[AZTOY]

We'll attack, Japan tells North Korea
February 15 2003
By Shane Green
Japan Correspondent
Tokyo

Japan has warned that it is prepared to launch a strike against North Korea if it believes the communist state is preparing a ballistic missile attack on it.

In Tokyo's most robust military stance since the end of World War II, Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba said Japan would be prepared to strike if it detected North Korea was fuelling ballistic missiles in preparation for an attack.

"It is too late if (a missile) flies towards Japan," Mr Ishiba said. "Our nation will use military force as a self-defence measure if (North Korea) starts to resort to arms against Japan."

Mr Ishiba was at pains to portray a Japanese strike against North Korea as an act of self-defence, in line with Japan's post-war constitution, which forbids military aggression.

But his warning pushes constitutional restraint to the limits, and sends a clear message that Japan will not be a passive target.


As the crisis over North Korea's nuclear arms program worsens, Pyongyang has issued increasingly strident warnings that it is prepared to strike against US forces in the region and their allies. Japan, a chief ally, is within easy missile range.

North Korea maintained its strong line yesterday, rejecting this week's decision by the United Nations nuclear watchdog to refer the nuclear crisis to the UN Security Council.

The North's official Korean Central News Agency dismissed the International Atomic Energy Agency as "America's lapdog", saying Pyongyang had no obligations to the IAEA since its withdrawal from the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty last month.

On Wednesday the IAEA declared North Korea in breach of atomic safeguards, sending the crisis to the 15-nation Security Council.

It was not immediately clear exactly what form any Japan strike against North Korea could take. The country has well-equipped forces but is more geared towards self-defence.

Mr Ishiba's warning will further raise tension in the crisis over North Korea's nuclear arms program.

The US yesterday reaffirmed that it would not immediately push for UN sanctions following the IAEA decision, instead continuing to pursue a diplomatic solution.

The Japanese defence chief also gave his strong support to the development of a missile defence shield with the US, part of Washington's push for a national missile defence system for US forces and allies in Asia.

Japan is extremely vulnerable to a missile attack. In 1998 North Korea test-fired a missile over Japan that landed in the Pacific. Since then, Tokyo and Washington have been researching a missile defence system.

Mr Ishiba foreshadowed a boosting of Japan's own forces to lessen its reliance on US forces based in the country, saying there was no "free ride" in the post-Cold War era.

The North Korean crisis is also certain to provide impetus to push special emergency legislation through the Diet, Japan's parliament, designed to prepare the country for an attack.

The legislation was bogged down in the Diet last year, but the Government is making a renewed push to have it passed in the current session.

Mr Ishiba's comments came as the the US Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, James Kelly, said he believed the North Korean crisis could prompt Japan to rethink its position as a non-nuclear weapons state.

"Certainly, this is a problem that is of a very serious impact on Japan and will cause Japan to rethink all of its positions," he told the House of Representatives International Relations Committee.

But Mr Kelly - the official to whom North Korea confessed to having a nuclear arms program last September - said he believed Japan would stay non-nuclear while it remained under the US nuclear umbrella.

Separately, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld signalled a possible overhaul of US forces in South Korea, which could include a reduction in the 37,000 troops stationed there.

He told a congressional hearing that he would like to see forces moved away from the heavily fortified border and the South Korean capital, Seoul.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/14/1044927800992.html

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[jmbg29]

On a couple of different occasions, I got to work with the J.M.S.D.F. AKA Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force AKA 4th largest navy in the world IIRC. Good folks.

Japan had a few thousand years of a fierce warrior culture. We and they have done quite a bit of work to, if you will, temper the fierceness of their culture.

I would say that if the North Korean nutjobs don't cut it out, then they may not have to rouse the "Sleeping Giant", I'm thinking that the giants little brother could handle the light work.

I don't think that I would want to be on the recieving end of almost 60 years of pent up hostility.

Or as E.T. might say...Oooowwwch.:uhoh:

[SodaPop]

Japan has warned that it is prepared to launch a strike against North Korea

They should threaten to crash planes into North Korean buildings.

Dare we say.....Kamikaze.

4th largest navy in the world IIRC

I'm getting lost with who ranks where as far a military power these days. I assume the vast majority of JDF was against North Korea?

[David Park]

I assume the vast majority of JDF was against North Korea? These days, yes, but Japan also has a long-running border dispute with Russia regarding who controls certain northern islands. Japan made a lot of enemies in Asia during WWII.

The power of the majority Liberal Democratic Party has been weakened in recent years due to scandals and the stagnant economy. The last Prime Minister was a horrible failure, so his replacement, Junichiro Koizumi, is somewhat of a maverick reformer, at least by Japanese standards. He's very hawkish, as this article demonstrates. Japan has even been trying to figure out how to support our forces in Iraq without violating their constitution. :) They've publicly criticized France and supported the US position in the UN:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20030216wo02.htm

[Coronach]

Japan is a frigate navy. But when you are conducting operations close to land, every navy is effectively a frigate navy.

And as far as frigate navies go, Japan is by far one of the best. Their equipment is all modern and most of it is US-designed. They have Aegis destroyers, and doubtless know how to use them. The USN is superior to them only in sheer numbers, and the fact that we have carriers...and in modern warfare if you don't have carriers, you better stay close to a friendly airbase, or you will get eaten alive.

Mike

[Blackcloud6]

What paper, magazine, website was this article in?

[Coronach]

If you click on the link provided in the first post, you can see what website it is on. ;)

Mike

[Bahadur]

Hard to say what the Japanese intention is in the event of an attack on it from North Korea, which is very unlikely to begin with (why would North Korea attack its biggest source of hard currency?).

I suspect it wants to avoid the repeat of the recent North Korean "test flight."
Japan had a few thousand years of a fierce warrior culture.Not quite "a few thousand years." The reputation of "fierce warrior culture" stems from the period of internecine warring years, a couple hundred years at most, that was ended by Tokugawa Shotgunate. Even then the Japanese were no more "fierce" than many other societies based on feudal warfare.
We and they have done quite a bit of work to, if you will, temper the fierceness of their culture.A couple of atomic bombs and a complete and humiliating occupation of their "godly" homeland by a bunch of smelly Gaijin after a maniacal colonial drive for war will do that to the psyche of the population.
I don't think that I would want to be on the recieving end of almost 60 years of pent up hostility.There is no "60 years of pent up hostility" in Japan toward North Korea. However, the public sentiment there against the North is not great these days, what with the revelations about the Japanese abductees and the ballistic overflight.
I'm getting lost with who ranks where as far a military power these days. I assume the vast majority of JDF was against North Korea?The JSDF was originally built to support the US in the event the Soviet Union invaded Japan. During the Reagan years, the naval component of the JSDF was built up further to aid the US in maintaining the stability of the North Pacific. These days, the JSDF is geared toward humanitarian missions and to protect Japanese sovereignty rights vis-a-vis China and North Korea (both of which have ongoing territorial and others disputes with Japan).

BTW, the JSDF is very well-budgeted and technically/technologically very sophisticated. But it is my observation that their personnel lacks a certain "warrior spirit."
The last Prime Minister was a horrible failure, so his replacement, Junichiro Koizumi, is somewhat of a maverick reformer, at least by Japanese standards.The key operating phrase there is "by Japanese standards." Koizumi hasn't done much of a reform YET and his popularity has plummeted since his inauguration.
And as far as frigate navies go, Japan is by far one of the best. Their equipment is all modern and most of it is US-designed. They have Aegis destroyers, and doubtless know how to use them. The USN is superior to them only in sheer numbers, and the fact that we have carriers...and in modern warfare if you don't have carriers, you better stay close to a friendly airbase, or you will get eaten alive.Nobody except the 7th Fleet has carriers in the region, so Japan probably has the best naval forces in the area aside from the US.

[Waitone]

I've never been one to believe the Japanese's foreswearance of the use of nukes. As one of the world's largest users of nuclear power they have all the parts necessary to assemble a device.


Last week I read an article (don't have the reference) which said Japan's stance is to be able to assemble a nuclear device within 6 months from go.

So my assumption is if Japan can do it, so can Taiwan.

In all the goin's on China may be the country with the biggest surprise.

[jmbg29]

Even then the Japanese were no more "fierce" than many other societies based on feudal warfare.Maybe you misunderstood me. I wasn't implying that they were "more fierce" than like cultures. But if we were to contrast the Japanese with say, the Dineh (Hopi) culture, I think we would be talking different grades of fierce.There is no "60 years of pent up hostility" in Japan toward North Korea. Perhaps there isn't now. I haven't been there in over 20 years. But when I was there, most Japanese (especially J.M.S.D.F. guys that I worked with) had a pent up hostility for damn near everybody. For that matter, one would be hard pressed to find a group of people that dislike each other more than the Japanese and Koreans. Given their historical interaction, I find their misgivings very understandable. Same goes for the Koreans that I worked with during Team Spirit exercises.A couple of atomic bombs and a complete and humiliating occupation of their "godly" homeland by a bunch of smelly Gaijin after a maniacal colonial drive for war will do that to the psyche of the population.I had more than one Japanese person of the WWII generation tell this "barbarian" that they understood why we did it, and that the suffering and death would have been much worse if we hadn't. I spent most of my time in the WestPac on Okinawa, and compared to what we had to do there with conventional stuff, a single nuke on Naha would have been a blessing. They were still digging up UXO when I was there, probably still are.But it is my observation that their personnel lacks a certain "warrior spirit."I once thought that myself, but I came to believe that theirs is just "different". Every Japanese person that I met, even those that lived at the fringes of that society, had a deeply ingrained sense of "group". The best way that I can describe it would be that most American soldiers/sailors give me the sense that they will personally fight to the bitter end at the drop of a hat. The Japanese on the other hand gave me the sense that none would charge ahead until they all charged ahead. After that, all bets would be off.

I also sensed a deep reluctance on their part to do anything that might result in another defeat for their country. A very real "all or nothing" kind of thing.

[.45Ruger]

So the government can act in self-defense but the unarmed population can't.

I just don't understand that logic. But it is their country and if that's the way they prefer things, live and let live.

[grampster]

Regarding Sec'y Rumsfeld's comment about pulling some of our troops out of the DMZ and ROK, mirrors my sentiment about that situation. In fact I think we should pull ALL of our troops out, period. With PRK's nuclear capability, our people are nothing but a speed bump and would be a sacrifice of American troops that is totally without merit.
ROK folk have been saying they don't want or need us. In this instance I think we should go with the popular sentiment and leave those folks to their own devices.
As far as I could see, if the PRK invades the south and or nukes it, that area of the world would be a wasteland and a problem for China to absorb and take their mind off Taiwan. PRK would then have double the starving people and the rest of the world would get a valuable lessen, again, about the realities of tyranny.
Let the ROK earn their freedom the hard way, if it's necessary.

[clem]

Well, the Japanese military did give the US a hard time in the Pacific during WWII. So, I think they would really give those NK jerks something to worry about, if they attack.

And ain't they got Godzillia in a cage or something?

Really, the Japanese would cause the NKs a lot of pain and trouble.

[Jim March]

I find it impossible to believe the Japanese don't have a few nukes stashed away for a rainy day.

I'm not bothered by that. If anything, given the close proximity to the total lunatics running North Korea and the barely-any-better Chinese leadership, I would consider it a massive dereliction of duty if Japan *hadn't* brewed up a few big bangers. Odds are they did it 20+ years ago, back when Russia was still a real threat.

For at least 15+ years, Fujitsu and others have been building supercomputers (backed by massive gov't underwriting), which can be used to model nukes without actually lighting the wick on 'em.

Let's not forget that one of the world's largest untapped areas of dry-land natural resources is Siberia, which Russia doesn't have the money to properly exploit. *Somebody* is gonna get at those goodies, which is basically "everything found in Alaska, times 3 or 4". Gold, oil, metals, natural gas, etc. China is eyeing it hungrily. If Japan can get it's economy back together, they'll buy access. The US could do the same.

And it's all right in Japan's back yard - if a fight breaks out, they'll get dragged in.

[jmbg29]

And ain't they got Godzillia in a cage or something?I think he's stuck in a glacier or something. :D

[David Park]

I find it impossible to believe the Japanese don't have a few nukes stashed away for a rainy day. I read somewhere last week that Japan reported some of its plutonium was "missing." The implication was that the plutonium had disappeared inside of Japan's nonexistent nuclear weapons, just in case the DPRK started some trouble. :what:

[Bahadur]

jmbg29:
Maybe you misunderstood me. I wasn't implying that they were "more fierce" than like cultures.You misunderstood me. I never wrote "like cultures."

My contention was that the supposed fierceness of the Japanese soldiery during WWII was mostly hype, which came into being in the Western minds during the Russo-Japanese War, then cemented by their early successes during World War II.

In part, this was a part of that natural human instinct, which is to assign extra-normal qualities to an opponent (particularly one belonging to a very different culture). A similar set of attributions also applied to the Germans (to a much lesser degree, of course, since they were "Christian Europeans").

Certainly our marines in the South Pacific could be just as fierce as the Japanese, and quite often more so. Some Japanese units in the Pacific were quite courageous and "fierce" no doubt, but that kind of resistance was not always the norm. The Japanese Kwantung Army in Manchuria was supposed to be the cream of the crop for the Imperial Japanese Army. Yet when the Soviets launched a Blitzkrieg of their own in 1945, the Japanese crumbled and gave up many prisoners (!).
Perhaps there isn't now. I haven't been there in over 20 years. But when I was there, most Japanese (especially J.M.S.D.F. guys that I worked with) had a pent up hostility for damn near everybody. For that matter, one would be hard pressed to find a group of people that dislike each other more than the Japanese and Koreans. Given their historical interaction, I find their misgivings very understandable. Same goes for the Koreans that I worked with during Team Spirit exercises.Oh, there is hostility between Japanese and Koreans all right, but the intensity of it usually goes one-way. Hmmm, I wonder which way it goes...
I had more than one Japanese person of the WWII generation tell this "barbarian" that they understood why we did it, and that the suffering and death would have been much worse if we hadn't.That may be. The current consensus in Japan from all age groups, however, is that the Japanese were a "victim" of a nuclear attack. For many Japanese, the war began with the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Most Japanese school texts still teach that the Japanese began their military effort to "liberate" their fellow Asians from European imperialism and ended up losing the war because the US used inhumane nuclear weapons. What about the Japanese atrocities you ask? "Well, war is terrible" (!). No, really? I see, so the Japanese atrocities were merely the normally terrible aspects of warfare, but, see, what the Japanese suffered, that was just ghastly inhumane "special" victimhood.
I once thought that myself, but I came to believe that theirs is just "different". Every Japanese person that I met, even those that lived at the fringes of that society, had a deeply ingrained sense of "group".Very much so, to be stereotypical about it. Japan is very much a group society even now. What's that got to do with "warrior spirit"? The Japanese are almost uniformly pacifist.
I also sensed a deep reluctance on their part to do anything that might result in another defeat for their country. A very real "all or nothing" kind of thing.That was the genesis of their pacifism - not wanting to be defeated militarily again. They found that the best way to not be defeated militarily - ever - was not to get into a war - ever. Of course, it came in handy that another warrior nation guaranteed their security. After all, why fight if you can work on your economy and make it the second richest in the world?

clem:
Well, the Japanese military did give the US a hard time in the Pacific during WWII. So, I think they would really give those NK jerks something to worry about, if they attack.Well, the American Indians gave the US Army "a hard time" for a while too. Where are they now as a warrior nation?

Jim March:
I find it impossible to believe the Japanese don't have a few nukes stashed away for a rainy day.The Japanese are categorically, almost allergically opposed to the development of nuclear weapons. However, they retain the *capacity* to create one in short order. Likewise, their space program is exclusively devoted to civilian purposes, but they retain the *capacity* to produce ICBMs if necessary. It's just that their sense of that necessity threshold is very, very high.
Let's not forget that one of the world's largest untapped areas of dry-land natural resources is Siberia, which Russia doesn't have the money to properly exploit. *Somebody* is gonna get at those goodies, which is basically "everything found in Alaska, times 3 or 4". Gold, oil, metals, natural gas, etc.For now, that kind of an estimate remains a hyperbole rather than fact. It is certainly possible, but exploitation of Siberia pose some unique obstacles (which translate into high cost).
China is eyeing it hungrily.China is busy right now. The "WTO reform" has bankrupted hundreds, probably thousands, of state-owned businesses. They are tottering in the brink of collapse. Millions of workers have been laid off without the promised salaries or pensions. The pressure building inside is tremendous. Unless there is some kind of an outlet built soon, I am afraid that China might experience a great deal of instability.

Remember the maxim that revolutions occur when the lives improve rather than decline. Why? Because when there is a high-speed growth, it tends to be uneven. Unfortunately, however, expectations are universal when there is much growth. Soon, there exists a gap between the expectation and the actual growth.

Both Taiwan and South Korea escaped the Third World status economically while under tremendous internal political pressures. Their potential instabilities were, to some extent, countered and contained by serious external threats (mainland China and North Korea, respectively). Yet, they still went through a tumultous periods of popular protests before some semblance of "democracy" and stable transfers of power took place. Because of more adverse circumstances, I am less optimistic about China.
If Japan can get it's economy back together, they'll buy access. The US could do the same.While the Japanese are doing poorly, let's put that in perspective. Japan is still the 2nd richest country in the world. Even if it were to fall behind Germany and become the 3rd richest country, it would only be a very MINOR "disaster." Certainly beats the likes of China, which has millions of migrants and vagabonds roaming the countryside and the urban landscape looking for handouts and jobs.

[jmbg29]

My contention was that the supposed fierceness of the Japanese soldiery during WWII was mostly hypeMy grandfather on my mom's side that was wounded in the battle of the Coral Sea, disagreed with your contention to his dying day.Oh, there is hostility between Japanese and Koreans all right, but the intensity of it usually goes one-way. Hmmm, I wonder which way it goes...That's only because the Koreans always lose.The current consensus in Japan from all age groups, however, is that the Japanese were a "victim" of a nuclear attack.No need to go to Japan to hear that point of view. Visit a local American High School.:banghead: What's that got to do with "warrior spirit"?Isolated out of context, nothing. Taken with the rest of what I said, the obvious. A small group of people, on a tiny set of islands, with marginal resources, stomped all of their neighbors.

[Jim March]

Quoting Bahadur:

"The Japanese are categorically, almost allergically opposed to the development of nuclear weapons. However, they retain the *capacity* to create one in short order. Likewise, their space program is exclusively devoted to civilian purposes, but they retain the *capacity* to produce ICBMs if necessary. It's just that their sense of that necessity threshold is very, very high."

Publicly, you bet.

Do you really think their leaders are as squeamish?

Look, what goes on in Japan in public is a very different thing than what goes on in private.

I once talked to a guy who was close to the President of a major Japanese corp. In private, that guy got the type of bow that would have gone to one of the old Feudal Lords. Officially there ain't any such critter as a Feudal Lord.

:scrutiny:

Let's not even get into the ties between the Japanese corporate world and the Yakuza...many of which function as and think of themselves as the old Bushido (Samurai).

Your average Japanese in the street doesn't even want to think about all this. They don't want to think about the hookers in the schoolgirl uniforms, either :rolleyes:. Or Bukkake :barf:.

Weird bunch, once you take a closer look.

[Bahadur]

jmbg29:
My grandfather on my mom's side that was wounded in the battle of the Coral Sea, disagreed with your contention to his dying day.Your maternal grandfather may very well be right about the Japanese bunch *he* ran into. But as I stated before, the cream of the IJA in Manchuria collapsed like a house of cards and ran like little girls when the Soviet mechanized armies showed up. Everyone's got his fierce group of warriors (we had the USMC, just to name one group).
That's only because the Koreans always lose.Only in the modern times. During the ancient times, the Koreans used to thwack the Japanese with regularity (except in one occassion during the medieval period when a surprise Japanese invasion almost toppled the Chosun dynasty). But, as they say, it is ancient history.
No need to go to Japan to hear that point of view. Visit a local American High School.Touche!
Isolated out of context, nothing. Taken with the rest of what I said, the obvious. A small group of people, on a tiny set of islands, with marginal resources, stomped all of their neighbors.A lucky turn of history. Had the Chinese or the Koreans westernized first, they'd have stomped the composite bow wielding Japanese bannermen instead of the reverse.

Jim March:
Publicly, you bet.

Do you really think their leaders are as squeamish?Yes, indeed. The Old Guard of the LDP is pathologically averse to anything military. The military chiefs exercise virtually no say in the government. To serve in the military side of the government is a deadend for a bureaucrat (unlike the US, prestigious bureaucrats, not politicians, run Japan).
Look, what goes on in Japan in public is a very different thing than what goes on in private.On somethings, yes. Sexual perversion is one.
I once talked to a guy who was close to the President of a major Japanese corp. In private, that guy got the type of bow that would have gone to one of the old Feudal Lords. Officially there ain't any such critter as a Feudal Lord.Ah, but the head of a Zaibatsu or now a Keiretsu is a feudal lord, the paternal figure responsible for rewards and punishments of corporate feudalism.
Let's not even get into the ties between the Japanese corporate world and the Yakuza...many of which function as and think of themselves as the old Bushido (Samurai).Yakuza is Yakuza. It has its own code. It does not care for, nor pretend to be, practitioners of Bushido. BTW, the most powerful Yakuza clan in Japan is made up of about 40% ethnic Koreans. As anywhere else, organized crime is often the choice of profession for those who are oppressed.
Your average Japanese in the street doesn't even want to think about all this. They don't want to think about the hookers in the schoolgirl uniforms, either . Or Bukkake .Whaaa? They love young women in schoolgirl uniforms!
Weird bunch, once you take a closer look.Hey, now, we all have our weirdnesses! They are just different :)

[The Nip]

Japanese might have a queer culture, but if I'm picking one country in that region to trust, it'll be them.

Chinese? Nope. Either Korea? NOPE. And every other country in "Asia" is such a worthless starving 3rd-world dump, that I could honestly care less what they think or want. They want to oppose us? Fine...we'll stop sending free handouts and those primates can go back to climbing banana trees and eating bugs.

Like I said in the other thread, I'm all for rearming Japan, because looking at this current situation with the commies in the Pacific, we're probably going to need them.

Besides...it'd be nice to have the Koreans angry at another country, redirecting their missles.


The Nip

[Jim March]

TN: we actually agree on that. Weird is one thing, completely psycho is another.

Now, as to North Korea shifting attention to Japan: it's already there. Look, NK foreign policy is NOT based on actual reality, it's based on the most distorted load of PR horsecrap you've ever heard. In their "realtime mythology", the Japanese are still rampaging horrors. The US is worse, of course :rolleyes:.

We're not dealing with reality here. We're dealing with total nutcases from top to bottom. With nukes. It's nightmarish.

[The Nip]

We're not dealing with reality here. We're dealing with total nutcases from top to bottom. With nukes. It's nightmarish.

JM, I agree. Koreans aren't known for their logical capacity. It's even scarier for me, because I live in HAWAII. If they don't send one our way, the fallout from an attack on Japan might turn our kids three-legged.

You know, I've always said that the Japs should've been allowed to finish their conquest in Asia....at least to the point where Korea was destroyed. People called me a whacko, but hey...looks like I was right all along.


NIP

[Bahadur]

The Nip:
Japanese might have a queer culture, but if I'm picking one country in that region to trust, it'll be them.Gee, you wouldn't be ethnically Japanese now, would you? Just an ignorant guess, judging from your handle.
Chinese? Nope. Either Korea? NOPE. And every other country in "Asia" is such a worthless starving 3rd-world dump, that I could honestly care less what they think or want.Well, Taiwan and South Korea are hardly "worthless starving 3rd-world dumps." They are two of the top 20 industrial and commercial powers.
They want to oppose us? Fine...we'll stop sending free handouts and those primates can go back to climbing banana trees and eating bugs.Come again?
Like I said in the other thread, I'm all for rearming Japan, because looking at this current situation with the commies in the Pacific, we're probably going to need them.Need I remind you that the communist and leftist parties are quite powerful in Japan? In Taiwan and South Korea, to be a declared communist is to earn an invitation to weeks of interrogation and a trip to solitary confinement under "national security" laws. They are much more "anti-communist" countries than Japan.
JM, I agree. Koreans aren't known for their logical capacity.Hmmm. Seoul, South Korea has the highest number of Ph.D. holders per capita in the world. I'd refrain from making such a drastic statement if I were you. That is IF I were you.
You know, I've always said that the Japs should've been allowed to finish their conquest in Asia....at least to the point where Korea was destroyed. People called me a whacko, but hey...looks like I was right all along.If you wanted the Japanese to obliterate Koreans or any other groups of people, you are indeed a wacko. And, no, you haven't been right all along. There are people other than Koreans who suffer from delusions, apparently.

Jim March:
Look, NK foreign policy is NOT based on actual reality, it's based on the most distorted load of PR horsecrap you've ever heard.Horsecrap or no, North Korean foreign policy is actually quite rational despite the tiresome rhetoric. North Korea is trying to get some attention and cut a better deal with the US while its attention is occupied elsewhere. I seriously doubt that it wants an actual war with the US.

It is a perfectly rational gain-maximization strategy for them. Of course, our best counter would be to ignore them until we're done with Iraq and then deal with them from a position of strength (as we re-allocate our forces to East Asia). Sadly, that may or may not be possible thanks to the idiots who buy into the "dangerous immedate threat" hype in the media and those who want the US to disengage from the Iraqi situation at any cost.

[The Nip]

Seoul, South Korea has the highest number of Ph.D. holders per capita in the world. I'd refrain from making such a drastic statement if I were you. That is IF I were you.

That's why Americans are sending all of our terminally ill to Seoul, right? Or perhaps, that says something about the quality of schools in S. Korea, or the scholastic requirements in Korean colleges. Oh wait....I can't think of a single reputable Korean academic institution.

Well, Taiwan and South Korea are hardly "worthless starving 3rd-world dumps." They are two of the top 20 industrial and commercial powers.

...for third-world labor industries. Last I remembered, Taiwanese employed more children in sweat-shops than India. And "top 20" doesn't really mean much, being that there are barely 20 nations on this planet that don't require funding and aid from countries like us.

Hey, if you're a big fan of Korea then that's your business. I won't look down on anyone for liking a foreign country, God knows, that's where my sorry butt came from. Let's just not attribute non-existent qualities to countries that definitely don't deserve them.


NIP

[Jim March]

WHOA there, I never said "Koreans".

:rolleyes:

The issue here is the level of hardcore, nonstop professional propaganda the NORTH Koreans have been subjected to by the single most evil regime on the planet today. Yes, the whole lot have been driven clinically insane. That's got nothing to do with genetics or even "Korean culture" per se.

It's the last, most horrific holdout of classic Stalinism going on. The same thing warped Russia's culture something awful and they still haven't gotten over it 100%.

[Bahadur]

The Nip:
That's why Americans are sending all of our terminally ill to Seoul, right? Or perhaps, that says something about the quality of schools in S. Korea, or the scholastic requirements in Korean colleges. Oh wait....I can't think of a single reputable Korean academic institution.Actually, many Korean Ph.D.'s received their degrees in the United States. The reason the ratio is so high is because Koreans value education tremendously. Their school kids always place in top three of international math competitions. If you know anything, I mean ANYTHING, about Korea, you'd know that it's difficult to be taken seriously in their politico-economic circles without a doctorate. It's a different culture there - there is very little of the anti-intellectualism that pervades in other countries.
...for third-world labor industries. Last I remembered, Taiwanese employed more children in sweat-shops than India. And "top 20" doesn't really mean much, being that there are barely 20 nations on this planet that don't require funding and aid from countries like us.I don't know where you got that "sweat-shop" comparison Taiwan and India. Their huge literacy gaps (and their educational implications) invalidate your rantings. Most Indians wish they were as prosperous as the Taiwanese.

And top 20 sure does matter whole lot to those countries. The citizens of those top 20 countries enjoy luxuries that the outside-the-20 can only dream of. As an example, South Korea boasts the highest Internet broadband usage per capita in the world (they also have some of the highest alcohol intake per capita in the world, but that's another story).
Hey, if you're a big fan of Korea then that's your business. I won't look down on anyone for liking a foreign country, God knows, that's where my sorry butt came from.As usual, you get it wrong. I am not a big fan of Korea. In fact, I am not a big fan of any country except the US. I am an immigrant to the US. I love this country. I'd die for it to preserve it for my children.

But I've travelled and lived overseas extensively. I have the ability (by no means unique) to examine other countries in a rational, factual manner.
Let's just not attribute non-existent qualities to countries that definitely don't deserve them.I think you need to speak for yourself!

It seems that your hatred of South Korea and Taiwan and your blind love of Japan are robbing you of your ability to see facts and reason from them.

I note, also, that you conveniently fail to respond to my other points that expose your lack of facts and logic.

Jim March:

I agree. Most of my responses were to this character "The Nip."

[PDshooter]

That's great!!!
Let Japan spend there "Yen&Blood"
Not ours!!!

[Thumper]

Skorz, I don't always agree with you, but sometimes you're dead on. Good reply.

[Byron Quick]

Bahadur,

I do not share your opinion that the North Korean government is rational.

I agree with your assessment of the South Koreans.

Jim March's assertion that the Japanese have the ability to produce nuke's within six months is probably a smoke screen. The real time of production is almost certainly much less when you consider their technical base. Personally, I would not be surprised if sub-assemblies were in existence, needing only the final machining of plutonium and assembly.

[Bahadur]

Thumper:
Skorz, I don't always agree with you, but sometimes you're dead on. Good reply.Please "Bahadur." The other name is obsolete (though it may be current on another site, more out of habit than anything else).

And thanks for the compliment. Of course, we don't and shouldn't agree with each either all the time - that'd take the whole fun and learning experience out of forums like this one. :)

Byron Quick:
I do not share your opinion that the North Korean government is rational.

I agree with your assessment of the South Koreans.Let me put it this way. I think that the North Korean foreign policy is rational in the context of that country's (or better, that regime's) objectives. One of those objectives is the preservation and continuation of the repressive, parasitic and just down right evil regime. Those objectives, I find irrational. But "evil" is always irrational to me (others find such a thinking - benefitting at the expense of suffering by the millions - quite rational).

But, having established those motiviations, their means of perpetuating them are quite "rational" in a positivist (not normative) sense.
Jim March's assertion that the Japanese have the ability to produce nuke's within six months is probably a smoke screen. The real time of production is almost certainly much less when you consider their technical base.I agree. I estimate their technical capacity to produce a nuclear weapon at weeks, not months. Nonetheless, it is a history-altering type of step that the Japanese will not take lightly.

[Leatherneck]

Nonetheless, it is a history-altering type of step that the Japanese will not take lightly.

Like believing that NK is preparing to overfly your country with a plutonium-tipped missile?

Good discussion among knowledgable folks. Thanks.

TC
TFL Survivor

[Bahadur]

Leatherneck:
Like believing that NK is preparing to overfly your country with a plutonium-tipped missile?Yes, that would seriously affect the Japanese nuclear calculus. Even then, the first Japanese instinct would be to get the US to counter the threat, rather than plunging in the nuclear club themselves.

[Byron Quick]

I don't know if the Japanese would react that way. Personally, if I were a Japanese, I would have doubts as to just how far the US would go to defend Japan.

As far as I know, the North Koreans do not yet (with extreme emphasis on the yet) have the capability to actually build a nuclear device small enough to fit on their available missiles. If I were Japanese, there is no way I would allow them to attain that capability without myself having the capability to blow them to dust bunnies.

Once again, I do not have faith that the North Korean regime is rational or even that the North Korean regime has irrational goals that it is attempting to attain via rational means. I think a good case can be made that the psychopaths are in charge of the asylum.

[CWL]

Didn't know there were still knuckle-dragging Hawaiians around, -probably not a Local anyway.

For those uneducated on the facts:
Japan has one of the largest militaries in the world based on total dollar amount and %GNP. Their military is as technically advanced as the US is. The Japanese just don't like to advertise this to their neighbors. No need to rearm them, they've got enough of everything.

Taiwan doesn't employ child-labor sweatshops. :rolleyes: Last time there were was when Japan colonized them (same for Korea). Taiwan is a world technology exporter. They actually import foriegn workers from Malaysia, Thailand, Philipines to do the hi-tech manufacturing that Taiwan is known for. Part of the employment contract is to provide them with a nightschool education. (at least somebody is getting an education)

I've spent time with & observing N. Koreans (while in China). They've been brainwashed all of their lives. Even if they only believe 1/4 of the stuff they've heard, they still have a seriously distorted impression of what's going on -especially since they don't have any outside info comparison.
Yes, many are fanatics (namely the privileged military & communist cadres), but the vast majority of N. Koreans just want to be able to put food on the table for their families. Most of the crisis currently manufactured by N. Korea is for domestic consumption.

[The Nip]

Didn't know there were still knuckle-dragging Hawaiians around, -probably not a Local anyway. --CWL

You're the epitome of the big-headed, self-righteous, pushy mainlander who comes to Hawaii thinking he knows it all, but knows absolutely nothing.

I'd like you to visit Hawaii and repeat that comment in public. You'd see what the "knuckle-dragging" Hawaiians do to mouthy "haoles" like yourself.

Been in Hawaii since 1890...I'm more "local" than you or your military-brat, wish-I-was-local, transplanted kook relatives (unwanted in Hawaii) can ever hope to be.


NIP

[Jim March]

Byron Quick, sorry, I'm very puzzled by this:

---------
Jim March's assertion that the Japanese have the ability to produce nuke's within six months is probably a smoke screen. The real time of production is almost certainly much less when you consider their technical base. Personally, I would not be surprised if sub-assemblies were in existence, needing only the final machining of plutonium and assembly.
---------

Ehhh...huh? I've been arguing they probably have nukes stashed away NOW. Not a large amount, but a few for a rainy day. They'd be negligent NOT to given the close proximity of a large number of loonies. Could they produce more in a hurry? Hell yes.

You've got me mixed up with somebody else, dude ;).

[Bahadur]

The Nip:

Now that you admitted that you are a "full-blooded" Japanese-American in another thread, why not simply come out and admit that you hate Koreans and Taiwanese, and are unable to see through your prejudices?

That would certainly be consistent with your notion that Koreans and Taiwanese should "go back to climbing banana trees and eating bugs." Funny, there ain't any banana trees in Korea (the climate for which is too temperate for bananas).
You're the epitome of the big-headed, self-righteous, pushy mainlander who comes to Hawaii thinking he knows it all, but knows absolutely nothing.Well, some of us mainlanders know enough geography and biology to understand that banana trees don't grow in Korea.
I'd like you to visit Hawaii and repeat that comment in public. You'd see what the "knuckle-dragging" Hawaiians do to mouthy "haoles" like yourself.That's a real tribute to Hawaiians - that, according to you, they'd engage in mob "justice" to punish someone for saying something they don't like. Maybe you don't realize that this is the US 2003, not Japan 1936.

BTW, I go to Hawaii every year and have many Hawaiian friends of all colors and ethnic backgrounds. It is my observation that most Hawaiians consider themselves Hawaiian first, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Polynesian, Filippino, Portuguese, English (and whatever) else second. Meaning, there is this whole "we're all Hawaiians" bond thing. I guess you are not one of those...

Again, I note that you fail to address CWL's factual points and instead concentrate on personal/personality attacks. Why not try arguing facts for a while instead of trading personal attacks?

[Thumper]

You're the epitome of the big-headed, self-righteous, pushy mainlander who comes to Hawaii thinking he knows it all, but knows absolutely nothing.

May be true...but who pays more bills; Dole fruit company or the big headed tourists?

I'd be more appreciative of the folks that keep the lights on.

Sorry about the "Skorzeny" reference, Bahadur...Old habits and all...

[The Nip]

Now that you admitted that you are a "full-blooded" Japanese-American in another thread, why not simply come out and admit that you hate Koreans and Taiwanese, and are unable to see through your prejudices?

I'm now sure how/why you've pieced together this fantasy, but what in the world makes you think I HATE anyone? On the contrary...

Being that I'm from Hawaii, I'm related (through marriage) to MANY Chinese/Taiwanese, and a handful of Koreans, also. Most of my best friends since childhood-- the guys I go drinking/shooting with-- are half Chinese, come to think of it. I hate them? I don't think so, buddy....but since you're a self-proclaimed expert in Hawaii's ethnic make-up through your vastly enlightening visits here...

That's a real tribute to Hawaiians - that, according to you, they'd engage in mob "justice" to punish someone for saying something they don't like.

Nevermind. Obviously, you haven't spent much time here. That sort of behavior is not only common, but accepted here...though only to punish "outsiders" when they start mouthing off for no reason. It's not something I'm proud of stating, but that's just how things are. What can I say?

Perhaps on your next visit, you might visit "homestead" land (ask your local friends what this means). That should give you a MUCH clearer view of how social interactions can erode here in Hawaii.

It is my observation that most Hawaiians consider themselves Hawaiian first, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Polynesian, Filippino, Portuguese, English (and whatever) else second.

You've observed wrong, yet again. Only Hawaiian "blooded" locals identify themselves as Hawaiian. The rest of us (the vast majority of the state) might identify ourselves as "hawaii boys" (again, go ask your local buddies how this works), but as far as ethnicity, identify first with our actual ethnic backgrounds.

Bahadur, in the short time I've been on this board I've noticed that the members here are generally much more educated, articulate and well-spoken than those on, say...GlockTalk. I won't question your stance on most issues because you're obviously much more capable than myself in addressing those matters.

Race relations in Hawaii, however, is not your area. Why this interests you, I have no idea....but rest assured that no matter how many "friends of all colors" you might have here, non-locals generally have a VERY hard time understanding this place.

With all due respect...


NIP

[Thumper]

what in the world makes you think I HATE anyone?
Well...
Fine...we'll stop sending free handouts and those primates can go back to climbing banana trees and eating bugs.

See any obvious clues there?

[The Nip]

Eating bugs and climbing trees (in search of bugs) is EXACTLY what most of these countries in question would be doing without the help of AMERICA, and OUR MONEY.

If you disagree, then support the complete abandonment of our aid for these countries.


NIP

[Thumper]

I'm confused...would they still be primates?

[The Nip]

If a people living in a geographically sound area containing numerous resouces cannot guide and govern themselves productively and efficiently, and cannot enact positive social interactions and proceducres which allow them to benefit and advance with technology, then yes....they're apparently primates.

Primates which, I might add, usually become burdens on American taxpayers.

I've had a few drinks tonight; pleeease don't get me started on Micronesia's effects on Hawaii.


NIP

[Thumper]

Wonder how much of a burden your beloved Japanese were to the American taxpayer during the '40s?

[The Nip]

Quite presumptuous of you, isn't that? My "beloved Japanese"? You may not realize it, but that statement reeks of the 1940's stereotype that "all japs stick other japs."

Don't worry....I'm not offended.

For the record, I could care less about Japanese issues, and I'm certainly not going to stick up for them. Fact is, Japan is beginning to disgust me as of late.

To be fair, however, I will venture a guess that the money the USA spent on rebuilding Japan after WWII doesn't come anywhere NEAR the amount we've spent on worthless 3rd-world countries (who later wage holy wars on us, or kill our economy with illegal immigrants) in the past ten years.

Just a guess....


NIP

[Thumper]

Quite presumptuous of you, isn't that? My "beloved Japanese"? You may not realize it, but that statement reeks of the 1940's stereotype that "all japs stick other japs."

Presumptuous? As has been pointed out in other threads, your motivations and affinities are about as unobtrusive as Bob Dole at a Ja Rule concert.

[Bahadur]

The Nip:
I'm now sure how/why you've pieced together this fantasy, but what in the world makes you think I HATE anyone? On the contrary...Uh, Thumper got to you first, but that "primate... banana tree... eating bugs" reference sure does sound suspect.
Nevermind. Obviously, you haven't spent much time here. That sort of behavior is not only common, but accepted here...though only to punish "outsiders" when they start mouthing off for no reason. It's not something I'm proud of stating, but that's just how things are. What can I say?We have such behavior on the mainland as well. I've seen it in Brooklyn, West Texas, South Central Los Angeles, what have you. It's called a "riot" or "mob attack." And the people who perpetrate such actions are called "thugs" and "criminals." I have spent much time in Hawaii, and I daresay that my friends there would be most displeased if I were to suggest that all, or even most, Hawaiians engage in such thuggish behavior. But then again, my Hawaiian friends are educated, rational people, not the kind who resort to violence just because a visitor expresses his dislike of something Hawaiian (most would just shrug and probably say something like "I am happy here. You can leave if you are unhappy here").

Perhaps your observances of such behavior as "routine" has more to do with where you live and whom you associate with than with Hawaii itself.
You've observed wrong, yet again. Only Hawaiian "blooded" locals identify themselves as Hawaiian. The rest of us (the vast majority of the state) might identify ourselves as "hawaii boys" (again, go ask your local buddies how this works), but as far as ethnicity, identify first with our actual ethnic backgrounds.Actually, I did not "observed wrong." I observed what I observed. You can certainly argue that what I experienced is atypical of Hawaiians, but that'd be too logical for you.

When I said that Hawaiians identify themselves as Hawaiian first something else second, I meant "Hawaii" as in the state, not Hawaiian "blood" as you call it. But it's nice to know that you distort what I say to suit whatever you feel like saying.
Bahadur, in the short time I've been on this board I've noticed that the members here are generally much more educated, articulate and well-spoken than those on, say...GlockTalk. I won't question your stance on most issues because you're obviously much more capable than myself in addressing those matters.You mean like a little fact of geography/biology like the fact that banana trees don't grow in Korea? Me thinks you need some travelling to countries you purport to know.

I don't know whether you've ever been to Taiwan or South Korea, but we don't really provide any aid to those countries anymore. They are both quite prosperous and technologically well-developed. I know it might be shocking for you, but South Korea actually has the highest broadband Internet usage per capita, not to mention one of the higest digital cellphone usage rates per capita in the world. If anything, these countries possess much better developed infrastructre technologically than, say, Hawaii does. Perhaps you should go climb banana trees and eat bugs.

You know what else? God knows I like Hawaii very much, but the work pace there drives me up the wall. I wouldn't call it that, but some people do call it "laziness." If it weren't for the US government and tourism, where would Hawaii be today? A bunch of failing plantations, that what.

If you have ever been to Taiwan or Korea, you'd know that, generally, Taiwanese and Koreans are exceptionally industrial, hard-working people. During the 1980s, these countries boasted perhaps the highest number of work hours per week (even higher than Japan). There was a joke that reflected this fact well: what do Korean workers think of the Japanese workers? Answer: very good workers, but a little lazy. Of course, this is only funny to us Westerners who think that the Japanese work ungodly high number of hours.
Quite presumptuous of you, isn't that? My "beloved Japanese"? You may not realize it, but that statement reeks of the 1940's stereotype that "all japs stick other japs."Not at all. You may think that Thumper and I are brainless morons with no memory, but you see, we do have it. We remember full well that you wanted the US to "allow" Japan to exterminate Korea and Taiwan during WWII in another thread. You have demonstrated, time and again, that you view the Japanese to be superior human beings to, say, Taiwanese, Chinese and Koreans. That's ignorant ethnic prejudice, last time I checked. Stop inverting and stop accusing Thumper of racism when it is you who need some history, biology, geography, anthropology (among others) lessons.
For the record, I could care less about Japanese issues, and I'm certainly not going to stick up for them. Fact is, Japan is beginning to disgust me as of late.I see, you have an "evolving" view of Japan that has changed in the last few days.
To be fair, however, I will venture a guess that the money the USA spent on rebuilding Japan after WWII doesn't come anywhere NEAR the amount we've spent on worthless 3rd-world countries (who later wage holy wars on us, or kill our economy with illegal immigrants) in the past ten years.Well, it's hard to argue with this since your definition of "third-world" is very broad and include some of the richest countries in the world. Suffice to say, in today terms, the amount of money we spent on the reconstruction of Japan and Europe was massive.
Just a guess....Next time, try some education rather than "just a guess" based on bizzarre racial prejudices and a complete absence of knowledge in basic geography.

[CWL]

Been in Hawaii since 1890

Letsee, that'd make you at least 113 years old, I guess we'd have to give you some slack due to your advanced age. Leaving Japan at that time would indicate that you left to escape the growing militarism and poverty to seek economic advantages in Hawaii's cane & pineapple fields. The only people to accept the Japanese in Hawaii were the Chinese, Philipino and Koreans. Fortunately, you are not the ambassador of Hawaiian heritage.

Don't think that everyone is ignorant or uneducated on this board, some of us have been around and been around again a few times, there is knowledge to be shared & learned. As with intelligence, ignorance, prejudice and stupidity is hard to hide.

[The Nip]

The only people to accept the Japanese in Hawaii were the Chinese, Philipino and Koreans. Fortunately, you are not the ambassador of Hawaiian heritage.

CWL, since you seem open to the idea, allow me offer you some "education" on the topic. On your quests "around and around again," you apparently picked up some wrong information.

First of all, Chinese were the first imported field workers in Hawaii. Soon after, the U.S. struck a deal with Japan's emperor to allow several thousand Japanese workers over; within a few years, the plantation owners had brought over 200,000 from Japan.

So contrary to your statement, Philipinos and Koreans had NOTHING to do with "accepting" Japs in Hawaii, as they were still snoozing in their homelands. The only people that "accepted" Japanese in Hawaii were, of course, the wealthy white plantation owners who found extremely hard-working and reliable laborers in the Japanese.

However, would you like to know WHY the plantation owners eventually requested workers from the Philippines and Korea?

The Japanese were getting too strong on plantations, building schools for their children (which the plantations owners promptly burned down), and forming what was beginning to look like a labor union. To combat this, the owners brought in Filipino workers; they assumed that Japs and Flips couldn't coexist peacefully, and the resulting conflicts would ruin any prospect of a Jap Union.

Unfortunately, it didn't work-- within five years, the Japanese formed a partnership with the Filipinos, and the first labor union in Hawaii was born.

That's why such a great partnership in politics and business still exists today, between old-time Japs and Flips.

SO, the plantation owners, now fearing that their Jap workers wouldn't be around much longer to work for them, decided THEN to bring in Koreans. I believe fewer than 5,000 Koreans were brought over, however, because the plantation owners preferred the Filipinos due to their work ethic. This was already in the early years of the 20th century.

See? You learn something new every day.


NIP

[Thumper]

Nip

Just for the record...are you still maintaning that you don't hold an ethnocentric view in favor of the Japanese?

After all, I wouldn't want to offend you by being presumptuous.

:rolleyes:

We try to have intelligent discussions here, but your blinding biases are blatant (Say that three times fast.). It's hard for folks to take you seriously on this particular subject.

[CWL]

Yeah, like the plantation owners ever invited Japanese to their Sunday dinner tables.

the Japanese formed a partnership with the Filipinos, -wasn't this to combat exploitation?

Like I said, the only ones to accept the Japanese in Hawaii were the Chinese, Philipinos and Koreans. Importation of labor to Hawaii is not the same as acceptance.

I suppose you are aware that the Japanese are originally descended from Korean stock? Gave Japan justification for invasion in 1600's as well as 1900's.

[The Nip]

Importation of labor to Hawaii is not the same as acceptance.

My fault...in your original post, I took your use of the word "accept" in a more literal sense. As in, the only people to "allow" them to enter Hawaii.

Like I said, the only ones to accept the Japanese in Hawaii were the Chinese, Philipinos and Koreans. Importation of labor to Hawaii is not the same as acceptance.

With your definition in mind, I'll again say that you are indeed wrong. If we're speaking of an emotional acceptance, building friendships or bonds, then you'd have to leave Koreans out of that equation. I say this only because the Chinese, Filipinos and Japanese were here early on (1880s), and had built a significant community structure LONG before the first wave of Koreans showed up nearly 30 years later.

If you need even more proof of that, do a search on "pidgin English" in Hawaii. It's basically a local creole, made of English, Japanese, Chinese, and Filipino (Illokano/Tagalog) words...no trace of Korean language in it.

SO, again, nobody "accepted" anyone into Hawaii. We all came at the same time, and all built relationships based on that. Nobody decided who was to be accepted here.

By the way, it is my firm belief that ethnocentrism preserves culture; ALL distinctive groups hold ethnocentric views regarding their cultural identity. It is also my firm belief that those who vehemently criticize ethnocentricm do so because they, themselves, lack a cultural identity to embrace (or the means/knowledge and capacity to do so).


NIP

[sixgun_symphony]

If FDR left Asia to the Asians, would the Japanese have attacked Pearl Harbour? Probably not.

The wars against Communist forces in Korea and Vietnam would have been avoided as Japan rather than the United States would have been engaged in there.

I think Charles Lindbergh was right about America First style armed nuetrality.

[Thumper]

By the way, it is my firm belief that ethnocentrism preserves culture; ALL distinctive groups hold ethnocentric views regarding their cultural identity. It is also my firm belief that those who vehemently criticize ethnocentricm do so because they, themselves, lack a cultural identity to embrace (or the means/knowledge and capacity to do so).

Interesting.

Now define racism.

[The Nip]

Ethnocentrism does NOT entail the hatred of other groups, as does "racism."

[Bahadur]

The Nip:
My fault...in your original post, I took your use of the word "accept" in a more literal sense. As in, the only people to "allow" them to enter Hawaii.You are absolutely correct about the chronology of Asian immigration to Hawaii. Koreans, for example, were basically thought of as scabs and brought in as such to break up "Japanese unions" in Hawaii.

But as you acknowledge already, CWL meant "accept" in a different context.
By the way, it is my firm belief that ethnocentrism preserves culture; ALL distinctive groups hold ethnocentric views regarding their cultural identity.A dictionary definition of "ethnocentrism" is the "belief in the superiority of one's own ethnic group." It is also an "overriding concern with race" (per www.dictionary.com).

The idea that one ethnic group is inherently superior to another is faulty and unscientific, and usually based on ignorance, fear and jealousy. The more educated people are, the less likely they are to hold "ethnocentric" views.
It is also my firm belief that those who vehemently criticize ethnocentricm do so because they, themselves, lack a cultural identity to embrace (or the means/knowledge and capacity to do so).My goodness, you love inversion, don't you? I vehemently criticize ethnocentrism, because it is unscientifc, flawed and wrong. I happen to hold a very strong cultural identity - I am an American, pure and simple. I am a product of the American culture, which allows for many ethnicities to coexist and build a prosperous and free society.

For me, whether or not you hold cretinous arguments has nothing to do with the fact that you are a Japanese- or Asian-American, but everything to do with the content of your character and the apparent limits of your education/knowledge.

sixgun_symphony:
If FDR left Asia to the Asians, would the Japanese have attacked Pearl Harbour? Probably not.You mean if FDR left Asia to the Japanese? Who knows. Maybe the Japanese imperialists would have been happy to enslave the millions of Asians and "leave it at that."

Using your logic, should we have left Europe to Europeans (Germans)? And when we are confronted by the alliance of the now Asian superpower of Japan and the European superpower of Germany, who'd have stood with us? Mexico?
The wars against Communist forces in Korea and Vietnam would have been avoided as Japan rather than the United States would have been engaged in there.Maybe, maybe not. Maybe instead of fighting commies, we'd be fighting German Nazis and Japanese imperialists, now with more resources. Or maybe we'd allied ourselves with the now beleaguered Soviet Union and fight the other two. Or maybe if we still kept our heads buried in the sand ("leave Eurasia - the Soviet Union - to Eurasians - Germans and Japanese"), we'd be all alone against an alliance of global tyranny.
I think Charles Lindbergh was right about America First style armed nuetrality.Lindbergh was no geopolitical strategist. People really ought to stick to things they know about (for him, that'd been flying and fame).

[Thumper]

Ethnocentrism does NOT entail the hatred of other groups, as does "racism."

Oh, you mean as exemplified in your "bug-eating primates" remark earlier. I see.

Let me give you still another definition: Ethnocentrism is the last refuge of the No-Account.

It is a false sense of pride based on the deeds of others who happen to share your skin color. It's baseless and unscientific, as Bahadur noted.

Again, if your esteem needs tweaking, how about simply referring to yourself as American. That pretty much trumps everything else anyway.

[The Nip]

I never claimed to be logical, nor did I claim to be free of ignorance. I'm not a fearful person, nor I am a jealous one; simply one that lives comfortably in a culturally-diverse atmosphere where ethnocentrism adds a flavor, if you will, to our always-peaceful and accepting traditions.

That sounds paradoxial, but trust me...it's not.

AND, if you bothered to read the same post you base my so-called "love of Japanese" on, you'll also notice another thing I said.

I'm an American, an American first and last. Though I often light-heartedly refer to myself as a "Jap," there's only idea, one country, that I'm willing to fight for. Don't ever be confused about that.


NIP

[Bahadur]

Beep, beep. Does not compute. Does not computer. Beep, beep. Internal inconsistency. Beep, beep.

Self-destruct sequence in ten, six, eight, three... Bang!

[The Nip]

I'm honestly surprised that this thread is still running. Are there any other questions you folks might like to ask? It appears that I've become quite a sideshow attraction for the more left-leaning members here....so hey, I'm game. Seriously.

Ask away.


NIP

[Thumper]

I never claimed to be logical, nor did I claim to be free of ignorance.

Good point. I'm done with this one.