This could be tomorrow


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Min
February 15, 2003, 03:25 PM
This just in: three massive bombs have detonated concurrently within a U.S. city, taking out the electrical power grid, and some communications systems. Early reports estimate civilian casulties to be high, possibly in the hundreds if not thousands, since one of the bombs exploded in a busy commercial and shopping district.

A sense of terrible fear and dread has gripped the country with the realization that the worst concerns have come true. The national security level has now been raised to red. Law enforcement of all branches scramble to keep the order. TVs all over the country are tuned into the news, with 24 hour reports of the situation. All regular programming is suspended. People are terrified there will be more bombs elsewhere. People don't know whether to stay or flee.

Grocery stores, Walmarts, Home Depots report mass invasions of people coming in and cleaning out the shelves of everything from canned food to water to shovels and emergency gas generators.

Banks close. Schools close. Federal buildings close. People still go to work in the morning, but there is a somber air everyday. An eerie quietness permeates the country as citizens brace for yet more bombs or whatever else may occur.

Gun stores, sporting goods stores that sell firearms sell out all their inventory. There is a shortage of firearms, and ammunition. People begin to see a slow but steady rise in prices of ammunition and firearms. Soccer moms and little old church ladies who normally wouldn't be caught dead with a gun in their possession are now suddenly packing a .357 Magnum or a 9mm semi-automatic.

Whole communities of Arab-Americans are harassed and ostracized, with occassional acts of violence occurring against them. Mosques close, for fear of the American public. Churches from Catholic to Protestant to Jehovah's Witness see a sharp rise in attendance.

Another threat comes up - people who were dispossessed or disenfranchised anre delighted with the situation, and roam the urban and suburban landscape looking to loot or steal or rob. Citizens stay at home and lock themselves in.

Here's the situation for you the high road members out there. You have to go get more gasoline and other supplies, and thus have to brave the streets in one of the more dangerous areas. You drive your SUV through the streets and see bands of men on foot, you hear their laughter and their shouts echo into your car.

Your wife stays at home with a shotgun or a handgun to protect your children. What do you carry on your mission?

This could be tomorrow. Are you prepared for it?

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Tady45
February 15, 2003, 03:37 PM
Yikes, All we would need here in LA, is any opening for our large criminal population to go on a rampage ie the Rodney King riots. As for being ready, yes & no. I do have lots of ammo however. Very possible situation indeed, the FEDS would have to step in (if they could) and impose some type of marshall law. Who knows, maybe that is we are heading...


Larry

Diesle
February 15, 2003, 03:56 PM
OK, I have kind of a small brain but let me try to process this...

Hundreds, or possibly thousands of people have been killed in 1 US city as a result of the first real threat to come to North American soil in almost 3 years. This small disturbance creates a level of panic and riot that potentially threatens you and yours. Banks close. Schools close. Federal buildings close blah blah blah.... Silly!


Terrorists haven’t (struck) in North America in a long time. And, really, do they need to. Alarmists like you fuel their fire quite well thank you. I’m sure they love our (American) response thus far. Run and scurry like hell....!!! Get duck tape and plastic.... Code maroon, code magenta.... It’s embarrassing.

Ya, I’m ready. I’m ready to overcome, adapt, and adjust. I’m not ready to pacify myself in the knowledge that I have 10 cans of beans and 50 gallons of water in my basement. Oh, and some duct tape.

Diesle

(EDITED to remove language that would have offended Grandma Gwinn)

Pistolsmith
February 15, 2003, 03:59 PM
Sounds like a slow weekday in downtown Seattle. Couldn't you have thrown in a biological attack and a couple of nukes coming in from North Korea? And what about an invasion from Alpha Centauri? Or an extremely large asteroid the size of the moon landing in downtown Little America?
Why "what if" yourself to death? If you have ever been in real combat you know that you just have to take it one hour at a time. You count your blessings...dry sox, waterproof boots, a warm jacket. You measure your life in seconds. You expect the worst, hope for the best and hang an extra clip on your rifle sling close at hand. And, you had better have some kind of CB radio in your 4WD vehicle. If you try to scope it all out in advance, you will find that nothing is going to work out as planned. This is one time you have to "play it by ear."

Min
February 15, 2003, 04:03 PM
Hundreds, or possibly thousands of people have been killed in 1 US city as a result of the first real threat to come to North American soil in almost 3 years. This small disturbance creates a level of panic and riot that potentially threatens you and yours. Banks close. Schools close. Federal buildings close blah blah blah.... Silly!


It may be silly, but FEMA doesn't seem to think so. The American way is to be prepared.

Besides, if this is your mindset, why carry or own a gun at all in your everday life?

Diesle
February 15, 2003, 04:10 PM
Besides, if this is your mindset, why carry or own a gun at all in your everday life?

If this is more than rhetorical, youl have to help me understand your question better.

I cant correlate how my mindset... ("Ya, I’m ready. I’m ready to overcome, adapt, and adjust. I’m not ready to pacify myself in the knowledge that I have 10 cans of beans and 50 gallons of water in my basement.")... should identify me as a person who is not likely to own guns...


Diesle

Justin
February 15, 2003, 04:21 PM
*sigh*

I actually clicked the link to this thread thinking it would be something interesting.
Truth be told, I stopped clicking on threads titled 'SHTF' a few months ago.

I think that a lot of the people who sit around and dream up elaborate scenarios about TEOTWAWKI should go find a gaming group and play Twilight 2000 or Shadowrun.:rolleyes:

Chris Rhines
February 15, 2003, 04:54 PM
Hey! I resent that! :D

- Chris

Greg L
February 15, 2003, 05:01 PM
Here's the situation for you the high road members out there. You have to go get more gasoline and other supplies, and thus have to brave the streets in one of the more dangerous areas. You drive your SUV through the streets and see bands of men on foot, you hear their laughter and their shouts echo into your car.

This is why you should have a couple of weeks worth of whatever you need at home. If something big did happen you would be much better off sitting at home keeping an eye on your family rather than competing with the roving bands of thugs or the frantic soccer mommies getting in fistfights at Home Depot over plastic sheeting and duct tape.

After a couple of weeks you should have a better idea if things are getting back to normal or if it is TEOTWAWKI. :D

Greg

Gordon
February 15, 2003, 05:16 PM
Lets see, on the only way into our canyon I could go to mouth and drop a 4'diameter tree or two across road with my chain saw. Some of the neighbors would join me in making it most unpleasant for anyone to cut thru tree or climb over, you can't go around. We would have to meet needs of the hundred or so people in the canyon, most are'conservative' others would probably be hysterical. If I was to man road block or patrol my fairly self sufficient small ranch I'd use FNfal by day if I wasn't moving around much. And m-14 with ANPVS-2 at night. If I had to 'patrol' I'd use Colt 'sporter' preban with ANPVS attached at night or my ColtAR-15 preban with M-4 upper for day hikes. Always carrying Stainless custom 1911 with Sparks Six pack. I keep my Barret 82a1 in safe in shop on rise in orchard for invading vehicles. Only invading vehicles around here are gonna be lowrider chevies and Hondas with wide wheels and loud exhausts.:D

ahadams
February 15, 2003, 05:23 PM
lessee:

off the beaten path already: check

gravity fed water supply: check

gravity operated sewer system: check

primary and secondary heating sources functional: check

enough food to last a while: check

almost everybody in the area owns and knows how to use firearms: check

hmm, guess if the electricity is still up locally I'll wander over to my sister and brother in law's place and watch the Fox News Channel coverage of y'all having fun!:D

TallPine
February 15, 2003, 07:32 PM
Yeah, I can just picture it now ... the whole country is in fear and total disorder, so the coyotes start takiing advantage and all come out in rowdy roving gangs to raid the sheep herds, chicken house, rabbit pens, etc.

Where's my 243 ...?

:D

RCL
February 16, 2003, 09:15 AM
:rolleyes:
Seems to me this has happened already. On Sept 11, 2001. Three "weapons" were crashed in to buildings. Thousands died. However, society didn't fall into mass caos. Maybe we bought more weapons and ammo (prudent thing to do anyway), maybe we became more aware and better prepared (a "wake up call"). But I didn't see the fall of western civilization. We handled it for the most part. Lets give ourselves a little more credit, avoid the hysteria, and be prepared.

Redlg155
February 16, 2003, 10:56 AM
The chances of something happening like this are extemely remote. But since we are speculating, here is another worry to add to the list.

Anyone have a prison nearby? How about a large county jail? In the event of a disaster just how long do your figure they can be held in their confines before escaping or being let loose? No transportation equals no food shipments and medication. Prisons, such as the one I work at are not self sufficient except for the water supply. Full scale riots would be in effect and outside LE agencies would be unavailable. The National Guard would also be otherwise committed. Because of this and other factors, many Correctional Officers would not show up for work.

You can bet during a serious terrorist attack prisons will be a primary target.

What better way to creat chaos than to set loose thousands of convicts throughout the nation? Who doesn't have a prison nearby? In my area alone we have two facilities with approx 1100 in each, plus a large county jail and annex.

Good Shooting
RED

Blackhawk
February 16, 2003, 11:07 AM
Don't have an SUV, and if they're laughing, things must not be as bad as you think. They're usually not.... :rolleyes:

TarpleyG
February 16, 2003, 12:27 PM
Lest we forget 9/11. We are already IN tomorrow fellows in case no one noticed. Look at what was described in the original post. Some, if not most, of that happened shortly afterward.

GT

Pistolsmith
February 16, 2003, 12:31 PM
We'll get used to it, since this mess will continue for hundreds of years.

12-34hom
February 16, 2003, 12:41 PM
The sky is falling!!!

12-34hom.

Min
February 16, 2003, 02:06 PM
Well, this may never happen, and I will be all too glad for that.

But let's answer these questions shall we?

Is the motivation to destroy Americans on American soil in the most destructive way possible there? YEP.

Is the manpower to carry out this type of destruction available? YEP.

Is the means - both financial and logistical - there? YEP.

Have something of this destructive scale occurred in the past? YEP.

So, to all those who say this could never happen or is some SHTF fantasy crap, well I'd like to hear logical arguments that you think it can't happen.

I just want to raise awareness that the US has enemies - they are vicious, they are real.

2dogs
February 16, 2003, 02:17 PM
Sounds like a slow weekday in downtown Seattle.

Hey, how's about we all meet at the Lenin statue and sing "Kumbaya"?:neener:

Justin
February 16, 2003, 02:38 PM
Hey! I resent that!

-Chris Yes, but to determine if you resemble that remark, please roll 2d4. :)

Pistolsmith
February 16, 2003, 02:47 PM
Justin:
You misquoted Garfield. He said: "I resemble that remark!"

ahadams
February 16, 2003, 02:49 PM
Hi Min,

I'll admit to having a generally low opinion of these sorts of scenarios. If I'd thought they were completely impossible we wouldn't have moved to a rural area...well I grew up in rural areas so we probably would have moved eventually, maybe - I've known people in the burbs who kept saying they were going to move right up to the point they went into a nursing home.

I would however submit that there are several factors in play here which make any realistic scenario building highly unlikely:

1. Insufficient reliable data available on which to base scenarios. By this I mean there is too much we don't know. I did some of my army time driving a desk as an intel analyst. From that experience I can state categorically that we do not have more than about 50 percent of the reliable info available. Those of us on the outside never do.

2. In conjunction with the above, neither we, nor the feds can know the full extent of the b.g.'s actual capabilities within CONUS at this point. Much has been disrupted, and in many areas they no longer have anything resembling a coherent organization. None the less, there is no way that all of the sleeper cells (deep cover, or whatever you want to call them) have been rooted out since that's the nature of sleepers. Nor do we know if any of those yet undiscovered cells have the logistic support in place to carry out their orders...or the comms capacity to receive the orders...or...well you get the idea.

3. Because of 1 and 2 above (combined with wild cards like the NK three stage nuke capable missile which can hit North America...of course that's also the size of the target -a continent- they have to aim at to hit anything at that range...), and various biohazards which will become more likely as warmer weather gets here (germs don't do well in snow); and so forth, any attempt to predict what may or may not happen in a given urban area will be a crap shoot.

I would therefore respectfully suggest that if you cannot get out of dodge before the stuff hits the great whirling blades in copious quantities, well, unless you prepare for everything, a false sense of preparedness may be one of your worst enemies.

just my 2 cents' worth

Pistolsmith
February 16, 2003, 03:03 PM
Speaking of enemies, there were millions of them demonstrating for no war and preservation of the status quo for a brutal dictator. There are many American born citizens whose politics demands that they intervene in anything that will prevent bio and chemical attacks on the U.S. After all, in their strange convoluted thinking, attacks against the U.S. prove that the government is corrupt and the citizens are all sheep. Their "power to the people" thinking means "power to radical people through acts of disobedience and terrorism." Although they are allowed by the bill of rights, they are to be numbered among protectors of the enemy and primary deflectors of international justice.

ahadams
February 16, 2003, 03:32 PM
Good point Pistolsmith! though given their utter disregard for all things western, I'm surprised none of the heavy duty overseas type b.g. have taken advantage of any of the useful idiot rallies (either here or in europe) to pop one or more surprises.

Zundfolge
February 16, 2003, 03:52 PM
Min, there are some flaws in your scenario ... common flaws that are made because most people believe the lies told about the American people by the left. :rolleyes:


What you describe is pretty much what happened on 9/11 and America didn't go to hell in a hand basket ... Americans did NOT start attacking Muslim/Arab Americans. Even though the mainstream/leftist media tried desperately to make it look like white Americans where putting together lynch mobs, there where only a handful of anti Muslim/arab hate crimes because of 9/11 ... if anything the American people (especially whites) have become too PC about arabs to the point of endangering us even more.


I figure the American people will show their true colors if another large terrorist attack happens. They will show that they are honorable, decent, compassionate and united people ... despite what the leftists who control the media, the governments of our so-called allies in Europe and the Democrat party think of us.

Blackhawk
February 16, 2003, 04:00 PM
Is the motivation to destroy Americans on American soil in the most destructive way possible there? YEP.

Is the manpower to carry out this type of destruction available? YEP.

Is the means - both financial and logistical - there? YEP.

Have something of this destructive scale occurred in the past? YEP.


1. Some whackos have that motivation, but so what?

2. Disagree with the manpower being available.

3. Disagree on the means.

4. Disagree on the historical precedent. The 3k at the WTC on 9/11 amount to 0.00107% of the Americans on American soil. Every year, 15 times that many die in car crashes. At the time, nobody was paying much attention, either.

Justin
February 16, 2003, 04:18 PM
What Zundfolge said.

I'm not saying that one shouldn't be prepared for a bad situation, but to sit around and dream up such a specific scenario really doesn't offer any insight into getting through a difficult situation. Such a convoluted scenario would have way too many variables to even consider, let alone plan for.

Dreaming up such things might be amusing for those bound by the drab, soft-walled reality of cubicleland, but is really nothing more than just a step or two below a role-playing game.

Once you get beyond the basics, you've gone from being prepared for an emergency to engaging in a mental jerk-fest.
To my way of thinking, you'd be much better off planning for more mundane things: being housebound due to heavy snow/bad weather, first aid training in the event emergency services are temporarily unavailable (what do I do in the event of a deep laceration or broken bone?) and basic security. (In other words, while it may be cool to have that web gear, the likelyhood that you'll ever use it in a for-real situation is bound to be slim to none.) While I like (love) guns, and think it's a good idea to have a bunch of ammo on hand, I doubt I'll ever be in a situation where I'll have to be loaded out like a one-man ninja army.

Sorry, but all of this fantasizing about the collapse of human civilization is nothing more than backwoods beer-belly-Bob BS*.
:rolleyes:

*No offense meant if you happen to live in a rural area, drink beer, have a belly, are named Robert, Robin, Rob, or any other name that can be easily transformed into 'Bob.'

Safety First
February 16, 2003, 07:13 PM
What was that quote by a great leader? " All we have to fear is fear itself" While that may not be 100% true,the main thing is to be ready,keep extra food,water,batterys,etc..you know the drill...
But for the love of God, don't go off the deep end..keep your eyes and ears open, your firearms ready, and go to work, and leave the rest to God and the government. The terrorist want us to live in fear, and if we do live in fear they have won at least 1/2 of the war. So to each his own,as for me and my family we are reasonably prepared but will not let the maniac terrorist cause us to tremble and hide..just my 2 cents worth...

Min
February 16, 2003, 07:55 PM
Who said anything about fear? You all are obsviously misinterpreting my idea of "preparedness" - see, I am born again, and when one of these terrorist acts take me out I shall be going to heaven! Amen. :D

Until then, I am equipping my new sports car with a survivalist package - MSR Whisperlite stove, dried food, a Glock 19, knives, fire-starting implements, a Cavalry Arms AR15, flashlights, a portable radio, etc. etc.

jmbg29
February 16, 2003, 08:55 PM
Hey, how's about we all meet at the Lenin statue and sing "Kumbaya"?Are you in Freemont? LOL :D

I'm on Vashon, the Island Of Misfit Toys.:uhoh: :scrutiny: :evil:

Pistolsmith
February 16, 2003, 11:15 PM
You mean Toyotas that wash up on the beaches of Puget Sound?

12.7x99mm
February 17, 2003, 09:41 AM
"Sounds like a slow weekday in downtown Seattle. "

Yeah I can just see if there is really bad terrorist attack in the Puget sound metro area. The Seattle liberal socialist nut cases will be doing something bad.

Anything to get the riot on with those people.

I can just see them leaving the metro area in hordes and then breaking up and scattering through the outer areas in groups

Not fun and it seriously could happen.

Art Eatman
February 17, 2003, 10:06 AM
9/11 showed us that most any scenario is possible. It sorta split us into two main mindsets: One, to get even and try to make sure those who would do that sort of thing won't be around for a repeat. The other, "If we'd be nicer, they'd leave us alone."

If there is a repeat of a 9/11 style of event, this latter group will go berzerkoid. The Mediahcrities will go bat-guano, hyping the event in order to sell advertising and create excitement. The probable reality is that outside of that immediate area, nothing's gonna happen.

It seems to me that the better part of wisdom for those not living near the epi-center of the mess would be to continue with daily life. My caveat would be that one not lollygag around in Condition White...

:), Art

Pistolsmith
February 17, 2003, 11:02 AM
12.7X99:
You might want to remember what some unknown person did in the riots of the 1960's near the U fo Dub.
As the rioters were doing their thing, a small pickup truck with a single occupant drove up to the middle of the crowd and dumped out a hive of suddenly angry bees. The comrades hated that more than the tear gas. The beekeper didn't like it too much, though.
If this happened today, you'd be able to laugh yourself to sleep after watching the 11 o'clock news on channel 7.

mjustice
February 17, 2003, 11:03 AM
How can a scenario like this happen when we have so many "enlightened" human shields here? :)

Seriously, though, if something like you described were to happen, I would think that any real civil unrest would be localized. Outside of the major cities I think the rest of America would try and wait it out with what they have.

MJ

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