Open carrier needs recording device


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BB62
July 18, 2004, 11:08 AM
I am an open carrier at times here in the backward state of Ohio. Last year I was accosted by 3 police officers, at gunpoint, while doing so. No charges were filed. (It is a long story, which I posted to GlockTalk)

Here is a link: http://tinyurl.com/6vgay

Rather than try and hijack another thread on the subject of open carry or confiscated weapons (which generated an enormous amount of interest, fire and brimstone), may I ask the following question here:

Does anyone know of a small audio & video device I could purchase to attach to myself while openly carrying? Knowing of the lengths to which some Ohio anti's will go makes me wonder if I ought to go to greater lengths to document my armed exercise walks in case false statements were made.

I would appreciate serious responses, not another "Right on, bro!" or "You're crazy" thread.

Thanks much.


BB62

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Sindawe
July 18, 2004, 12:43 PM
Just thinking off the top of my head here, you may need a rig with a seperate camera/audio pickup and recording base unit. Maybe about the size of a paperback or big PDA, something like this:

http://www.tral.ru/en/

And a camera/audio set from these guys.

http://www.spyworld.com/Covert-Video.htm


Interesting idea BB62, I'm suprised we are'nt seeing this on LEOs. Might help them out immensly with training situtions and legal issues. Specially if they all feed back to a central storage environment held by a neutral party. Hmmm.......

You will want to check out the local/state laws on recording conversations and the like. IIRC some municipalites require two party conset, some only one. This is what tripped up Linda Tripp during the Clintion/Monica days.

Creepy/bothersome story about your run-in with LEOs in Ohio. I grew up in that part of the state, and while I was most distressed when my family moved to Colorado in 1975, I'm darn glad now that we did. Pretty country, but a bit lacking for snowboarding.

:D

Wildalaska
July 18, 2004, 01:51 PM
No offense but what kind of life do you want? Wiring yourself for sound just in case you get stopped while flaunting a gun....

Sometimes......


WildwhateverAlaska

spartacus2002
July 18, 2004, 02:25 PM
Go get a small dictaphone cassette recorder at Radio Shack. I carried one when I was going thru custody battle. Was about the size of a 1911 mag. Every time I went to my ex-wife's door to pick up or drop off the kid, I had it in my jeans pocket turned on, to record their screaming and cussing.

At court, her and her mom claimed I was making threats and that they were sweet as pie. My lawyer played the tapes for the judge.

Victory tastes very, very sweet.... :D

THe nice thing was that it recorded just fine, even stuffed into a pants pocket.

BB62
July 18, 2004, 04:15 PM
Yes, I have a pocket audio recorder - but I want to have video capability too.

I put nothing by the anti's considering the stories I've heard.


BB62

Pilgrim
July 18, 2004, 04:21 PM
Some states have some ridiculous laws prohibiting this kind of recording that you suggest. Be sure you know Ohio's laws before recording an exchange with an officer. To be legal you may have to announce you are recording the exchange.

Pilgrim

whm1974
July 18, 2004, 04:33 PM
To be legal you may have to announce you are recording the exchange.

This is almost everywhere... To be Honest with you, cops may not try anything if they know that they are being recorded.

-Bill

sendec
July 18, 2004, 04:49 PM
"Cops may not try anything....."

It is rapidly becoming the norm that LEOs have in car video and audio and that they wear wireless mikes, so that THEY can record the contact. After a lot of initial resistance, many have realized that this is a good thing that has quashed any number of bogus complaints about us "trying things"

I was recorded by citizens on several occasions I knew of and I am certain on some I did not. Usually when I spotted the recorder I told them just to take it out of concealment and hold it up at head level, the recording quality would be better.

Anywho, if you want to live the life of a paranoid whacko, I'd recommend the Panasonic line of surveillance recorders which work far better than the cheezy ones you get from Radio Shack but do not cost a gazillion bucks like a body wire does. Mine would fit in a hat or a pack of cigarettes and could pick up flatulence from a fly, sorry, I dont know the model number.

I just hope that the crinkling sound of all the tin foil doesnt ruin the recording.:scrutiny:

R.H. Lee
July 18, 2004, 04:53 PM
Problem is, IF you are arrested, your recording device will be consfiscated and any incriminating evidence agains the cops will be "lost".

On my way to the store for more Reynolds wrap. Back later.

BB62
July 18, 2004, 06:03 PM
Sendec,

Are the Panasonic recorders you mentioned for VIDEO recording?

I'm not worried about the cops - does no one read anymore? - I am concerned about the die-hard antis out there who would think nothing of swearing out a complaint that I was grasping for or waving my sidearm around.


BB62

Ironbarr
July 18, 2004, 06:11 PM
"flaunting"?

sendec
July 18, 2004, 06:58 PM
Sorry, I was refering to audio recorders. For on-person video you'll wind up spending at least $1,000 up for anything of any quality. You'll aslo need to restrict your movements to withing a couple hundred feet of a recorder and receiver.

I do a real careful needs assessment before I shelled out that kinda money.....

IRONFIST
July 18, 2004, 07:43 PM
I too am curious about the word "flaunting". If a citizen is legally able to openly carry his/her PDW and is not acting in a provocative or unsafe manner, how can that be construed as "flaunting"? I personally would like to see more open carrying by the upstanding members of our population to reinforce the truth to the sheeple that not everyone who carries a gun is a bad guy or a cop. If the term "flaunting" is used to describe a citizen who is openly carrying and exercising his second-ammendment rights, would that mean that when he buys and reads a newspaper he is "flaunting" his first-ammendment rights? I don't believe that that was what WildAlaska intended to infer, and will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Wildalaska
July 18, 2004, 08:45 PM
Yep flaunting..I ve made my position on open carry in non outdoors environments (read farms, wilderness etc) perfectly clear over and over..I think its wrong both tactically and in terms of the impression we are trying to make.

Abused open carry is gonna screw it up for the rest of us.


WildflauntflauntAlaska

Ironbarr
July 18, 2004, 08:48 PM
From American Heritage and others.
flaunt ( P ) Pronunciation Key (flônt)
v. flaunt·ed, flaunt·ing, flaunts
v. tr.
To exhibit ostentatiously or shamelessly: flaunts his knowledge. To show contempt for; scorn.

v. intr.
To parade oneself ostentatiously; show oneself off.
To wave grandly: pennants flaunting in the wind.


flaunting

n : the act of displaying something ostentatiously; "his behavior was an outrageous flaunt" [syn: flaunt]I guess it was just semantics - happens all the time with me.

-Andy

Ironbarr
July 18, 2004, 09:03 PM
Hmmm... I recind my sideways apology.

As for "the rest of us" - if "the rest of us" would participate in open carry (wherever available, of course) may we wouldn't be in this thread needling each other.

Oh well.

BB62
July 18, 2004, 11:08 PM
Okay, now we're into the good/bad discussion - which has been beaten to death all over THR... <sigh>

Does anyone else have any other suggestions for equipment to do what I am looking to do?


Thx,
BB62

Treylis
July 18, 2004, 11:08 PM
Abused open carry is gonna screw it up for the rest of us.

Remember, don't use those pesky rights, because somebody might just take them away!

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to that position if more states allowed legal adults and not just 21/23/25-year-olds to carry concealed or carry without a permit. Almost everywhere, if you're under 21, it's either going to be open or illegal.

Hawkmoon
July 19, 2004, 01:27 AM
This is almost everywhere... To be Honest with you, cops may not try anything if they know that they are being recorded.
Nope. This is almost nowhere. What IS illegal in some jurisdictions is recording a telephone conversation without the other party's knowledge. Even with phone conversations, though, in some jusrisdictions it is legal as long as ONE of the parties has consented to the recoring. If you are one of the parties and you're doing thr recording, you're good to go.

I am not aware of anywhere in the U.S. where it is illegal for one person to record a conversation between him/herself and another individual(s) -- ignoring for the moment the possibility of prohibitions applying to secure areas of facilities and the like, which are not the subject of the question.

Standard disclaimer: IANAL.

Zundfolge
July 19, 2004, 01:40 AM
To be legal you may have to announce you are recording the exchange.
Wonder if you could just get a T-Shirt that says something like "I'm Videotaping this entire encounter" if that would be enough to constitute "announcing" you're recording :p

Warren
July 19, 2004, 02:32 AM
How about something like this? (http://www.1800mobiles.com/t-mobile-nokia-6600-world-cell-phone.html)


A little spendy, but you might be able to upload the video to the web in realtime so even if the unit is lost or damaged you would still have a record of what occured prior to the loss.





Note: I am not endorsing this particular phone or any phone, just throwing out an idea.

BB62
July 19, 2004, 10:14 AM
The phone is a VERY interesting idea, but I seriously doubt that it has 30-60 minute capacity. An 512K SD memory card that would hold that much video costs about $150...

But, as I said, a very interesting idea. Thanks!


BB62

flatrock
July 19, 2004, 10:55 AM
I'm kind of curious what you are trying to record. Are you trying to record your actions on your walk to disprove any false acusations before you meet up with the police, or are you trying to record your encounter with the police?

The police are likely to insist that you not have anything in your hands while they question you, and it's a good idea to be able to show your hands are empty when the police approach you.

If the police get called about a man with a gun, they do have a duty to check things out. They are going to be nervous about confronting an armed person. It's in your best interest to keep things calm and to show them you aren't a threat to them.

I'm not really sure what you could use as a recoiding device that wouldn't be obvious, unless you're willing to invest considerable money in the gear. If you already own a camcorder that has a video input, maybe you could find a small camera that wouldn't be to large or bulky to attach to it. You could carry the camcorder in a bag, or backpack. The camcorder would give you the recording capacity that you won't get with a small digital device.

Whatever you do be careful and be safe. You're confronting people's somewhat irrational fears, and scared people often make poor decisions. I respect and support your right to carry openly, but when doing so be very careful of your actions. If you don't do your best to project a good image of gun owners, you're likely to do more harm than good.

HankB
July 19, 2004, 11:17 AM
I don't see how recording a conversation between yourself and a public servant, when it takes place in a public place, would be against the law. There is no expectation of privacy when you're in public - note the growing proliferation of surveillance cameras, red light cameras, etc.

And especially if the LEOs are confronting you as part of their official public duty - there certainly is NO expectation of privacy.

The phone/wiretapping statutes would appear to be inapplicable.

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice.

BB62
July 19, 2004, 11:53 AM
Flatrock,

I stated in a previous post why I intended to tape my activities:

"I'm not worried about the cops - does no one read anymore? - I am concerned about the die-hard antis out there who would think nothing of swearing out a complaint that I was grasping for or waving my sidearm around."

I don't care if the recording device is visible - I am just soliciting ideas about devices I might use either on my belt or on my person otherwise to ward off false charges.

The officers who stopped me warned me that if they had a complainant present who was willing to say I had brandished my weapon or somesuch, I would have been arrested. THEN it would have been my word against theirs - and as I said, some people have no conscience about using any means necessary to achieve their desired ends.

I don't want to be on the short end of that stick. I've asked the questions I've asked for my own benefit, but anyone else who open carries ought to at least consider the possibilities.

And yes, I am fully aware that such steps would not be necessary if I were to simply avail myself of my CHL, but that is not the point of my questions.

BTW, have you read the GT post? You should.


Regards,
BB62

hometheatreguy
July 19, 2004, 12:50 PM
I was under the impression we lost our open carry when we got concealed carry? Is that not true?

Ironbarr
July 19, 2004, 02:07 PM
FIRST check your state law. Call the state police and ask for a read. Or state attorney... don't check with locals until you've covered the state law. Then determine if there's local ordinances that read contrary to state.

Once determined then check with locals.

For us Virginians for instance, and as I understand it - local gun bans were pre-empted on July 1, 2004 - BUT open carry has been around for ever - almost. Here, CHP does not affect open carry, in fact (July 1) hunters in the field may now conceal weapons during inclement weather without a permit - and carrying a concealed hand gun while walking in the woods DOES NOT constitute hunting. (If this is wrong - I just know I'll be corrected shortly.)

The reason for checking with state first is that we've found local officers are not yet up to the new law changes... it'll take a while before all settles down with their training.

In other words - find out what the prevailing read is on state law, then find out whether there's local banning or not, and if the officers are aware of the new law(s). A few phone calls should do it (but if you run into a "Hell no!" - double - triple - check with other sources.

Hope this helps.

-Andy

BB62
July 19, 2004, 07:46 PM
HomeTheatreGuy,

It is not true.

You need to get a CHL, read OFCC.net, and join OFCC's talk-list (though not necessarily in that order!)


Come on guys - any more recording devices suggestions?


BB62

deej
July 19, 2004, 09:35 PM
One problem with a personally-carried video device is that it's not going to record YOUR actions (except your speech), but only the actions of others. Since you are presumably trying to document YOUR actions (that you're not brandishing, threatening, etc.), a first-person perspective won't be nearly as useful as a third-person perspective.

If it were strictly in/near-car use, you could go with a standard, PD-issue video camera setup. I suspect, however, that you want something that will be completely portable. Then you'll want something like this:

http://www.4hiddenspycameras.com/posudvr.html (mini DVR)

combined with this:

http://www.4hiddenspycameras.com/cowiboca.html (button camera)

or google around for other similar devices. Remember, though - this won't be recording YOUR actions (unless you contrive to take your jacket off and place it on a bench, and make sure no one gets out of the field of view :) ), only the actions of others.

DJ

Pilgrim
July 19, 2004, 10:34 PM
I am not aware of anywhere in the U.S. where it is illegal for one person to record a conversation between him/herself and another individual(s) -- ignoring for the moment the possibility of prohibitions applying to secure areas of facilities and the like, which are not the subject of the question.

There was talk of Maryland prosecuting Linda Tripp for recording her conversations with Monica Lewinski concerning the Clinton stained blue dress and other matters.

Pilgrim

BB62
July 20, 2004, 01:19 AM
DEEJ,

Those are very interesting links. Thanks!

The devices don't seem to record sound from what I can tell, but I will check further.

Have you previously done business with the firm?


Regards,
BB62

deej
July 20, 2004, 01:35 AM
Nope, can't say I have. I've seen similar devices before, you might google around some and check out the company's rep. (Stating the obvious, I know. :) )

DJ

hometheatreguy
July 20, 2004, 04:31 PM
I think you misunderstood me BB62. I don't want a CCW permit. I would rather just open carry without training I don't need. I heard with the passage of the handgun law that we can ONLY carry with a permit now and only concealed which I thought was BS when I heard it, but the dealer seemed to know for sure and I believed him.

BB62
July 20, 2004, 05:44 PM
HTG - no, the passage of the CCW law has finally given Ohioans the opportunity to legally carry concealed.

Open carry is legal, per the OSC decision in Klein v Leis - and is not affected by the passage of HB12. HOWEVER, the OSC decision is less sweeping (and less sweeping away) than OFCC would like to admit, but it was good enough for the open carry "Defense Walks".

Here is the decision: http://tinyurl.com/7x5lv

Again, any other suggestions for recording devices from anyone?


Thanks,
BB62

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