[bad LT]

Hello all,

First off let me just state that I am a "newbee" to this forum who is impressed by the amount of information and advise available.

Anyway, here is my problem: I have a girlfriend who will be moving into an apartment this year and I am concerned about her saftey. I'd like to give her a weapon of some sort that she could use inside the apartment in case of an intruder. Yea I know all of you are probably thinking "get her a shotgun", but she has no experience with firearms so it would be irresponsible to get her a gun. Anyway here are the options I am considering:

1. A katana - She has spent several years in martial arts and is familiar with its use

2. A staff - Same reason as the katana

3. A big can of pepper spray - No need to conceal it in the apartment so might as well make it really big.

Any other recomendations? Also who makes a good, reasonably priced katana (priority to function over astestics)?

[Reno]

I know you said not to mention it, but I think a shotgun would be best. Just have to get her in a women's safety course, and take her out for some practice with it.

I think pepper spray could cause more harm than good, since there's no significant ventilation in the apartment.

[JShirley]

Welcome to THR.

Softball bat. Easily explained, fairly effective.

Remember, though, that the nations with the most highly developed martial artists abandoned most of their intensive training when reliable and rapidly loadable firearms were developed.

Firearms- the great equalizer. Start slowly, maybe with an intro to firearms from somone else, and in less time than it takes to learn a kata well, she'll have the firearms basics mastered.

John

[Bix]

Welcome to the board, LT!

With several years' martial arts experience, your girlfirend is already ahead of the game. Nice.

You suggested that whatever style she practices involves some weapons training. The obvious advice, then, is for her to arm herself with whatever she is most comfortable/proficient with. But I expect you already thought of that :)

I like the idea of a large can of pepper spray within arm's reach of the bed. Cross contamination issues can be mitigated by using a foam-type spray.

Regarding firearms inexperience: As a fellow Illinoisian, I can tell you there are several excellent, resonably-priced training opportunities in our state (and close by in boardering states). If it is simply lack of training that is keeping you from considering a firearm, you migh want to look into this.

[mattf7184]

I live in apt now, and am trained to use swords etc, but any long weapon would be hard to use in an apt. Why not get her a handgun and teach her?

Id be worried about any form of chemical spray in my apt at least when the AC is on and blowing around.

[joab]

A katana or staff is going to be extremely hard to use in the confines of an apartment no matter how good you are.
I'm gonna mention it anyway, get a shotgun. Point and shoot simplicity, with minimal training. Plus it gives a lot more distance between you and your attacker

[Penforhire]

Pay for her basic firearms safety class at a local range to introduce her to firearms.

[Sunray]

Buy her a large can of hair spray. There's no room in an apt to swing anything. A sword is ludicruous if an assailant is armed with a firearm. Firearms may be out too depending on how old the building is. Up here, there are concrete walls between the units, but that's there to stop fires from spreading. That may not be the case where you are.
If she's in a highrise she really has nothing to fear unless she's on the ground floor. Tell her to keep the door locked even when she's home. In any case, I can't recall ever hearing of a home invasion in an apartment.

[stealthmode]

what about one of those yellow stun guns that project the electrodes i dont know what they are called. be responsible and teach her to use a gun that said i would get a shotgun with some small shot or you can get some of those less lethal rubber slugs or shot if they are legal where you are

[bad LT]

All very good sugestions... but let me address some more of the pecularities of the situation:

1. Handguns are out of the question (for now) as neither she nor I can purchase them (we are both 20).

2. Impact weapons are probably out as well because they can be grabed by an attacker in the confines of an apartment. Also like it was mentioned before it is kind of hard to use a 5 foot stick in an apartment.

3. I am leaning towards a katana (for now) as she is already very familiar with its use and it won't be taken away from her. Kind of hard to wrestle a 3 foot razorblade from the hands of a trained martial artist. Also, does anybody have any experience with Cold Steel katanas?

4. She will be getting a shotgun and some training eventually (when she has the time). However, how do you minimize the risk of ovpenitration inside of an apartment? Even if you use small shot won't the density of the shotpattern at close range (less then 5 yards) go through thin walls. Also, isn't there also the possibility of someone grabbing the barrel of a shotgun as you move around corners / through walls?

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions

[joab]

In any case, I can't recall ever hearing of a home invasion in an apartment. Happens here alot. My son was the victim of an apartment invasion when he was 19. Fla has whole areas of nothing but cliff dwellers
However, how do you minimize the risk of ovpenitration inside of an apartment? 20ga with #6 or 7 shot don't use magnums or better yet buy a Winchester 1300 and use the mini Mexican rounds in #6Also, isn't there also the possibility of someone grabbing the barrel of a shotgun as you move around corners / through walls Not if she dosen't get macho and decide to clear the house herself. Defense is not seeking the intruder, unless there are dependants in the house, leave that to the cops. Renters insurance is cheap
Kind of hard to wrestle a 3 foot razorblade from the hands of a trained martial artist Bet I can do it , with the cheapest handgun I can find. BGs don't play fair, that's why we call them BGs

[stealthmode]

you know the old saying dont bring a knife to a gun fight, get a shotgun with the small shot

[mattf7184]

She shouldnt overestimate herself just because she is a martial artist. Dont know how big she is, but even with the best martial artists, size/strength still matters (coming from a 20year verteran of martial arts).

Using any long weapon is going to be hard in an apt. If you are set on non firearms kali/escrima type sticks could work or a short tanto, but if someone is gunna come in your house, assume they have the best weaponry. Dont bring a sword to a gun fight. (EDIT: LOL @ stealthmode, you wrote that also as I was typing it :) )

Dont know about your state, but in FL you only need to be 18 to buy a handgun from a private sale.

[mattf7184]

Also, as JOAB said, there are people who will go after people on higher floors of apt buildings. There was a bunch of burglaries/robberies in south florida by an ex Army soldier I believe that would climb up the side of buildings or repel down them to go thru a balcony and get in. The cops called him spiderman lol

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If yer convinced that a sword is the way to go, consider a shorter length blade than a full sized katana. Surely there's a one handed sword used in her fighting style. Something like machete or a kukri would work just as well as a full sword, 'specially in confined spaces. Even a large cooking knife wouldn't be such a bad choice.

A 3 foot length of rebar from the local hardware store would make for a mean weapon in the hands of a trained swordsman (swordswoman??). Probably also serve as a useful training tool.

Save the money from buying the sword and apply it to firearms training.

[L-2]

Suggestions or just some things to think about...

1. Get her what she wants , if anything. It's up to her to want it; practice with it; & get proficient with it.

2. Suggesting something is fine; but let it be her choice. Maybe she'd love formal training and several firearms. Maybe she'd rather have dinner, a movie, and a trip to Disney World.

3. Some people are too nice to tell someone they really don't intend to use a gift, especially when that someone is so important to them and has such good intentions. But if she doesn't or is unwilling to use it, it's a waste.

4. Then there's the condescension factor. It's a guy-girl thing. Guys protect the weaker, smaller girls. Just be sure that's what she wants you to do.
Some will say, "Oh, thank you so much!";
while others will think, "Doesn't he know I'm an adult now and can take care of myself? I could buy a sword, knife, pepper spray, gun, whatever if I want to on my own!"

5. Yet there's another old saying which goes something like:
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.
Teach a man how to fish and he'll eat forever....
[But what if he doesn't like fish or doesn't want to learn how to fish?]

Sorry...I digress & think too much. When in doubt, buy them all. If she doesn't want them, keep them for yourself. Check out Cold Steel products and swords...
http://www.coldsteel.com/

[fourdeuce82d]

All this choppy-choppy/slashing stuff (katana, kukri, machete) is fine...but what a bout a three-four foot section of oak dowel with a 12" butcher knife affixed to one end?

use it like a bayonet- don't need a lot of room or momentum- just keep jabbing at (into) the goblin's guts. Center mass- it's hard to move your hari in a hurry....

[bad LT]

I kind of think Thomson Gunner is right - give her what she wants. Maybe I am just looking for an excuse to get my girl a sword (aka jewlery that cuts).

[hso]

Large P-spray like Bear Assault and cordless phone works well.

Boken will leave a BG broken:rolleyes:

Waki, or Tusok, or any 1 hand short sword that fits her training.

5.56 or 5.45 "carbine" has become my choice over shottys for housework.

Like you said "Anything she wants".

[L-2]

from bad LT: I kind of think Thomson Gunner is right - give her what she wants
Sometimes I think I'm just invisible here:)...I think I was the person who said, "give her what she wants", & then again, I could be delusional...

[bad LT]

Oops, sorry L2 - I ment you

[The_Antibubba]

Your location is listed as Illinois, where the gun restriction laws are almost as oppressive as here in the PRK. If her apt is in Chicago, her weapon of choice may be even more restrictive-may be that Katana is illegal, too. "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" is certainly true, but "Better not to be tried at all" is better.

Find out what's illegal where she's at, and go from there.

[Kaylee]

eeg.....

first answer -- yes, ask her. :)

impact weapons are to my mind too easy to grab, and I personally dislike the risk of OC-based weapons indoors, so of your list of options, I'd pick a katana.. likely Paul Chen practical or Kris Cutlery from the budget models I've seen. Then sharpen the heck out if it (armor isn't a concern, keeping the blade from being grabbed is), and leave it naked by the bed. With some skill it's still possible to use in relatively confined spaces -- the idea is to keep it closer into the body, and use thrust-cuts instead of chopping strokes, or bring the "top hand" vertically down so that you can still effect a swing without scraping the roof. IF she has extensive martial arts experience WITH A WEAPON this might be a tolerable choice until she's 21, but it will never be a GOOD option.

Ever since ol' Sam Colt created the Great Equalizer, they're NOT a good solution to personal defense. Personal limitations of strength, training, experience, size and weight just come into play SO much more with bladed weapons than with firearms.

Her best bet is as already mentioned firearms training and a shotgun and/or pistol. If she's deadset on one of the weapons you mentioned, well... just make sure she's both skilled at using the weapon in a confined space and is prepared to literally fight to the death and sell her life dearly...

... cause she's not gonna like what happens next if she makes a bluff and it gets called.

-K

[PBIR]

I am leaning towards a katana (for now) as she is already very familiar with its use and it won't be taken away from her. Kind of hard to wrestle a 3 foot razorblade from the hands of a trained martial artist. Also, does anybody have any experience with Cold Steel katanas?


1) The Cold Steel Katana is beautiful, and I'm sure you (cough) your girlfriend would like it.

2) A katana is not a home defense weapon unless you have 12' ceilings. If the bad guy is packing heat you better have trained with Sho Kosugi for a good decade or so. Why not get her some throwing stars? (sorry, couldn't resist) I studied aikido with a kenjitsu cross-training and I would not want to wield a 3' + chunk of steel inside then confines of my apartment.

If you are absolutely ruling out firearms I'd say an aluminum softball bat, taser, or one of the larger high power pepper sprays would be the way to go. Just my $.02

[Glamdring]

Do a search here and on The Firing Line for "Safe Rooms"

A VERY good use of pepper spray is to flood area outside saferoom door if someone is trying to break in. You can get pepper spray that has a flexable hose so you can slip hose under door and cover with towel (seals crack and blocks door from opening).

What kind of martial arts are the two of you into???

With correct technique you can use even a 6 foot staff indoors, limits on what techniques you can use but still can work (think spear and some bayonet techniques). If your into MA you should know how to counter weapon grabs.

BTW you can disarm a person with sword, but it requires special equipment like good gloves/gauntlets, rope weapons, chain weapons, some types of wood weapons, sai, some types of non edged steel weapons (think iron clubs), shields, leather coat, blanket, whip, etc.

With guns as long as you keep muzzle pointed at danger zone you can always shoot person that is trying to grab gun.

A 20 gauge shotgun is a very good idea. If money is tight you can get a new NEI Single shot 20 gauge for ~$80.00, or a good used 38/357 revolver for around $200.00

[PBIR]

.

[PBIR]

Thrusting attacks would be the primary use of a katana in an low ceiling apartment. It is not designed to be a thrusting weapon. Disarming a swordsman does not require any special equipment if you know what you are doing. Likewise, A pole arm would be a poor choice because of its size.

[Kaylee]

Glamdring makes a good point when he asks what style she's been studying. Every other weekend at the local belt-factory storefront learning TaeKwonDo kicks to the forehead is an entirely different animal from regular and integrated defense training, practice cutting, weapons training, etc... yet both can be described as "[spending] several years in martial arts."

And while I'm sure PBIR is correct when he says it requires no special equipment to disarm someone using a blade, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most folks possessing those skills are not likely to be breaking into houses.

Really, it's the same argument as "he'll just take it away from her and use it against her" that we hear repeated over and over with firearms. And while some folks might be crazy enough to try it, when the price of failure isn't a few sliced fingers but rather a neatly severed jugular, I doubt many folks would be eager to risk it.

It's the ol' "Bathing a cat" gamble. Sure, I could maybe overpower the cat to get her into the tub.. but is it really worth all the pain and suffering of getting the living crap scratched out of me, when there's a nice declawed cat next door I can dunk instead? Now remember, that's predicated on your girlfriend having both the skill and more importantly the will to use a weapon. If she lacks either, it will be a liability rather than an asset no matter what weapon she chooses.

Anyhow, I'll continue to maintain that within arm's length, a sharp 3' swordblade in the hands of a competent user is to my mind at least as deadly a weapon as a firearm. And with the right technique, usable if not as efficient indoors, especially where ranges are much shorter. As such, if it was all I could get I'd not feel completely defenseless within my home armed with only a katana, but I'd still take a cheapest single-shot 12 guage from Mel's Pawn Shop over the nicest original folded steel blade you care to hand me.

-K

[Dr.Rob]

So she's willing to train in martial arts but not firearms?

Get the Cold Steel Spetznatz shovel. And a shotgun.

[JShirley]

I have spent at least a few hundred hours training with the 6' staff.

I would not suggest using one indoors.

Even a katana is on the long side. A wakizashi, OTOH, would be mo' better. The skill level required to take a sharp implement away from a motivated user is quite high.

But a firearm is much preferred.

John

[Gabe]

I have some formal training in the use of Katanas. I must say unless her martial arts training is Katana specific it will be of little use. I have no idea how to use nunchucks.

The katana would be a bad choice for apartment fighting. May I suggest a hatchet? I would personally go for a heavier axe, but it does require some strength to use. Nobody wants to stick around in an apartment with a pissed off axeman. Swordmasters included.

[PBIR]

Arming this woman with a katana to defend herself with inside her apartment is folly - they require substantial sword specific training beyond watching "The Last Samurai" over and over to handle properly. They are heavy and a failed attack offers several opportunities to disarm the wielder.

I'll maintain that an aluminum baseball bat (capable of smashing bone, lighter by far, much less chance of self-injury) or a stand-off device like a taser or pepper spray would be 100x's better.

[Ohen Cepel]

The weapon choice has been addressed.

I would also look at hardening the apt.
My now wife was amazed when I opened her apt door with a credit card in under 5 seconds.

There are many simple, cheap ways to keep people out. Much better to keep the scumbag out in the first place.

[PBIR]

Good point. Deadbolts on the entry doors would be a good start.

[bogie]

Let's assume a $250 budget.

I think that the Cold Steel toy costs more...

Spend $75 on the front door/windows (if on a lower floor), and $175 on a Walmart 20 gauge and a box of #6 or smaller birdshot.

I'll stand on one side of the room with one of those, and stick a Bruce Lee clone on the other, and I'll cut him in hlalf before he'll even get close.

[Glamdring]

John: Staff isn't my first choice for indoor impact weapon (a spear would probably tie for first choice though and they are not totally dissimilar to a staff).

For many years only gun I had was a single shot 22 rimfire, but I had a bokken and a staff. I practiced with the staff in the apartments I lived in. Unless the person your facing has some idea how to deal with thrusting attacks from Spear/staff and something to use to block it is VERY hard to defend lower body against thrusting attacks or short blows (cuts? I don't know a good word to describe the technique I think it is like cutting with an axe not a push cut or draw cut). Remember with a staff you can use many different hand positions on the weapon, gives you tremendous leverage and standoff range for a melee weapon.

A simple feint to the head followed by a diagonal "cut" aimed at the knee (use weight transfe like a lunge but you don't have to lunge to get effect of adding body wt in motion to the blow it is like timing a punch with weight shift) has a fair chance of success IMHO of dropping goblin to ground. The effect would be like hitting a knee with a baseball bat but you can put a lot more force into the blow with a staff because it is a much longer lever.

Also your fairly safe from disarm attempts when using low level attacks (assuming your not facing another staff or such with empty hands or knifes.

Picking your groound to fight in is important, you want a spot like a doorway or hallway so they can't flank you. Indoors dealing with attacks from the side with a staff a difficult at best.

***

I would suggest (re)reading The Book of Five Rings. Also remember for many many moons spear formations were a major military formation. Only two good counters to massed spears that I know of are Missle Weapons or sword & shield.

Spears (or pikes or staffs) when used in formation fighting are similar to using indoors. You can't use a lot of the techniques that you would use outdoors if fighting solo with spear/staff. But if flanks are secure there is no good way to attack a spear/staff outside of the two mentioned above IMO.

BTW I spent some time in college trying to figure out good weapons mix for room clearing with non gun weapons. My conclusions were for a small team a couple of people with short swords and shields, some with short spears (no shield two handed weapon), and a couple of crossbows.

[JShirley]

Guy,

The spear is now my favorite manual weapon. The staff is fairly high on my list, though, because I have still practiced more with it than any other weapon, including firearms of all types.

One of my senseis- who is extremely accomplished with the staff- often pointed out that the staff is a weak weapon when compared to other weapons. Anything more than the most gentle touch with a blade will injure, whereas it takes a serious blow with a staff to impart actual injury.

Sure, I'm confident with MY ability to use a staff against most opponents, especially in an area where I have a great deal of mobility, in some strange world without Smith and Wessons, 1911s or Glocks, but it would be negligent of me to advise anyone else to use one. If a martial artist is accomplished enough to be able to use one successfully, they will certainly know it. Regardless, an apartment is NOT the place to use one, and I will be happy to demonstrate exactly why the next time I see you.

John

[Glamdring]

John: As long as evil spirits don't invade my cranium :D Or break other bones! Have you bought or made some spears?

I did say staff wasn't my first choice, currently my 629 (loaded with 44 specials) and my 12 gauge are first choices. I was just trying to say it was far from worthless. It rates ahead of basball bats and beer bottles at least for me :)

Although, Beer Bottles do have a lot to recommend them for weapons. First there is the beer ;) Plus they spin well so you can throw them like a tomahawk for a short range missle weapons, after you have consumed the beer by choice.

They make a fine impact weapon empty or full. With a little modification they will even provide an edge (pun intended).

And if you can find some strong Spirits, they even make a fair anti armour weapon, even though they are not truly a cocktail.

[JShirley]

Guy:

Yes and yes. :) Besides the Cold Steel spear, and practice with 8 and 9' purple heart training spears, I had a custom 7' training spear made, whose toughness I proceeded to demonstrate, in front of witnesses, by smacking into a pole and breaking it. :rolleyes:

DOH!

Typically, I'd agree with you vs. bats, but in the smaller confines of most apartments, I cannot. A nice light, fast bat could be quite handy in determined- or very frightened- hands.

John

[saltydog452]

Bad Lt,

If the lady was my daughter or daughter-in-law and for whatever reason chose to respond to violence with non-letal means, I would opt for planning, preperation, and preparedness.

Give me a minute or two here and I'll try to explain.

You don't have to have been a rape victim to attend rape prevention seminars. Most are even funded by the public dollar. The NRA has an excellent program titled ' Refuse to be a Victim'. Ex liberal Paxton Quigley has written books on female vulnarability and how 'not' to be as vulnerable.

Try to get her to enroll in a Concealed Handgun Course. She's gonna have to do that anyway if she ever decides to carry. There are things that are taught in that course (at least herre in Texas) that are valuable whether you are armed or not. Subjects such as Sititational Awarness, Non-Violent Resolution of Conflict, etc.

She should get to know her neighbors, at least the ones on the other side of the wall. Ask her to ask them to call security if they (the new neighbors) hears any suspicious or urgent sounds that do not have anything to do with consensual bedroom gymnastics.

There are lots of things that you could do. The problem is trying to get her/you to follow some prudent suggestions without feeling like a paranoid wimpy rodent.

She/you ain't gonna do all of this in one week Jusk ease her into it a bit at a time. In the mean while, get her a cell phone (preferably one with built in speaker capabaility. Thats the only true 'hands free' phone that I know of.) and an American Automobile Assn membership. A yound lady broke down on the side of the highway is vulnerable to anyone who appears helpful. Stay in the car, call AAA (they oughta be on 'speed-dial', can't see those fine print phone mumbers on the back of her membership card using the dome light to see by) and prominitly conspicious with a cell phone in hand.

You don't have to be armed to negotiate the streets with a greater degree of safety. But, its the next step

All of this is food for thought. Some of these suggestions might be worth while for you and your lady, some not. See what else is out there. Use a search engine. There are lots of intersting thoughts out there. I think you would be well served by keying in the NRA and Paxton Quigley.

salty..

[JeremyIA]

Sunray--Never heard of an apartment invasion? Move to San Antonio, TX sometime. An old girlfriend of mine lives in Texas now. She has no money (starving student who is student-teaching for nothing as a course requirement).

Several apartments RIGHT IN HER NEIGHBORHOOD have been invaded. There have been two rapes and one attempted rape that was interrupted when the victim's male friend showed up. He got away though. My friend moved to an apartment complex with a pretty nice security system in place but she knows NOTHING about guns and she has no money to pay for one or for the training. None of her friends or family members know anything about guns either. I would make a trip to San Antonio to buy one for her and to teach her how to use it if I could just get the opportunity to take vacation to do so.

I encouraged her to go ahead and buy a single-shot .410. It's better than nothing and will do damage at apartment-ranges. One shot is better than none and the apartment invaders in her neighborhood flee when someone like a man arrives on the scene. I figured a shotgun blast would probably have the same effect.