...run with plus ammo? Second, what are the three most important areas you need to have ready to make it pass the SHTF? Just a question to see what you guys and girls are thinking about it. Oil is over 43 dollars a barrel. One guy on TV said that if it goes much higher gas could go to 5 dollar a gallon.
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July 30, 2004, 12:40 PM
One guy on TV said that if it goes much higher gas could go to 5 dollar a gallon.Gas here is $1.85/gal.
If it goes much higher, it will be $1.95/gal.
If it goes much higher than that, it will be $2.00/gal.
It's a long way to $5/gal gas.
1000 rounds of 7.62x39 is heavy. I couldn't wait to get it to my car from the gun show. One gun, a few hundred rounds. Maybe stash some in an out of the way place that I could get to if need be.
I'd be more worried about food than anything.
July 30, 2004, 05:18 PM
Based on the crowd of completely overweight and out of shape gunowners I see at the range and shows, I would be surprized if 97% of them could run with any rifle! Heck, most couldn't run around the block without a serious heart attack.
The dirty little secret about guns is that it attracts a large number of people who are basically lazy about fitness and somehow think their lucky rifle or handgun will save them. A gun is a magic talisman to protect them from evil.
August 4, 2004, 04:43 PM
Today I drove by one of the cheaper gas station in my area. Diesel is now 0.989 and 95 octane gasoline is 1.189 - Euros per Liter! That equals US$4.50 and US$5.40 respectively per gallon.
But considering the fuel-(in)efficiency of American cars (or the cars most Americans prefer), I'm spending just as much money to fill up my car as you do. ;)
Back on topic: Before I'd take a second rifle (or even a handgun) with me, I'd take more ammo for the first one.
August 4, 2004, 04:55 PM
I resemble that remark! :D
August 4, 2004, 06:32 PM
August 4, 2004, 08:20 PM
hmmm...I've heard stories of small-statured people who pushed bicycles through jungle trails several hundred miles in opposition of a determined, well-fed, mechanized modern force. These bicycles carried hundreds of pounds of munitions, supplies, food...pretty much anything needed in the south came from the north...on foot or on 2 skinny wheels.
They did this for years and the modern force couldn't stop the flow entirely.
You gotta have a truck?
I thought so.
August 4, 2004, 08:34 PM
Well, I don't know what kind of car you drive, but my daily driver is Ford Ranger (compact, light duty pickup truck - I think the bed is rated to carry about 750lbs, it can tow up to 1600lbs including the weight of the trailer). It gets about 25mpg, which ain't bad compared to a lot of sedans out there. It is very useful, and I find myself needing the capabilities of a truck so often that I can't imagine not having it available. My Honda Civic just plain old just can't compete in that respect.
My commute adds up to about 110 miles/week, so I'm spending about $8.14 a week in gas for commuting at the current price in my area. Based on your figures I'd have to get 73mpg to have the same total cost for commuting if gas was $5.40/gal. Are you getting 73mpg or better?
Mind you, you quoted a price for 95 octane, and I always get 87 octane, so maybe the comparison isn't so valid. Besides, the best we can get at a typical gas station here is 92 octane. If you assume 92 octane in Germany would be $5.30/gal and comapared it to 92 octane here, that would give 65mpg as the required improvement for me to break even. And that's before you consider the cost differences in the vehicles themselves, as well as repair/maintence and insurance costs. At least here the super effecient cars cost a lot more than their equivalent "guzzler." And, that new fangled technology usually costs more to keep up and fix. Because of the higher cost of the vehicle insurance is also correspondingly more too.
Anyway, back on topic. If I had to head for the hills in survival mode, and could only grab one rifle and however much ammo I wanted, I'd probably go for a .22lr and thousands of rounds of ammo. A brick of .22lr weighs probably pretty close to the same as a hundred rounds of .223, nevermind .308. I'd probably be trying to avoid drawing attention to myself, so the quietness of .22lr would be an advantage. And it would allow me to hunt small game like bunnies and squirrles without destroying the meat. At very close range neck or eye shots on deer will bring venison home too.
August 4, 2004, 09:02 PM
First thing to consider here is that petroleum in Europe is very different than it is in the USA. We have basicly 4 choices...87 octane (regular), 89 octane (super) 92 octane (premium) 93 octane (Sunoco Ultra)
Our gasoline is lead free, an has several other additives in it to compensate for the lack of tetra-ethal lead in the form of anti-knock compounds, and detergents.
One of the reasons our gasoline costs less than in Europe, is because of the refining, and transport infastructure we have in place here helps to keep the cost down.
$43.00 per barrel is high, but is been as high as $48.00 per barrel in recent years without or per gallon price breaking the $2.00 mark. With the recent mergers of the bigger oil companies, there is less compition between brands, and when you have limited compition, there is less incentive to keep prices down.
I drive an American gas hog, it's a 2002 Dodge Ram 1500, quad cab 4X4 pickup with an 8 foot cargo bed. Being a profession fire fighter on a barrier island, I need a 4X4 to get me to the fire apparatus durring the worst possible conditions. I also earn a living installing HVAC equipment, and I carry a lot of tools & equipment as part of that job, so a full size pickup is required. I get 17 MPG on the highway, and less in city driving, but it's the price I pay to earn a living....(besides, a good 4X4 pickup makes a great SHTF vehicle as long as I can keep gas in it)
Now, as far as SHTF weaponry, I like the K.I.S.S. method.....
A Stainless, 4" Smith & Wesson 686 on my belt, and a Winchester 1894 chambered in .38 / .357 magnum slung over my shoulder. Both guns use the same ammo, and between the two of them, there's nothing I can't kill, or stop from invading my space......
August 4, 2004, 09:13 PM
Europeans still use leaded gas :what: . I'm sceptical of that. From my understanding, their gas is actually refined to a higher degree than ours becuase of very strict limits on sulfer content, and other, what they call, aeromatics. Between that, and the draconian taxes levied on each liter of gas, it's no wonder their costs are so high. But, they do have the advantage of really good public transportation that is only rivaled in a few cities here. Part of the reason their public transportation succeeds where ours fails is that we are much more spread out. They just don't have anywhere near the suburban sprawl that we do.
The previously mentioned .357 wheel/lever gun combo would be my (very close) second choice and probably what I'd grab if I had the time, and ability to carry it (IOW if I'm not already too loaded down with other stuff).
August 4, 2004, 09:27 PM
I can go quite a ways with this combo either the 13 or the 586 and a few hundred rounds and enough food for a while. Add transportation I can put in the reloading supplies and can go for quite a ways.
August 5, 2004, 08:12 AM
I've done jogs with weapon before. Wasn't fun.
Rifle and a pistol. Type doesn't matter much. I could blindly reach into my collection and be content with what I pull out. I'm fairly confident I could jog a good number of miles with it also.
For gas prices to hit $5, the price of oil per barrel would have to go through the roof. I could see prices hitting $2.5 maybe $3 if something bad happened. Past that, things would get ugly but could be compensated with strategic oil reserves for a while.
August 5, 2004, 12:14 PM
Why run when you can hide? You can only carry so much. If for some reason, fire for example, I had to run with what I could carry, I would not carry much at all. Pistol or two, maybe a rifle. Though some folks would stand in front of the open safe until it was too late, agonizing over what to take.:D
August 5, 2004, 01:02 PM
Are you getting 73mpg or better?
Actually, over the last 12,000km my car averaged 61mpg (diesel), but that includes a lot of short distance drives through the city. On the autobahn I can achieve more than 75 mpg. It's an Audi A2 1.2 TDI.
(Well, of course I exaggerated a bit when I said I'd spend as much on gas as average Americans do)
Leaded gas and fuel purity.
I can't even remember when they phased out leaded gas in Germany. My brother guesses it was about ten years ago.
Gas is available in three qualities, 91 octane (normal), 95 octane (super) and 98 octane (super plus). Shell even offers 100 octane (V-power), but tests showed that it's a waste of money. But young BMW-driving Turks dig it. ;)
The main reason for our high fuel prices are taxes, they make up for about 3/4 of it. A smaller reason is actually the US. The low limits on pollutants in exhaust fumes require gasoline of a higher quality than the US-based refineries can supply. The US therefore buys gas from the European market in Rotterdam. But I don't blame you for it, obviously you can afford it.
August 5, 2004, 03:25 PM
I actually wouldn't mind having a car like your A2. As cheap as gas is here, it would help to cut the fuel portion of the cost of driving quite a bit. The downside, like I said before, is that the cost for those cars when compared to their equivalent "guzzler" competitors is too high to justify. When it would take me 30 years to save enough on fuel to make up for the extra cost I, and most other Americans, just don't see the point. And I'm not exagerating when I say 30 years to hit break even. Maybe something like the A2 would be cheap enough to justify, but they don't sell them here.
Just as a comparison, if you look at the Honda Civic and compare the hybrid to a compareable straight gas engined model it looks like this:
Hybrid Price: $20,540
Ann. Cost (12K mi/yr, $1.85/gal): $462.50
LX Price: $15,560
MPG: 34 (approx average of 29 city/38 highway)
Ann. Cost (12K mi/yr, $1.85/gal): $652.94
At the annual savings of $190.44 it would take 26.15 years to recoup that extra $4,980 in purchase price. Even at $5.40/gal it would take 9 years to break even. And I could save more on the purchase price by going with a lesser Civic like the DX or HX which would mean the time to break even with a hybird would be even longer. Getting a manual transmission in any of the regular cars would save another $800 or so off the purchase price (only the automatic is available in the hybrid) thus extending the break even time even more.
The reason I picked the Civic as my example is that an approximate apples-to-apples comparison is possible. When you take an Audi vs a Honda it's more difficult to make a valid comparison becuase of the differences in equipment, performance, comfort, and whole host of other issues that play into the equation.
To keep this post at least vaguely related to guns, my truck can carry a lot more in the way of guns and ammo (plus a big drum of gasoline) than your A2 :neener: .
August 5, 2004, 04:36 PM
I think it all balances out in the end... After all, even if it was $20 per gallon, it would be cheaper for a european to drive across their county, than an american to drive across ours...
August 5, 2004, 05:19 PM
Actually my A2 wasn't that much more expensive than a "normal" car. The price difference between the "normal" 75hp 1.4TDI and the 61hp 1.2TDI is just €170. I compared the total price to that of a similar equipped 90hp VW Golf IV TDI, 75hp VW Polo TDI and 75hp Mercedes A160CDI. Only the Polo would have been cheaper.
For me the math is quite simple: I'll drive the car for 10-15 years, with 15,000-20,000km per year. The difference in fuel consumption to a Golf is about 1.5L per 100km. Thus I'll save between 2,250 and 4,500L of diesel (600-1200 gal) or €3,375-6,750. And besides the financial aspect it's also better for the environment!
Gun related remark: The A2 is large enough for all the rifles and handguns my brother and I currently own and enough ammo for a nice evening at the range. I just have to fold down one of the rear seats, because the case for the Rem 700 is too long. And less money spent on fuel means more money that can be spent on ammo! :D
August 5, 2004, 08:04 PM
I dare you to try to sell a new car with a sub-100hp engine in the USA. Only reason Honda, Toyota et al are seeing waiting lines for their hybrids (most of which still have close to 100hp combined between the gas and electric motors) is becuase they're making so few and there's apparently enough people with more money than brains (I only say that because there are people paying thousands of dollars over MSRP, and I generally consider a person to be fool if they even pay as much as MSRP on a car).
Personally I'm waiting on a car without either internal combustion or batteries to provide power before I go for anything new and different. Hybrids don't save you enough to be worthwhile (in money or pollution), straight electrics don't have the range necessary, and the small diesels don't have the performance to attract much of a market here. If fuel cell cars ever become viable I could see going for one of them.
The A2 is large enough for all the rifles and handguns my brother and I currently own and enough ammo for a nice evening at the range. That may be, but my little pickup can haul enough guns and ammo for TEOTWAWKI.:evil:
August 5, 2004, 09:56 PM
My little Suzuki 650 motorcycle makes more power than your diesel!! ;) But I've got to admit, carrying non-handguns on the motorcycle is a bit, ummm, tricky.
Kidding aside, if I tagged a regular AR-15 sporter and ammunition supply, I could go a long ways if need be. If I were to grab my AR-15 match rifle, well, she's a bit overweight as it were (roughly 16 pounds with the lead inserts installed). Not going to lug that far. And as far as range trips go, it takes a little creative thinking to fit my dad's competition gear, my competition gear and the two of us into my Nissan Altima for a day's shoot. But at least the Altima gets 32 mpg even loaded down like that.
August 7, 2004, 03:10 PM
I once ran about 200 yards or so (ran walked jogged) with 12 M16A2s in my hands and on me, but it wasn't fun and they were the only thing I was carrying.
Have your primary rifle, lots and lots of ammo, some small minor spare parts and a pistol with ammo. Jog a lot.
August 8, 2004, 04:32 PM
My little Suzuki 650 motorcycle makes more power than your diesel!! But I've got to admit, carrying non-handguns on the motorcycle is a bit, ummm, tricky.
:D I was thinking the same thing. My aprilia has a 1:3 HP-to-weight ratio, 3 second 0-60, does 10 second quarter miles, and gets 35-40 mpg!.... Now we're taking escape and evasion strategies!
.... and longarms can be carried with the right luggage.
BTW, I sold my SV last year. I really miss that bike.
August 8, 2004, 09:55 PM
From "How much is it worth" (http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerusd/)
oil would need to be ~$75 per barrel to equal 1980-1981.
Alternative, biodiesel. Upside - exhaust smells like french fries :D
August 8, 2004, 11:17 PM
I'm running with one of my AR's and I'll carry 7 more pounds of ammo versus another weapon. Ammo is equally as important as the weapon.
I'll use the STI Edge with high caps for emergencies.\
Other than that:
1 good knife.
I'd prefer a good on/off road motorcycle to a car in SHTF. Off road capability (and easy to get past long lines of backed up cars).
August 8, 2004, 11:20 PM
1 long gun, 1 handgun is about it. I tried a 16 a 45 and a M79 for a long time, gave up the 16 as I had to have the 79.
By the way a 203 strapped on a 16 don't cut it.
sumpnz hit the nail on the head in the comparison on euro gas. The tax on
gas over there is over 80% of the pump price.
Makes for pretty expensive gas.
As for T. Stahls commentary on lack of economy in US model Autos, he should be aware that ours compare very favorably with comparable euro models. There are very few euros comparable with US vehicles as we do not have really use the same classes of vehicle.
No Renault 3's over here and no Pickups over there. Within comparable classes, US vehicles are significantly heavier than thier euro counterparts as their stuff does not meet our safety standards without significant modification, such as the addition of door stiffeners, US spec safety glass,
airbags etc. Apples and oranges.
August 8, 2004, 11:47 PM
1917 and 60 rounds.
I could carry that all day if I had to.
August 9, 2004, 02:52 AM
I wouldn't want to carry more than 1 rifle. Where I would be running? Who knows, I would most likely be dead before the end of the day anyways if we really had to fight from our back yards.
Concerning gasoline. I recently purchased a VW Golf TDI for $19.150 all said and done. Diesel costs about $.10 less than regular and i'm getting gas mileage in the upper 40's. Although my TDI makes only 100 hp the 177 fl lbs of torque really make up for it.
VW disels are flying off the lot as fast as VW can make them, I waited 2 months for mine. Besides that diesels are usually less maintainence, longer lasting, better gas mileage, and oil changes are only every 10k miles.
Not only is the Golf a safe car, it has plenty of room for guns and ammo :D
August 9, 2004, 12:59 PM
Well, if we want to play the game of what can you do for economy (both fuel and vehicle price) take a look at the Honda Civic HX. 36/44 mpg city/highway and a market price of $13.2K (add a grand or so for sales tax and registration). And it's probably pretty close to the Golf in terms of cargo capabilities, and it makes more horsepower (though with less torque). Other big plus - you don't have to search around for a gas station that has diesel.
Now, I'm not a Honda freak. They're just convienient examples. Both the Honda and VW will probably be able to carry similar amounts of guns and ammo.
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