publicly.

"It was probably more of a coincidence, but not completely," Van Cleave said, noting that word of the improper confiscation spread quickly among members through e-mail. "This is a good opportunity to educate people. We have this inherent right, and not many people exercised it."

In Virginia, as in many states, carrying a concealed weapon requires a permit, issued by a local court. But no permit is required to simply wield a gun in the open, a right reinforced by a state law that took effect July 1. Not so in the District and Maryland, unless you're a police or federal officer.

Fairfax police are baffled by the sudden display of weaponry but assume it was done to make some sort of statement.

"Crime is at 20-year lows in the county," Lt. Col. Charles K. Peters pointed out, even with the population is soaring. The county's homicide rate was the lowest in the nation last year among the 30 largest jurisdictions. "Hopefully no one feels the need to carry a gun, lawfully or unlawfully," Peters said. "But there's no question it is lawful to carry a gun on the street. So we've had to ensure that all of our officers are updated on the nuances of Virginia law that allow citizens to carry firearms in public places."

Although legal, it is disconcerting to some people.

"This just shows you the extreme nature of what they're trying to do," said Bob Ricker, head of Virginians for Public Safety. "You don't want to go to Starbucks or Reston Town Center and see somebody with a firearm strapped on," he added, referring to two locations where armed patrons were found. "It's just something that I think is completely unreasonable. We all understand the concept of self-defense," he said. "But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

The first incident, at a Starbucks on Leesburg Pike near Tysons Corner, might have inspired other gun owners to carry openly. It began shortly before 10 p.m. June 14, Perez said, with a complaint from a citizen. Police arrived to find a 19-year-old man carrying a .22 caliber pistol and a 21-year-old man with a 9mm pistol.

Perez said an officer spoke with the men, then took their guns and charged them with possession of a firearm in a public place. Virginia law 18.2-287.4 expressly prohibits "carrying loaded firearms in public areas."

But the second paragraph of the law defines firearms only as any semiautomatic weapon that holds more than 20 roundsor a shotgun that holds more than seven rounds -- assault rifles, mostly, Van Cleave said. Regular six-shooters or pistols with nine- or 10-shot magazines are not "firearms" under this Virginia law.

The day after the arrest, the officer consulted with a county prosecutor and determined that "he had erred," Perez said. He summoned the two men to the McLean District station, returned their weapons and dropped the charges.

Van Cleave said word of the incident, along with news of a similar incident in Richmond, spread through the defense league's e-mail alert system. "I think people were saying, 'I think I do want to open carry,' " Van Cleave said, though he added the league neither encourages nor discourages the practice.

Carrying weapons openly was not unprecedented locally, Van Cleave said. He said the defense league has a monthly meeting in Northern Virginia with 25 to 30 members, and that most go out to dinner afterward with their sidearms openly visible. "We've had 40 people open carry, in a restaurant, with no problem," he said.

Three days after the incident at Champps, a married couple were walking their dogs down Market Street, the busy thoroughfare in the heart of Reston Town Center, about 3 p.m. In addition to pistols on their hips, Perez said, both the man and woman were carrying an extra magazine of ammunition. An officer spoke with them and was informed that they were members of the defense league and were aware of the Starbucks incident. Perez said the officer took no further action, although Van Cleave said a lieutenant arrived and urged Town Center security to eject them.

Managers at the Starbucks, Champps and Town Center all declined to comment.

Van Cleave said the gun owners might have been out celebrating a law that took effect July 1. Virginia statute 15.2-915 now completely prohibits any locality from enacting any regulations on gun ownership, carrying, storage or purchase, except for rules related to the workforce. Alexandria, for example, had an ordinance prohibiting openly carrying guns. It is now invalid, Van Cleave said.

"It's like the Fourth of July," Van Cleave said. "A whole new set of freedoms came in. . . . All local gun control is completely and totally gone."

Legislators said they passed the bill to eliminate duplicative regulations, particularly in counties such as Fairfax, which imposed its own gun permit process in addition to the federally mandated background check.

Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Ricker said the gun owners "are probably doing their cause more harm than good by raising this issue. It raises an awareness and gives people who are more rational thinkers the opportunity to go to their legislators and make their views known."

Van Cleave said most gun owners, particularly defense league members or concealed weapon permit owners, are law-abiding. Anti-gun forces "have come to think guns themselves are evil. You've got to worry about the person, not the gun."

Treylis
July 15, 2004, 04:30 AM
Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Yes, because we like people getting shot.

Ugh. What a disgrace to the name Rand.

Shovelhead
July 15, 2004, 06:47 AM
What I found interesting was where they "had" to put the page break.

"The first incident, at a Starbucks on Leesburg Pike near Tysons Corner, might have inspired other gun owners to carry openly. It began shortly before 10 p.m. June 14, Perez said, with a complaint from a citizen. Police arrived to find a 19-year-old man carrying a .22 caliber pistol and a 21-year-old man with a 9mm pistol.

Perez said an officer spoke with the men, then took their guns and charged them with possession of a firearm in a public place. Virginia law 18.2-287.4 expressly prohibits "carrying loaded firearms in public areas."


Article continued on next page here*****************************




But the second paragraph of the law defines firearms only as any semiautomatic weapon that holds more than 20 roundsor a shotgun that holds more than seven rounds -- assault rifles, mostly, Van Cleave said. Regular six-shooters or pistols with nine- or 10-shot magazines are not "firearms" under this Virginia law.

The day after the arrest, the officer consulted with a county prosecutor and determined that "he had erred," Perez said. He summoned the two men to the McLean District station, returned their weapons and dropped the charges"

echo3mike
July 15, 2004, 06:49 AM
SO COOL... 'course now I have to get a holster I trust.


On a side note:

All local gun control is completely and totally gone.


Can you hear the sphincters slamming shut at this one? Like Rand's

It raises an awareness and gives people who are more rational thinkers the opportunity to ...make their voices known

Friggin' elitist swine.

S.

Leatherneck
July 15, 2004, 07:58 AM
Friggin' elitist swine. That sums it up nicely.

What's not to love about Kristen Rand?

She possesses the wisdom of Solomon regarding things tactical:Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

She has keen analytical insight into the minds of those she dislikes:
"This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be.

And she has a vision of the future:
Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Yeah, sweety; the slightest provocation like assault, theft, or rape.

Friggin' elitist swine. :fire:

TC
TFL Survivor

Bubbles
July 15, 2004, 08:03 AM
Fairfax police are baffled by the sudden display of weaponry but assume it was done to make some sort of statement.

Huh? I've been openly carrying a pistol in northern VA (including Fairfax) restaurants for years. I guess they're only just now noticing.

Leatherneck
July 15, 2004, 08:31 AM
The operative phrase isFairfax police are baffled :rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

Bubbles
July 15, 2004, 08:37 AM
If you just happen to be registered at WashPost.com, there is a discussion thread on this article.

http://forums.washingtonpost.com/wpforums/messages/?topfolder=3

papercut
July 15, 2004, 10:35 AM
In the first episode, at a Starbucks, Fairfax police wrongly confiscated weapons from two college students and charged them with a misdemeanor. Police realized their mistake, returned the guns
...having dutifully logged them into a national database, where they will forever be "registered" with the owners' names. :fire:

At least they got them back.

papercut
July 15, 2004, 10:47 AM
At least the sheeple will get to see gun owners acting normal and just doing everyday things even when in such close proximity to those evil mind-control guns.

Cacique500
July 15, 2004, 11:04 AM
I hope VCDL is at the Dulles Expo Center show on the 31st. I'm looking forward to joining.

You don't have to wait if you don't want to...they have an online membership form that takes about 2 minutes to fill out.

http://www.vcdl.org

I just joined last week :)

ClonaKilty
July 15, 2004, 11:09 AM
Ricker said the gun owners "are probably doing their cause more harm than good by raising this issue..."

Oh, wow -- hey thanks Kirsten for providing guidance as to what helps and hurts our cause. Very thoughtful of you to help us win the battle for gun rights!

:rolleyes:

Quid pro quo for Rand: I think you're hurting the gun-ban cause by being close buddies with the Hollywood elite and having the mass media hawk every one of your unfounded claims. So, stop it, OK?

JPL
July 15, 2004, 12:38 PM
This was reported, briefly and badly, on WTOP news radio this morning as I was coming to work.

moa
July 15, 2004, 12:40 PM
This is an interesting quote.

" An officer spoke with them and was informed that they were members of the defense league and were aware of the Starbucks incident. Perez said the officer took no further action, although Van Cleave said a lieutenant arrived and urged Town Center security to eject them. "

So, citizens going about peacefully exercising their rights and a police lieutenant takes exception to that. I wonder if that would not be legally actionable against the Town Center, and maybe the police LT., if they were ejected?

No wonder some folks dislike and distrust the police.

Leatherneck
July 15, 2004, 01:13 PM
VCDL has alerted us to two separate on-line polls on this topic today: one by WRVA and one by NBC4. The WRVA poll stands at a lopsided 97%-3% in our favor. The NBC4 one stays at 50-50. But the thing is, I was able to vote twice in both polls, so they're bogus. One could say that ALL on-line polls are bogus, but to the extent that the sponsoring organization reports the results to their audience, they could have some slight significance I guess...

TC
TFL Survivor

John Hicks
July 15, 2004, 01:41 PM
I heard about this at work and on WTOP this morning.

I work for a defense contractor, and I'm the only one defending personal defense!!!

I just grinned and explained how this was our right all along. They fire back with Wild West, and references to SE DC, which I quickly put down . . .

"But guns are already illegal in DC and we see how that helps" :)

I like the references to Fairfax County having extremely low crime rates, despite record population growth. And DC has a soaring crime rate with a record popluation exodus.

No journalist seems to want to make the connection that crime might be low BECAUSE we can carry.

Elitists want us to believe that it's because the police do a great job (which they do in Fairfax), and for no other reason. That's because elitist government controls the police, while armed citizens control themselves.

I think all publicity on this is good. Let people know what rights they have. When they realize VA isn't the old West, more bandwagoners will com on board.

jh

kd7ctv
July 15, 2004, 02:05 PM
in case you havent seen this yet, the Reston center incident is discussed by the so called married couple on Packing.org

Frohickey
July 15, 2004, 02:15 PM
In the first episode, at a Starbucks, Fairfax police wrongly confiscated weapons from two college students and charged them with a misdemeanor. Police realized their mistake, returned the guns and tore up the charges the next day. Police commanders have since issued a reminder to officers that "open carry" is the law of the land in the Old Dominion.

I think that the two college students should sue the Fairfax police in federal court for violating their civil rights, like the Rodney King case. :fire:

I think getting the police given days off without pay (no vacation for those days) would be a good settlement instead of seeking monetary damages. I bet if you give the Fairfax city council a choice of whether they pay out a multi-million dollar judgement, or give the officers a week off without pay, they will gladly choose the latter.

Yes, this might sound a bit anti-cop, but I think the disciplinary action fits. Plus, it would reinforce to other cops that they might want to rethink their actions and that there are consequences for the wrong actions.

Smurfslayer
July 15, 2004, 02:51 PM
I, and at least one other THR member were "Principals" in the Champps encounter. This was no "sudden onset", the bulk of the 13 Champps attendees open carry in almost every restaurant in Virginia that we attend. At least every Friday. 7-2-04 was a bit of a special occasion in that it was 1: post 7-1 when the new laws take effect, and it was in the district of a solid Anti from the VA General Assembly. We did not seek out contact with the police in a confrontational manner, and, quite honestly, we've encountered Fairfax police routinely at many other restaurants we frequent, and the most confrontational exchange we've ever had was
Us "Hey, how're ya doing?"
FPD: "Fine, how are you guys?"
Us "Great"
etc...

A few of us have spoken to the police after the fact, and were more than satisfied with FPD's response to looking into the events.
(as has been previously discussed, in Virginia, the law, 18.2-308 prohibits concealed firearms in restaurants or clubs which serve alcohol)

We have been open carrying in restaurants for years, cause no trouble, and tip well. We are universally welcomed back.

Would you guys mind giving us a leg up on these polls???

http://www.wrva.com/morningshow.html#question

http://www.nbc4.com/news/3532321/detail.html

Devonai
July 15, 2004, 03:09 PM
Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Yeah, I hear the DPW can barely keep up with mopping all the blood off the streets.

:rolleyes:

Frohickey
July 15, 2004, 03:26 PM
okay, FPD might be acting professionally...

but at least, I would like to have FPD charge the patron that called 9-1-1 for the full cost of the police presence.

freewheeling
July 15, 2004, 03:41 PM
I was there, sitting a couple of seats down from Dave. I'm very surprised that people consider an event like this news... but strictly speaking (if you can go by the headline/title) the "news" is the fact that some people consider the exercise of a right to be "unreasonable." <IRE & E>I mean, we all know that reasonableness is the ulitmate moral standard, right? </IRE & E>

freewheeling
July 15, 2004, 03:52 PM
but at least, I would like to have FPD charge the patron that called 9-1-1 for the full cost of the police presence.

Oh, I don't know that I want people to feel reluctant about reporting concerns to the police. The way some people process information they might decide that if reporting the open carry of a 9mm handgun costs them a few bucks, then reporting a suitcase nuke might cost them the price of a new automobile. This is an area where erring on the side of caution isn't a bad thing, and we just need a little extra public education about open carry. The last thing I'd want to do is put a chill in the public's watchfulness, even if it's a hassle sometimes.

Jay Kominek
July 15, 2004, 04:05 PM
Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."
I think she is absolutely terrified of open carry. She loses every time a fence sitter or a grabber notices that they've just walked past someone openly carrying, without getting shot.
When they walk past enough people openly carrying, without anything bad ever happening, then they'll be able to spot her lies. (Even if unconsciously.)

Sportcat
July 15, 2004, 07:16 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125849,00.html

RKCheung
July 15, 2004, 07:41 PM
Sigh... I do miss Virginia so... :(

Frohickey
July 15, 2004, 08:01 PM
"This just shows you the extreme nature of what they're trying to do," said Bob Ricker, head of Virginians for Public Safety. "You don't want to go to Starbucks or Reston Town Center and see somebody with a firearm strapped on," he added, referring to two locations where armed patrons were found. "It's just something that I think is completely unreasonable. We all understand the concept of self-defense. . . . But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

"This just shows you the extreme nature of what they're trying to do," said Nathan Forrest, head of Tenneseans for Public Safety. "You don't want to go to the General Store or Memphis Town Center and see a darkie," he added, referring to two locations where freed slaves were found. "It's jsut something that I think is completely unreasonable. We all understand the concept of equal rights... But when you are talking about Memphis County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

:cuss: :fire:


A right that requires prior approval and permission to exercise is NOT a right.

David Park
July 15, 2004, 08:14 PM
I hope VCDL is at the Dulles Expo Center show on the 31st. I'm looking forward to joining.
MJRW, we will be there in force, including Philip Van Cleave and much of the leadership. Stop by the table! (I'll be the guy open carrying a SIG P220. :) )

Leatherness
July 15, 2004, 08:14 PM
Leatherness here - I don't get it - what's so special about Fairfax??? That quote struck me the wrong way too as I read the article in the Washington Post. We should be able to open carry anywhere in the Commonwealth - End of story.

dev_null
July 15, 2004, 08:43 PM
Brief (I hope!) digression:

MJRW, we will be there in force, including Philip Van Cleave and much of the leadership. Stop by the table! (I'll be the guy open carrying a SIG P220.)
David, what are the venue's rules about carry, both open and concealed, for the attendees?

- 0 -

twoblink
July 16, 2004, 04:57 AM
"But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

Reasonable in the eyes of whom?? I think anything under a .50BMG is reasonable, and I'm sure I can find a few dozen people who'd agree..

"We've had 40 people open carry, in a restaurant, with no problem," he said.

40 people open carrying, that's more defense then the french army! I can't imagine what kind of "problems" couldn't be solved by 40 open carries..

Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Liberals spouting off the lack of self-control on their parts.. :cuss:

Friggin' elitist swine.

Swine becomes good bacon for breakfast, so please don't insult the swines... nor my breakfast..

echo3mike
July 16, 2004, 06:15 AM
I formally apologize to any actual swine / pig / hog for my inadvertent characterization of the :barf: in question.

I have more respect for animals than I have for this ... speaker.


S.

echo3mike
July 16, 2004, 06:49 AM
Gun-Toting in Va. Educates Public, Advocates Say

By Maria Glod and Michael Laris
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, July 16, 2004; Page B6


Jim Snyder was sipping a Coke at a Champps restaurant in Reston, his Colt .45 strapped to his hip, when three Fairfax County police officers walked over to his table. Several of Snyder's dinner companions also were openly carrying weapons -- a scene that prompted a call to 911.



The diners explained that they were simply exercising their rights under Virginia law, Snyder said. And, as the officers made some phone calls to check whether that was true, Snyder relaxed and settled in to enjoy his dinner.

"It didn't bother me at all because I knew what the law was," Snyder, 54, who lives in the Kingstowne area, said yesterday. "I just wanted to see how long it took them to figure it out."

Snyder carries a gun for protection but had it that night because the group had been at a shooting range. He knows that it is perfectly legal in Virginia to openly pack a pistol, and he's delighted that his dining experience, along with a few recent similar incidents, have helped educate some folks, he said.

Fairfax police said that three times in the last month, including the July 2 incident at Champps, residents have been spotted in the county with guns strapped to their hips. In one instance, police wrongly confiscated guns from two college students at a Starbucks and filed misdemeanor charges, mistakes that were corrected the next day.

That case prompted the department to issue a reminder to officers that it's legal to "open carry" most guns in the state.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, said his group spread the word about the Starbucks incident, perhaps prompting other gun owners to openly carry their weapons.

"I think people said, 'I don't like what happened to these guys and I'm going to open carry,' " said Van Cleave, a former Texas deputy sheriff. He noted that it is illegal in Virginia to carry concealed weapons in restaurants where alcohol is served, so those patrons don't have the option to hide their weapons. Concealed weapons require a permit.

Virginia Sen. Kenneth W. Stolle (R-Virginia Beach) said 21 other states have similar open-carry laws.

"In a suburban or urban area, it sometimes causes a level of discomfort but, in my opinion, that level of discomfort doesn't outweigh the constitutional right to bear firearms," Stolle said.

Some, such as Cindy Jones, worry that openly toting guns could make them too accessible to the wrong fingers. "The image that comes to mind is a child could grab it," said Jones, 50, a psychologist. "It's frightening to think that that's the mind-set. It makes me think of a gunslinger with a holster."

Others said they would not be overly concerned if they ran into gun-toting neighbors.

"I'd rather they were open than concealed," said Amber Smith, 47, a horse trainer who grew up around guns and hunters and was taught to shoot by her father. Smith said she might feel different in some contexts -- such as visiting a high-crime locale -- or if the person next to her had serious firepower.

Still, she added, making a scene by lugging some steel is a little too much for her taste. "It's absurd that people think they need to make a political point by carrying it into a coffee shop. They could leave it in the car," Smith said.

But getting people's attention, even if it makes them uncomfortable, is a virtuous and important part of defending the right to bear arms, argues Del. Richard H. Black (R-Loudoun), an outspoken gun rights advocate and one of Virginia's most conservative politicians.

"Many people don't recognize that the right has existed since the settlement of Virginia in 1607," he said. "A lot of our Constitutional rights tend to make people nervous under certain circumstances."

Black also assumes that most people who would openly carry a firearm would also tend to be those with a concealed weapons permit, a highly law-abiding group, he said.

Government contractor Melinda Meador's gun has elicited a host of reactions over the years. She generally brings hers along when she dines out, she said, and the Sterling resident follows a few basic rules.

She calmly explains the law, avoids confrontation, and keeps her gun in its holster. "You certainly don't clear leather," Meador said.

Leatherneck
July 16, 2004, 08:02 AM
This is starting to get interesting, with the publicity from the ComPost and radio stations. I don't know why it got their attention all of a sudden, because many of us have been open-carrying for quite a while. (Although I admit I didn't, except for rural outdoors activities, before getting my concealed pistol permit). Maybe it's a slow news season? Hard to believe...

Anyway, kudos to Phil et al from VCDL. You guys are heroes! Maybe you could record a few of the interviews for playback at the VCDL booth at gun shows and such?

WildkeepalowprofileAlaska will be along shortly to scold you for inciting terror. :neener:

TC
TFL Survivor

cuchulainn
July 16, 2004, 09:24 AM
:rolleyes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/comics/images/Toles/20040716.gif

Ironbarr
July 16, 2004, 09:37 AM
out if the woodwork today.

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20040715-104811-2306r.htm

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0704/159342.html

One other in the Post but requires registration. Reg link available if you desire.

-Andy

dev_null
July 16, 2004, 09:44 AM
*bleat*
"Oh, but the Moonie Times is a CONSERVATIVE paper!" :barf:

With "friends" like that...

Hey, Adrienne: "Wild West" THIS.

- 0 -

srschick
July 16, 2004, 09:47 AM
"It's like the Fourth of July," Van Cleave said. "A whole new set of freedoms came in. . . .

Actually, It's more like a whole set of freedoms have been restored.

BeLikeTrey
July 16, 2004, 09:56 AM
:D

Smurfslayer
July 16, 2004, 10:13 AM
The local bans were already preempted for permit holders. Now, non permit holders are preempted. Nothing like a bunch of sniveling whiny socialists like Gerry Connolly - didn't he leave the scene of an accident recently, and get charged with a misdemeanor? - complaining about people actually not needing government protection? Oh the Humanity!:rolleyes:

I have news for these control freaks. This is my home. I was born around here, and I'm not going anywhere. You don't like the laws here, move to DC, because your antiquated socialist values belong on the scrapheap of history, not in the Commonwealth. In summary, if people lawfully carrying holstered guns scare you, make plans to leave, because I'm staying.

There was no reaction to the Starbucks incident, there was no statement being made here, no sudden onset, and the plain simple truth is that FPD has encountered us (me) open carrying several other times previously, with not so much as a problem. I suspect that the recent onset of 'War on Gangs' here prompted some different procedures for dealing with potential problem situations. I'll give FPD this, these gangs don't play, and require special handling... Still, it's clear from our appearance that we're not gang or terrorist...

twoblink
July 16, 2004, 10:22 AM
Errr... If there are 40 guys open carrying, then something's probably not going to happy. Criminals don't usually "let you know" in advance that I have a gun and am going to use it for malice..

Also, the cops didn't know the laws??

That should prove how confusing most gun laws are..

Leatherneck
July 16, 2004, 10:25 AM
Jeez, Smurf, slow down, Buddy. You'll bust a gasket if you're not careful there.

It's really interesting seeing the print and audio/video media show their true colors...

TC
TFL Survivor

BeLikeTrey
July 16, 2004, 10:25 AM
Adrianne Washington Is a terrible writer and the drivel that she spews is absolutely hateful and intolerant and has no basis other than scare tactics. I need everyone willing to help me send some emails to this paper. or help me write one email stating that her type of anti-gun bigotry and fear mongering has no place in a "reputable media outlet".

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20...04811-2306r.htm

Ironbarr
July 16, 2004, 11:04 AM
Bad link.

Maybe if all Virginians were to come out of the closet for a "few days" there'd be less of this drivel.

(I could just imagine the response of open carry on Atlantic Ave and beachfront right now... "Please, Sir, it would be of great benefit if you'd just cover your weapon - Oh! You DO have a permit, right?")

("Yowzza, Sir"... But... )

David Park
July 16, 2004, 12:05 PM
MJRW, we will be there in force, including Philip Van Cleave and much of the leadership. Stop by the table! (I'll be the guy open carrying a SIG P220.) David, what are the venue's rules about carry, both open and concealed, for the attendees? Standard gun show rules, no loaded firearms but carry as you normally would (concealed is fine with permit). At the Richmond shows run by the same people, they have State Police on the premises to tie up guns (and run background checks, and arrest the one dummy at every show who tries to buy a gun even though he has outstanding warrants :rolleyes: ).

However, one of the new July 1 laws bans weapons at airports unless you are flying and have a firearm in your luggage. Be *very careful* around Dulles, because the MWAA think they rule the entire area around the airport including parts of Routes 28 and 50. I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion about this at the show. :D

dev_null
July 16, 2004, 12:21 PM
> Standard gun show rules, no loaded firearms but carry as you normally would

Contradiction in terms. <G>

So, carry concealed but unloaded? What's the point of that? Or do you mean carry concealed and "don't ask, don't tell?"

- 0 -

BeLikeTrey
July 16, 2004, 12:52 PM
"East Coast gun-toters of the Wild West.
In them thar hillbilly hills and suburban highways, law-abiding Virginians can carry a six-shooter openly in a hip holster or conceal a weapon in a designer purse, but they better not be caught toting a concealed machete."

Do you support the first amendment? If so would you enjoy being called a pornography patron or raving sexual deviant who enjoys pornography? It has been deemed as a first amendment right. Or how about first amendment lunatic? We have a right to these things as enumerated in the Bill of rights. Because you choose not to exercise a given right should you therefore infringe on another’s right to do so? This nation was built on protecting diversity and human rights. What you are saying is a type of bigotry. There is plenty that shocks me, but since these things have been deemed as “protected” under certain rights I keep my mouth shut. I would like you to do what your mother always told you to do. If you can’t say anything nice…


" 'Why else would they have made it illegal, as of July 1, to carry a concealed machete, but barred local jurisdictions from enacting any legislation or ordinances limiting laws concerning concealed weapons or 'open carry' options.
'That's a Virginia law for you," said Suzie Robinson of Richmond, state counsel chairwoman of the "Million Moms March.' "

That’s actually the right to keep AND BEAR arms which Virginia has decided to uphold. What a novel Idea to support the Bill of rights set forth by our predecessors to protect us from governments subjugating us like Nazi Germany, or more recently, the tyranny that was Iraq.

"Mrs. Robinson, who has a 12-year-old boy, was reacting to a scary story in the Other Paper about a terrible summertime trend in the Old Dominion of folks 'exercising their right' to carry guns openly."

Was this a poorly veiled attempt at making us think this woman represents every normal American? What does the fact that she has a twelve year old son have to do with anything? Or are you trying to throw that Tired argument back into the fray “It’s for the children”?
Further what about if I mocked YOUR "right" to freedom of speech which enables you to post this non-sensical rhetoric?

"Can you imagine the additional problems and danger this craziness is presenting, especially for county officers but also for residents? Don't law enforcement officers already have enough trouble discerning the good guys from the bad guys in a quick-draw second?"

I answer this the same as the police answered you. Pretty clearly answered By Officer Perez, I might add.

"However, Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the Fairfax County police, said, 'You're not going to get me to tell you that [the open-carry law] presents a problem for our officers.' "

"Fine. I wonder how long that's going to last if folks have a mind to take the law in their own hands because they are carrying a gun on their hip? Doesn't the county have a growing gang problem?"

Wow, in two sentences you contradicted yourself. “Taking the law into my own hands” I take it you are one of those that prefers to be a victim. As you well know police rarely arrive in time to stop a crime in progress. There is a growing gang problem? Well then I’ll be darned sure to protect myself from a rising “epidemic”. Because you would rather be a victim or suffer from something doesn’t mean you can inflict the same views on me. Do you not inoculate yourself from diseases like Measles Mumps or Rubella? What about Tetanus? I suppose that is ridiculous, after all, who nowadays gets Measles or the like? Why would you get a Tetanus shot when, obviously, you live in a fresh well taken care of area payed for by your tax dollars with no risk of cuts? Or do you live in this world at all?

"What really concerns Mrs. Robinson and an army of gun-control activists is the impending sunset of the federal assault-weapons ban. If the ban expires Sept. 13 as expected, there's a very real possibility in Virginia that someone 'can put a Tech 9 in a holster and carry it around.' The Tech 9, she noted, was the weapon of choice for one of the shooters in the Columbine High School massacre in Colorado.

Wake up toots! The Tec 9 never went away. The AB10 is the same firearm and has been currently sold by the droves. Sure the features are different, but only cosmetically. The latest incarnation of the Tec9 (the AB10) has a SHORTER barrel and holds the same amount of ammunition. By the way there isn’t a holster that I know of that would comfortably hold one. The sheer size alone still discourages anyone carrying that in their day to day lives. Try another argument please.

"Mrs. Robinson pointed out that 'there are plenty of studies that show that people who carry weapons for self-defense are far less likely to use it for self-defense than to be injured.' Like the 85 percent of Americans polled, she is for 'reasonable gun control,' but "unfettered access to a weapon is never a good thing.' "

And to prove to us your “Journalistic Integrity” Those studies are…

"But they are not planning to lobby against the open-carry or concealed-weapons laws that allow Virginians to act like cowboys in the Wild West."

Listen, if this is a problem for you, there are nice temperate climates like Australia for you to live in. You can always move east if you don’t like the wild, wild, west. I’m sure they’d love to hear more of your drivel.

Frohickey
July 16, 2004, 01:32 PM
Virginia Sen. Kenneth W. Stolle (R-Virginia Beach) said 21 other states have similar open-carry laws.

"In a suburban or urban area, it sometimes causes a level of discomfort but, in my opinion, that level of discomfort doesn't outweigh the constitutional right to bear firearms," Stolle said.

Kenneth Stolle for President in 2008. Heck, Kenneth Stolle for President in 2004!!!!!


Some, such as Cindy Jones, worry that openly toting guns could make them too accessible to the wrong fingers. "The image that comes to mind is a child could grab it," said Jones, 50, a psychologist. "It's frightening to think that that's the mind-set. It makes me think of a gunslinger with a holster."

A child could grab it. I guess a child could grab your purse too, right? Sheesh. Ms. Cindy Jones is reaching for a rationale to validate her irrational fear. You would think a psychologist would know that, of all people. :fire:

Smith said she might feel different in some contexts -- such as visiting a high-crime locale -- or if the person next to her had serious firepower.

Still, she added, making a scene by lugging some steel is a little too much for her taste. "It's absurd that people think they need to make a political point by carrying it into a coffee shop. They could leave it in the car," Smith said.

What good is a firearm in the car? Does a car have an alert living breathing security guard looking after it every time, or does it sit out in the parking lot?

Too bad that we don't have the same governmental regulations and restrictions on 1st amendment rights as we currently do (unjustly) on 2nd amendment rights. If that were the case, stupid emotional illogical people would not be allowed to talk and give interviews. :cuss:

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
July 16, 2004, 03:29 PM
If you just happen to be registered at WashPost.com, there is a discussion thread on this article

I'd weigh in but those 1st Amendment protectors over at the comPost's message boards have banned me. Apparently I used the phrases "left wing bias" and "hard-left political agenda" in describing the Post's news reportage a few times too many.

Fairfax's finances are on very thin ice if they intend to continue this unlawfull harassment of gun owners.

JPL
July 16, 2004, 03:30 PM
"What good is a firearm in the car?"

Ask Dr. Susan Gratia-Hupp that question.

When I read about her, that's when my thinking on CCW started to change from "are you out of your mind" to "maybe this isn't such a bad thing after all."

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
July 16, 2004, 06:04 PM
Amazingly enough, the comPost seems to have done a far better (more objective) jobof reporting on this issue than the purportedly conservative Washington Times.

Strange when you consider that Moon senior owns the Washington Times while Moon junior owns Kahr firearms. Maybe the paper is trying to slam open carry in favor of their overpriced ($800+) concealed carry tupperware.

Cortland
July 16, 2004, 07:48 PM
Kenneth Stolle for President in 2008. Heck, Kenneth Stolle for President in 2004!!!!!

Not so fast, friends. Stolle is my state Senator here in Virginia Beach -- he was also the force behind the airport firearms ban that took effect in VA on July 1. Depending on who you talk to he was either a) consummating a terrific bargain in which VA gun owners got full preemption, no more OGAM, etc. in exchange for the airport ban or, 2) firmly in the pocket of the MWAA (and the resteraunt association, and the...). There was also some shady NRA involvement in SB660 (the airport ban).

He's just trying to get back into our good graces.

dev_null
July 16, 2004, 10:40 PM
Kenneth Stolle for President in 2008. Heck, Kenneth Stolle for President in 2004!!!!!
Hell, if we're writing people in, how about John Ross, Matthew Bracken, or Aaron Zellman! :D

- 0 -

FishOrMan
July 17, 2004, 01:29 AM
Glad to see more then one person standing up for their rights. A right not used is soon to be a right refused.

Maybe it takes six to make a difference. That is ok. I will just keep doing what I have to do out here in the "wild west" of Washington State.

Glad to see it may someday bear fruit. Keep it up!

RWK
July 17, 2004, 05:34 AM
I have written about open carry in Virginia – especially Northern Virginia – on S’ville, THR and TFL before.

While generally legal in Virginia for decades, many NorVa LEOs have believed open carry constitutes a disturbance of the peace, a public nuance, or even brandishing. This does not suggest that cases were prosecuted; however, there was a significant potential “hassle factor”. It was VERY LEO dependant, since some individual’s experiences indicated no problems whatsoever.

The recent “Washington Post” news coverage is likely (IMHO) to do three things:
a) Raise LEO awareness that Virginia open-carry is fully legal – a good thing.
b) Induce the Legislature to enact a “Texas like “ amendment to the current CCW laws, allowing conceal carry in some establishments that serve alcoholic beverages (Virginia does NOT now have a 50 percent statute like Texas – if ANY alcohol is served, CCW is illegal) – that is also a good thing.
c) Possibly energize the “soccer mommy” crowd to attempt to restrict Second Amendment rights – “We can’t have firearms in public, they are ALL awful, they will lead to ‘wild west’ gunfights in our affluent, suburban communities “ – a potentially bad thing, if (unlikely) the rest of Virginia were to accede.

Smurfslayer
July 18, 2004, 10:54 AM
RWK,

Have you ever contacted a NoVA LE agency to ask about that 'Breach of the Peace' assertion ? If you had, you would know the answer is not just no, but hell no. I've spoken to 2 agencys and the VSP on the issue and it is very tough to find an officer who does not know this. The Reston District commander was abundantly clear on this to me.

You also go on to say:

b) Induce the Legislature to enact a “Texas like “ amendment to the current CCW laws, allowing conceal carry in some establishments that serve alcoholic beverages (Virginia does NOT now have a 50 percent statute like Texas – if ANY alcohol is served, CCW is illegal) – that is also a good thing.

[SS] Janet Howell already did this last session, and it is blatantly unconstitutional. See : http://legis.state.va.us/Laws/Constitution.htm
go to the index; Article 1, Section 13.
Permits regulate the manner in which arms may be borne, and that has held to be a legitimate exercise of the state power, but said regulation may not be held or used to so curtail the right as to render it moot.


c) Possibly energize the “soccer mommy” crowd to attempt to restrict Second Amendment rights – “We can’t have firearms in public, they are ALL awful, they will lead to ‘wild west’ gunfights in our affluent, suburban communities “ – a potentially bad thing, if (unlikely) the rest of Virginia were to accede.

[SS] minor nit pick; the 4th US circuit does not consider the 2nd Amendment to protect an individual right. Article 1, Section 13 of the Virginia Constitution does.

Also, please do not insult our neighbors to the west with that incorrect term to describe shootouts. The Friday Night Group, in consultation with VCDL has determined that this is demeaning to our western neighbors, inaccurate, and insensitive and must be replaced with a more correct and understandable description.

That is why, from now on, we will refer to them correctly as "Wild DC Shootouts". Are people in the west mowed down by gang thugs and drug dealers with impunity? Are westerners living under the toughest gun prohibitions and suffering the highest per capita violent crime? Are our western neighbors engaging in shootouts to steal a nicer Tommy Hilfiger jacket or the latest Air Jordans? Of course not, so let's stop insulting them and place the blame squarely where it lay - in DC. From now on, don't let this 'wild west' misnomer go unchallenged - it's "Wild DC Shootouts" where only the police have guns...

Shovelhead
July 18, 2004, 11:58 AM
it's "Wild DC Shootouts" where only the police have guns...


:rolleyes: :banghead: ....riiiiight;)

RWK
July 18, 2004, 04:20 PM
Dave,

The two fellows who had their firearms seized by the Fairfax County police were, in fact, arrested for some chicken charge (disturbing the peace, creating a public nuance, or some other type of equally ludicrous offense). They were both given a misdemeanor summons – AND THAT IS AN ARREST. The fact that the charge was dropped and their sidearms were returned the following day is irrelevant; the simple fact is they were illegally arrested.

Therefore, please do not tell me that people have not been arrested – they just were!

And, yes, I called LtCol Peters (of the FCPD) re this subject yesterday, although he has not seen fit to return my call.

Smurfslayer
July 19, 2004, 03:13 PM
Actually, yes, they were arrested, but not non any kind of breach of the peace, disturbing the peace or what have you. They were mistakenly arrested on a violationof 18.2-287.4 which prohibits loaded firearms and defines firearms specifically within the statute. The officers misunderstood this (probably because their code book, I am given to understand, misquotes the law). You can find 18.2-287.4 on
http://leg1.state.va.us ...

I know it looks bad, but this statute is very poorly worded, and is difficult to understand for lawyers in a law office or court room, as well as a cop on the street. I'm in no way excusing the arrest of the two gentlemen at Starbucks, but, the FPD has taken measures to ensure that it does not happen again. Since the Anti called the cops on me for OC at Champps, and I did not get arrested, along with my 12 associates, I would suggest that FPD has addressed the issue.

HTH

Cortland
July 19, 2004, 05:32 PM
The law says: § 18.2-287.4 Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded firearm on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public

(i) in any city with a population of 160,000 or more or

(ii) in any county having an urban county executive form of government or any county or city surrounded thereby or adjacent thereto or in any county having a county manager form of government. The provisions of this section shall not apply to ... any person having a valid permit to carry such firearm

Since the people in question did not have such a permit (or at least refused to show it to the officers), they were arrested. The officers had a booklet of Virginia firearms laws which included some form of the above law, but their booklet did not contain the following portion of the same law:

For purposes of this section, "firearm" means any; (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels a projectile by action of an explosion and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than twenty rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or; (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered.

What's even worse is that the officers in question in one of these incidents (though not this Fairfax one) called the magistrate to confirm that the activity was illegal -- and the magistrate incorrectly told them the activity was indeed illegal, and the officers proceded based on this advice.

You can read about the Fairfax incident here (http://www.packing.org/talk/thread.jsp?talk_thread=26851).

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