Police video of man shot in stomach


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shep854
July 19, 2004, 11:09 PM
This is the second such video I've seen; it is a tape of a perp trying to attack a police officer with a knife. The officer shoots the perp once in the belly, and he walks around complaining and asking for a drink of water before he starts fighting the officer again. The LEO finally uses a takedown move on him and cuffs him. I don't know what caliber ammo the officer used, but it illustrates graphically how little power a handgun really has.

The video was from the in-car camera of the police vehicle.

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TechBrute
July 19, 2004, 11:10 PM
video?

Nick1911
July 19, 2004, 11:14 PM
:confused:

HABU
July 19, 2004, 11:15 PM
Only on the high road will you not get reamed a new one for not posting a link.:D

Coronach
July 19, 2004, 11:20 PM
I've seen it as a training film. The officer in question seemed to be a whole lot too relaxed prior to the attack, he then shoots the guy, and proceeds to do...nothing to control the suspect.

It is bizarre. Like a surreal comedy meets Cops.

Mike

shep854
July 19, 2004, 11:24 PM
OOPS! I'm sorry, folks. I saw the video on a TV show this afternoon. I mentioned it as an example of just how weak a handgun is, but it's hard to discuss what one can't see.:o :uhoh:

ny32182
July 19, 2004, 11:26 PM
Hmmm.... weird.

I thought that was what the other 14 rounds were there for.

TechBrute
July 19, 2004, 11:32 PM
I thought that was what the other 14 rounds were there for. LOL!!! Too true. Screw double tap, I'm going for slide lock...

JPL
July 19, 2004, 11:58 PM
I'd think that shooting someone in the stomach would be a pretty terrible way to stop them.

What's in the stomach?

Mostly air and fluid, right?

No major blood vessels.

The only thing that might happen is for you to get lucky and hit the spine.

A rifle shot to the stomach might not be any better, really.

carpettbaggerr
July 20, 2004, 12:04 AM
Well, the liver is in the lower abdomen, too. Very vascular tissue, and it's not very resiliant -- the tissue fractures rather than tearing. A shot to the liver will put you down fairly quickly.

shep854
July 20, 2004, 12:13 AM
Perhaps the "just shoot them a little bit" to make them stop philosophy?
A variation on the leg shot?

In the lead-in to this video, the host gave no indication that the perp was anything but stone-cold sober. He attacked the officer with a knife jsut as he appeared to be opening a box which was later found to contain cocaine. He got 5 years for possession. I suppose the judge felt the bullet was sufficient punishment for assault.

chevrofreak
July 21, 2004, 07:31 PM
Was this the video where the suspect was on a highway or some such, and a police car comes up and blocks him at the guard rail?

DMF
July 21, 2004, 08:05 PM
If it's the video they showed us in trainingwith a white pickup, the guy is in shorts, and cop asks the suspect to open a box in the bed of the truck, and the suspect is allowed to go into the cab of the truck and retrieve a box cutter to open the box - if it is that one, the cop shot him once in the stomach with a .45ACP.

What most versions of that video don't show is the interview with the cop, where the reason the cop gave for reholstering and fighting with the guy is he had lost confidence in his weapon when the BG didn't go down with one shot. He had been told so many times that .45s had great "stopping power," "would knock a man down," "if you shoot someone with a .45 and they're still standing, check to see what's holding them up," etc, etc, that he was shocked the guy didn't go down with one shot. He believed the hype instead of learning the reality.

Was it a mistake to let the guy get a knife to open the box? Sure, but the cop was human, and he was there and survived we weren't so don't be too harsh in the judgement. As for what happens after the attack with the knife and the shooting, the cop initially thought the guy wouldn't last long with a gut shot from a .45, but the BG keeps re-engaging, and won't stop fighting. Each time the cop has him down and tries to get his cuffs out the BG starts fighting again. Eventually another motorist came to help the cop. BTW, the cop did get some cuts from the knife so some of his difficulty with the suspect was a result of the initial attack. The BG survived the shooting.

It demonstrates a few things, 1- a handgun, in ANY caliber does not have "stopping power" unless you get a direct CNS hit, 2- Someone determined to fight can be VERY dangerous and difficult to restrain, even after injured severely.

Many will argue that the officer should have continued to use deadly force (his gun) to stop the threat. That is debateable, and armchair quaterbacking. The only thing that counts is he did what was necessary to survive.

EDIT TO ADD: Shep you added the additional description with the info about the coke, while I was typing. Based on that additional info I am fairly certain we are talking about the same incident.

shep854
July 21, 2004, 08:37 PM
DMF, it sounds like it was the same incident. I'm sure not going to throw rocks at the officer. Making the mental switch from "peace" to "war" in a split second is tough, and has been the downfall of many a highly-trained individual.

I once saw a similar video on "COPS", I think, where an officer fought with a knife-wielding drunk, and shot him in the stomach, again with little immediate result.

Lesson: Real life ain't like the movies.

striker3
July 21, 2004, 10:52 PM
I also saw a training video where a state trooper pulls over a car. Everything proceeds calmly until the officer asks to search the vehicle. The man puts his hand in his pocket. The officer asked him several times to remove his hand from the pocket, and when the guy finally does, he comes out with a small pistol and shoots the officer. The officer's vest stopped the round, which was a .22. The officer then proceeded to fire 5 .357 magnum slugs into the BG. The BG went down, finally. When the officer raised his arm to use the mic on his shoulder, the BG fired again, hitting the officer in the armpit. By the time backup arrived, the officer was dead from a severed aorta, and the BG, who had 5 wounds, was concious, alert and in stable condition. It was later determined that the officer had never hit anywhere near a vital area.

The size, or amount of rounds fired means nothing without shot placement

DMF
July 22, 2004, 11:20 AM
striker,

That shot was the "Golden BB" so to speak. It entered the torso in the armpit where the vest is open for the arm, and penetrated far enough to reach the trooper's heart. The BG got off a lucky shot, especially considering he had already taken several center mass shots from the cop, and the cop was moving for cover. Small moving target, and it's unlikely he could have aimed there. Very sad day for the trooper.

Again, without a direct CNS hit there are no immediate stops. Even the heart shot to the trooper in that incident was not an immediate stop. Although incidents like that highlight why cops are often curt about things like hand placement and movement during encounters like traffic stops. They aren't being A-holes, they are trying to stay alive.

Coronach
July 22, 2004, 11:29 AM
Yes,

The second incident is the horrific Trooper Coates shooting. That has to be the most gut-wrenching training film I have ever seen. You watch him die, on camera. Slowly. And screaming into his walkie. :(

The first incident is indeed the same training tape I thought it was. And I agree with everything right up to this point:What most versions of that video don't show is the interview with the cop, where the reason the cop gave for reholstering and fighting with the guyFight the guy? More like reholster the weapon, walk around in a circle with the guy, talk to him, yell at him, and finally, after about a minute of dancing back and forth, ground him only to have him get back up again.

Yeah, I don't like armchair QBing people, and God only knows how a shooting would go if I had to do it...but I would hope that I would end up snatching up the guy I just shot and at least getting some cuffs on him. Yah know? :uhoh:

Mike

Edmond
July 22, 2004, 11:55 AM
I've seen it as a training film. The officer in question seemed to be a whole lot too relaxed prior to the attack, he then shoots the guy, and proceeds to do...nothing to control the suspect.

It is bizarre. Like a surreal comedy meets Cops.

Mike


Mike,

Maybe he was just shocked that the guy wasn't dropped after getting shot?

DMF
July 22, 2004, 12:19 PM
Mike,

It's been a while since I saw the film, but as I recall the BG backs up after being shot, the cop is unsure what to do as BG still has the knife, but isn't attacking, and hasn't gone down from the torso shot from the "man stopping .45" After BG drops the knife, the cop and BG dancing around as you say is the cop attempting to get the BG to comply with instructions, when BG attacks again they struggle and end up on the ground. As I said it's been a while since I saw the film, but as I recall they disengage at least once which resulted from the cop having trouble controlling the BG while trying to get him cuffed. I too would hope any fight I had would go better, but that cop in matter of seconds had gone from a consensual search, to a knife attack, then a shooting (with unexpected results), to a struggle with an injured and violent BG. Fights never go as planned, and we can hope to do better, but we weren't there. Hopefully we can all learn from that tape.

Eric Bryant
July 22, 2004, 07:27 PM
The officer then proceeded to fire 5 .357 magnum slugs into the BG. The BG went down, finally.

If I recall correctly, Officer Coates had his .357 loaded with 145gr Silvertips, which penetrate "only" 15" or so in gelatin. Given the fact that he was firing into a short 325-lb man from an odd upward angle, 15" of penetration was simply not enough to do the job.

This makes for a complicated ammo decision - what's underpenetration on a large man at a small angle will be overpenetration on a smaller person at a right angle. In this situation, it's hard to point the finger at any one aspect and single it out as the cause of the officer's death. Actually, that's not true - the malice and actions of the Bad Guy are to blame, but that's not easily controlled by any of us now, is it?

striker3
July 23, 2004, 12:30 AM
That shot was the "Golden BB" so to speak

That is true. But it is used to illustrate the point that it doesn't matter how big the bullet, or how many rounds you pump into someone, but where you hit, that matters. How much luck is in the killing shot is moot, it killed.

Coronach
July 23, 2004, 12:54 PM
Actually, from the discussion afterwards on our copy of the training tape, all 5 shots penetrated just fine, and missed vital structures by scant millimeters.

Its a crappy thing to say, but at the end of the day, the BG was really lucky and Coates was really unlucky. The only thing he did "wrong" (and this was a matter of the provided training being less than ideal) was that he paused to call for backup before achieving cover. Would any of us remember to get to cover first, given that we just got assaulted physically, then shot once in the chest (saved by the vest), emptied our own duty gun into the bad guy and seen him drop? I dunno.

Mike

Shane333
July 23, 2004, 01:16 PM
About two years ago we had a similar incident in Lehi, UT.

An officer pulled over some guy for a traffic offense. I forget the details right now, but at some point the officer tries to handcuff the badguy. As the officer is putting the cuffs on the guys left hand, the badguy pulls a hidden .22 handgun with his right hand and fires over his shoulder down into the cop's shoulder.

The bullet missed the vest, and penetrated deap down into the officer's chest cavity. The officer drew his gun and fired several times at point blank range into the badguy before falling to the ground and dying. The badguy drives off but gets caught a little while later with several abdominal wounds. Badguy survived multiple wounds from a centerfire handgun (at least 9mm) while the young cop died at the scene from a single .22 shot.

Very sad. The police officer left behind a young wife and toddler. Every police department in the state came to the funeral.

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