[seldomseen]

The Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper today made good on their threat to publish the names of CCW holders in this morning's paper. They listed the names and ages of all the CCW holders in a number of counties in Northeast Ohio. According to the paper, they will publish the rest of the list for the remaining counties in NE Ohio, tomorrow. They also listed a website, cleveland.com/indepth/concealed where anyone can go to get a copy of the list. They also vowed to publish the list again at a later undetermined date. Just another reason why the concealed carry law in Ohio, in it's present state, isn't worth bothering with.

[Beren]

Those damn, dirty apes. I sincerely hope that if anyone listed by the paper finds their home robbed, that they sue the paper painting a bullseye on them.

Sounds like it's time for us to find out the names and home addresses of /all/ employees and management of said newspaper, and to publish the information online. Along with links to satellite photos of their home, if available. If that's how they want to play, I say, let's play.

[liliysdad]

While its not real nice..whats wrong with publishing public info?

[EricOKC]

lillysdad,

That information is being published in direct violation of Ohio law.

Would you have a problem with newspapers publishing other public information like, oh i dont know, the names, home addresses and phone numbers, SSN, and vehicle descriptions of all the local police officers? Maybe they should publish whether or not they are married, how many times, their wive's names, kids names, etc.

After all - this IS public information.

Is it a little clearer now?

[Coronach]

It IS public information.

AFAIK it does NOT violate the law (but I could be wrong).

It is still a dumb-arsed politically motivated thing to do.

It is intimidation, pure and simple. "If you get a CCW, we'll tell everyone who you are." Really high-class of the Plain Dealer, huh?

OK, fine. Anyone have an employment list of the plain dealer's staff? Anyone have a website in which we can print all of the publicly available info on them? Income, address, working hours, blueprints of the house, photos, etc? Hey, its legal. Its public information.

I bet if that happened, the Plain Dealer would be screaming bloody murder about how there is a difference between what is legal and what is right.

Mike :rolleyes:

[Jackthelad]

Wow, I thought the newspaper folks would have realized by now not to do this. Yes, I am in this list- and not too happy about it. I have an uncommon last name, and am listed in the phone book. Not too hard to figure out where I live.
this is from the OFCC web site=


On January 15, 2004 Cleveland Plain Dealer Editor Doug Clifton stated the following in his very first weblog:

"The "how to reach us" box on 2A lists e-mail addresses and phone numbers for senior editors and similar information appears at the bottom of every staff produced story. Those devices make the communication more personal and more immediate. Some times it's so personal and so immediate you can feel its heat. In the last week or so most of the heat was generated by gun rights advocates who took exception to our announced intent to publish the names of those licensed to carry a concealed weapon."
Despite the "heat" generated, the Plain Dealer has followed through on its promise to violate the privacy of thousands of people who have broken no laws, violated no other persons' rights, and who simply wish to exercize their constitutional right to self-defense.

Ohioans For Concealed Carry has learned that the editors of the Cleveland Plain Dealer have begun publishing a names of concealed handgun license-holders in Ciuyahoga Co. and five surrounding counties. Three counties, Ashtabula, Cuyahoga & Erie, were published today, and three more will be published tomorrow.

Four other newspapers have already published such lists - one of which is now under investigation for having published information protected by the law, a felony. The Plain Dealer is the first to publish the lists online.

The Plain Dealer was one of the first to publish its intention to abuse the media access priviledge, granted after Gov. Taft insisted that reporters could act as a check and a balance to insure that licenses were being issued appropriately.


January 9: "Since Taft chooses to hide behind journalists on this vital public-records matter, it is this newspaper's intention to obtain this information and publish it. Our readers deserve to know the identities of those who obtain permits to carry their guns in public. We hope other news organizations will do the same in their communities."

January 12: "This little showdown came about because one of the new law's provisions prohibits the general public that would be you from finding out who is purchasing a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Only journalists are allowed that information. So, that is exactly what we intend to do. We will find out who bought the permits to carry concealed weapons and then let you know, too."
The editor of the Cleveland believes in open records. Thus he should certainly have no problem with OFCC publishing his home address and telephone number:

Douglas Clifton
19 Shoreby Dr.
Cleveland, OH 44108-1161
Tel.: (216) 761-6577

For a map to his half-million dollar home, click here.

Clifton paid $550,000 for the house in 1999. He and his wife Peg reside there. They have two adult children and two grandchildren.

Rep. James Aslanides (R-Coshocton), the bill's sponsor, said in conference committee and during a short floor speech that he would lead an effort to roll back the media access if the "privilege" is abused.

"If they abuse the privilege, we can cause them to lose the privilege," he declared, pointing out that the Pennsylvania Legislature struck a similar provision after a newspaper published a list of permit holders.

Sen. Steve Austria seconded this warning, adding that publishing the names of license-holders would be the exact kind of abuse they're referrring to, since publishing these names would threaten the safety of the very men and women who have chosen to bear arms for self-defense.

"I don't think we need to worry about journalists doing their job," state Sen. Marc Dann, a Youngstown area Democrat, told Mr. Aslanides.

Rep. Aslanides has already expressed interest in modifying the law to correct this abuse. Sens. Austria and Dann have not, as far as we are aware, provided public comment in the wake of these newspapers' actions. All three men are up for re-election this November.

It is time, honorable legislators - it is past time.

[fletcher]

I believe (but am not sure) they post in the paper who got their Concealed Carry Permits around where I live, too... Been doing it for the longest time

[Rimmer]

This is just wrong.

We need links, email address, mailing address for all news media from the Editor on down responsible for printing names of us who legally Conceal Carry in Ohio. If we can't make it a sticky then we at least can add the info in this thread.

I would like the chance to send a letter to all those that wish to publicize my name as though I were some kind of criminal.

I'll be back later to edit/add the information on the Warren Ohio paper thats doing the same thing.

[flatrock]

While its not real nice..whats wrong with publishing public info?

There are people who get CCW permits because they are afraid for their lives and being stalked by people. Publishing this list lets potential attackers know that the person they are stalking is armed, and even the county that they reside in if they were trying to keep that information from their stalker.

It IS public information.

No it is not public information. The law does provide for the media to have access to the lists so that they can make sure that the law is being implemented fairly. However, if the Sheriff provides this information to a person that is not a member of the media, it's a felony. The law assumes that the media will use the information responsibly, which is an unreasonable expectation. However our govenor demanded that this provision be included in the law, and the state congress didn't want to make him veto it, even though they likely had the votes to override the veto.

There's already an investigation of a sheriff and newspaper where the Sheriff released the street addresses of the permit holders, which is not allowed by law, and the newspaper published them. A special prosecutor has been assigned in that case, and it's being investigated.

AFAIK it does NOT violate the law (but I could be wrong).

It's definately in the grey area, and while obviously not what the law explicityly allows the information to be used for, I very much doubt that they could be successfully prosecuted or sued for this. I may have to find out, because my name will be among those printed.

[EricOKC]

According to the law, name and age may be released to law enforcement and journalists for the purposes of investigation only.

Why journalists are included is a mystery.

Addresses may NOT be released to either. Publishing the addresses is illegal. The circumstances under which the names and ages were obtained is questionable as there is not an open investigation against all of the CCW holders.

The Plain Dealer will likely find itself slapped with a civil suit, if not a criminal one. Although, IIRC, Ohioans for Concealed Carry were at one time looking into taking out ads in competitve papers and printing the names and addresses of particular members of the Plain Dealer staff.

Curiously, it seems at least one of the management employees of the Plain Dealer holds a CCW and his information was notably absent from the list as published.

[Ohen Cepel]

No good S.O.*'s!

It is sad the exent that these people will go to.

Not sure how to retaliate. Maybe ensure that every pro-gun person drops them a line and cancels their subscription.

Or, get a lawyer. Even if they don't win much/anything maybe they can stop such future behavior.

I know everytime the Baltimore slime call me about a subcription I tell them that once their censorship of gun ads is gone I may consider buying their rag, till them. No way.

It's a sad situation.

[Jackthelad]

I know I have called him. This was in the post above-

The editor of the Cleveland believes in open records. Thus he should certainly have no problem with OFCC publishing his home address and telephone number:

Douglas Clifton
19 Shoreby Dr.
Cleveland, OH 44108-1161
Tel.: (216) 761-6577

[Beren]

A thread on this already exists:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93998

[Tharg]

****....

I thought the whole point of CHL was CONCEALED. Yer pretty much not concealed if you are labled in a newspaper article... and since its my contention that many CHL holders would generally have more than one firearm in the house - a ripe target if that is the intention of the criminal. Lets keep hoping that criminals aren't well read.

I'm sure the intent to give media the privliage was to add a check and balance - say for instance if something when wrong w/ the approval process and someone who shouldn't have a CHL had one according to the by-laws of that state. (or someone w/ a proven track record of violating peoples rights via violence etc)

Is the whole newspaper anti or what? Surely someone could have seen what this was actually doing. Most law abiding citizens aren't even going to notice the list, just like most don't bother to look at the known sex offenders site... its the one's who have a particular intrest in knowing where firearms are that would be the danger =(

bah

J/Tharg!

[Jackthelad]

Sorry about the dupe thread thing. Thanks, Mod Squad- I didn't see it before.

[papercut]

I'm mulling over a letter to the editor that I think (hope) will stun them into realizing their stupidity....

I'll post it when I get it nearly finished for comments.

[WonderNine]

Sounds interesting, I can't wait to read it.

[LiquidTension]

Legal or not, the actions of that horrid newspaper are immoral at best. I'm not much for violence, but I wouldn't shed a tear if the newspaper staff's homes were violated after their info is published somewhere. Would serve them right - they intentionally put good people in harm's way simply because they are mean spirited, poor losers, and well, idiots.

[ZeroX]

Surely, at least one lawsuit is going to come from this.

[Andrew Rothman]

Any Ohio residents who would like some suggestions from a former journalist in finding the addresses, phones, etc. of the Plain Dealer staff are encouraged to send me a PM.

[Standing Wolf]

Oh, gosh! I thought the right to privacy covered only abortion.

[WonderNine]

nm

[nero45acp]

the lengths that some folks will use their 1st amendment rights to deprive others of their 2nd amendment rights...........sad and ironic:banghead:





nero

[Ironbarr]

There's always the court house records of property owned, garnishments, judgements to unpaid creditors, overdue tax liens and all kinds of other public info.

Remember that that decison was made by management not necessarily the lower ranking employees.

[aut2no]

Some of the compromises added to acheive the OHIO law are ridiculous and dangerous, i.e. visible carry while in/on vehicle - in car...on motorcycle. They seem to have an organized CCW group staying on top of things.

The Cleveland paper (assuming it's the Plain Dealer who editorially opposed the proposed CCW legislation) obviously has done this with secondary motives to influence the current case of the other newspaper publishing CCW names.

quote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not much for violence, but I wouldn't shed a tear if the newspaper staff's homes were violated after their info is published somewhere. Would serve them right -
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I share your outrage, violence in lieu of legal process is not the answer - especially from us gunowners. The decison to publish this freedom of information to assist burglars and assailants was made by a "few" top dogs and not the "staff" in general.

[Rimmer]

The Plain Dealer in Cleveland is owned by Advance, these guys.... well someone within this huge organization isn't fond of firearms.

http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/advance.asp

[txgho1911]

Plain dealer has mad it clear. They are not a worl or even National class of organization.
I hope this causes enough stir to get the antis stood on ear.

[MikeK]

My sister-in-law owns a few hardware storesin the Cincinatti area. Sent her a link to the Ohio Concealed Carry WEB site. I'm sure she didn't have any 'No Gun' signs posted anyway.

[Justin]

While its not real nice..whats wrong with publishing public info? I'll skip right past the obviously self-evident fact that publishing such a list is both an invasion of privacy and borders on harrassment, and jump right to my own personal experience.


Several years ago, a newspaper in northern Indiana got a bug up it's rear and decided to publish an online, searchable database of every CC permit holder in the state. The database included name and town of residence, among other information.

They decided to do this while I was on a 3-month internship in Newark NJ.

Now tell me, just how do you think I felt knowing that any ne'er-do-well willing to crack open a phone book could go find an empty apartment full of free guns?

:uhoh:

[Carlos]

While its not real nice..whats wrong with publishing public info?

Because it is malicious, pure and simple. You don't like my ability to carry a weapon, so you set me up for trouble.

I like the idea of CCW holders responding in kind and releasing "public" information about the morons who think it's necessary to potentially victimize law abiding citizens.

[P95Carry]

It is a direct (IMO) erosion of individual's rights to carry. An attempt to ''get back'' at a law they hate seeing enacted.

If they took one step back and actually saw that CCW saves lives and keeps crime figures DOWN - not up - then maybe they'd consider respecting privacy (it matters little here whether legal or not) ..... but posting all this data is at best ..... insolent and back-stabbing.

At worst it invites backlash potential, against those upright folks who have (at last) been able to excercize what should always have been their right anyways. It is obscene and anti social. They make me want to ---- :barf:

[dukeofurl]

If someone can find a pro RKBA attorney, I would look into a nice class action lawsuit on behalf of every person who has had their privacy violated.

Why dosent the Plain Dealer go out and get the personal information of bar and liquor Store Owners and publish the personal information of these people so MADD can protest and interrupt their lives at their convenience.

[Publicola]

Y'all get me names & addresses that are verified (i.e. you're sure that name is the corretc one & not someone who shares the same name as the paper's employee) & I'll publish it on my site. I've been doing a quid pro quo thing with the other papers that have done this & I'll do it as long as I'm able

[ssr]

Here's a link to the Ohioans for Concealed Carry page that links the story along with the editors name, picture, house info, address, etc:

Send him some emails, letters.

http://www.ofcc.net/article2273.html

[Browns Fan]

fletcher from Raleigh said:

I believe (but am not sure) they post in the paper who got their Concealed Carry Permits around where I live, too... Been doing it for the longest time

That's funny... they dont do that down here in Fayetteville.

[OF]

Scumbags. What kind of person would do such a thing? How debased. Immoral, worthless scum.

- Gabe :fire:

[Sungun09]

"Ohioans For Concealed Carry has learned that the editors of the Cleveland Plain Dealer have begun publishing a names of concealed handgun license-holders in Ciuyahoga Co. and five surrounding counties. Three counties, Ashtabula, Cuyahoga & Erie, were published today, and three more will be published tomorrow." ...

"The editor of the Cleveland believes in open records. Thus he should certainly have no problem with OFCC publishing his home address and telephone number:

Douglas Clifton
19 Shoreby Dr.
Cleveland, OH 44108-1161
Tel.: (216) 761-6577 " ...

"Clifton paid $550,000 for the house in 1999. He and his wife Peg reside there. They have two adult children and two grandchildren."

[FreeAmerican]

I am pretty sure when I got mine they list your name in the paper here also. I am also pretty sure that in Va it is just a matter of public record and anyone can go request to see the records.

Now think about this... I really don't have a problem with it. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If you were a crook would you go to a home that you KNOW FOR SURE has someone packin in it.

I think the paper in this case is sensationalizing it and they are showing a poor attitude. Write them and cancel your subscription. And tell you fellow CCW to do the same. Hit them where it hurts.

[dukeofurl]

Even better - Picket line in front of the newspaper. I can see the 911 call now.

If it happened in fantasyland:

"911 Emergency"
"Yeah, I work at the Plain Dealer and theres a whole bunch of angry people with guns outside right now..."
"How do you know they have guns?"
"Well, I dont really see that they have guns but I know they do...."
"Um......hows that?"
"Well, we ran an article with all their personal information and now they're protesting and probably packing heat."
"If thats the case you folks deserve it. Call us back when they start shooting."
*click*

How it will probably happen in the real world

"911 Emergency"
"Yeah, I work at the Plain Dealer and theres a whole bunch of angry people with guns outside right now..."
"We'll send a SWAT team right away, take cover under your desk."

[GSB]

It'll be interesting to see where this goes. Looks like the public information argument is at best a gray area given what previous posters have said, but I think an argument might be made that this was an attempt to intimidate people engaged in lawful activity. I don't know how the courts or the law look on that sort of thing.

Let me give an example of what I mean by the intimidation factor: it is perfectly legal for a bunch of big white guys with shaved heads and White Power tattoos to hang around together on a street corner. But I'm not sure how a court would rule if they just happened to be "innocently" gathered outside of a polling place in a minority neighborhood at the behest of a someone with an agenda to intimidate minorities during the free exercise of their voting rights. Again, a rather gray area.

The issue of theft is also a good one. If someone could demonstrate that their home was burglarized because the criminal learned of their gun possession via the list, what is the civil liability of the paper? These weren't "public figures" the paper was exposing, but private citizens going about their own business. You just never know where a civil trial will end up. I'd be curious to know what any actual lawyers on the board have to say about this.

[Binkster]

Freeamerican brings up a good point:

"Now think about this... I really don't have a problem with it. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If you were a crook would you go to a home that you KNOW FOR SURE has someone packin in it. "


That list could be used as a reference on people who would not be able to carry a consealed weapon and therefore making them an easier target. We should write a (sarcastic) letter to the editors of the newspapers thanking them publishing the list to indirectly let others know who have taken it upon themselves to provide for their own protection. I would go on to thank them for making their family and other families unarmed targets. Taking that another step (maybe too far), include a mapquest map to their residence with a note written on the top saying "Rob this house- This person is unarmed."

[falconer]

Anyone up for a roadtrip this weekend? We could stop by Mr. Clifton's home and tell him how displeased we are with his poor decision to publish all those names.

[Lennyjoe]

Or better yet, how about a picket line with banners that have the names, addresses, phone numbers and SSN of the bosses that run the paper.

I wonder how my name is gonna show up in the paper when I come home to visit and get my permit.

Folks are gonna look at it funny when they show my address in Tucson Arizona.;)

[Roadrunner]

I didn't see it mentioned here or I just plain missed it, but did any of the newspapers give any reasons why they were doing this? That's just wrong.

One or two small local papers here in Virginia tried to do the same. They may have even published a list, but the objections and response was pretty intense and the list(s) were deleted.

[FreeAmerican]

I have been thinking about this all morning.... keep in mind this guy's main goal.. to sell papers...

What if he is trying to bait you guys... then he can say... "I had 40 gun NUTS show up at my house with GUNS! This is why we can not let people carry guns."

If that happens we will be in the same boat as Spiderman!

[George S.]

So what is the law in Ohio regarding the release of CCW license holder names to the public or media?? If there is no specific statute about confidentiality of this information, then the media will continue to publish this information and of course they will use the 1st Amendment as their argument.

IF there is no specific law, than Ohio CCW holders must work with state legislatures to create a law that specifically prohibits the release of the information. It should be a felony with stiff penalties for violating the law.

The media has taken "the right of the public to know" too far. In a lot of cases, I really don't give a royal rat's azz about detailed information about somebody's life, troubles, where they eat, or whatever. I believe we have just as much a right to personal privacy as we do to own and possess firearms.

And if you look real close into the "motives" of the media and specifically newspapers, they only really care about the bottom line: PROFIT. They sell papers to make money. The day of the honest and trustworthy print journalist is long since gone. They are now no more than the newspaper version of Geraldo.

[El Rojo]

Remember that that decison was made by management not necessarily the lower ranking employees.I would vote for publishing them anyway. Most people aren't going to harrass the little guys and if they do, hopefully the little guys harrass management to do what it takes to get them off of that list. If they get upset and blame the pro-gun groups, then obviously they support this kind of thing and they deserve no protection for supporting it. I think I might call that phone number just for the fun of it. I bet it is disconnected.

[halvey]

The editor of the Cleveland believes in open records. He believes in this because it makes his job EASIER. Lazy reporter.

[hso]

The best approach to this sort of thing may be contacting the advertisers who keep the doors of the paper open and telling them that you will not be doing business with any company that supports any paper that does this!

Send a letter to the editor saying the same thing.

Organize as many people together as possible and send a letter with their signaures to the paper and the advertisers.

Prepare a petition asking if the public wants the new paper to publish all the names and addresses of everyone that applys for a building permit, divorce, a handgun permit or any other legal activity or even is ticked or arrested for any misdemeanor from jaywalking to DUI and try to get as many people to sign it as possible and then send it in to the paper and advertisers.

Hit them in the bank and they may change editors.

[George S.]

It sounds like the Ohio law regarding release of information needs to be changed. CCW license holders need to contact their legislators and demand a change in the law that will make it illegal to release ANY information to the public.

While law enforcement agencies may have a reasonable and justifiable need to get information from a CCW database, newspapers do not. Until changes are made, it sounds like this sort of thing may continue.

And IMHO, the newspapers are doing this more to sell papers and make a profit and not because of any self-righteous desire to speak the "truth". While I believe in the 1st Amendment, when the media use it as a shield to further their political and financial stands, something needs to be done.

So the good citizens of Ohio need to get to work and tell their lawmakers that this has to stop. All it takes is to have one person harmed or even killed because of this assinine desire of the media to publish information about people who simply wish to protect themselves from violence and hopefully the lawmakers will act.

You can bet that if some tragedy happens because of the actions of the papers, they will not share in any blame nor accept any responsibility for letting the information out.

[El Rojo]

I am surprised I haven't heard from Jim March on this one. He is using this freedom of information act stuff in California for good. He wants to link the CCW permits to favoritism and racism in an attempt to reform the system. That was the original intent of allowing this information to become public to a limited extent. Have we considered that this is all a bigger conspiracy set about by the anti-gunners to get the records sealed so they can then begin discriminate in issuance without any means of oversight.

Law-abiding watchdog says,
"I don't think you are issuing permits to qualified applicants and furthermore I think the permits you are issueing are not reflective of the people in your jurisdiction. I would like to see a list of your CCW holders."

Sheriff/Police Chief's Response,
"I am sorry, but I am mandated by Ohio law to keep these records private. There is nothing I can do about your request and I assure you I am not being discrimatory in my issuance procedures. Have a nice day."

I think it is a good idea to make the records available and a good idea to make provisions to punish those who abuse the system. I think it is a bad idea to eliminate this oversight provision because liberals are abusing it. Think about this one.

[NavajoNPaleFace]

Where would the newspaper's liability lie should a break in occur at one of the residences and the stolen gun was used in a serious and violent crime and it was proven later the burglar chose that residence because of the name and address post in the newspaper?

Just another thought put out since most other bases have been covered.

[John Ross]

Guys, this is a non-issue. For those of you who don't know me, I teach CCW classes in newly emancipated Missouri.

IMO it is only interesting to look at who has licenses in MAY ISSUE states such as California and in NJ or NYC. In shall-issue states, rich guys have licenses, and so do guys who work on assembly lines. Big deal.

As to the argument "Now the crooks will know I own guns", oh puh-leez. Sixty percent of the adults in this country own guns.

A better letter to the editor might read:

Dear XXXX,

I'd like to commend you for publishing the list of CHL holders recently. While some may see this as a sensationalistic invasion of privacy, there is another issue that is far more important:

CHL holders (like me) first and foremost want to AVOID having to use the guns we carry. The best that can happen from an armed conflict with a criminal is that we get to keep the life we had the day before. This is most easily accomplished if the conflict never arises in the first place.

You have essentially published an "avoid" list for the criminal community to read and heed. Some will argue that it is also a list of people who own at least one gun, making these people targets for burglars. Since over half the adults in this country own at least one gun, your list is really a list of those few people in the area who have the training, the means, AND THE WILL to *refuse* to submit to violent criminals.

Any burglar foolish enough to use your publication as a shopping list will find himself in jail (or worse) in short order. Those who doubt this should ask themselves if criminals typically rob police officers because police have guns? Since CHL licenseholders are in general more skilled at defensive shooting than the police (there are hundreds of examples of this), CHL holders are about the last group that criminals want contact with.

Thanks for reducing the likelihood I'll ever have to shoot someone in self-defense.

XXXX


Use this if you want.

JR

[Waitone]

Publish info on the paper's management.

Publish info on the paper's owners if a private company.

Publish info on the paper's stockholders if a public company.

Publish info on the paper's key management.

Publish info on the paper's legal counsel.

Publish info on the paper's key advertisers.

Write the paper's key advertisers.

CC: your elected reps and tell them to fix the problem or they will get the treatment.

It is one thing to have CCH licenses as a matter of public record. It is an entirely different matter to have it published in a fit of jihad against self-defense.

[jeff-10]

What if the paper published the name and address of someone who was being stalked and got there CCW for that explicit reason? Then the stalker saw the info in the paper and used it to track down there stalkee. I guess things are a little different here in Florida than Ohio, if they published the huge list of CCW holders in the local newspapers, the lawyers here would be salivating in the mouth at the chance for a class action lawsuit.

[Rimmer]

I posted this in another form regarding the Plain Dealers past ownership.
I think ol Marnie would be rolling over in her grave over all this.

Archive file: 09/16/03

Services for Marnie Vail McCausland, a National Rifle Association women's muzzleloading rifle champion whose family owned The Plain Dealer for more than 80 years, will be at 1 p.m. today at Vorhis Funeral Home, 5501 Montgomery Road, Norwood, Ohio.

McCausland, 45, whose given name was Marienne Vail, died of complications from cancer Wednesday at the Hospice of Cincinnati.

The Cleveland native, who grew up in Shaker Heights, was a descendant of Liberty E. Holden, who bought The Plain Dealer in 1885 and whose heirs owned the paper until 1967. Thomas H. White, founder of White Sewing Machine Co., also was one of her ancestors.

McCausland's parents, Kay Vail, who lives in Shaker Heights, and H. Lansing Vail Jr., who died in June, fostered her passion for the outdoors and game hunting.

Her husband, Samuel, who died of cancer in 2001, shared her love of firearms. He introduced her to muzzleloaders, which marksmen load with black powder.

Since the mid-1990s, McCausland won several NRA and National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association sharpshooting contests.

She also worked in the firearms industry. McCausland, who held a communications degree from Cedarville University, was a range officer for Target World of Cincinnati and a public relations adviser for Thompson Center Arms of Rochester, N.H. More recently, she managed communications for Savage Arms, a Massachusetts-based manufacturer of muzzleloaders and classic firearms.

McCausland hunted antelope in Wyoming, bagged a bear in West Virginia and ran a whitetail deer hunt for women in Texas. She also participated in historic re-enactments, showed her quarter horse, rode motorcycles and climbed Mount Rainier.

Surviving with her mother are her brother, Robert L. Vail of Russell Township, and sister, Delia Fritz of Hackettstown, N.J.

[spacemanspiff]

how long before firearm purchases become 'open record' and are published for all to see?

[GSB]

As to the argument "Now the crooks will know I own guns", oh puh-leez. Sixty percent of the adults in this country own guns.

Okay. Do you own any gold coins? How about we take an ad out in the paper that says "John Ross owns an extensive collection of gold coins, and his house is unattended during the day because he works for a living."

[Jackthelad]

Great. I just got through with an informal meeting with my supervisor and one of our owners at the company I work for. I was asked- "Do you know your name is in the paper?- (I did), Do you know why? (yes) Do you have anything to say about this? (no)". Needless to say, I work for a pretty anti 2a company. I keep my personal life private, and one motivating factor to obtain my CHL was an EXTREMELY vindictive ex- brother in law who has not been stopped by my sister's TPO's- (She lives next door to me).

[Waitone]

Great. I just got through with an informal meeting with my supervisor and one of our owners at the company I work for. Start looking for a lawyer now. No sense waiting until you are fired.

[Rimmer]

Jackthelad
I'm most curious as to the name of this organization you work for....
Can they actually drag you on the carpet cause your name was in the paper for CCW?

[Jayman]

That has happened at least twice in VA, that I am aware of. The most recent time it was an online database that a little local paper threw together.

The VCDL started to publish every staff member at that little paper's personal info to their web page and mailing list. You don't really want 3,000+ people calling you and mailing you 24/7 asking you to stop doing something.

The paper blinked first, the database went away.

[FedDC]

I don't know, as an LEO, we are all subject to FOIA requests and often, the paper will publish all sorts of personal data on LEOs including their names, addresses, DOBs, phone #s, employment history, disciplinary history (Even the accusations that were unfounded), any reports they have filed...etc. Back in Memphrica a person could obtain a mountain of info about any officer just by going to the jail and asking for it...

It sucks that the info is out there in public, but you are not alone. We have been living with that PITA for a long time.

[Jackthelad]

Rimmer,
The company I work for is a title insurance agency, and employs approx 40 people. No bold "calling on the carpet", but rather a snide condescending attitude and a reminder of our company policy on firearms in the workplace.

[sendec]

I notice a number of names from the various open carry frays here - would'nt publishing these names deter bad guys from attacking them? Can anyone document a case of somebody being burgled because of a list like this?

:D

I dont think it was a great thing to do, but really enjoy watching people try to eat their cake and have it too.

[FedDC]

It is kind of funny that al of these bold, "make a public statement about your rights types" get so hot when they are thrust into public just like the rest of us. I might even start referring to these CCW holders as a special class and calling myself a serf or a peon since I wasn't special enough to get my name in the paper...;) LOL

[RobW]

What you see here is the plain face of so called "Liberals". No better joy for them than to eliminate EVERYONE not agreeing with their views.

No matter if it's legal or not it is ETHICALLY despicable. These "Liberals" side with criminals to gain (as they think) power to rule.

It's an open invitation for criminals either to to burglar houses where they can find arms, or to burglar houses where they can be sure there are NO arms. It is instigation to commit a crime for political reasons.

Goebbels would be proud of them.

[Lazpash]

El Rojo, no offense, and condolences for living in a MAY issue. butOhio is a SHALL issue... so that's not SO MUCH of a concern...IMO. But good too be thinking on it ;)

The biggest PRACTICAL problem _I_ see w/this is what IF a woman (or for that matter a guy, but for "argument's sake" a woman seems to press more "defenseless" buttons) who obtained a CHL did so EXPRESSLY to have a defense against some psycho ex-boyfriend? What if by making this intel "available" when it previously was NOT BY LAW (for just this reason I believe at least in part) clued the stalker ex-boyfriend aware what county his ex-girlfriend NOW resides in? What if by obtaining this info he now can AGAIN begin harassing her? I mean talk about CLUELESS MALE WHITE PHOQUES!

Rimmer noted

Jackthelad
I'm most curious as to the name of this organization you work for....
Can they actually drag you on the carpet cause your name was in the paper for CCW?

No offense, but take it from one who has heard MANY stories, they don't NEED to state a "purpose" all they have to do is give him poor reviews over the next 2-3 months, perhaps a bogus reprimand or two for whatever... then dismiss him for "poor work performance".

Frankly I'm too valuable as an employee to ever have BEEN "fired" (except once where I basically "orchestrated" it for my own reasons.) And when I interview I stay "quiet" about being a lesbian, once offered a job, I make it VERY clear I am, (BEFORE accepting the job) but stress that I'm NOT an "in your face" type. Life's too short to spend stressing in a job you either don't enjoy, or who benefits the "wrong sort" of person(s) (bigots), whether that we anti-gay OR anti-GUN bigots, IMO... Guess I'll need to add RKBA supporter to my "vices" in future interviews...;). I guess I AM "in your face" about the RKBA stuff.... but not at work ... that would in 98% of cases be unprofessional... ;)

[El Rojo]

No offense taken Lazpash, I often forget that there are free citizens beyond our borders who don't have to have a good reason. Fortunately I live in a enclave of freedom loving people's and I have my CCW.

[Jackthelad]

Fed, I am puzzled. Your comments- "It is kind of funny that all of these bold, "make a public statement about your rights types" get so hot when they are thrust into public just like the rest of us.", seems to be a bit mean spirited. Why? I have never asked to be thrust into public, and would dare to say I have never posted here indicating otherwise. Sorry, I thought all of us here were here due to a common interest, and didn't think that we were here to feed on each other. Oh, and this comment - " I might even start referring to these CCW holders as a special class and calling myself a serf or a peon since I wasn't special enough to get my name in the paper... LOL", -What is that about? Is that about the on again/off again LEO bashing that I have seen occasionally? No flame intended here, just curious about where you are coming from.

[Felonious Monk]

Why not write a letter to the Editor:

Dear Mr. WussyPants,

Thank you for letting the community know that I am legally armed and well prepared to defend my self and my family, should we be accosted by muggers, rapists, or a home invasion.

I am sure that it has made my area of the commuinity safer, by ensuring that anyone with curiosity regarding legal carry can find out who has excersized this most American of rights, encouraging the criminals to seek non-armed victims in other areas.

I am confident that many others will want to join me in becoming educated and legally licensed to protect their loved ones in this manner, once it becomes common knowledge that you will assist us in serving notice to any would-be attackers.

Once again, thank you for supporting this fundamental human right of self-defense.

And sir, if you claim to be a balanced media outlet, I'm interested to see if you will print this as a unique perspective on your actions.

Sincerely,
A Citizen

Thoughts?

[FedDC]

Jack, it was not intended to offend, just poke fun at some of the folks that like to refer to themselves as "Serfs" in the LEO bashing discussions. They constantly seem to complain about their percieved lack of equality and rejoice in LEOs personal lives being thrust into public... I realize that many of the people on that list are not like that and I do feel sorry for them.

[Jackthelad]

No problem, I was just trying to follow the thread.

[454c]

One of the things that I was thinking has been mentioned.Do the non CCW folks not realize that this is pointing them out as unarmed and therefore a safer target for criminals?

[gryphon]

What if by making this intel "available" when it previously was NOT BY LAW (for just this reason I believe at least in part) clued the stalker ex-boyfriend aware what county his ex-girlfriend NOW resides in? What if by obtaining this info he now can AGAIN begin harassing her? I mean talk about CLUELESS MALE WHITE PHOQUES!

Exactly.

I work as a computer programmer for the State of Ohio, and in all the systems I have worked for there is information that you don't want to get out to the general public, EXACTLY for one of the reasons listed above. Some others are for those who have restraining orders.

I know specifically for child support that there are a lot of now single mothers who are getting their money from ex-hubby, and hubby does not know where she resides, and for good reason.

Newspaper, TV news and news magazines today are all about ratings and entertainment. Very few are interested in reporting the news as it happened. The reporters think that by "sensationalizing" the story that somehow makes it better. To the Plain Dealer, this is just another story to try and get them more readers and to hell with anyone that gets hurt along the way.

The only way they will learn is if/when they get sued and they can prove that their actions were negligent.

[sevenpoint62mm]

While its not real nice..whats wrong with publishing public info?

Its not public. But if your so free to open yourself up please post your home number, address, blood type, SSN, credit card numbers, bank routing number, medical history, and full legal name. I'll have a field day.

[LiquidTension]

The biggest problem with posting this particular public information is that criminals are slack - that's why they don't have jobs. It's ok to have it on public record, because no criminals that are into B&E are going to go do a public records search to see if the people they're robbing have guns. When you make it so that some random thug can just check out a newspaper that someone leaves on a park bench somewhere and get an entire list of targets from it without expending any effort, THAT is a problem. The argument of, "they won't rob a place where they know guns are," is simple minded. While many criminals are not smart, they're usually smart enough to wait until a home is unoccupied before breaking in.

Publishing an easily accessible list of targets known to have a commodity that criminals want is stupid, and would only be done by a) morons, b) enemies of law abiding citizens, or c) both a and b.

[Ironbarr]

let's take this to the nth degree.

Without Bad Guys the economy gets dented. How many "billions" are hawked by "those who know" that are considered losses?

Let's look at who/what benefits by maintaining conditions so that there are always Bad Guys:
**Insurance - pay out many millions and probably write more coverage as BG-itis continues;
**MFRS, Transport, & Retailers - property is replaced/repaired - more sales;
**Gov't at all levels * - taxes, fines, fees; to mention just a few areas.

Let's do a "what if". What if there were no BG's?

*Insurance would have less layout. The market competition reduces premiums.
*Goods sales increase with more money to spend.
*Gov't now has a problem. With no BG's there is less need for some services - and probably some loss of funding:

...Police forces are trimmed (traffic, domestic stuff, calamitous events) - SWAT teams, narcs, etc. not needed.

...Politicians cause less havoc by not chasing BG events with after-the-fact, ineffective legislation; this leads to $$$$ savings in reduced overhead costs in salaries, fees, supplies, services, etc.

Just consider how many gov't agencies and their employees work in, or benefit by, BG activity? Now there's an operating expense probably worth some billions.

BG's support a chunk of the economy - the practical side is that BG's will never go away; there are too many people who need the Bad Guy in the world - too many who'd have to find other work.

Heck of a way to run a world, huh?!

[c_yeager]

One nice thing about this list is that it provides us with a means to dispell some of the media BS surrounding the issuance of permits.

It has been said that having CCW permits will fill the streets with guns and that criminals and gangsters will be able to carry without consequence.

Browsing through the ages of the people indicated on that list i would have to say that the average age is in the LATE 30's. Now unless the demographics of your average street hoodlum have changed i think this is a handy indicator that these ARENT the people getting permits.

As a side note its suprising how many "senior citizens" are represented on that list. I hope that group is voting with their conscience this November.

Also, isnt the minimum age for a Ohio permit 21 years? I looked through three counties and didnt see a single person under the age of 23 or 24...

[P95Carry]

Andy - your ''what if'' .. has an enormous amount of credence ..... couldn't agree more.

[yy]

I can totally see how press access to CCW names can potentially discourage abuses of a may-issue county. I also see that the Dealer paper is intimidating Ohioans from getting CCW.

What's up with that?

[PunkDave]

Hmmm... and the anti-gunners wonder why there is opposition to licensing and databases. :scrutiny: