[David]

Amazing story:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-nypdshoot0720,0,7288561.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines

Retired NYPD officer kills carjacker

By The Associated Press

July 19, 2004, 7:53 AM EDT

A retired New York police officer shot and killed one of five assailants who forced his Cadillac to a halt during a carjacking attempt Sunday.

The retired officer was charged with illegal possession of a handgun after shooting the assailant with a .40-caliber pistol he drew from a holster, city police spokesman Lt. Derek Glenn said.

Police withheld the retired officer's name, citing an ongoing investigation. Glenn said the officer was self-employed as a bodyguard, specializing in protection for company executives, and was licensed to carry a gun in New York but not New Jersey.

The shooting happened on a bridge on Haynes Avenue, a local road that feeds into Routes 1 and 9.

The retired officer was on his way to pick up a client at Newark Liberty International Airport about 12:45 p.m., driving west on the bridge when the assailants, riding in a sport-utility vehicle, cut off his car, Glenn said.

Two gunmen then exited the SUV and ordered the man out of his Cadillac, while a third jumped into the vehicle's driver seat and began to pull away.

The retired officer then drew his gun and fired five times after one of the gunmen took aim at him. The gunman was struck in the chest and later pronounced dead at the scene.

Police were still trying to identify the dead man Sunday night, Glenn said. A small-caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.

The other gunman jumped back into the SUV, and all the suspects fled in that vehicle after abandoning the Cadillac at the end of the bridge.

They remained at large Sunday night and were considered armed and dangerous, authorities said.

Glenn said the officer retired from the New York Police Department in 1982 after 10 years on the force.

Numerous motorists were on the road at the time of the shooting, and investigators urged any witnesses to call city police or the Essex County prosecutor's office.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

******
:cuss: :what: :cuss:

[R.H. Lee]

:banghead: :barf:

[blades67]

I hope he has a great lawyer.:uhoh:

[Andrew Rothman]

This is why we need national CCW reciprocity.

[M2 Carbine]

Well I was wrong.
When I saw the thread I figured it was the communist state on our western coast.:fire:

And we keep fooling ourselves that there is a 2nd Ammendment.
:cuss:

[R.H. Lee]

When I saw the thread I figured it was the communist state on our western coast.

Apology accepted. Have you seen the list of firearms not available to subjects of the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts:

http://www.fsguns.com/fsg_information.html

The East Coast is way redder than the West Coast. If I get caught carrying here, and the firearm is registered to me, it's only a misdemeanor.

[thumbtack]

I hope he has a good lawyer also. :mad:

[TechBrute]

I guess when he retired, he was reduced to commoner status like the rest of us. Anyway, glad the guy's ok. At least he's alive to pay his legal bills.

[carpettbaggerr]

I'd like to see a defense based on Article IV of the Constitution. And he shouldn't have gotten out of the car. If he'd run the gunmen down, he might still be free.

[cracked butt]

Wow, those people live in a complete Bizarro world.:barf:

[R.H. Lee]

Screw NJ. I lived there for awhile in the late 60's. It was a hellhole even then.

[Jim K]

I presume the carjackers were freed and congratulated after paying $10,000 each to the Governor, who is not corrupt, he says.

Jim

[Dot_mdb]

I live in NJ. Soon to live in FL. I used to pass that intersection everyday on the way home from work.

You have to understand that NJ can never allow anyone to defend themselves with a gun and not be charged. If they did that then their whole gun control/registration/NO CCW thing would start to fall apart. If you defend your life with a gun YOU WILL BE CHARGED in PRNJ.

And that plus the unbelievable high property taxes in this state is the reason I am escaping to the free state of Florida.

Bill

[Tharg]

My friend from the military grew up in jersey... I'd always dog him that every man should know how and prefer a stick shift to an automatic transmission in thier cars... (he doesn't know how to drive a stick)

He says he never learned how because its illegal in Jersey to own/drive a car w/ a stick shift because its regulated by law that you have one hand on the wheel and one hand w/ your gun in it for driveby's and carjackings...

wow....

J/Tharg!

[David]

I think that some government officials would rather see a news headline like this:

"... An Unarmed Retired NYPD Officer Murdered By Armed Carjackers -- Film At Eleven ..."

:rolleyes: :cuss: :rolleyes:

Just my 2 cents...

[Glamdring]

I thought they passed the national carry for off duty and retired LEOs this month?

[Dot_mdb]

I think the new law requires 15 years of service.

Bill

[Rabbi]

I hitchhiked from Pemberton, New Jersey to South Philadelphia back in 1967 and now realize I was probably safer in one of America's hardest ghettoes than I was in PRNJ.

Brothers, leave!

Rabbi

[Dienekes]

"An unjust law is no law"--Thomas Aquinas, following Augustine.

We have a big problem with this. Firearms laws per se are "mala prohibita" or "just because". "Mala in se" crimes are things bad in themselves. They are very different things. Just because politicians and demagagogues can't keep them straigh doesn't mean they're the same. They aren't.

I have no problem at all in following the dictates of common sense as regards where, when, and how I carry. Lawfully if possible, but I reserve the right to make up my own mind.

Because I have strong opinions on this and Roe v. Wade, I expect to become an "enemy of the people" somewhere along the line.

So be it.

[stealthmode]

.......................................................................i dont know what to say

[Wiley]

One of the better laws in GA is that a carjacker is fair game.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

On a retired cop's salary, he'll never be able to pay off the judge.

He should stay away from Nappen, who makes a big noise but loses cases. I have a couple of names given to me by retired Port Authority LEOs, but they ain't cheap. ($25K minimum retainer.)

This year, I was looking at my NRA self-defense insurance policy and wondering whether it was worth the $250 annually. Now I know the answer to that one.

- pdmoderator

[Waitone]

The retired officer then drew his gun and fired five times after one of the gunmen took aim at him. Just amazing.

[Marko Kloos]

It's easier to get out of jail than out of a morgue.

[Taipei Personality]

I thought they passed the national carry for off duty and retired LEOs this month?

It goes into effect six months after being signed into law.

[WT]

I'll bet that the charges against the retired LEO are dropped.

It is not true that one cannot use a firearm in NJ to defend one's life in a legitimate self defense situation. An number of such incidents have occurred - Paterson, Green Brook, Scotch Plains, Atlantic City, Jersey City, etc. None of the above were charged with any wrongdoing.

Two experienced and successful self defense attorneys in Northern NJ include Galantucci in Hackensack and Critchley in Morristown.

[Nightfall]

NJ has some nice corn.

That's about it.

[0luke1]

Please don't forget about the tomatos. They're very good too.

Perhaps the prosecutor thought the small caliber handgun was a throw down.

[shooter1]

Wonder how the very recent passage of Act 214 into law will affect the outcome of this event????
str1

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't know what all the complaining is about. The guy was a retired cop. He knew the law and knew the rammifications. He made a decision to carry a gun illegally and knowing full well that if something went wrong, he would likely face charges for the weapon. He had the background and training to weigh the potential outcomes of carrying versus not carrying and how to respond should he need to produce a gun..

[shooter1]

He's still alive! I don't think he made a bad decision. Act 214 was just signed into law allowing retired LEOs to carry pretty much anywhere. I think that will be a factor in this case. That said, I think there should be a nationwide CCW permit.
str1

[Blue Line]

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[whm1974]

I don't know what all the complaining is about. The guy was a retired cop. He knew the law and knew the rammifications. He made a decision to carry a gun illegally and knowing full well that if something went wrong, he would likely face charges for the weapon. He had the background and training to weigh the potential outcomes of carrying versus not carrying and how to respond should he need to produce a gun..

If you had to go though a dangours area to go to work or home everyday, you wouldn't give some thought about having protection within reach? I'll bet you that a lot of retired cops DO carry notwithstanding what the law says.

-Bill

[WT]

I did some local research. This guy is a hero. He was issued a mere summons at the station house and then taken out for beer afterwards.

He took on 5 badguys. Killed one, wounded another, drove off the other 3. That takes BIG BRASS ONES. The BG's were driving a stolen car which was recovered with the stiff inside, gun included.

The Essex County prosecutor loves this case. He can charge the 4 remaining BG's with murder since someone died during the commission of a felony. When caught, these guys are going away for 30 years. This retired LEO took 5 rectal orifices off the street, essentially permanently.

By the way, the deceased took a single .40 cal JHP to the chest. One-shot-stop!

The retired LEO will walk. Sometimes, life is grand.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Two experienced and successful self defense attorneys in Northern NJ include Galantucci in Hackensack and Critchley in Morristown.The names I got were Alan Zegas (973-701-7080) and Brian Neary (201-488-0544).

Per the Port Authority retired LEO (now a prosecutor), Zegas is the best criminal defense attorney in PRNJ. I carry both names and numbers in my wallet. (And Nappen's card too, in case I want to clean a slide at the range. :D )

- pdmoderator

[cerberus]

What a crappy City and we wonder why it has such high crime.:rolleyes:

[Dot_mdb]

WT,

>>It is not true that one cannot use a firearm in NJ to defend one's life in a legitimate self defense situation. An number of such incidents have occurred - Paterson, Green Brook, Scotch Plains, Atlantic City, Jersey City, etc. None of the above were charged with any wrongdoing.<<

Are you saying that in the cases you mentioned above that people were carrying illegally in NJ and used their guns to defend themselves and then were not charged with anything? Or are you saying that they defended themselves in their houses or business and then were not charged?

The fact is that if this ex-cop was not illegally carrying a weapon there is a good chance he would be dead right now. I don't carry and I drive very close to that area and if it had been me I would not have been armed.

Are you in NJ? Do you feel like it is ok to carry without a license which is almost impossible to get?

Bill

[Samurai Penguin]

The retired LEO will walk. Sometimes, life is grand.

True...but, dammit, he never should have been charged in the first place!

And if he weren't an ex-LEO, how do you think this would go down?

[jimbo]

And the headlines will read "Retired LEO foils carjackers" and "Joe Schmoe murdered by carjackers."

One law for ex-LEOs and one law for "normal" citizens does not strike me as conforming to the intent of the Constitution's framers.

Can I go through the police acadamy, quit in one year and then be ex-LEO so I can legally carry as well?:fire:

[Iron Mike]

I live in New Jersey and have done so my entire 56 years .I used to drive through some very rough areas to get to work.I had a VW golf at the time of the Rodney King riots I believe the law in NJ states,a firearm must be locked in the trunk and the ammo must be kept in the passenger compartment,well I had my Sig 220 in a case in the hatchback area with the rear seat removed and three full mags in the glove box. Im not sure I was in compliance, but like a famous lawman once said If one man is to be burried and the other tried, I'll be standing before the judge.three more years till retirement and I'm outta here

[Dot_mdb]

I'm not an attorney but I am pretty sure that loaded mags = loaded gun in NJ.

I think you can place the ammo and the guns in the trunk but they have to be in separate containers. I don't think the containers have to be locked but they have to be "secured" which is not the same thing.

Bill

[Iron Mike]

Oh!....well that was my mistake......I kind of figured it wasn't a 100% kosher .but it did make me feel a bit more secure.

[dinosaur]

The incident happened a couple of days before the Pres. signed H.R. 218.

If I pulled up to the scene of a shooting and it went down like this one, the shooter would be my hero. :) Unfortunately it's not the guy who does the paperwork that makes the decision. It has to go to the D.A. who has the final say.

Those of you who've posted here for awhile know it's not like in the movies. There's a reaction for every action, even when you're 1000% right the legal battles are far from over. The Rev. Al or whoever the activist du jour is today has to make an appearance. It's as inevitable as popping a zit, the puss has to come out.:barf:

[DevilDog]

This is an example why I like the idea of a law (state or federal) that a person cannot be charge for a weapon violation involving an incident where that weapon was used in self-defense and the incident was not instigated by that same person.

Any holes in that idea where a real criminal could use it to their advantage?

[TechBrute]

This is an example why I like the idea of a law (state or federal) that a person cannot be charge for a weapon violation involving an incident where that weapon was used in self-defense and the incident was not instigated by that same person. It was my understanding that something along those lines already exists, it's just never used. I don't know the fancy latin name for the concept, but I'm sure someone else can jump in with some help.

[OH25shooter]

Incidents like this make me want to move to Montana. Somewhere in a nice quite wooded area. Close to the mountains and big blue sky. Near a stream with lots of deer and birds singing. WAKE UP! You live in the city and this will never happen. :cuss:

[mondocomputerman]

DevilDog, I like that idea.

[Footer]

Are you in NJ? Do you feel like it is ok to carry without a license which is almost impossible to get?


One law for ex-LEOs and one law for "normal" citizens does not strike me as conforming to the intent of the Constitution's framers

To add my $.02......
As I type this at work, I am less then two miles from where this all went down. As much as I would love to be able to carry and be in a position to defend myself in such a situation, I choose not to. Not because I don't feel it is necessary but because it is illegal. No "normal" citizens here in NJ are able to obtain carry permits, in fact, it takes close to 45 days just to get a purchase permit !! For 365 days a year I would have to sweat it out worrying whether I would be pulled over for some traffic violation (which they do here regularly for no reason at all) and then be arrested for illegally carry a weapon. Unfortunately, as Jimbo puts it, us "normal" citizens are not allowed the same leeway as some others here in NJ. As much as I'm glad to hear the outcome of this encounter, he should have no rights afforded him that aren't extended to us all.

[RON in PA]

Seems to me that this is a Bernie Goetz situation, a rightous self-defense, but an illegal weapons possession. The local DA will use his descretionary power depending on the noise from the masses and the media.

[shooter1]

Sadly, there has been a bit of LE resentment surfacing here in this thread, This disturbs me deeply. By far the majority of LEOs are very much in favor of civilian CCW. There is not a problem with having the good guys armed. I have heard reference to "Ordinary People" vs LEO. I submit that all of us are "Ordinary People" as we are all held to the same accountability under the law. What makes us different, is our life experiences due to the nature of our proffession. I submit that the average LEO makes more "Life or Death" decisions in a week than the average non LEO makes in a lifetime! The "Ordinary" LEO knows first hand just how fast things can go bad, and has seen these events unfold countless times. It is this experience, plus the hundreds of hours of training that seperate the "Ordinary" citizen from the "Ordinary" LEO. That is the ONLY difference. All of us would like to go home at the end of the shift! I might add that LEOs have a "fan club" as well who would like nothing better that to catch them off duty and unarmed.
str1

[Ex-Doc]

During the LA riots almost everyone with a gun had it on them. A cop friend said they saw plenty of non-gang bangers with guns in their cars and didn't bother them at all. Koreans where voting from the roof tops without an arrest. Conseal well but make ready....

[cordex]

By far the majority of LEOs are very much in favor of civilian CCW.
If this is true, LEOs should get together and have a few words with their lobbying organizations.

I'm not saying that cop lobbies and unions should all push for CCW or other pro-gun legislation, but not supporting every single anti-gun bill that comes along would be a wonderful start.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

in fact, it takes close to 45 days just to get a purchase permit !!45 days is warp speed. I had to wait 73 for my card. Many go longer before reaching for the lawyerphone. :cuss:

The statute specifies a time limit of 30 days, but Frank Lautenberg and Jim McGreasy have both demonstrated how much the law means in PRNJ when the wishes of the Democratic Party lie in the balance. :banghead:

- pdmoderator

[Wolfy]

He was licensed in NY and carrying in NJ so the LEO broke the law he should be held accountable to the law like the rest of us not taken out for drinks abd given a pat on the back.

Just for the record here are the NJ gun laws from the NRA site for all you folks that reside in FREE America. Please note NJ's Constituition DOES NOT have a provision for the right to bear arms. So we are not even entitled to this right and it could be taken away at any time this guy should have known what he was exposing himself to and if he didn't ignorance is not an excuse.

PS I forgot to include the link to the NRA State laws notice NJ citizens do not have a constitutional right to own guns:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NJ

[standingbear]

One of the better laws in GA is that a carjacker is fair game. should be like that everywhere and it should apply to everyone.

just think of the deterrant...just think of the money saved.

[Iron Mike]

Dot-mdb you said loaded mag.s =loaded gun. I'm curious, what about loaded speedloaders? any info would be appreciated......Mike

[harpethriver]

:barf:

[Dot_mdb]

Iron Mike,

I have searched through all of the material I have on my computer and I can't find a reference for loaded mags. So maybe you can transport loaded mags. I did find this at the FAQ for the NJ State Police:

A6.
Firearms shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported.

Ammunition must be transported in a separate container and locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported.If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/njsp/faq.html#firearms

I have read through pages of the laws until my head was spinning from the lawyer speak. It is obvious that the intention is to never allow a person to defend himself. And that doesn't only apply to firearms. If you live in NJ you are required by law to be a defenseless victim. :barf:

Bill

[WT]

Okay guys, more updates.

In New Jersey one CAN use an illegally possessed weaon for legitimate self defense purposes. See NEW JERSEY V RONALD J. HARMON, APPELLATE DIVISION, JUNE 21, 1985.

Secondly, I suspect many "good" people walk around packing in NJ without carry permits.

Now, the bad guys in this particular case have to look forward to the following charges:
1. Felony murder (30 full years at Trenton State Prison)
2. Attempted murder
3. Robbery and carjacking
4. Conspiracy
5. Racketeering
6. Possession of a weapon
7. Possession of a weapon for unlawful purposes
8. Illegal possesion of a weapon
9. Possession of dum-dum bullets
10. Possession of a weapon by a felon
11. Aggravated assault
12. Aggravated assault by auto
13. Aggravated assault by a firearm
14. Possession of a firearm in a motor vehicle
15. Possession of stolen car keys
16. A few other laws here and there.

Now if you were the Essex County Prosecutor who would you go after - the living 4 mutts or the Good Guy who has a mere paperwork violation?

Do you think that the Good Guy will testify against the bad guys if he gets convicted? Do you think the Prosecutor will put 4 carjackers back on the street just so he can go after the Good Guy?

The GG will probably lose his .40 cal. However, I'd chip in to buy him a new one.

[Dot_mdb]

WT,

Please give more information on that case. I have only been able to search decisions since 1995 online at the Rutgers site.

Is there an online source?

Bill

[Waitone]

Help me understand sumptin'. How come it is the BG's had the guns then proceeded to use the guns when they were violatin' sooo many state laws? Obviously something is wrong here. Existence of laws should have prevented crime.:D

[WT]

I just have a brief on the HARMON case, given to me by my lawyer when I sat down with him to review NJ laws of self defense. I do not believe it is published on the web.

Basically HARMON used an illegally possessed weapon for self defense at an amusement park in Union-Mountainside, NJ. No shots were fired and the situation was defused. Basically brandishment ..... which is not specifically covered by NJ law. However HARMON made the mistake of not retreating from the altercation as required by NJ law.

The trial judge in Elizabeth failed to tell the jury to consider self defense and the appellate court took note of it.

[Iron Mike]

Dot-mdb.... thank you for the info as well as your time.Cant wait till I'm outta here, to move to a state where a citizen with an absolutley clean record can by law protect himself and his loved ones.