[tango3065]

I have a bunch of pistol ammo that is in a controlled temp safe what is the shelf life?

[ACP230]

I've shot surplus rifle ammo from the 1970s and reloads from the 1980s. No problems at all.
I expect, kept in good conditions, my reloads might be able to outlast me.

I've even shot a few .357 reload that spent a couple of years rolling around in the trunck of my car. They didn't look pretty after that treatment, but they fired OK.

[Jim March]

Under those conditions (in the safe) I wouldn't be surprised by a 50-year shelf life. LONGER is possible. In fact, one reason we're still kinda guessing is that smokeless powder only goes back to about 1890ish in any quantity; black powder prior to that had a LOT less shelf life even with the same storage. Every once in a while we get stashes of WW1-era or so fodder that test-shoots well.

Under near-perfect conditions and smokeless powder with the round assembled well, literally hundreds of years is theoretically possible.

[R.H. Lee]

A good long time for factory centerfire ammo. Heat and humidity are what damages ammo. I think .22 rf may have a shorter lifespan.

[seed]

RileyMc, you stated that heat and humidity damages ammo. Is it obvious by looking at the ammo itself if it was damaged by these factors? Will there be obvious signs of corrosion? I recently acquired a bunch of Golden Sabers (.40 165 gr) from Tennessee. The boxes looked pretty bad, like they dealt with heat and humidity and pretty much lost the battle. But the rounds appear unaffected. I actually manually inspected almost every single round (275 of them) and only found one that I had to discard, due to setback. But none looked weather-damaged. I hope to test out a couple of random boxes in the near future, but it could be a little while. Meanwhile, I am hoping to sleep easy knowing that they will work, if and when I deploy them.

seed.

[max popenker]

Recently we shot plenty of 1942-made Rem-UMC .45ACP ammo from 1924-made Kongsberg M1914 (clone of M1911) and Tommy m1928A1. No failures or misfires, and I bet there was not much climate conditioning for this ammo during last 60+ years.

Even better example - recently my friend shot about 400 rounds of steel-cased German 7.92 PP Kurz ammo from Mp-43. There were about 30% dud rate, but you must remeber that this ammo spent last 60 years lying in the dirt somewhere in the Russian woods.

so guess for yourself.

[cuchulainn]

Yeah, the only problems I've ever had with old ammo were related to heat and humidity (shotgun shells that wouldn't eject due to probable swelling).

[Jim Watson]

Some of the WW II surplus .45 ACP that came back in a couple of years ago was getting erratic, probably due to heat in storage. Much was just fine.

I have the last box and a half of FCC 65 from the gun club I shot at in the 70s. It is great, I wish I had a truck load of it. I would store it inside and feel like I had a lifetime supply.

[Jim March]

Seed: before trusting that stuff as defensive ammo, you're going to have to extensively test them...at least 100 rounds worth.

The box damage isn't a great sign.

[seed]

Mr. March,

That's a good point...I'll definitely do that...Rather than test only a couple of boxes at first, I'll test at least four (25 rounds per box). Thanks.

seed.

[Art Eatman]

I'm still shooting some USGI .45 ACP stuff marked "EC 43" and it's always been reliable. I've had the darned stuff since back in the 1970s.

I'm almost done shooting up some .243 ammo I reloaded in 1968, and some other ammo from the early 1970s. Some of my father's 1975 .220 Swift reloads still give me groups inside one MOA...

Art

[Jim March]

Seed: my main concern is that defensive ammo (for use against humans or dangerous animals) must be held to a FAR higher standard than any other type. Followed by hunting ammo, followed by target/competition, followed by plinking.

I would sample at least small amounts from ALL the boxes, and from each end of each box's original layout if possible (you may have already re-packed them?). This is based on possible heat or moisture damage to one end. In total I'd shoot at least 100 rounds.

I would also visually inspect each one. This is something I do with ALL prospective carry (or home defense) ammo. Any dings, or funny-shaped JHP cavities or whatever, go into the "practice grade" pile. OK, maybe that's incredibly anal :) but...seems worth it to me even if it's only psychological. (Admittedly, I'm fond of 38+P 158 lead hollowpoints which seem to get a high percentage of "funky lopsided noses" as the soft lead gets run through the big machines at the happy bangthing factory.)

Remember: your confidence in your gear, training and mindset will all be reflected on your face if things go Quentin Tarantino one fine day :scrutiny:. That in turn drives goblins off with no shots fired (usually - but don't bet your life on that alone, it's just a nice thing when it happens).

That's why every little "confidence drill" you run has value.

[seed]

Thanks Jim for your concern. I will most likely take your advice on testing from each box. But I am still wondering if you can visually tell if there has been any humidity damage to the rounds. What are the signs? The ones I have look clean and do not give any hints of damage. I would have absolutely freaked if they didn't. Hell, I don't know why I didn't freak when I saw the boxes...I guess I'm getting older and chilling out...

seed.

[Jim March]

Seed: *humidity* issues will (usually, bordering on always) be visible...but plain ol' dry heat damage may NOT be.

Heat can cause the powder to "chemically separate". Normally, that means the net explosive power goes down but some percentage will turn into something more or less similar to "primer material". This happens MUCH faster with Black Powder as it's three items just dry-blended but it happens to smokeless too.

My pop explained this in more detail many years ago. When he got out of the British Army engineering corps after action in Suez and Cyprus in the '50s, some oil companies in North Africa wanted to hire him to clean up old land mines and general munitions left over from Rommel's adventures :scrutiny:. This tendency for powder and chemically similar explosives (nitroclycerin/nitrocellulous and similar) to become unstable over time (and heat, among other things) is one reason he wouldn't touch that job for all the money in Africa.

(The other is a tendency for spring-loaded firing pin retainers to rust out and allow a boom if barely nudged, even if they were originally designed to go off only when a tank rolls over 'em :eek:. Lesson: DO NOT play with old munitions!!!)

Back to your case: gunpowder degredation can happen even with no visible outward signs at all. It is NOT that likely, mind you, not for the era ammo you're dealing with! But spot-checking in the fashion I've outlined will catch it if it's going on.

Ah! Another thing: when you're test-firing, listen and feel for fairly consistent recoil and noise. If some rounds have had their powder come partially unglued, I'd guess it may be possible to listen/feel for the differences. There will be small variations between rounds with ANY factory ammo, that's normal enough...but this *might* be in a whole 'nuther realm.

If it's REALLY bad, peak power will drop in some rounds enough to cause jams/feeding issues in a semi-auto. It would have to be damned extreme though. Still, testing 'em in a gun that you know isn't a major jammer may be wise...disregard for revolvers of course :D.

[SteelyDan]

Is there any risk or danger in shooting old ammo that, externally, appears to be in good shape? I mean, for target practice or something, where a jam or malfunction is not an issue.

[seed]

Thanks again Mr. March. I will be following your advice upon my test of these batches. I do feel confident though that they will be okay... I guess I'm becoming an optimist... But if there is heat or humidity damage, will the effects show up down the road, long after they are removed from the heat and or humidity exposure (will a degradation continue even after they have been removed from the harsh environment)...or will the damage have been completed during that time and be evident immediately upon firing them (be it soon or years from now)? Thanks.

Seed.

[seed]

One more thing... I remember reading about how the U.S. military stores all of its medicine in these facilities where the interior temperatures reach 125+ degrees! And so they feel a need to rotate their supply of medicine every couple of years or whatever. Anyway, everybody is probably familiar with the drug company expiration dates on pills and such. Well, a study was done and found that save for such things as some antibiotics, medications do not suffer potency reductions over time...not even in the conditions mentioned above. I believe they did say that humidity could pose a problem, but if the meds are all sealed they should be good. But shockingly :rolleyes: the drug companies feel that it is still important for them to throw out perfectly good meds to replace them with new ones every year or two years or whatever...even if they were stored in cooler conditions as most people do with their personal meds.

Anyway, I only bring this up because maybe someone heard something similar or contrary to this when it comes to modern era ammo. Mr. March mentioned that it is not that likely for modern era to degrade under hot conditions...Certainly not as likely as with older technology Black powder ammo. But maybe there is nothing to worry about at all. I wonder if the military does anything to limit the exposure of ammo to heat...and if not, what seems to be the effect? Did Vietnam (HOT and humid as hell) pose challenges to protecting ammo, or did it come through with flying colors. And Iraq: HOT and dry as hell. Are they doing anything extracurricular to protect stores of ammo. And if not, what have been the effects? What about the effects of cold weather? Hunters could certainly contribute valuable information about this...And about wet conditions as well. I for one am interested in all of this.

seed.

[Jim K]

About a year ago, I fired some .45-70 ammo made in 1888. I had only five rounds I wanted to sacrifice, but four went off first try and fifth went on second. Folks, that stuff was 115 years old.

Actually, smokeless powder can deteriorate if all the acid has not been removed from it (common in wartime production) but black powder is a pure physical mixture and will probably never deteriorate. Around 10 years ago, I asked a powder expert from Hercules how long modern powder and primers would last, given proper storage. He replied that no one knows, because they have not been around long enough.

Jim

[Jim March]

SteelyDan: the only target shooting risk is that cases which are severely corroded may "blow out" on firing and spray hot gasses down the magazine, causing a chain-fire or blowing the mag out.

Only such an extreme situation (clearly visible) could cause a safety issue based on target shooting.

Ammo reliabililty for defensive purposes is of far greater concern.

[sigman4rt]

Anyone here have a guess on the shelf life of ammo stored in a sealed ammo can in my shed. Temp variations of 85-90 degres in summer to -10 in winter. shed is unheated so temp change is relatively slow. Thanks in advance

[seed]

Sigman4rt. Sorry you didn't get an answer and I am afraid that I don't have one. But I will say that I did a little bit of searching in this forum and on XDtalk.com about damaged ammo, due to heat and moisture. From what I can tell, the biggest threat to ammo is highly penetrative solvent-containing chemicals, used to clean and or lube. As for heat and or moisture, I have yet to come across anything by someone who has used ammo exposed to temperature and or humidity variations who experienced any adverse effects on the ammo, upon use. In other words, the ammo worked just fine in all cases. I did read about one case where a guy shot some Golden Sabers with unspecified damage where there was a problem of bullets not achieving full velocity. But he did not know what caused the damage, only that he got it cheap at some pawn shop.

So, you might consider trying it out and answering the question yourself. If you do, just don't rapid fire in case a round has damaged powder and fails to fully push a bullet out of the barrel. I doubt this will happen, but it doesn't hurt to be cautious with this batch. If you do test it out, please post the results. Good luck.

seed.

P.S. What ammo is it?

[sigman4rt]

I have a ton of Aussie 762 and a ton of .45 ACP. Too much to store inside the house. Guess I'll store as much inside as possible then shoot the stuff stored in cans outside first. The 762 is in factory sealed ammo cans, the .45 is warmed in the sun then sealed in .50 cal ammo cans (it kinda vacum seals the can).