Suppressor for home defense?


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Min
February 16, 2003, 09:22 PM
I'm thinking about gettting a suppressor for my 9mm handgun for home defense. Since in such a situation one will not be taking the time to don hearing protection and shooting glasses, I think a supressor will a) really suprise the hell out of an intruder and b) will not distract you with excessive noise and flash.

What do you all think? Sounds sensible to me.

And on another note, what is the better caliber for suppression - .45 ACP or 9mm?

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Arkady
February 16, 2003, 09:48 PM
I think you'll run into a lot of legal trouble if you use an NFA item for self defense. That said, it beats the alternative.

Both rounds can be suppressed fairly effectively, and a 147 grain 9mm Ranger should be pretty tolerable indoors.

MitchSchaft
February 16, 2003, 09:51 PM
I think the loud bang and flash will be a hell of a surprise for an intruder. And the flash/bang probably would not bother you considering the situation.
But, I would love a supressed HK mp5-k for HD.

Finch
February 16, 2003, 09:56 PM
I thought suppressors were totally banned. Are there legal was of obtaining ones. Is it a federal or state deal? Where can you get them?

Elmer Snerd
February 16, 2003, 09:57 PM
I think that as long as it was legal, you would be OK. Just say that you got it to protect the perp's hearing.

Yohan
February 16, 2003, 10:00 PM
Class III license, I believe.

You could defend your home in style :cool:

Min
February 16, 2003, 10:04 PM
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1600067.jpg http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1600068.jpg

Hkmp5sd
February 16, 2003, 10:22 PM
Finch,

Suppressors, Machineguns, Short-barreled Shotguns and other restricted weapons are legal for civilians to own. They are not banned, just taxed. It is covered under both federal and state laws. If allowed by your state, you pay a one-time transfer tax of $200 (or $5 for an AOW).

Here (http://www.titleii.com/Bardwell/nfa_faq.txt) is a "Frequently Asked Question" file on how everything works.

Selfdfenz
February 16, 2003, 11:31 PM
This thread got me thinking.

Consider:
A 9mm or 45 "round" that's the size of a 12 ga shotgun shell BUT the round incorportes the sound deadening component(s). Possibly it would be the same length as a 12 ga shell but possibly longer.
The shotgun is not modified in anyway, shape or form.
The round is not reloadable, refillable once fired. And no I don't know how that could be done. Maybe make it out of cardboard????
Wonder if that would be legal as the BATF may not have a law regarding silenced ammo.
If you could buy them in packs of 6 or 12 it would make a double barrel handy and quiet.

Just an idea.

Take care.
S-

Diesle
February 16, 2003, 11:34 PM
MN law explicetly restricts the use of suppressors.

Silencers
(Felony)
It is a felony to sell or possess any device designed to muffle
or silence the discharge of a firearm. The maximum penalty
for this offense is two years imprisonment and/or a $5,000
fine; however, if the offense is committed in or near a
school, park, or public housing property, the maximum
penalty is five years imprisonment and/or a $10,000 fine.
Minn. Stat. ยง 609.66, subd. 1a


Diesle

Min
February 16, 2003, 11:52 PM
Not Texas. :neener:

Hkmp5sd
February 17, 2003, 12:11 AM
the round incorportes the sound deadening component(s).

The sound comes from the hot gasses leaving the muzzle following the bullet's exit. What suppressors do is to slow down that gas and then vent it to atmosphere. A suppressed "round" wouldn't work because it would be either part of the casing which is left in the chamber or part of the projectile which is ejected from the muzzle.

12.7x99mm
February 17, 2003, 09:26 AM
12 gauge or my little fire breather. The flash will kill them

Don Gwinn
February 17, 2003, 09:34 AM
Finch, it depends on your state. The Federal law only requires you to get a "tax stamp" for it. You'll have to give fingerprints, pay a $200 tax (on about $50 worth of metal and machine work) and wait a long time, but it can be done. You also need the permission of your local chief law enforcement officer. Maybe you might as well ask him about the law now. You might be the first person to ask him, but then again, you might not. You may have to work on him to get him to sign off anyway.
The problem is your state law. I don't know Nevada's law, but you can probably check it at http://www.packing.org
Illinois law explicitly bans "machine guns," silencers/suppressors, SBR's, etc. A lot of states don't, though.

When the GCA'34 was passed, it was intended as a practical ban. Back then, the $200 tax was considerably more than a brand-new Thompson, which I've seen in ads of the time for $150. Other machine guns were much cheaper, especially war trophies.
Nowadays, since the passage of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, it's illegal to manufacture full-auto for civilians, so the supply of machine guns has been static for the last 17 years. Prices have shot through the roof, and anyone who can afford a full-auto at today's prices should easily be able to afford a $200 tax. Suppressors are different; they cost a lot less to make and most people don't want to pay that tax to own one. Imagine paying a $200 tax on every full tank of gasoline and you'll have an idea of the proportion.

TheLastBoyScout
February 17, 2003, 01:50 PM
I think .45 is better for suppression because to make a 9mm go subsonic, you need to lose a lot of speed, which drops your impact energy. On the other hand, most if not all standard 45 ACP ammo is already subsonic. (If you use supersonic ammo with a suppressor, the bullet itself will make a sonic boom as it flies)

Selfdfenz
February 17, 2003, 09:22 PM
"it would be either part of the casing which is left in the chamber "

Exactly what I had in mind. The weapon is not silenced but rather the round itself incoporates the functionality that suppresses or reduces the sound. I'll admit it's a bit out of the box. The level of durability needed for fixed model silencers would not be necessary for this unit as it is a one shot deal. Every time you reload, you get a new set of components.
That's why you would need a chamber a big as a 12 ga to handle the size issues that would be incumbent with a silenced 9mm or 45 round configured in this manner.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it would work. Also, the more I think about it the more it seems like it would have to be illegal because it would work.

S-

Gewehr98
February 17, 2003, 09:36 PM
To see how the suppressed gun, and it's eventual use, would be played out, either in the criminal trial, or in the later civil rights trial. :confused:

OF
February 17, 2003, 09:43 PM
I heard somewhere that the original suppressor bans were an attempt to stymie poachers, who were using suppressors to take dear without the warden hearing the shot.

How many people have damaged hearing due to this silly law?

- Gabe

MitchSchaft
February 17, 2003, 10:10 PM
The weapon is not silenced but rather the round itself incoporates the functionality that suppresses or reduces the sound.

That's not possible.

444
February 17, 2003, 10:36 PM
Finch: Buying a suppressor in Nevada is no problem at all. Any Class III dealer can hook you up. I just ordered two from Machine Gun Kelly's on Sunset Road. American Shooters Supply can order one for you. I believe that The Gunstore on East Trop is a Class III dealer.
According to Kelly, Sheriff Young (newly elected) has said that he will sign for NfA purchases.
For me, in Nye County, I am not sure about our newly elected sheiff. The previous sheriff was perfectly willing to sign. The new sheriff ran on a heavily pro-gun platform, but who knows what will happen now that he is in offce.
Go to one of the dealers mentioned above. Talk to them, they can tell you not only what you need to do, but if the current sheriff will sign.

"Suppressors are different; they cost a lot less to make and most people don't want to pay that tax to own one. Imagine paying a $200 tax on every full tank of gasoline and you'll have an idea of the proportion."
One other difference that you left out is the fact that the manufacture of new suppressors has not been banned. If is perfectly legal to manufature, sell, and buy brand new suppressors. I also don't agree with the analogy with the gasoline. A suppressor once paid for will last a lifetime, everytime you reload the gun you don't have to pay a transfer tax. Although when you buy a new car, the "transfer tax", sales tax, is substatially more than $200. I paid thousands in taxes on every new car I ever bought. The cost of the materials used to manufacture a suppressor really has very little to do with the final price. How much do you think the materials cost that were used to paint the Mona Lisa ? Suppressors are not expensive. You can buy suppressors for less than $300, so with the tax, you have $500 in it. Sure, this is not for anyone, but it is certainly affordable for most anyone on this board that wants one (considering the cost is less than most new guns and most computers).

One small point, A Class III license is what the dealer has. As the owner of a NFA weapon, you don't have or need any license. Owning one requires a tax stamp.

Jake 98c/11b
February 18, 2003, 11:05 AM
MitchSchaft, silent ammunition is possible and has been in use for at least 35 years. Captive piston ammunition is the most common, it uses a piston driven by the burning powder to launch the projectile. The piston is retained in the case by a shoulder at the case mouth, this seals in all propellent gasses and eliminates most noise. The former soviet union was big on the development of these things and they even have a selfloading pistol that functions with them. Another similar system we used in the early 70s was a shotshell made of soft steel, it had a shotcup formed by folding the case in on itself. This shotcup was forced out when the powder charge went and contained all gasses inside. I think the same system was used with some 40mm grenades. The Belgain FLY-K mortar is another version of the captive piston ammunition but in this case the piston is in the round and pushes against a fixed spigot for launching.

Unfortunately, all of these are concidered to be silencers by the BATF, each individual round of ammunition can only be transfered with a $200 tax.

bogie
February 18, 2003, 11:42 AM
Suppressors may be legal to own, and may last a lifetime, but they're not legal to maintain. If you need to do ANY work on one, send it back to the manufacturer. Otherwise, bureaucrats get it in their head that you're manufacturing something yourself.

444
February 18, 2003, 01:48 PM
Suppressors are not silent as most of us all know. There is still sound, it just isn't as loud as the same shot fired without the suppressor. The bigger the gun, the bigger the sound. A suppressed .22 is close to silent, a centerfire rifle is a lot louder. For a suppressed weapon to be effectively suppressed, the bullet has to be sub-sonic otherwise the inital sound of the shot is suppressed, but the bullet will cause a sonic boom enroute to the target.
It is very easy for the handloader to put together very quiet centerfire rifle ammo that is pretty close to the same level as a supressed rifle in the same caliber. You simply use a fast burning pistol powder and keep dropping your powder charge until you are happy or until you stick a bullet in the bore. If you go until you stick a bullet in the bore, you have found the lightest possible load, you add a grain or two of powder to that load and you are good to go. If you chrono one of these loads you are definitely sub-sonic, but don't let the low velocity fool you, you are still shooting a pretty heavy bullet. I have a bare minimum load like this for my .444 Marlin using a 300 grain bullet, and I have a similar load for my .30-06 using a cast 180 grain bullet. Either one will easily kill (man or beast) out to 50 yards or more and the report is less than that from a .22 rifle, actually substantially less than a .22 rifle. Why go through all the hassle, let alone trying to invent some kind of new gimmick ?

Bogie is right, I didn't mean to imply that you as an individual could legally manufacture a new suppressor, but a Class III manufacturer can still manufacture a new suppressor, but as many of you know, it is no longer legal to manufacture a machine gun.

Apple a Day
February 18, 2003, 05:51 PM
Jake is on about the Russians using silenced ammo.
The Russians have a pistol, 7.62mm(7.62x42mm0, which, according to Jane'sInfantry Weapons (19th edition)
" There is no conventional Maxim-type silencer in the weapon. Instead, the special cartridge contains a piston between the propelling charge and the bullet. On firing, the propeling charge explodes, driving the piston forward; this impels the bullet forward. The piston is then arrested by a shoulder in the pistol chamber. Thus the noise and smoke of the exolosion is retained inside the cartridge case, and the olny noise is that of the air trapped between the pistol and the bullet as it escapes from the muzzle. The bullet has an effective range of 50m and can penetrate 2mm of mild steel at 25m range."
It's blowback, double action with a 6-round mag. Mass of 600 grams and length of 165mm (just 5mm longer than a Makarov). I have a picture but no scanner. :(

cratz2
February 18, 2003, 06:06 PM
Anyone have any idea roughly how loud a supressed subsonic 147 Gr 9mm round would be?

Or could anyone point me in a direction of a webpage with information on supressors?

blades67
February 18, 2003, 06:19 PM
Anyone have any idea roughly how loud a supressed subsonic 147 Gr 9mm round would be?

Yes, but I couldn't tell you exactly how many decibels it is, maybe about 25 to 30.

Hkmp5sd
February 18, 2003, 06:42 PM
cratz,

Go here (http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/highpow.html) .

M67
February 19, 2003, 03:34 PM
Consider:
A 9mm or 45 "round" that's the size of a 12 ga shotgun shell BUT the round incorportes the sound deadening component(s). Possibly it would be the same length as a 12 ga shell but possibly longer.
The shotgun is not modified in anyway, shape or form. Has anyone tried one of those barrel insert thingamajiggs that lets you shoot a pistol cartridge that chambers in a "shotshell"? I would guess the shotgun barrel would act as a "suppressor" even whithout any sinister "components". It won't be silent but the open, unmodified shotgun barrel ought to provide a long, nice expansion chamber so that the powder gases cool down and the pressure drops before the gas reaches the muzzle. More or less the same thing that happens when you use a small charge of fast powder in a long barrel, as described above by 444.

OF
February 20, 2003, 12:30 PM
30 dB is waaaaay quiet. Think whisper or a light breeze through a tree.

- Gabe

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