road rage incident?


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FNFiveSeven
July 19, 2004, 07:47 PM
So I'm driving down the freeway the other day, and the traffic was totally jammed, bumper to bumper. And of course, this being LA, a city full of self-absorbed A-holes, there are all these people trying to drive down the emergency lane and cut in front of everyone. So along comes another one of these sub-humans pieces of ***t and I decide I'm not going to take it anymore, so I pull my car in front of them and park it. I then pull forward to remerge with traffic again, and they try to cut in front of me again, so I pull out and block half of the side lane with my car, stopping them. Of course, at this point, they're getting really pissed off. Traffic comes to a standstill, so two of these "women" (dressed like the biggest ghetto trash whores you've ever seen) come up to my car and start bobbing their heads left and right, yelling at me in some strange ebonics dialect something along the lines of how much of an ***hole I was to block them blah blah blah. I was armed (with a Busse Steel Heart and a Chris Reeve spear... no guns due to this being Kali) but chose to do nothing as the risk of being prosecuted under "the law" was high (I'd probably get slapped with a "hate crime" too, since I was white and they were black). I continued to just hold my cool and do nothing, even when they started to throw bits of junk at my car (no permanent damage). It's frustrating, because I felt like I had to let them do whatever they wanted even though they were causing all the problems. My question to you is, what would you have done if you were in my place? Is there anything you can do, or do you just have to sit there and take it from people like this? It's like the law forces you to be a victim.

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neoncowboy
July 19, 2004, 08:09 PM
"My question to you is, what would you have done if you were in my place?"

Mind my own business and enjoy having time alone to listen to talk radio or make phone calls.

"Is there anything you can do, or do you just have to sit there and take it from people like this? It's like the law forces you to be a victim."

Victim of what?

You feel like you are being somehow wronged by the jack@sses who want to skirt traffic in the emergency lane...so you pull your own jack@ss vigilante-of-traffic-justice move and then you wonder why they're all pissed off and in your face?

Maybe next time you should try not provoking people?

If you're going to be one of the leaders of men who are entrusted with the right and responsibility to wield lethal force..grow up!

jdkelly
July 19, 2004, 08:26 PM
Although they were wrong to use the break down lane you were the first to act aggressively.

You're lucky it didn't get way out of hand.


Respectively,

jdkelly

Standing Wolf
July 19, 2004, 08:26 PM
My question to you is, what would you have done if you were in my place?

What I did do was get out of the People's Republic of California. We have traffic in Colorado, too, but it's extremely rare to see people behave like that.

FNFiveSeven
July 19, 2004, 08:31 PM
umm... let me get this straight. People push you out of the way, shove themselves in front of you, and your response is to do nothing but whistle and twiddle your thumbs?? Is the concept of standing up for yourself still alive in this world?! No wonder these people do things like this... they know they can get away with it!

P.S. I would consider someone driving past an hour of traffic and trying to force themselves in front of you an act of aggression.

joab
July 19, 2004, 08:48 PM
Personally I have better things to worry about than someone trying to get home 30 seconds earlier. hardly makes them sub-human, at the most maybe discourteous.
Bottom line is you asked for and recieved a reaction just because it wasn't the reaction that you hoped for does not put you in the right.
What concerns me much more is the fact that you thought , even for a second, that the situation warranted the use of weaponry. Well that and the use of racial stereotypes to get your point across.

Gameface
July 19, 2004, 08:55 PM
I have to second "victum of what?"

I guess maybe your pride was the victum, but is that a reason to start a confrontation?

When I was a lot younger I had a similer attitude. I made a right turn into a clear lane but a van going through the intersection changed lanes in the middle of the intersection (which is illegal) and I was now in thier way. They honked at me and I responded by hitting the breakes. They slammed into me. I felt pretty good about the whole thing for about 3 seconds. My girlfriend (now wife) was in the car but wasn't hurt. I was ready to continue being a jerk until this guy's pregnant wife and three kids got out of the car. Besides that he was very nice and handled everything like a gentalman making me feel like a complete juvinile punk. No one was hurt in his car either, but I changed my attitude a lot after that. A cheap lesson in the end. He could have come out fuming, especially with his pregnant wife and all. I suppose if it was you behind me and we both went at it hot-headed things would have been ugly.

Gameface

Art Eatman
July 19, 2004, 08:57 PM
blackrazor, always figure the profit, the gain, from any action you take. Play the what-ifs.

What if there had been more people in that car, sitting low in the backseat, and they offered violence? For instance, use pieces of pipe on your sheetmetal and your head?

Or, pulled a gun? And used it?

Look: I drive some 40k miles a year, with a lot of time on I-10 between Tallahassee and San Antonio. There's often road construction, with a choke-down to one lane. Most folks dutifully ease into the open lane, but there're always a bunch of idiots who zing down past us and then jam up traffic, having to cut over in front of the "good guys".

If I tried to police that bunch of clots, I'd spend the rest of my life worrying over nothing but the loss of five or ten minutes--and road rage at me for being an officious twit.

You deal is just variant of "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Move to Stockton. Or Susanville...Take a Valium.

:), Art

aguyindallas
July 19, 2004, 08:58 PM
I have had this happen to me a million times. Sitting in traffic, people do exactly what you are saying.

While I dont typically pull out and block the shoulder, I have done it on occassion. If I have to sit in this fricken traffic, so can they.

BlkHawk73
July 19, 2004, 09:00 PM
joab couldn't have said it any better.

So you believe that what you did is any different than what these "sub-humans pieces of ***t do? All you did is do the same thing and become one of them. I'm sure you NEVER cut in front of anyone, hurry to make the light and are always Mr Courteous.:rolleyes: Like you said..."LA, a city full of self-absorbed A-holes"

Zrex
July 19, 2004, 09:06 PM
My father and my grandfather were driving down some country road in rural south carolina sometime back in the mid 50's. They were putting along doing about 30 miles and hour and this car comes up behind them and gets really close. My grandfather decides this other guy is going too fast, so he slows down even more. When the guy finally tries to go around him, my grandfather pulls into the other lane to block him. This went on for about 5 minutes until the guy finally got up enough steam to pass him. As my father looked over at the car that my grandfather had tried to impose his "trafffic morals" on, he noticed that the passenger, a woman, was bleeding profusely from the head.

He passed this story along to me, and I took it to heart. Not everyone who tries to get around you is having any sort of emergency, but do you really want to stop that one person who is, just because you think you are Traffic God? Let them go, what does it matter anyway?

FNFiveSeven
July 19, 2004, 09:08 PM
Joab,

The situation would have warranted the use of weaponry if they had been so enraged that they attacked me. But they didn't cross that line, and so there was no (violent) problem... but you never know what people are going to do. BTW, if you don't like racial stereotypes, don't blame me, I'm just reporting the facts of what I saw... sorry if reality doesn't line up with the politically correct universe, but that's how it was.

Gameface,

The thing is, I would never be "that guy" behind you. I don't walk around with the attitude that I can push everyone else around because I'm the only person who matters.

What disturbs me here is that so many people seem to offended that I took a stand against this. When you were kids did you let bullies push you around, do whatever they will? You know why bullies act they way they do, right? BECAUSE PEOPLE LET THEM. If you don't take a stand, no one will.

Blkhawk,

No, I don't ever do those things.

Psssniper
July 19, 2004, 09:10 PM
Just roll with it bro,
let 'em go on by.....
you don't want to end up on the bad end of some idiot and his gun
over driving in traffic

FNFiveSeven
July 19, 2004, 09:15 PM
Zrex,

Of all the things people have said, your point is the only one that really seems to make sense to me. However, even when I drove myself to the emergency room a few years ago, I never cut in front of anyone, and waited my turn at 4-way intersections. But you're right, if it was a true life/death emergency, then I would feel bad. But since in this wasn't the case (and it never seems to be), I have no regrets... this time.

scottgun
July 19, 2004, 09:16 PM
blackrazor, this is the definition of passive agressive, you're lucky it was just a couple of women, if it were two dudes, you could have been dragged out of your car a got yo' buttt whooped, or maybe be unfortunate enough to see what it's like to bring knives to a gun fight, anyways, you're asking for trouble.

The world is full of idiots trying to ruin your day, but it's up to you if you let them. Don't join their ranks, its better going home relaxed than all worked up and ticked off. They will get theirs someday, its just not your job to give it to them.

prezzz
July 19, 2004, 09:38 PM
Posted by blackrazor:It's frustrating, because I felt like I had to let them do whatever they wanted even though they were causing all the problems.

Really?? Are you sure about that? They were causing ALL the problems? You make this sound like you were the innocent bystander minding your own business which is far from the case. Your lucky you only got some stuff thrown at your car, and some pyscho on drugs didn't use you as a punching bag!

Good thing you were only blocking some girls instead of that guy on drugs, that just got fired from his job and also learned that his wife is leaving him! You would have been the perfect outlet of his frustrations. :fire:

In this day and age, why give someone a reason take all their problems out on you?

This is why I don't mess with people in traffic. You never know what state in mind the other person is in.

As an Ex-Cop, I've seen people die from situations just like this that escalated out of control.


Do the right thing. Don't end up dying just to prove a point.

What disturbs me here is that so many people seem to offended that I took a stand against this. When you were kids did you let bullies push you around, do whatever they will?

The same bullies that stole your Crayons are now bad guys that have guns and are looking for a reason to "pop a cap in your a$$". That may be the next guy you try this stunt on. Just because you don't carry a gun doesn't mean they don't.


I hope you wise up and quit taunting the Grim Reaper.

jdkelly
July 19, 2004, 09:45 PM
umm... let me get this straight. People push you out of the way, shove themselves in front of you, and your response is to do nothing but whistle and twiddle your thumbs??---Blackrazor

Did the people you cut off, do this to you before you cut them off?

It sounds like you were taking out your frustration on someone you hadn't had contact with before you pulled out in front of them and parked. If that's the case, then you initiated the aggression.

As for your quote above, all it got you was being yelled at and having trash thrown at you by a couple of females, while no doubt other drivers laughed at you.

I think using your car as a tool of aggression is weak. But it's taken me years to realize that.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

Mannlicher
July 19, 2004, 09:47 PM
I tried to come up with a response that was , well, acceptable under the guidelines. I could not.

mete
July 19, 2004, 09:50 PM
Prezzz, that's right. We tell people that when you're carrying a gun leave you macho at home. Chill out , go with the flow , you'll live longer .

WonderNine
July 19, 2004, 09:56 PM
What if it really was an emergency. That would have made ya look pretty stupid eh?

Thumper
July 19, 2004, 10:04 PM
The situation would have warranted the use of weaponry if they had been so enraged that they attacked me.

What?

Two gals?

Yeah, use that Busse. :rolleyes:

R.H. Lee
July 19, 2004, 10:05 PM
Chill, dude. There's no cheese down that hole. :)

prezzz
July 19, 2004, 10:13 PM
What if it really was an emergency. That would have made ya look pretty stupid eh?

Good point. Not only that, but probably a pretty nasty Law Suit as well.

OR

If that was me taking my pregnant wife that's in labor to the Hospital, I don't think I would hold myself responsible for my actions. Probably no jury would either.

TechBrute
July 19, 2004, 10:16 PM
Kharma.

joab
July 19, 2004, 10:23 PM
The situation would have warranted the use of weaponry if they had been so enraged that they attacked me. Wouldn't that be the situation that you initiated.
But they didn't cross that line, and so there was no (violent) problem... . They didn't but you did unless of course you have been duly appointed as traffic vigilante by the good people of LA
BTW, if you don't like racial stereotypes, don't blame me, I'm just reporting the facts of what I saw... sorry if reality doesn't line up with the politically correct universe, but that's how it was. I just have to wonder if you would have pointed it out if they had been normal respectable white folks, don't blame me if your predjudice is showing, I'm just responding to what I read.

Of course I don't blame you for being intimidated every body knows that "those people" were bred to be stronger, have smaller brains, (from Tuskegee Airmen), and have that extra tendon in their legs so they can jump up and down on your butt harder.

gunsmith
July 19, 2004, 10:29 PM
... I know how you feel blackrazor... Often in SF I stop at crosswalks with pedestrians in them and have had folks honk their horn at me for stopping.
I've gotten out of the car and gone up to them to ask them is there some emergency? But it's a waste of time for the most part and now that I don't drive for a living I let alot of stuff go.

I know someone who lived on a farm well off the beaten track,his 3yr old son lost some fingers in an accident and he was driving to the hospital with his kid and was in a big hurry being very rural it was only a one lane road and there was a car in front of him that refused to let him pass even though he was flashing his lights and honking. He smashed the car off the road! He said the last he saw of the car it was rolling over down a steep cliff.
Myself I would have went back to check on them but he never did,he feels that they deserve what they got.
I don't have any kids my self but if I was rushing to the hospital for a life or death situation God help the person who gets in my way...

blackrazor, I know you mean well and it is awful that idiots like the ones you describe get away with so much. But there are more constructive ways to deal with idiots like that...

I do know how you feel though!

middy
July 19, 2004, 10:43 PM
I would have jumped out of the car and cut both their throats for driving in the break-down lane and being mean to me.

But that's just me.

:rolleyes:

RightIsRight
July 19, 2004, 11:34 PM
Just keep some paintballs or rotten eggs in your car.

When they come speeding up on the shoulder, just flick one out the passenger window.

Muzzleflash
July 19, 2004, 11:51 PM
Why would I keep a smelly rotten egg in my car?

Imagine if it broke.

Now, a rear mounted compressed air powered egg cannon....

Anna G.
July 19, 2004, 11:56 PM
I know how you feel. When I see some little avoidance of the set order by someone who thinks he/she is very smart I start seeing red. But I suppose the right thing is not to do anything.

By the way, the hurt pride is not something meaningless.

JohnKSa
July 19, 2004, 11:56 PM
It's smartest to let people do what they want and pray for a cop.

Still, it's people like that who help slowdowns grow in the first place. I can't remember how many times I've watched the signs and gotten in the proper lane only to sit stationary while watching folks rush down the soon-to-be closed lane(s) and pulling in front of the folks trying to do it right. If enough folks do it, it can end up really punishing the folks who merge properly while the rude folks get through quickly. The sad reality is that discourtesy pays.

'Round these parts it's not terribly unusual for semis to do shoulder patrol in long backups... Kind of gives ya a nice warm feeling watching folks who thought they were going to get ahead at the expense of everyone else having to wait!

I like them doing it, but I'm not going to get involved with some nutcase over a few more minutes spent in traffic. Get some books on tape. Great for blood pressure...

Wildalaska
July 19, 2004, 11:58 PM
self-absorbed A-holes
sub-humans pieces of ***t
dressed like the biggest ghetto trash whores you've ever seen
strange ebonics dialect
Is there anything you can do, or do you just have to sit there and take it from people like this?

I suggest anger management for you, and I am thankful you are not permitted to carry a gun or we would have another black mark against gunowners...

PS would you have been so pissed off if they were white


WildwaybeyondbeleifhereAlaska

FNFiveSeven
July 20, 2004, 12:07 AM
You know, I think part of the reason a lot of you can't understand the rage is that you live in the south or the center of the US, where people are generally more curteous and respectful than they are in the northeast and the southwest. When you live in LA or NY, you are stuck in heavy traffic, every day, day after day, month after month, year after year after year... it starts to grind on you. And when you see that nothing is being done, you want to do something about it yourself. Perhaps blocking them directly wasn't the right thing, but if it wasn't, what was the right thing? To do nothing, to let these "holier than thou" types get away with their bahavior? Is the solution to just admit there is no solution and to just sit there take it with a smile? That's depressing.

P.S. Wildalaska, Yes I would have been just as pissed. I didn't know what race they were until they got out of the car, and I was way past pissed off at that point. But you and Joab can go ahead playing the race card if you want. :barf:

P.P.S. ebonics has little to do with race, at least here in LA. White guys use it just as often as black guys do. It's not an indicator of race so much as it is an indicator of stupidity.

FMarlon
July 20, 2004, 12:16 AM
I look at it this way.

If there is a cop around when they do this stuff, they will be caught and therefore I am that much less likely to get pulled over:D

joe sixpack
July 20, 2004, 12:19 AM
Dear BR,

I've been driving in the greater L.A. area for many years and have
witnessed a number of incidents including a drive by.
Ever see a couple dudes going at it because of some bs traffic
etiquette violation?

Basically as has been posted, don't sweat the small stuff, believe me
killing someone or being killed or injured as a result of an incident
such as you detailed is bad for all concerned, no matter how right
you may be and how wrong the other person might be.
There are a lot more constructive things for you to put your attention
on and other more worthy battles to be waged.

As suggested you might want to find some radio stations or play something
you like, something funny.
Personally I listen to the Phil Hendrie Show on KFI 670 AM which is a riot.

cheers, ab

Bullet
July 20, 2004, 01:37 AM
blackrazor

I live in Kansas and we have plenty of bad drivers here too.

You said "what was the right thing to do? To do nothing?"

I believe the answer is YES do nothing. I can relate to how you feel but some people are just jerks and you can't change them. This worlds a mess. It's always been a mess. It will probably always be a mess. And that's why they don't call this HEAVEN.

Ex-Doc
July 20, 2004, 02:09 AM
Never do anything while stuck in traffic, you have no way out. Now getting cut off at 70 mph, a hand full of pennies out the sunroof works well. JK of course.

Always have a traffic cop/meter enforcer for a friend. I know a few reckless drivers got parking tickets in the mail; red zone, handicap parking, etc. I'm sure they were clueless as to how they got it. :D

c_yeager
July 20, 2004, 02:11 AM
If someone wound up getting shot as a result of YOUR actions in this situation it would have been you that went to prison. And i would have seen not a single thing wrong with that.

Glamdring
July 20, 2004, 02:58 AM
I am starting to think that a lot of the people that post here don't understand what "The High Road" means at all.

As I posted recently on another thread, being armed means you are held to a higher standard legally and ethically. If you can not leave your ego and attitude at home when you put on a gun and knife then you need to leave the weapons at home. You are not a COP just because you are armed. You can't enforce laws as you see fit. If you really want to do that go into LE.

Physical force and violence are the LAST RESORT! You were using both when you had many many better choices of action.

In this day and age of cell phones, digital cameras, and phones with digital cameras why not take picture of the car doing whatever you think is so horrible and reporting it to the police (if you feel the strong need to "DO SOMETHING")? Being a good witness and reporting things to law enforcement is the correct way to deal with non violent crimes in progress.

***

Stop for a moment and think about why you chose the course of action that you did. I think if your honest a good part of your motivation was to make yourself feel more in control. To give yourself a sense of power to counter your sense of helplessness because of the traffic.

There are better ways to do that (NOTE: You won't learn these things at a shooting school :p )

Keep water, snacks, and something for a piddle pack in the car. Dehydration, low blood sugar, and full bladders never help rational thought.

Keep a couple of items in the car to keep you busy when stuck in traffic. Can be a cell phone if you have people to call while your in traffic, or good games on your phone. Get a gameboy. Balance checkbook. Keep a stuffed Barny to beat up :evil: Heck Barney makes a good knife dummy, for a little while, if you use a pen or pencil for dummy knife.

twency
July 20, 2004, 07:37 AM
What disturbs me here is that so many people seem to offended that I took a stand against this. When you were kids did you let bullies push you around, do whatever they will? You know why bullies act they way they do, right? BECAUSE PEOPLE LET THEM. If you don't take a stand, no one will.
When bullies "push you around", they often actually push. As in, they assualt you. Someone driving by you in an annoying manner doesn't count as an assault. In fact, they aren't really harming you at all, other than offending your delicate sensibilities, and perhaps making you a few seconds later to wherever you're going. I get annoyed by this kind of stuff too, and I've even been known to nudge over the middle line near "right/left lane ends" merge points at construction zones to discourage people from passing me just to cut me off; but it's best not to let the little things in life get to you, and to remember that "turning the other cheek" to an insult is virtuous. That doesn't mean letting someone get away with murder, it just means you should be slow to anger.

This kind of stuff: "sub-humans pieces of ***t...dressed like the biggest ghetto trash whores you've ever seen," is offensive and disturbing. You accused someone else of "playing the race card." You brought up or suggested their race a number of times in your post, as if it was some kind of aggravating factor in the incident. You say you "didn't know what race they were until they got out of the car," but you sure made an issue of it here once you knew.

Your post is instructive. But not in a good way.

-twency

0luke1
July 20, 2004, 08:07 AM
411, non-emergency number for police, license plate # and description of vehicle and occupants. Or if they are really driving in a manner that is dangerous, 911. Let LEO do the job.

Blue Line
July 20, 2004, 08:15 AM
your lucky they weren't a couple of guys that just robbed the bank and killed the guard and decided that shooting you would be the least of thier problems. You never know what had "just happened" prior to your encounter with them, they could have killed thier spouse, kids or whatever bad thing and you were an impediment to thier escape. If they had over reacted to your over reaction and shot you, would your actions been justified? I'm sure your family would rather have you a little late and have to listen to your story about the car driving down the side of the interstate than making your arrangements at the funeral home. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

mondocomputerman
July 20, 2004, 08:20 AM
I hate moron drivers like that. The smart thing to do would be to ignore them and let them by. ... but I would probably do the same thing as you. Does cali have no fault insurance? That would be a bummer if they rear-ended you because you had car problems and had to "pull over"

wingman
July 20, 2004, 08:25 AM
All i can add to this is get use to it because with a growing population
this kind of thing will get worse, until the folks in power decide they have
had enough and then all working folks will ride mass transit.

More people=more crimes=more laws=less freedom.

HankB
July 20, 2004, 09:01 AM
In my youth, I was not exactly the calmest, most forgiving person around, and was not really courteous with those who annoyed me. :rolleyes: I like to think I've matured a bit.

Here's a (long-winded) explanation of my policy on dealing with the worthless human debris on the roads.

This is Texas. People - including me - carry guns.

A person who tries to pick a fight with a stranger who may well be armed is an idiot.

SO . . . if some worthless @hole objects to my driving, my clothing, the color of my hair, whatever, and tries to make something out of it, by definition he's an idiot.

I DON"T CARE WHAT IDIOTS THINK OF ME OR MY DRIVING!

So if he tries to provoke a road rage incident, I smile, wave, shrug, and let him think I'm apologizing. Mind you, what I'm mentally saying would not meet with the approval of THR's monitors, but for all the other guy can tell, I'm a wimp who's sorry for what he did . . . whatever that may be. And remember, he's already been determined to be an idiot, so I don't care what he thinks of me.

If the situation escalates, I'm confident that I can deal with it - I'm armed, remember, and have a modicum of skill with my sidearm - but if things get out of hand, I want to be certain that all the escalation will be on his part. I won't knowingly provoke a situation, or make it worse.

Bottom line - if trouble finds me, I'll sort it out with alacrity. But if I can avoid trouble, I will.

wingman
July 20, 2004, 09:09 AM
Excellent Hankb, my feelings also,happy there is two of us anyway in central texas .:)

mfree
July 20, 2004, 09:15 AM
They will eventually reap the seed that they sow. Don't go pickin' someone else's crop for them :)

Some day, they're going to run over something sharp in the shoulder, or bump the divider, or drive right by a cruiser, find out that the reason for the traffic was an accident in the shoulder their driving on... any manner of things. Let it be, worry about your own situation.

hso
July 20, 2004, 09:54 AM
Blackrazor,

You were wrong. Everyone has explained why already.

If you're courteous to everyone regardless of their rude behavior you won't change the culture all by your self, but you might find your blood pressure drops a point and you might inspire someone else.

bogie
July 20, 2004, 10:28 AM
Just because someone else behaves like a selfish idiot doesn't mean that you have to behave like a selfish idiot.

Avoid conflict.

If one of the folks in the car that you blocked had attacked you, and you defended yourself, odds are that (1) you'd be injured yourself, and (2) you'd get some good sized legal bills.

12GA
July 20, 2004, 10:33 AM
BR, automobiles are funny things. Did you ever notice how we tend to act differently towards each other when we're in them. We do things we'd never do face-to-face with another person. Flipping the bird. Screaming obscenities.

I try to keep that in mind when I'm driving so that I treat other drivers as if we were standing face to face. I try to avoid confrontation when I'm in my vehicle. Does that make me a coward? I dunno. I do know that I have a responsibility to get home to my familiy safely every day. That is foremost in my mind at all times, and it is one of the reasons I carry.

Devonai
July 20, 2004, 10:58 AM
I pride myself in the hard-earned art of taking a deep breath and saying "oh, well" when on the road. 12GA reminds us all that people don't act like themselves when they get into cars. I don't approve of the way some of my friends drive, and if I saw some of the things they do out on the road I would probably think they were jerks. But they're my friends and I know they're not jerks.

Driving psychology is based on our ideas of fairness. Americans are a very fair-minded people, so it's understandible for us to react with such vigor to anyone taking advantage over us. Driving is anonymous and dehumanizing, there's no other way around it. It also deprives humans of a very basic desire, that to move around unimpeded. A traffic jam ticks off a very basic part of our emotional subconscious. So do you want to be governed by your emotions or by your logic?

Even still, it is difficult not to "drop the f-bomb" on somebody no matter how calm you are otherwise. On the first warm day of the year, I reacted to a bad move by saying "nice turn signal s***head." Too bad both of our windows were rolled down. The guy followed me for five minutes. I was armed, and I had to recognize my own role in escalating the situation from nothing to this. If the guy followed me all the way to my destination, I was ready to kiss his butt as much as necessary to avoid further trouble. Fortunately he got a look at my friend and I as we exited the vehicle and decided it wasn't worth it.

My solution is to make gobs of money as a writer, move to a nice big plot of land in NH, and never drive anywhere but to the grocery store again.

FNFiveSeven
July 20, 2004, 01:19 PM
I can see that the whole "the car changes your behavior" aspect has become a major part of this, but I honestly don't think that's what caused me to behave the way I did. Let me put it to you this way: let's say you're standing in line at an amusment park ride for an hour or so, and a few punks skip through and wind up trying to cut in right in front of you. Now, as a rational person, you realize that this isn't going to significantly delay your wait, but doesn't it make you angry? Don't you feel a sense of rage at being the victim of such wanton disrespect? Do you still say that you would just "let them do their thing" in that case? With that attitude, don't be surprised if everyone starts taking advantage of your passivism.

Perhaps some of you might tell them to get in the back of the line (which it sounds like many of you wouldn't say)... what would you do if they insulted you and threw popcorn in your face, laughing? Still nothing, I suppose? You going to call the cops, yeah, I'm sure they'll be right over:rolleyes: I say, you take a stand for yourself, do the right thing, and just be ready if THEY decide to escalate the situation.

R.H. Lee
July 20, 2004, 01:24 PM
Even in the sparsely populated county where I live, there are plenty of arseholes on the freeway, riding bumpers and weaving in and out of traffic. I do my best to stay away from them, but usually there is room to get out of their way, it's not bumper to bumper gridlock like in LA. I live halfway between LA and SF, so I assume these cretins are just passing thru.

12GA
July 20, 2004, 01:39 PM
I can see that the whole "the car changes your behavior" aspect has become a major part of this, but I honestly don't think that's what caused me to behave the way I did.

Yet, when confronted by the individuals outside of their car, you did nothing. Why? Because once they were out of their vehicle, you had two human beings right in front of you.

let's say you're standing in line at an amusment park ride for an hour or so, and a few punks skip through and wind up trying to cut in right in front of you. Now, as a rational person, you realize that this isn't going to significantly delay your wait, but doesn't it make you angry? Don't you feel a sense of rage at being the victim of such wanton disrespect? Do you still say that you would just "let them do their thing" in that case? With that attitude, don't be surprised if everyone starts taking advantage of your passivism.

An amusement park ride. Not a food line, nor water line, nor anything else likely to affect my survival? What's that about discretion being the better part of valor?

Gameface
July 20, 2004, 01:45 PM
If someone slips in front of you in line at the amusement park you have the opportunity to politely ask them what they are doing. You have a lot more reliable information at hand upon which to base your reaction.

In traffic we communicate with our vehicles and that is much less subtle and much more dangerous.

You also said that there were a lot of people driving down the emergency lane, yet you choose one car in particular to prove your point to. They may have been asking themselves why you watched countless others drive by and then suddenly pull in front of them and stop. Maybe they felt frustrated by everyone else who was doing it, but unlike you decide to join in rather than make a stand.

I have to say that I understand your point and your frustration. You are a person who probably goes through life with a good degree of consideration for your fellow man, which makes it all the more difficult to watch people disregard everyone else and act so selfishly. If all of us could act with a minimum of decency and consideration this world would be a pretty great place.

Everyone has already pointed out plenty of examples as to what could have happened and why you were wrong. I just want to say that despite the fact that I criticize your actions, I’m on your side. It’s easy for all of us to say what should have happened because we’re sitting at our keyboards and not in traffic.

Gameface

DevilDog
July 20, 2004, 01:48 PM
So for anyone who wants to prove how "tough" they are by not letting another motorist push you around... is your life worth it?

Many Colorado residents might remember the name "Vern Smalley". In the early '90s, in morning traffic (iirc), he and a 17 year old boy got in a traffic altercation. They pulled over (accounts differ who initiated the pullover, but in the trial it was accepted that the boy initiated it). The end result was the boy being shot and killed.

From an article I found about it on the internet:

"Vern Smalley, a retired colonel was tried for blowing away a seventeen year old.The two had been engaged in an angry game of bumper tag during morning traffic. After the teenager motioned him over to the side of the road,Smalley, who patrolled the highways like some aging Road Warrior, removed a gun from his glove compartment and rolled down his window. The kid walked up to him. Some witnesses say he punched Smalley. Others say he didn't. Smalley testified that his pistol accidentally discharged into the teenager's chest.Experts countered that the pistol couldn't possibly have accidentally done anything. The youth, Carmine Tagliere, died instantly, along the shoulder of that busy highway. The jury acquitted Vern Smalley..."

What I learned from this - don't pull over. If/when I have children, I will teach them to NOT pull-over. Let it go.

Being "tough" is resisting a criminal who has you cornered. Elevating a traffic situation that you can drive away from is juvenile, imho. I confess though, I have to fight the urge to "get at them" for driving stupid when it happens to me.

Andrew Rothman
July 20, 2004, 02:58 PM
Don't you feel a sense of rage at being the victim of such wanton disrespect?

Two words: anger management.

Some other points:

* A successful "self defense" defense in a court of law tends to require that the self-defender be a "reluctant participant" -- one who not only doesn't provoke, but tries to deescalate and disengage.

* If those folks in the other car had punched you, and you stabbed them, it would be not self defense, but what law enforcement folks call a "fight." And you'd go to jail.

* 411 is directory assistance. 911 is for any police response.

* When a lane ends, it is perfectly friggin' legal to merge at the last moment. It also, studies show, makes traffic move faster. Why not use an empty lane? Minnesota's department of transportation is now considering signage that instructs drivers to use both lanes, then merge in alternating fashion at the head of the line.

* Driving in the emergency lane is another thing, and not legal at all.

* You are not the cops. If you sit in the emergency lane to block them, you are breaking the law too.

---
edit: I kant spel.
---

DevilDog
July 20, 2004, 03:15 PM
* When a lane ends, it is perfectly friggin' legal to merge at the last moment. It also, studies show, makes traffic move faster. Why not use an empty lane? Minnesota's department of transportation is now considering signage that instructs drivers to use both lanes, then merge in alternating fashion at the head of the line.

YES! It does not bother me if the freeway is bumber-to-bumper and those merging get ahead of me. It does bother me if someone jumps out onto an on ramp to pass me, but I let it go.

mtnbkr
July 20, 2004, 03:15 PM
You know, I think part of the reason a lot of you can't understand the rage is that you live in the south or the center of the US, where people are generally more curteous and respectful than they are in the northeast and the southwest. When you live in LA or NY, you are stuck in heavy traffic, every day, day after day, month after month, year after year after year... it starts to grind on you. And when you see that nothing is being done, you want to do something about it yourself.

I live, work, and drive in Northern Va. This area has some of the worst traffic in the nation (I've been to LA and didn't think it was any worse than here).

That said, I went through a period of frustration where I tried tactics like yours when people tried to pass me illegally, etc. After a year, I realized traffic wasn't improving despite my attempts to be a private traffic police force and I wasn't getting to my destinations any quicker. I was, however, getting to my destinations in a foul mood and stressed out. Once I let other drivers play their games and stuck to getting myself from Point A to Point B, the driving got easier.

The only time I get mad while driving around NoVa now is when someone almost causes a wreck or when drivers refuse to let me merge from on highway to another. It's not worth the hassle and right or wrong, you are the one that looks like an ???????.

Chris

Carlos Cabeza
July 20, 2004, 03:54 PM
I can attest that it is VERY hard to remain calm in traffic when so many seem to be getting away with being jerks. In truth, there is nothing that you can effectively do that will prove a positive result. So, it is best to ignore it and make the best of an otherwise bad situation. Put on your favorite CD or call a friend or relative you haven't spoken to in a while. It takes some work to not fall into the "ratrace trap". Don't get yourself caught up in it.

P.S. I am not comparing OK traffic to LA. Our traffic is mildly annoying compared to even Tulsa, OK.

Exposure
July 20, 2004, 04:22 PM
This type of vigilante justice on the road is a recipe for disaster. Just let it go.

I spent the better part of last winter in Mexico City, Mexico on assignment. It's the biggest city in the world, 27 million people. Try to imagine that for a minute, this city is vast beyond belief. There are cars everywhere, the traffic congestion is unlike anything most people in the states can imagine. People drive like freakin' maniacs down there. Breakdown lanes, wrong way on a one way, even sidewalks, yes sidewalks, can become an impromptu traffic corridor now and then. And yet I very, very rarely saw people having fits of "road rage". An occasional horn honk or light flashing was it. My theory is that things have been like this for so long down there that everyone realizes it does no good to get upset. American drivers could take a lesson from this. This ridiculous phenomenon of "road rage" in America is lame. It isn't worth it. Just enjoy a little quiet time on your ride to work and let the a**holes be a**holes cause you ain't gonna change 'em no matter what.

The thought of having to draw down on someone just because I got upset in traffic is more responsibility than I am willing to bear. Therefore I just let them go and hope there is a LEO around to dispense some justice.

BlkHawk73
July 20, 2004, 05:11 PM
Well, I DO live in the northeast - have all my life. I drive in Boston, Hartford, NYC and yeah I see this stuff happening. Is it really going to put me that much behind? Is it really worth the potentail confrontation that either way isn't going to be pleasant? When these things occur as frequently as they do, it simply becomes a part of daily life in these congested areas. You get mad cause they get in front of you or someone further ahead of you so you pull in front of them. SO You ARE doing the same thing they are and threfore are in my opinion in the same category as them, which I believe in your words was "sub-humans pieces of ***t". Whose the "self-absorbed A-holes"?
I'm sure two women yelling and maybe even hitting you would be more than enough reason to use the knives. :rolleyes: remember, you can use only the amount of force neccessary to stop the conflict. But wait, they're black so that changes everything right? If it wasn't a factor, race wouldn't have been mentioned in the origianl post. :banghead: Like some others have said...thankfully some people don't carry a gun. Actually, do this same stunt again and just show the knives to the ones causeing you to be a "victim" and see what happens. :p

Exposure
July 20, 2004, 05:15 PM
[thread hijack mode]

BlkHawk73-

Where do you live? I live in Ellsworth. Well at least for another 3 weeks then I am moving to Charlotte N.C. No more winter for me!

[/thread hijack mode]

BlkHawk73
July 20, 2004, 05:22 PM
Exposure

I'm in Westbrook, just outside Portland. Lived here all my life and have NO intentions of leaving. Could've moved to NY and to Mass but...NO WAY! Winters are another of the 5 season here. They pass. Besides it's fun to watch southerners try to drive it the white stuff:D
Enjoy N.C. !!:cool:

pax
July 20, 2004, 06:18 PM
Matt Payne ~

* When a lane ends, it is perfectly friggin' legal to merge at the last moment. It also, studies show, makes traffic move faster. Why not use an empty lane? Minnesota's department of transportation is now considering signage that instructs drivers to use both lanes, then merge in alternating fashion at the head of the line.
Thank you for mentioning that. I wondered if I was the only person in the whole world who knew that! :D

pax

dhoomonyou
July 20, 2004, 06:24 PM
TOO much caffeine, and NOT enough fiber.

Dude, relax, first of all call the Highway Patrol to report aggressive and reckless driving, I know it might feel useless but at least you can vent a bit to the operator.

FNFiveSeven
July 20, 2004, 06:43 PM
Looks like I have to correct you, as slow and laborious as that will be.

1. I am not doing "the same thing" as they are, hell, the guy behind me was so pleased that he held a space in front of him so that I could remerge in EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE I WAS. I gained no time advantage by doing this, not one bit. If you can't understand the difference... well...

2. I'm sure two women yelling and maybe even hitting you would be more than enough reason to use the knives.

Well, I didn't use the knives, did I? I didn't initially know what was going to happen, so I just mentioned it as a possible contingency. In this case, it wasn't necessary. Geeze try reading the story a little more carfully. :rolleyes:

3. Race would have become a factor if things got out of hand because anything I did would have been catagorized as a "hate crime." In this country, you better be damn sure whomever you get in a fight with is the same race as you, or the hate crime police will lock you up for sure. Do you understand yet? Re-read as necessary until you do. :banghead:

joab
July 20, 2004, 06:55 PM
I think part of the reason a lot of you can't understand the rage is that you live in the south or the center of the US, where people are generally more curteous and respectful than they are in the northeast and the southwest. Apparently you have never driven in Miami, Orlando on the 408 or I-4, or in Houston or Atlanta
I did not play a race card, you did when you felt that bringing out every racial stereotype would somehow bring legitimacy to your irresponsible actions

(dressed like the biggest ghetto trash whores you've ever seen)
bobbing their heads left and right,
yelling at me in some strange ebonics dialect
I was white and they were black). .

Here are the facts as I have understood them
A man initiates a conflict with 2 women , who he considers bullies because they were passing him on the freeway when he was unable to move.
He is so intimidated by these 2 women that he contemplates using a deadly weapon to defend himself against them when they become enraged at his dangerous and irresponsible and probably illegal attempt to impede their movement

Your actions have no merit and, other than your repeated references to your rage and anger and inability to understand why others would not share your anger over such a trivial matter, I can not understand why you would engage in such dangerous juvenile and frankly stupid behavior.

FNFiveSeven
July 20, 2004, 07:24 PM
Think whatever you want Joab. But my guess is, sexual stereotypes aside, there are plenty of women who could beat the crap out of you, especially if they were better armed than you were. Of course, I guess you just KNOW that all women are automatically harmless, right? Plenty of women have killed plenty of men with razor blades, guns, cars, kitchen knives, scissors, etc. but I guess you're just to manly and awesome to worry about stuff like that. I wish I could be like you Joab.

jdkelly
July 20, 2004, 07:41 PM
Blackrazor,

You can't control what others do, as soon as you learn that you'll be happier.

Do you really need to measure you man hood by whom your CAR can impead?

Of course you don't!

There will be other times in life when you really will have to stand up, jerks passing you in the breakdown lane is not one of them. IMHO

Respectfully,

jdkelly

RocketMan
July 20, 2004, 08:46 PM
road rage incident?
Yes, and simply put, you were the cause.

You weren't standing up to bullies, as you were not being bullied. These people were driving around you in the emergency lane, something that had no direct effect on anything except your ego.
Granted, what they were doing is, in many states, illegal, but so is what you did in response.
Leave traffic enforcement to the cops, sit there in traffic and chill, listen to some good tunes on the radio.

neoncowboy
July 20, 2004, 09:02 PM
"you were the cause. "

This is the overwhelmingly majority view of all of the people who have participated in this thread. People of high moral integrity and character, people who walk in roles of great responsibility, people who are leaders.

And you [blackrazor] aren't listening. Instead, you keep reaching for non-existent circumstances and poor analogies to somehow try to justify your bad, illegal, antaonistic, arrogant behavior.

It is *way* disturbing to me that there are types like you out there seeking the responsibility to wield deadly force in public...YIKES!

Maybe you should consider humbling out and learning from the collective wisdom represented here?

joab
July 20, 2004, 09:08 PM
but I guess you're just to manly and awesome to worry about stuff like that. I wish I could be like you Joab. No but I am manly enough not to bully women on the highway, maybe in that sense you should be like me.

I can see that you feel that your wants and needs supercede those of others, so anymore participation by me in this thread is pointless.
Good luck to you

FNFiveSeven
July 20, 2004, 09:17 PM
Well, I guess that's it then. Many of you think that I started this, and I don't agree, and I probably never will. The suggestion that I should just ignore it, close my eyes and think happy thoughts... while it may be for the best in the end, I dont' know. But I'll never agree that I was the cause, and the way I see it, the jury didn't think Vern Smalley was at fault either. Oh well.

motorep
July 20, 2004, 09:22 PM
I read this this morning before heading out, so had all day to think about it. The traffic isn't an excuse for your initiating the confrontation, the statement regarding being armed...you probably shouldn't be. And it's for sure not an excuse for your racist comments. I've lived and worked up and down the east coast where the traffic is every bit as bad as LA, and the people are ruder.Being a jerk just gets your blood pressure up and you don't get where you're going any faster. I've carried for 35 years, it makes me the most polite driver on the road. I've served and lived with people from a lot of different places and of different races, just because they may look, talk, and act differently from you - or me- it doesn't make them any less for it.
Please don't take this as a personal attack, I think that you were asking for opinions by posting.

yy
July 20, 2004, 09:58 PM
I know how you feel.

Sorry to say, your action were unwise in the final analysis because those two women actually got away with more. You stopped them from cutting in front of legitimate people waiting in line. But they got away with vandalism and reinforces their rude behavior.

Strange how all these morally superior (fellow?) highroaders try to concil (sp?) "let them go because bad things could happen to you" (paraphrase)

I just have to say, good for you. Try not to do it too often. (liability to me be damned)

But first, I applaud those of us who advised taking the highroad. Especially when armed. Yes. The sad thing is that being armed and private citizen means we must not uphold social values such as fairness. And furthermore blocking the emergency lane *might* delay an authentic emergency vehicle out of sight, several cars back. What BR did was not profitable to himself, was probably dangerous to himself, and likely unwise for his self preservation.

BR wasn't thinking about his own gain, his welfare, or his self preservation. He (and I would too) tried to uphold fairness.



Now I explain why I chafe at those other advice. Evil thrives when good men do nothing. The highroad should include righting wrongs.

People like Blackrazor (and me I hope) act to give negative feedback to those people in the population who take shortcuts and take away from the public good (not quite bullies). Maybe there's a better method than blocking those people in the emergency lane, and I'm all ears for anyone who come up with a better suggestion. Until then it is the most direct way to rebuff the rude and the inconsiderate.

So don't use fear as a reason for letting the rude and the inconsiderate continue to degrade our public good. (saying things like 'you could've been beaten up or killed') That's the same line of reasoning the gun grabbers use. Remember this? 'your gun could be taken away from you and used against you'

Try to reach out and understand the frustration that so few people stand up.

Blackrazor, it's true, you need to chill. As do I. It's for our blood pressure. But you know, if I see you needing a hand on the 10 or the 91, I'd jump in and give you a hand. You were in a tactically poor position. And yes, legally you could not do anything to discipline those two women without escalating the situation. It feels wrong. but it's the right thing because we do say life is precious, don't we?

Thumper
July 20, 2004, 09:59 PM
Well, I guess that's it then. Many of you think that I started this, and I don't agree, and I probably never will.

Your attitude's gonna get you dead, partner. Those gangsta chicks weren't hurting anything but your pride.

Do what you did around here, you're liable to be beaten. You pull out your Busse (or your spear *giggle*) and you're liable to get dead.

But hey...least nobody got in front of you.

Deadly force that results from a situation that you initiated will, at best, put your young rear in jail. At worst, it'll put you in the ground.

You're getting good advice here, but you choose to ignore it.

BlkHawk73
July 20, 2004, 09:59 PM
Looks like I have to correct you, as slow and laborious as that will be.

Hmmm...kinda like all of us have been trying to do to you, correct you!

I am not doing "the same thing" as they are


Let's see...again...People cut in front of you, you cut in front of other people. They used thier vehicle in an inappropriate and illegal manner, you used your vehicle in an inappropriate and illegal manner. If you can't understand the difference... well... Right back atchta.:neener:

so I just mentioned it as a possible contingency
or as an ego boost to show-off your eadly weapons. :p

Race would have become a factor if things got out of hand because anything I did would have been catagorized as a "hate crime."

Of course it would be if you made it one. The women's race has no bearing or importance in the incident and was - I feel - only mentioned because of a bit of color blindness. :uhoh: ;)

but I guess you're just to manly and awesome

I'm guessing more so than someone that has a rage over such a silly incident as this.

I can see that you feel that your wants and needs supercede those of others, so anymore participation by me in this thread is pointless. -noab

Well put and ditto here, (well except for the lucj part):neener: :evil: :eek:

prezzz
July 20, 2004, 10:28 PM
blackrazor:

Many of you think that I started this, and I don't agree, and I probably never will.

I think the issue now is not who started it, but whether you did the right thing or not in this situation. The vast majority of posters in this thread think you did not do the right thing.

So, I ask you blackrazor, in your honest opinion:

1) did you do the right thing?

2) would you react the same way if this happened tomorrow?

3) if you have children, is this the behavior you want them to learn from you?

Nobody is trying to change you. We are simply trying to convince you that the risk isn't worth the reward. I'm far from losing sleep over it, but I fail to understand why you don't see that.

pax
July 20, 2004, 10:31 PM
Closed -- because everything that really needs to be said has been said, because of declining civility, and because there's no need for dead-horse beating. ;)

pax

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