What to do AFTER?


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mhdishere
July 24, 2004, 09:34 AM
This thought came to me this morning and I thought I'd ask the folks on THR what they thought.

Hypothetical situation: You're involved in an entirely justified, legal shooting. You're standing there with your gun in your hand, the goblin is on the floor bleeding. You dial 911 to come pick up the goblin, then what do you do? Are you expected to apply first aid to the guy you just shot? Would it look bad for you if you didn't make a reasonable attempt to save his life? Bear in mind that you'd have to put your gun aside in order to do so, and you'd be in arms reach of him if he decides to renew hostilities.

I honestly don't know what the legalities are in this case. I'm even less sure what the "right" thing to do would be.

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boofus
July 24, 2004, 09:53 AM
One hand on the phone with the 911 operator until they arrive and the other on your gun. Just watch the badguy and make sure he doesn't wander off.

In any sensible state you wouldn't be prosecuted for calling 911 and waiting. The perp could have AIDS or any number of diseases and you probably aren't equipped to protect yourself from that. Of course leftwing cesspools like CA or NY might throw you in the slammer just for the hell of it. Then help the badguy sue you for damages and sue the gun company.

Lord Bodak
July 24, 2004, 10:18 AM
Holster your gun and make sure the goblin doesn't get up.

Might also be a wise idea to call the lawyer you have on retainer for this situation. You do have one, right? (I admit I don't, yet... but yet is the operative word)

geekWithA.45
July 24, 2004, 10:21 AM
The advice that I've heard on managing the aftermath is:

-Call 911 and simply state that there has been a shooting, name, and address.

-DO NOT approach the perpetrator. Presume (s)he's still dangerous. Keep an eye on them from a position of advantage.

-Top off and HOLSTER/reconceal your sidearm. The place will be crawling with twitchy policemen very soon. They won't be able to distinguish gg from bg.

-EVACUATE your family and anyone not directly involved with the shooting. They don't need to see the aftermath, or you cuffed and arrested, which is always a possible outcome.

-When the police arrive, simply state that a) you are the person who called 911. b) you feared for your life c) you wish to cooperate, but do not wish to make statements right away.

41mag
July 24, 2004, 10:26 AM
Never having been in that situation I would say that the safest thing to do would be to just stand back & let them bleed.UNLESS...

you are in control of the massive amounts of adrenaline in your system

if you can see that they are incapacited beyond being a threat to you

if,god forbid,you made a supreme oops! & shot a good guy

you are not only qualified(nurse,Dr.,emt,police),but you are sure of both 1 & 2 above.

Methinks that anything you do will be scrutinized under a microscope after the fact.If you try to give un-qualified assistance then you are,while potentially morally right,opening yourself up to more possible lawsuits from attacker friends/hangers on.[if you felt justified in trying to kill x then why did you try to save x?]

A messy situation to be sure.

J Miller
July 24, 2004, 11:37 AM
What to do AFTER?

If I don't get the job done and the bg takes me out, he's going to use my cell phone to call the paramedics for me, right..............not likely.


Now what I am about to say will be no doubt get me in a lot of trouble with all the law abiding people on this forum, but this is the way I feel.

IF I am put in a situation where I have to shoot someone in self defense, and that someone ends up deceased, and there is no witnesses, I'm gone. I'll leave the miscreant lay where he falls. Just like he would have done me.

IF it happens IN my home, that's a different story. IF there are witnesses, or IF my family is with me, again a different story.

That's just the way I feel about it. If I do have to make a 911 call, I agree with what geekWithA.45 said. Especially about the clamming up bit.

Joe

thorazine
July 24, 2004, 01:49 PM
Guess that means you'd have to police your brass (assuming you used a autoloader) and cover up any other potential evidence you might have left at the sceene? Now... was that three shots or four? Can't find my brass it's too dark argh!!!

Trebor
July 24, 2004, 01:55 PM
Geek With a .45 got it right.

mete
July 24, 2004, 02:04 PM
Take the time effort and money to take a very good defensive shooting course that that will teach you these things.....The direct answer is to make sure there are no other BGs there, reload, call 911, make sure you do not have a gun in your hand when cops arrive, give briefest description of the event to the police, get lawyer.

Sistema1927
July 24, 2004, 02:13 PM
J Miller said:

IF I am put in a situation where I have to shoot someone in self defense, and that someone ends up deceased, and there is no witnesses, I'm gone. I'll leave the miscreant lay where he falls. Just like he would have done me.

Number one, what if anything is the difference between the BG and you if you act as stated above?

Number two, when you do get caught (forensic evidence, the unseen witness, etc.) you are most probably facing first degree murder charges rather than being no-billed due to the fact that it was a good shoot.

In case you ever have to shoot someone in self-defense, here is what you should do: Don't interfere with any evidence, call 911 immediately, and comply with all instructions from the officers who arrive. Only tell them that you were in fear of your life, you are too upset to answer any of their questions, and have them obtain medical attention for you due to the fact that you are in shock. Don't tell them anything else. Your next phone call should be to your attorney, and your next actions should be directed by him or her.

cratz2
July 24, 2004, 02:18 PM
I think Geek got it very close to correct but I don't think I would personally 'top off'... If I was completely empty, I would certainly reload, but I don't think I would deliberately add a couple rounds or replace my partial mag with a full one.

Good question though. Never really thought about it though I suspect that helping the guy would be the last thing on my mind unless maybe it was a kid, say, under 14 years old. if he had just broken into my house and hadn't inflicted any harm to anyone yet, I'm not quite sure I could watch a 12 year old die on my floor.

Not to sound all bleeding-heart and all... :p

MP5
July 24, 2004, 02:20 PM
Any LEO's or attorneys here who can give added concrete advice on this issue?

geekWithA.45
July 24, 2004, 02:39 PM
RE: topping off:

I've never heard of a single well respected gunschool or instructor who approves of holstering an empty or partially empty sidearm when ammo is readily available.

You might think the fight is over, but the BG's might not agree.

4v50 Gary
July 24, 2004, 02:42 PM
Have two attorney's cards with you. The second call you make will be to a criminal defense attorney just to advise you to keep your statements within the law. The civil liability attorney is in case Mr. Gutshot or his family decides to seek an action in tort.

Do holster up. Be sure to give your physical description to the police so they know you're the armed good guy. You will be disarmed.

If the badguy is conscious, have someone give him something to stem the bleeding and have him attempt to stop the bleeding. Even a folded newspaper is better than nothing. However, be sure that if you have him move his hands, there are no weapons on him (ask him and do a visual search) which he could exact revenge or harm another. By doing something for him, it shows your "compassion" for your fellow man (in case the civil suit or criminal charges arises).

sendec
July 24, 2004, 03:17 PM
Get to cover, where you should have been all along.

Look around - break tunnel vision, odds are there are more bad guys and girls.

Check yourself for injury - You may be adrenalized to the point of not realizing your hurt

Doc
July 24, 2004, 09:23 PM
"i was in fear for my life."

"he had a weapon."

"i will press charges."

"i want to speak to my lawyer."

J Miller
July 25, 2004, 01:36 PM
I said:
Now what I am about to say will be no doubt get me in a lot of trouble with all the law abiding people on this forum, but this is the way I feel.

Everyone is taking this absolutly serious as it should be, but there is only a vague consensus of the steps to take after the fact, except that you will most likely be arrested, (that isn't always the case, but does happen),
you should holster your gun so your hands are empty when the cops get there, and you should call your lawyer.

I posted what I said to elisit (sp) a certain responce. I even told you ahead of time what that responce would be.
I was right, but since I manipulated you I really do apologize.

Now I have a question or two.
Just how many of you guys actually have enough money to keep a retained lawyer? Lawyers are incredibly expensive, not everybody can even afford an hours consultation.

Many people on several forums have commented that a person who carries a self defence weapon needs to have two or three of the same gun. How in the world do those guys think the average person who lives paycheck to paycheck can afford that?

I'm seeing a very eletist trend on many of the forums. A lot of people who post this stuff must be totally disconnected from the real world.

I don't know anybody who can buy duplicates or triplicats of a cary gun.
Nor do I know anybody who can keep a lawyer on retainer. Or anybody who even knows one well enough to have his card.

All of the above is why I said what I said. Real world guys. BG attacks, poor dumb working slob defends himself and never stops loosing. Or he takes a chance, defends himself and leaves the corpse lay. Maybe he gets caught, maybe not.

Now you guys know why I don't usually respond to these threads.

Joe

SMLE
July 25, 2004, 02:13 PM
Just how many of you guys actually have enough money to keep a retained lawyer? Lawyers are incredibly expensive, not everybody can even afford an hours consultation. Join Pre-paid Legal. You can get the family plan for about $20.00 per month.

nemesis
July 25, 2004, 03:36 PM
You're involved in an entirely justified, legal shooting. You're standing there with your gun in your hand, the goblin is on the floor bleeding.
You dial 911 to come pick up the goblin, then what do you do?

Advise 911 that an intruder has been shot.

They will ask "is he dead".

Tell them to hold

BAM! BAM!

Advise them "yes".




I thought I should edit this to stress that I have offered this in a humerous vein. I am sure there are some few who will regard me as insensitive or poorly motivated. You may be quite correct.

Lord Bodak
July 25, 2004, 04:04 PM
I guess this will be considered an elitist statement, but if you don't know a lawyer well enough to have their card in your pocket, you should not be carrying.

RatFink
July 25, 2004, 04:13 PM
I guess this will be considered an elitist statement , but if you don't know a lawyer well enough to have their card in your pocket, you should not be carrying.

Yes, it is.

Lord Bodak
July 25, 2004, 04:20 PM
Now, explain why. I am not saying you should have one on retainer (although I would say it is wise, most of us... myself included... cannot afford that). How is it wise to carry a firearm, knowing that if you have to fire in self defense you will almost certainly need a lawyer, without knowing someone who understands the firearm and self defense laws in your state to the point of being able to defend you in court?

GUNSMOKE45441
July 25, 2004, 06:51 PM
So I'm thinking that before you get in this mess, you should do some research.
Find out which lawyers in your area have been involved in firearm related cases, what their record ( win- loss) is they'll be glad to tell you if they win.

Get a card, they're free. Smoke the B G only if you have to, call 911, call lawyer, clam up until you speak to your lawyer!!!

Lord Bodak
July 25, 2004, 06:59 PM
Exactly Gunsmoke. It's doesn't cost anything to look into it. Everyone here put a lot of thought into what gun they are carrying-- probably bought at least a few gun mags, spent time online, and in gun shops, talking to people, getting opinions. But somehow, suggesting that people do the same for a lawyer is somehow a bad thing?

sendec
July 25, 2004, 07:28 PM
I don't think that the idea of having a lawyer on retainer, or at least on deck, is elitist at all. I recommend to all of my LEO trainees that they should, and that it should probably be the one they least like to see opposing them in court: ie an excellent defense attorrney.

For a civilian, that being a non LEO citizen for the semantically sensitive:rolleyes: a retainership may not be needed, but I would certainly find out ahead of time who in the area plays defense well - it may or may not be the guy or girl who handled a house closing or drafted your parent's will.

Few people anymore make it through life without needing an attorney. They are kinda like guns - it is better to have one and not need it than vice versa. And it need not be expensive - I spent between one ($1.00) and fifty dollaars a year tops for mine.

TallPine
July 25, 2004, 09:36 PM
I have thought about - if this situation should ever occur - telling the dispatcher that someone broke into my house and that somehow they seem to have fallen down and hurt themselves ....

:D

entropy
July 26, 2004, 02:40 AM
civilian: n. A person not in military or naval service. Look it up. Webster's New World Dictionary. No mention at all of LEO's. LEO's are civilians. (Of course, one could be both, and many are, NG or Reserves. But they are still civilians when they are not on military duty.) The use of 'civilian' by LEO's connotes a paramilitary 'us vs. them' line of thought...the lines have been blurred too much already....http://img64.photobucket.com/albums/v196/mosinfan/hidebehindcouch.gif

Diggler
July 26, 2004, 06:44 AM
Now you guys know why I don't usually respond to these threads.So you reply to the thread with the intention of instigating angst among the members by suggesting a course of action that is the epitome of bad judgement and illegality, then complain when you get what you came for??

:rolleyes:

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