15 year old shot by bicyclist


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tommytrauma
July 21, 2004, 03:22 PM
Police: Bicyclist Shoots, Kills Teenager In Minivan
Victim 3 Months Pregnant
POSTED: 6:02 PM EDT July 20, 2004
UPDATED: 11:36 AM EDT July 21, 2004



MILWAUKEE -- Milwaukee police are searching for a cyclist who shot a 15-year-old girl to death early Tuesday morning.

It happened at Port Washington and Keefe about 2:30 a.m.

Police said the girl was one of many passengers in a minivan.

The victim's family told 12 News that the group in the minivan was throwing french fries and other food and likely hit the biker.

The biker pulled up to the van and started shooting, hitting Montrise Conley in the head, police said.

Conley died at Froedtert Hospital later Tuesday morning.

No one else was hurt.

Her family told 12 News she was three months pregnant.

"I'm just in a daze, because Sweet Pea, she don't do much. She's 15. I don't understand," Conley's friend, Wesley Moore, said.

"What I'm really feeling sad about most of all is an innocent person getting killed. She called and said she was on her way home, and the next call, 10 or 15 minutes later -- she's shot," Conley's step-grandmother, Della Clipps, said.

According to police, the suspect is described as a black man, 20 to 25 years old, 6 feet tall, slim to medium build with a round face and short, low-cut hair. He was wearing a black short-sleeved T-shirt and black pants.

Hmmm. 15, 3 months pregnant, out at 2:30 in the morning on a weeknight harassing passers by. Nothing like a little proactive parenting.

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Muzzleflash
July 21, 2004, 03:26 PM
The cyclist did some good shooting, though. One handed from a moving bike to a moving van.

Zundfolge
July 21, 2004, 03:36 PM
Well its clear that we need to ban bicycles or French Fries ... or maybe even black men.

:rolleyes:

thefitzvh
July 21, 2004, 03:37 PM
While I don't condone the bikers actions, and hope he pays dearly for what he did, I must say this:

15 years old and pregnant, out late, acting like an ???????. Sounds to me like the gene pool just got cleaner.


James

MP5
July 21, 2004, 03:59 PM
Nothing like a little proactive parenting.

If the government wants to protect kids, they shouldn't lock away guns but rather lock away all the incompetent and irresponsible parents who do more harm than good. Sounds like perp and victim alike didn't get good parenting by a longshot (no pun intended).

Vern Humphrey
July 21, 2004, 04:06 PM
Quote:
---------------------------------------------------
Defend America's honor and civil liberties: vote Bush out.
----------------------------------------------------

Which is to say, "Vote Kerry in."

Yeah -- let's hear it for gun registration, a new and more draconian AWB, and ultimately no firearms at all in private hands.

That'll protect our honor and civil liberties!:barf:

thefitzvh
July 21, 2004, 04:08 PM
Hey, how bout we play a nice game of keep-the-damn-thread-on-topic-and-talk-about-sigs-in-PMs?

Your move.

RustyHammer
July 21, 2004, 04:11 PM
:banghead:

Penforhire
July 21, 2004, 04:29 PM
Too much cognitive dissonance when I read this. Killing someone for throwing food is just plain wrong. But throwing food is just plain wrong too. I know there is an order of magnitude difference but my head still hurts. People out there are stupid AND dangerous.

MP5
July 21, 2004, 04:36 PM
People out there are stupid AND dangerous.

And the politicos will probably go for the easy, cop-out, sound-bite answer, as usual: blame the weapon instead of the idiot wielding it.

"An armed society is a polite society." That's only half the equation: the other half is that "a society of people who embody personal responsibility, tolerance, respect for self and others, patience, and compassion is a polite society."

hops
July 21, 2004, 04:42 PM
Would like to hear the shooter's version of the events. The Van occupants admit to throwing food at a moving bicyclist. That borders on assault in my book. Perhaps where the VAN's innocent occupants trying to cause the bicyclist to 'crash' and injure himself? Perhaps the VAN made 'threatening' moves toward the biker as well??????

Tough lesson for the VAN's innocent occupants. Don't throw food at other people. They may throw lead back at higher velocity. Moron's.......

The biker is the victim here - he was provoked for no good reason in to making a poor choice by idiots. Still a very poor choice on his part, one that he may end up paying dearly for.

Oleg Volk
July 21, 2004, 04:48 PM
At least there's no ethnic difference between the two actors, else we'd hear more about summer riots.

StopTheGrays
July 21, 2004, 04:52 PM
That happened in the crap hole section of Milwaukee called the Core. That sort of thing happens there all the time. I am surprised they even printed the race of the victims and the perp. Most times they gloss that over so as not to "offend" anyone.:rolleyes:


I look at it as just one more reason CCW is needed in WI. With violent people like that shooter out there people need a way to defend themselves.

Muzzleflash
July 21, 2004, 05:04 PM
I'm going to have to find out if I can shoot accurately from a bicycle.

TallPine
July 21, 2004, 05:05 PM
They should make it illegal to carry food in a car now.

:rolleyes:

Vern Humphrey
July 21, 2004, 05:08 PM
Quote:
-------------------------------------
They should make it illegal to carry food in a car now.
-------------------------------------

Well, they should certainly outlaw french fry boxes that hold more than ten frys!:D

R.H. Lee
July 21, 2004, 05:14 PM
The biker is the victim here

uhhhhhh.......I'm not so sure about that. How does shooting a passenger in a van equate to self defense(an immediate need to stop a lethal threat with lethal force)???

Vern Humphrey
July 21, 2004, 05:22 PM
I will assume that most of us have a Concealed Handgun License (as we call it in Arkansas) and have taken the necessary training.

I don't think any of us can read the story as it has been presented so far, and objectively conclude that the biker was in reasonable fear of imminent death or grevious bodily harm.

Going beyond that, I don't think we can say if he DID feel he was in imminent danger, killing the girl was the correct way to protect himself.

So, based on what we know now, we would be irresponsible to label the biker as the victim.

Remember, antis sometimes read these posts -- and would use such a rush to defend the man with the gun as evidence that gun owners are irresponsible.

PBIR
July 21, 2004, 05:30 PM
The biker is the victim here - he was provoked for no good reason in to making a poor choice by idiots. Still a very poor choice on his part, one that he may end up paying dearly for.


That is the most ignorant statement I have ran across in awhile. He murdered a teen-age girl for throwing french fries at him.


Regardless of how immature or irresponsible with her sex life the girl (VICTIM) was, there is no justification for the cyclist's actions. I say charge the POS with 2nd degree murder and throw him under the jail. Scum like this are the reason we have to fight so hard to overcome the negative associations with firearms.

Sleeping Dog
July 21, 2004, 05:37 PM
This whole story sounds a little fishy.

A french fry? From a passing van at 2am? Would any bicycle rider even notice something like that?

I'd guess there was a lot more "exchanging" going on than that. I'd bet the shooter had history with someone in the van, maybe the driver, maybe the girl.

Anyway, I wouldn't call the bicyclist "the victim" here. He's not the one in the ground.

Regards.

Warren
July 21, 2004, 06:20 PM
I'd say that the bike rider and all the occupants of the van have a long history of making bad decisions. Eventually that kind of thing will bite you in rear.

This is what happened here.

It's too bad for the girl. I'll make damn sure my girls are raised better.

WhiteKnight
July 21, 2004, 06:24 PM
What I'm really feeling sad about most of all is an innocent person getting killed

IMHO a 15 year-old pregnant girl isn't at all innocent. :scrutiny:


How does shooting a passenger in a van equate to self defense(an immediate need to stop a lethal threat with lethal force)???

I can honestly say I've feared for my life more than once while biking. I've had empty glass beer bottles, magazines, and even rocks thrown at me from windows of passing automobiles who occasionally purposefully swerve unnecessarily close to me and blare the horn simply in the hope I'll run off the road. Is that "a lethal threat?" Any time there is a significant chance I may die due to the deliberate actions of others I do consider it a lethal threat. Are you ever afraid of terrible drivers while in your car? Imagine being on a bike.

wasrjoe
July 21, 2004, 06:27 PM
I'd agree with Sleeping Dog RE their probably being a bigger altercation than just throwing french fries. However, the girl did NOTHING (that is to say, she did not try to kill the man) to provoke using a firearm. She is the victim. I am very sorry this happened to her and her would-be child.

Greybeard
July 21, 2004, 06:40 PM
Quote: "I am very sorry this happened to her and her would-be child."

Yep, same here. But it sound like, odds are, that would-be child would likely have grown up in an environment conducive to developing a mentallity like that of the shooter. :(

Gameface
July 21, 2004, 06:41 PM
The whole story sounds fishy.

A french fry from a passing van? If he was on a bike and didn't alrady have the gun in hand then a passing van should have been gone before he could have "pulled up and shot." The whole story is far from being told.

Gameface

PBIR
July 21, 2004, 06:46 PM
I tell you what, some of you need a reality check.

IMHO a 15 year-old pregnant girl isn't at all innocent.

So females who have had sex are free game for murder?

"No officer, you've got it all wrong! It was alright for me to explode her head like an over-ripe watermelon with my .357 magnum. She hit me with a deep fried potato string and she is a fornicator!!! She had it coming, I tell you!!!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

You know, these forums are fair game to anyone on the internet. Is this the mentality we (firearm enthusiasts) need out there for the world to see? There is nothing to prevent these sort of comments from showing up in anti-gun propaganda.

Standing Wolf
July 21, 2004, 06:52 PM
The victim's family told 12 News that the group in the minivan was throwing french fries and other food and likely hit the biker.

See? That proves it! French fries cause crime. We need to register every French fry and license French fry owners.

joab
July 21, 2004, 07:10 PM
I think there is much more to this story than we are hearing.
Generally what is admitted to is about half of the story

benewton
July 21, 2004, 07:48 PM
Can't both sides lose?

Doubt that the whole story will ever get told, but I fail to see any significant loss to society in the killing of a pregnant female of 15 out past midnight on any night.

On the other hand, since throwing objects at people isn't normally considered by police/officialdom as an assault....

Still, while I've the means, I never want to have to fire, and I object to those who do so without a hugely good reason to do so.

So, perhaps both will lose in the end.

The problem is, how to arrange thing so it costs the rest of us nothing.

joab
July 21, 2004, 07:50 PM
but I fail to see any significant loss to society in the killing of a pregnant female of 15 out past midnight on any night

DAMN!!!!!!!!

PBIR
July 21, 2004, 07:55 PM
I fail to see any significant loss to society in the killing of a pregnant female of 15 out past midnight on any night


Judging by that remark there are countless things you fail to see. Try and remember that attitude when it's your daughter.

cracked butt
July 21, 2004, 08:02 PM
I find nothing suprising about this story, its pretty much par for the course in Milwaukee on any given day. The G--d--- governor and the politicos of Milwaukee will not allow citizens of our state to carry concealed weapons, but punks like this do it illegally everyday. I'm going to call a spade a spade here- the man was a punk and a criminal as he was willing to break the law and carry a gun while law abiding citizens can not, then go shoot someone over a trivial matter.

Nothing that happens in Milwaukee suprises me anymore. If it isn't a gangbanger murdering a woman and her kids execution style outside of a restaurant so he can have their bucket of chicken, its wolfpacks of teenages running around beating people to death. I wish the whole damn city would slide into Lake Michigan:fire:

Warren
July 21, 2004, 08:11 PM
Does WonderNine live in Wisconsin?















:neener:

Oleg Volk
July 21, 2004, 09:37 PM
Considering the short range of a thrown french fry, I'd think the shooting was in response to being almost run over by a van. If so, that was an attempted homicide...but we don't have the full story here.

As for the death being no loss, again, that depends on the actions of the deceased. And even then, it was probably a loss to her parents, of companionship or of revenue, or both.

XLMiguel
July 21, 2004, 10:01 PM
Sounds like sleazebags all around. Re: loss to society, hard to tell, younguns often outgrow adlescent onset crainial rectitus to become productive members of society, though known track record to date ain't encouraging.:rolleyes:

Cracked Butt, I usta sail on L. Michigan and it was polluted enough, lets wish a good fire on 'em instead.:neener:

Mostly, this is an object lesson that actions and choices have consequence. Unfortunately, no one really seems to be paying attention to the lesson.:barf:

Fred Fuller
July 21, 2004, 10:05 PM
Most likely there is a lot more to be told here, though doubtless it will not surface soon. Whatever the situation was, it is hard for me to see how a biker who had time to fire at the van, could not have in the same amount of time relatively easily evaded the van and broken contact with the occupants without involving gunfire. Not my intent to pick on assaulted bikers, just trying to analyze the deadly force equation here. And IMHO it doesn't add up to justifiable in any way I can see, given the story as presented so far. Even given an apparent attempt by the van driver to employ the vehicle as a deadly weapon, the attempt wasn't successful if the biker could open fire. And if an attempt by the driver failed, _and the driver did not repeat the attempt_, a lethal reposte would still seem questionable.

But stupidity can still be fatal, to self or others, and never requires justification...

lpl/nc

Josey
July 21, 2004, 10:09 PM
Oleg, I 100% agree. the welfare/SSI/WIC/food stamps that 15 y/o and her baby would have brought into that family is lost now. I guess the family will file a wrongful death suit through a legal services attorney that the taxpayers fund. The shooter would have to be caught first. I sense that the entire truth is not being told or there is media bias.:what:

Rebeldon
July 21, 2004, 10:28 PM
They should sue McDonald's!!!!

They didn't print any warning on the side of the French fry box about how throwing French fries at bicyclists can result in serious injury or death.

joab
July 21, 2004, 10:30 PM
The victim's family told 12 News that the group in the minivan was throwing french fries and other food and likely hit the biker. This is the phrase that got my attention. Instead of "Had thrown some fries" , to me, this implies that it was a sustained attack. Maybe I'm just splittin hairs though

However I would think that the high roady attitude to take would be to analize the actions of the victim that may or may not have contributed to the event, not make assumptions about her social economic position based on her chastity, race or the fact that she was out late during summer break, or the fact that her family name was Seet pea.

JohnKSa
July 21, 2004, 11:01 PM
I think this story is going to develop a bit...seems to me some details are missing.

1. How many grown men are out on bicycles at 2:30AM on a weeknight?
2. How does a bicyclist catch up to a car?
3. A minivan with "many passengers" including a pregnant 15 year old is kind of an interesting vehicle to be on the road at 2:30AM.
4. "throwing french fries and other food and likely hit the biker" is an interesting statement coming from the victim's family. I wonder if other food items could include beverage bottles and maybe anything else loose in the car?
5. Pulled up to the car and "started shooting" at a minivan with "many passengers" and only one person was hit?

aut2no
July 21, 2004, 11:43 PM
so funny:

"Well, they should certainly outlaw french fry boxes that hold more than ten frys!" Vern Humphreys

so sad:
" but I fail to see any significant loss to society in the killing of a pregnant female of 15 out past midnight on any night." benewton

Nightfa11
July 22, 2004, 12:01 AM
1. How many grown men are out on bicycles at 2:30AM on a weeknight?

Good Question


2. How does a bicyclist catch up to a car?

Stop light?

3. A minivan with "many passengers" including a pregnant 15 year old is kind of an interesting vehicle to be on the road at 2:30AM.

Another good question, and directly related to #1

4. "throwing french fries and other food and likely hit the biker" is an interesting statement coming from the victim's family. I wonder if other food items could include beverage bottles and maybe anything else loose in the car?

It certainly could. And if the driver was also a teenager (or anyone for that matter) a certain amount of swerving is almost necessary. Does anyone else think this story MIGHT be a bit lopsided

5. Pulled up to the car and "started shooting" at a minivan with "many passengers" and only one person was hit?

Here's where it gets interesting. Where did all the bullets go? Can the police tell if the van was moving or sitting still. The angle of shot penetration might also tell if the person sped away (if possible, caught behind someone at a stop light sort of traps you). How many times was she hit? Where was she sitting? Lots of unanswered questions.

The verdict: A tragedy, and one we know so little about, it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge. I think it's possible that the guy was a loony who retaliated with far too much force. I also think it's possible that the driver made threatening lurches with the van at the bicycle, thereby leaving the rider in fear for his life (Police have shot people before for the same thing).

I consider both possibilities equal, and further take the advice that my 15 year old will NOT be out that late w/o parental suprvision :)

Molly
July 22, 2004, 01:31 AM
Don't bring a French fry to a gun fight.

gunsmith
July 22, 2004, 02:28 AM
The victim's family told 12 News that the group in the minivan was throwing french fries and other food and likely hit the biker.

Don't do that!

cracked butt
July 22, 2004, 02:31 AM
I think alot of people ARE missing an important point here. In Milwaukee as well as in the entire state of Wisconsin, it is ILLEGAL to carry a concealed weapon, this very fact does not deter a large number of people from doing so anyhow- I would bet a large portion of them have a criminal history.

Second of all, a bicycle is far more maneuverable than a van. A guy on a bike getting something thrown at him can easily turn down an ally or a sidestreet to get away and later make a police report. Retaliating by firing into a van because someone threw something at you is a CRIMINAL act.

Its this kind of crap that comes up when CCW is discussed in that the 'blood of innocent children' will run in the streets if we allow citizens to carry protection.

15 year old pregnant girl? So what. It happens all of the time. Being Black, 15 and pregnant does not make one a criminal nor someone who deserves to be executed by some nutjob, and whether or not she collected welfare is irrelevant, she was still a human being. I know plenty of white girls who were pregnant at similar ages, some of them collected welfare, others did not.

If the people in the van were not shot at, it might have been another vehicle that was attacked if they somehow offended the man's thin ego, and it could have been one of our mothers, sisters, or daughters that might have been shot.

Anyone who thinks the shooter was anywhere near being right in his actions needs to have there head checked.

gunsmith
July 22, 2004, 03:10 AM
Face crap like this all the time. If you don't have a car then riding a bike is better then walking. Sure you can hop on a side walk or something...
But when you ride a bike every day for transportation or work you realize that the vast majority of car drivers are oblivious to how dangerous their cars are. Car (owners) kill and maim at much higher numbers then gun (owners)...I have had people threaten my life even though I was obeying every rule of the road.
I'm willing to bet the car occupants did more then hit the guy with a french fry.
It's still wrong of course but YOU try using only your bike for transportation for a few months and you will have a new perspective.


People feel it's ok to threaten cyclist for just being on the same road as their car...I don't know if this is what happened but it looks like it.

cracked butt
July 22, 2004, 04:23 AM
Gunsmith- I don't think this whole ordeal has anything to do with a bicycle or bicycle messengers, and if I were in either one of those categories I sure wouldn't want to relate to the man. The man was just a thug who happened to be carrying a gun and riding a bicycle.

If you were riding a bicycle for work and carrying, being a rational human being, I doubt that you would pull up to a vehicle and unload your gun into it because they happened to cut you off or nearly sideswiped you a block back.

Beren
July 22, 2004, 08:19 AM
Gunsmith:

I agree with you fully. I usually only bicycle in the evenings or on weekends, but there are many, many drivers who are aggressive and hostile even though I am in full compliance with the law. I make every effort not to hold up traffic, but some people cannot be pleased. There are certainly circumstances under which a bicyclist would be justified in using lethal force to defend themselves, especially in urban areas where it's not as easy to flee off-road.

I have had *school buses* try to run me off the road, and kids on the bus threw trash at me as the bus passed. Not an event justifying lethal force, obviously, but it did result in an irate cellphone call to the school in question and a complaint to the school board. I usually consider thrown debris from cars to be aggravated assault - even a plastic bottle with some water in it can do considerable damage to you if it hits at 30-40 MPH. (Not to mention what happens if its impact causes you to crash.)

We don't know the full story with this guy. From the account in the paper, his actions were unjustified. The account in the paper, of course, is incomplete and probably biased. I've heard some complain that "the guy was carrying a gun illegally" as though that makes him guilty by default. Whatever happened to "rather be judged by twelve than carried by six?"

The occupants in the van were not, however, "innocent victims." They appear to have instigated the chain of events leading to the girl's death, and the girl herself appears to have been a willing particpant in that instigation. No, it doesn't justify what the shooter did - but I highly doubt any shooting would have taken place had the occupants of the van not deigned to throw objects at the biker.

MikeB
July 22, 2004, 09:32 AM
I have in the past ridden a bike everywhere - work, grocery store, etc. for a period of two years. Including at almost 2:30 in the morning on my way to a third shift job. Most people that don't ride bikes don't understand just how dangerous having things thrown at you can be. While the bicyclist should probably have tried to disengage, a case for self-defense when assaulted on a bike can be made. Yes throwing things at people is an ASSAULT - regardless of what is thrown, the target of the throwing wouldn't necessarily know what was coming at them.

Now that being said - I wasn't there and there is a whole lot of important facts left out of that article.

jefnvk
July 22, 2004, 05:45 PM
Not to get this topic of-topic, but I'll bet that the man gets charged for two murders.

Anyway, A group of teens driving around at 2:30 is not a bad thing always. I do it quite often with my friends. Those same teens throwing things at bikers just makes them idiots in my opinion, or someone that is looking for trouble. By that same theory, guys riding bikes around with guns in a city is not necessarialy a bad thing eiher. Shooting someone throwing food at him also makes him an idiot or someone looking for trouble. It is obvious that we do not know all the facts. Perhaps there was something between these people already, and this incident pushed him over the edge. maybe the driver did attempt to hit them. Propbbly the only story you will hear is the girls friends/family's, even if this man is caught.

tommytrauma
July 22, 2004, 10:06 PM
Not to get this topic of-topic, but I'll bet that the man gets charged for two murders.

Anyway, A group of teens driving around at 2:30 is not a bad thing always. I do it quite often with my friends. Those same teens throwing things at bikers just makes them idiots in my opinion, or someone that is looking for trouble. By that same theory, guys riding bikes around with guns in a city is not necessarialy a bad thing eiher. Shooting someone throwing food at him also makes him an idiot or someone looking for trouble. It is obvious that we do not know all the facts. Perhaps there was something between these people already, and this incident pushed him over the edge. maybe the driver did attempt to hit them. Propbbly the only story you will hear is the girls friends/family's, even if this man is caught.

Do you drive around someplace like inner city Milwaukee at 2:30 in the morning? My 15 year old daughter certanly doesn't. Of course, she's not pregnant either.

Are you 15 for that matter? Or a bit older? 15 is too young to be out at 2:30 in the morning cruising around inner city Milwaukee looking for trouble. Or maybe I'm just an over protective parent.

4v50 Gary
July 22, 2004, 11:10 PM
It's one thing to be pissed, but the outrage did not justify taking a human life. Betcha anything the suspect is the type Michael Moore would want on an airplane in case there's another hi-jacking. As for Michael Moore, he'd egg the guy on while hiding behind a stewardess (not being sexist and I know they're flight attendants, but I can see Moore hiding behind a 110 lb female).

Third_Rail
July 22, 2004, 11:15 PM
That was an awful joke.... :D :D :D


but I can see Moore hiding behind a 110 lb female

How could you NOT?! :rolleyes:

mussi
July 23, 2004, 08:34 AM
That's IMO the clear-cut case where a healthy dose of pepper spray will reeducate the kids in the car.

HankB
July 23, 2004, 10:46 AM
We're only hearing one side of the story - I suspect there was more than a french fry thrown.

And even if there wasn't, throwing things at a bicycle rider in the middle of the night isn't the act of a fine, upstanding citizen.

Shooting someone for throwing a french fry isn't right, either. Was there something else thrown? Was there something else going on? We just don't know, since we only have one side of the story. And only PART of one side of the story at that. And we don't even know how much of THAT is true!

We can conclude that NOBODY in this story was/is a credit to society. We need a lot more information - RELIABLE information - to determine who was "most" in the wrong.

AND . . . we can also conclude that bad things happen when bad people come into conflict with one another. From the (limited) information presented, I'm just glad no true innocents were involved.

StopTheGrays
July 23, 2004, 12:42 PM
This will more than likely throw some gas on the fire but I cannot really get worked up about what happened. I was for about a day then I pushed the feelings aside. The people in that area have a lower regard for life than people in and around Milwaukee do. It is a fact, known by all around the Milwaukee area. Though an act just like this rarely happens, it does happen and will happen again.



This link contains the police report for the North Side of Milwaukee, the majority of the activity takes place in the area where the shooting happened over a 2 week period.

(If prompted to register use the email address I used...fake@email.com)

Milwaukee Police Report North-Side (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul04/245028.asp)


This link contains the police report from the South Side of Milwaukee which is outside of the area where the shooting happened.

Milwaukee Police Report South-Side (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul04/245026.asp)


Compare the two locations and the types and amount of crime going on.

aut2no
July 23, 2004, 02:29 PM
<That's IMO the clear-cut case where a healthy dose of pepper spray will reeducate the kids in the car.>

Let me get this straight. You're on a bicycle, pull up to the van full of people stopped at the red light, apply Fox OC to all occupants of the vehicle (innocent or guilty).

2 possible scenarios follow:

First, someone in the van pulls a gun out and blows you away, possibly also hitting innococent bystanders. (The shooter can't see well, so spray & pray is the style)

Second scenario - the driver, who can't see now, panics & floors it ...running the red light and crashes into another car in the intersection and lots of people dead now.

I have been in several life threatening encounters (unfortunately), however (fortunately), through Divine Providence, Luck or my own instinctive reactions (in that order) I have avoided using lethal force. (I did have spray someone who tried to stab me & yes, unbelievably, I had to go to court to defend my action)

The situation in this thread (albeit some facts missing), seem to make me believe that the bicyclist, upon being harrassed, shoulda done a 180 - avoid the van, call the police. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong...or the others deserving revenge. IF you carry a firearm or spray and you find yourself expressing your anger by an "I'll show them" attitude, then you need to rethink carrying.

And most certainly just being a pregnant 15 year old out at 2:30 am is not deserving of capital punishment for 2 lives.

I have lurked on The High Road and now participate to understand, in part, how I can learn more to AVOID situations that could accelerate into someone's death - mine or theirs. I, of course, hope to learn new strategies and mindset if & when I must unavoidably ENGAGE.

There have been 2 murders in my family. One involved her failure to avoid an anticipated situation. The other was a failure to engage and defend himself. That can be a discussion on a new thread if I choose to open that up.

HadEmAll
July 24, 2004, 12:59 AM
The wrongs done by the people in this story are obvious. What leaps out at me after reading through this post is how many posters here took "French fries and other food" and have tweaked it to "a french fry". No wonder cops and lawyers get so many versions of a story.

cracked butt
July 24, 2004, 01:19 AM
I can concur with what STG said.
I worked on the North side of Milwaukee for a few years, some of the locals tell me that some of the neighborhoods that are complete sh-*holes now were pretty nice not 15 years earlier. Alot of the businesses have packed up and moved out including all of the stores in fairly good sized shopping mall- the crime in this report was a few mile east of where I worked, but there was also a man killed in a shooting not a block from where I worked about 3 years ago. The regard for life in this part of Milwaukee is very low.

PBIR
July 24, 2004, 08:01 AM
What leaps out at me after reading through this post is how many posters here took "French fries and other food" and have tweaked it to "a french fry".

I didn't feel a need to type out "and other food" in my post. Unless that food was whole watermelons or legs of lamb, it really doesn't make a bit of difference when compared to french fries. Most likely the other food consisted of other fast-food menu items, hardly life-threatening stuff unless we are talking about ingesting it.

What leapt out at me was an unarmed 15 year old kid being blown away by some nutjob who should have just exfil'ed the area. And the fact that some people are so unbalanced they think this is a righteous shoot. I wouldn't sell a firearm or ammunition to anyone in my store who voiced that sentiment.

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