[Puncha]

I was reading a short story last night about 17th century west indies pirates and it mentioned that the cutlass was the ideal weapon for the stout but untutored fighter.

So.....what do you guys think would be the best bladed weapon for an individual with limited weaponscraft skills but with a fair bit of muscle and quite a bit of moxie or courage?

Would the CS 1917 cutlass make a fair choice?

[Skofnung]

Hand an untrained person ANY hand melee weapon (stick, knife, rapier, axe, ect...) and I will bet 9 out of 10 of them will swing whatever you give them in an arc, chopping as opposed to thrusting or cutting. This is natural, as it is the way we are built.

So, a chopping blade with hand protection... Sounds good to me, as it will lend itself to "natural" attacks. A rapier or even a backsword of the time would require a more refined use, though the backsword would be a little easier for a non-pro to use than the rapier.

Broadly speaking, the most effective bladed weapon for ANYONE, training or no, has always been and will always be the lowly spear.

In terms of swords, a cutlass/hanger would be a great choice for a bully-boy, although anytime you use the word "best" you are going to spark disagreement.

The "short-saber" makes a grim CQB tool. The 1917 model is a good one, though the British 1805 is arguably "better"

Edited to add:
I did not see the "CS" in front the 1917 before. By all accounts that I have heard, the Cold Steel 1917 is worth what you pay for it. You can still find old 1917's around, and they are suposedly better quality, but they cost twice as much when you can find them... You should be just fine with the CS.

[Jim March]

I would have to agree, a basic 20" - 22" sword of moderate heft and with a full handguard is a very brutal CQB weapon in anybody's hands.

[Kjay]

A few to view...

[JShirley]

One of the HI kukuris in the 18-21" range would make a great entry close-quarters weapon. If you check out the HI Forum at Bladeforums.com for a few days, you can probably pick up a blem (cosmetic probs only) for less than $100, with a lifetime guarantee (which does not apply if you something boneheaded like throwing your kukuri).

Here's is a HI 21" Chitlangi, rather like the one sitting on my dresser, by my bed.

http://store7.yimg.com/I/yhst-7333098713883_1801_2161599

[Warren]

I love learning about this stuff.



Broadly speaking, the most effective bladed weapon for ANYONE, training or no, has always been and will always be the lowly spear.


Why is this? Because it is long and with proper skill can reach out and touch someone without exposing the user to an -counter-attack by someone with a shorter weapon?

Because it forces you to attack up the middle at a person's vitals rather than try to hack through from the outside?


Would a collapseable spear, in the same basic design as an ASP baton, be a workable weapon?

[JShirley]

Spears are easy to learn to use. I know of three thrusting motions, plus the whole body charge. All work.

Spears give distance.

As one's skill improves with a spear, one is not limited to just a thrusting attack. ;)

John

[Warren]

That's good to know.

That would make a good workout tape.

Instead of Tae-Bo it would be Thrust-Stab or maybe something a little less violent sounding to bring in the soccermoms. :D

[JShirley]

Instead of Tae-Bo it would be Thrust-Stab or maybe something a little less violent sounding to bring in the soccermoms. Seriously. We can call it "Focused Intent" or something. :)

The most basic spear kata I know is sword vs. spear. Swordsman is facing his partner in the seigan guard position. Spear wielder thrusts toward swordsman's exposed hand/forearm.

If the swordsman does not move, he gets his forearm slashed. If he does move, immediately use another thrust to attack the body.

Thrust:
1. Like a pool cue, but with the palm up on the lead hand, to take the greater weight of the spear. Rear hand slips toward the butt of the spear, grasps, and the lead hand lets the spear slide through as you thrust w/ rear.
2. Like a bayonet. Lead hand is still palm up, rear hand is palm down, holding spear near your centerline, bladed towards target. Extend your arms quickly upward and towards target. You will be more likely to have to also take a step with this attack.
3. Reverse the "pool cue" tsuki thrust. Instead of letting the rear hand slip
back, grasp, and thrust, let the lead hand slip back, and let the shaft slide through the rear hand. Perhaps not so powerful as the first two, but very deceptive.

Combine any two of these attacks to perform the kata.

Joh

[Warren]

Cool.

So how about that idea of having an ASP like thing that is a spear instead of a baton.

Would it work?

[JShirley]

I'm doubting it, unless there was some method to lock the spear out once extended, via pin.

A deployed ASP, though not suggested to be used this way in the ASP course, would hurt if you did a straight in thrust to, say, the diaphragm. (ASP teaches a push with the baton parallel to your midriff, as opposed to pointing tip towards attacker.

I am selling an ASP (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93094), incidentally. ;)

John

[Warren]

Sorry I live in California, not only am I so mentally unstable that I have to wait 10 days after purchase before picking up a gun, I am not allowed to own an segmented telescoping metal tube unless it has lenses in it.
:cuss:


For stabilizing the ASPEAR how about another metal tube with flanges that runs up the middle and telescopes with the outer tube. Then with a twist of the grip the flanges deploy and lock the segments in place.


The whole thing might be a little heavy, but damn, you would have a concealable spear!

[JShirley]

Yeah, that would work, as long as it was built to not collapse under pressure.

Sorry about the Cali thing- visited last year. Met some nice folks, but I couldn't live there.

John

[Hawk]

Of all the stuff that Himalayan Imports has ever put out, the Falcata has got to be the all time beast with respect to the ratio of devastation generated with little to no experience required.

Kinda like a Khuk on steroids.

I believe there was a history note on bladeforums that the Falcata was the design that single-handedly convinced the Romans what a great idea it would be to add steel bands to the wooden shields then in vogue.

Overall length around 28"

[Dr.Rob]

The Cutlass is ideal... esp. used by one eyed men drunk on rum and crazy with scurvy.

But you have to learn the lingo that comes with use of a cutlass. Any mall ninja worth his ????akis can blubber up some cool sounding "kata" like the "8 blossoms of Autumn" stroke.

A proper pirate would say something like "Aavst though scalliwag for I'd cleave the knave to chops and feed thy living guts to the sharks!" or "Stand aside landlubber of I'll see thee boiled in pitch and sold to the natives!" Or something really poetic like "My iron shall oil well in your belly grease fair pig!"

Another common tactic to use while engaging in witty reparte with an intruder is to draw your cuttoe, and then behind your back fetch a pistol loaded hard and gut-shoot the poor bugger. Tis'nt christian but niether were his aims when he come round to 'ave at me dabloons.

You may also want to read up on the use of fighting irons, boarding axes, belaying pins and dirks.

[kannonfyre]

How would a large kitchen cleaver fit into this scenario?

[JShirley]

Large choppy thing. Good. Some point would be good, too, but without training, most people tend to swing anyway.

[Jim March]

"Goblin, meet cleaver"...

[George Hill]

Dr. Rob had me chortling into my mug of rum.

Aye, a Cutlass.


:evil:

[Warren]

Spear fightin' (http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pole.html) link

[Warren]

Okay it's a staff fightin' link but you only need to add a pointy bit to the end of your stick to make it a spear fightin' link.

[Puncha]

Would the Cold Steel Scottish Dirk be effective in untrained or half trained hands?

How does it compare to your average USGI machete?

[Skofnung]

Well, I don't know exactly what you mean b effective, but if you mean could an untrained person kill with it? Yes.

http://www.islandsecuritystore.com/media/88SD.bmp

My only problem with the CS dirk is the guard does not look very substantial. In a knife that will be doing alot of thrusting, I look for a guard that will keep my hand from slipping onto the edge. I'm not saying I need a full crossguard, just a little more protrusion than on the CS model. The old dirks and "ballock" daggers on which the dirk was based would fit the bill.

Comparing a dirk to a machete is an apples to coconuts type thing. Dirks are mainly for stabbing. Machetes are hackers. That and the blade of the dirk is probably thicker than a USGI Machete.

I am quite partial to dirks, as a large % of my bloodline hails from Scotland, but a short sword or a cudgel of some form would make a better all around weapon. Ymmv.

[Spinner]

How about the Samurai Home Defense weapn of choice .... the naginata.

Its basically a short sword on a short staff ......... voilá the sword with the distance .... a pointy stick that cuts and thrusts.

Spinner

[Warren]

Naginata eh?

Good choice Kiwi Ninja!

[JShirley]

Any of these would work, though the last is probably a bit on the small side, at 14" OAL...

John

[Boats]

Did someone say boarding axe?
http://www.hbforge.com/lrgspikedaxe.gif
Naval boarding axe (http://www.hbforge.com/tomahawks.html)