Guns split the Kerry campaign


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Stebalo
August 2, 2004, 03:07 PM
http://www.thehill.com/news/072904_late/guns.aspx

They are not split on the issue of banning guns. They are just split on how vocal to be about their stance on banning guns.

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TimRB
August 2, 2004, 03:40 PM
"The bill itself is not controversial, Hamm and Hummel said, because even gun owners favor its extension. Sixty-four percent of gun-owning households and half of the NRA members polled were in favor of extending the ban, according to a recent poll conducted by the Annenberg Election Survey."

I find it *very* hard to believe that half of a *representative* sample of NRA members would be in favor of extending the ban. In fact, I flat-a$$ don't believe it; I think they're lying. I don't know about the "gun-owning households".

Tim

feedthehogs
August 2, 2004, 04:08 PM
Tim,
Believe it.
I work the guns show every month recruiting for the NRA.
When I get somebody that's says they are a member, I first ask to see their card, most will show them and are proud to be a member.

I then engage them in a conversation to see what their gun rights beliefs are.

More than half don't own AW's, don't see a need for them and feel if they give the anti gunners something, they will leave their bolt guns and shot guns alone.

I would also say 60% don't own a hand gun.

When you have a board of directors that waffle on gun rights what do you expect of the members?

What I try and tell everyone is, like the politicians who won't listen to the people because the people don't vote and let them get away with it, the same goes for the direction the NRA takes.

If enough members make their complaints heard and withhold membership dues, you can bet they will start listening.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 2, 2004, 05:19 PM
Well, I don't know how good their survey data is in that poll; but that same poll shows union members oppose the ban even more strongly than gun owners in general and NRA members. If I were John Kerry looking at an election that hinged on Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida that would scare me far away from the issue.

USAFNoDAk
August 2, 2004, 07:14 PM
The bill itself is not controversial, Hamm and Hummel said, because even gun owners favor its extension. Sixty-four percent of gun-owning households and half of the NRA members polled were in favor of extending the ban, according to a recent poll conducted by the Annenberg Election Survey.

But many of the weapons included in that poll, Uzis and AK-47s among them, have been illegal since 1981, Cox said.

And there's a big part of the problem. People asking the question of whether Americans, including gun owners and NRA members, are for banning AK47's and UZI's, are asking an irrelevant question.

In addition, the NFA '34 and the GCA '68 have done to people exactly what people who have warned about the slippery slope predicted. That is, once you ban a "type" of firearm, and the ban is not removed as being unconstitutional, then it becomes accepted by "the people" that it is perfectly within the power of the govt. to ban certain types of firearms.

This is exactly what happened back in the UK in the 20's and look where they are now. We are just a little bit behind them, but since they have virtually nowhere left to go, we will catch them at an exponentially increasing rate, especially if liberals return to power.

Once you accept that govt. can limit the types of firearms we are allowed to keep and bear, for "our own safety", we have given them the rope with which they could choose to hang us.

madcowburger
August 2, 2004, 08:22 PM
feedthehogs is too right.

I long ago lost count of the number of people sporting NRA logo caps or belt buckles or both who, when I asked where they stood on the RKBA, told me flat-out that they didn't care if all the handguns and "assault weapons" were banned, just as long as they got to keep their polished blued, walnut stocked bolt-action and slide-action and over-and-under sporting goods, and still got to go huntin' and fishin'.

I think someone coined the expression "Elmer Fuddites" to describe such people. There are a LOT of them who think all handguns are Saturday Night Specials and all self-loading service-type rifles are machine guns or terrorist weapons.:banghead:

MCB

Jim March
August 2, 2004, 08:33 PM
I personally don't own a military-pattern semi-auto and doubt I ever will - I'm just not personally interested. Not into semi-auto handguns either.

But that's ME. I fully support people's right to them.

I will note that in my progression politically into a gunnie (starting in 1997), mental support for "assault rifle" ownership (yes, note the quotes, I know it's wrong!) was one of the "last steps" along a mental journey.

Citizen CCW is actually a lot easier for people to wrap their heads around. That's one reason shall-issue CCW laws are a good "stepping stone" to further advances.

madkiwi
August 2, 2004, 08:54 PM
There are a LOT of them who think all handguns are Saturday Night Specials and all self-loading service-type rifles are machine guns or terrorist weapons

Even that is wrong- a "Saturday Night Special" is just an affordable gun. Bans on them are just a way of disarming poor people.

Not everyone can or wants to buy a $1000 Kimber just for self defense, they would appreciate a $100 revolver. And let's be honest, $100 and reliable need not be mutually exclusive in today's manufacturing world.

madkiwi

benEzra
August 2, 2004, 09:23 PM
Polls like this depend very strongly on how the question is asked. If you ask "Do you favor banning rapid-fire military weapons like the AK-47 and Uzi that out-gun police and gun down children?" you'll get more of a favorable response than if you ask, "Do you favor banning ALL firearms, regardless of type, appearance, or history of use in crime, that hold over 10 rounds?" Yet it is all over-10-round guns that the AWB bans, not military AK's and Uzi's (which are already covered under NFA '34 and FOPA '86). In fact, the purpose about the media mantra "19 named guns" seems to be to conceal the true scope of the Feinstein ban.

The minority of hunters that favor stripping the rest of us of our gun rights don't realize the precarious position they're putting themselves in. IIRC, there are ~80 million gun owners in this country and only ~16 million licensed hunters. If they throw 64 million nonhunters like my wife and I to the prohibitionists, followed by the millions of licensed hunters that also own nonhunting guns, do they REALLY think people like me are going to continue to support their little hobby?:fire:

(And I don't mean that in any way against the hunters here; I'm speaking of the ones the media searches out to put on TV, who endorse whatever the talking heads are endorsing at the moment.)

JPL
August 2, 2004, 09:30 PM
I was speaking about this with a couple of coworkers, today, and one mentioned that Kerry picked his location to promote firearms very carefully.

He claims that as a class, shotgun sport shooters, more than any other class of gunowners, don't care about firearms rights.

If he's right, what's up with that?

Foreign Devil
August 2, 2004, 09:58 PM
I just cannot believe that many or most NRA members support anythign as obviously stupid as the assault weapons ban.

We have a lot of work to do in this department.

REmind them that the definitionof "rapid fire high power assault weapon" is very flexible.

http://usgi1911.tripod.com/M1carbine/Garand-Carbine.jpg

And what about that infamous "weapon of war" the Springfield 03?

And what happens when the next John Muhammed uses a Remington 700?

madcowburger
August 3, 2004, 12:19 AM
MadKiwi,

I myself have nothing against affordable handguns, as long as they work.

What I was getting at was the gullibility of much of the public -- even or especially the huntin'-'n'-fishin', sporting goods-owning public -- their willingness to accept and use media propaganda terms like "Saturday Night Specials" and "cop-killer bullets," and to assume that what the 1994 AWB banned was machine guns, or at the very least "semi-automated attack weapons" and "insidious" "high-capacity ammunition feeding devices" with "Just one purpose: to kill as many people as quickly as possible" by "spray-firing from the hip." :rolleyes: With friends like them we don't even need enemies like Komrade Kerry and Kompany.

MCB

outofbattery
August 3, 2004, 12:51 AM
Not everyone who shoots and/or is in the NRA shares the average THR view on RKBA . There are many hunters , trap , rifle and even pistol target shooters I know that either support the ban or would not care if it were extended as it has no effect on them . I actually shoot skeet with a few Kerry voting liberals who wouldn't touch a handgun and see no reason why anyone should have one . I know that it seems bewildering to many here but not every American who is a gun owner comes close to caring about RKBA as much as they do ; there's a significant number of people who would turn their guns in tomorrow if asked and there's likewise a significant number of people who engage in other shooting disciplines that have next to no knowledge about handguns , Assault Rifles , or even the legality of ammo. There are plenty of hunters who think that Golden Sabers are "Cop Killers" and that a Bushie XM-15 is full auto . Point being is that the numbers lie : not everyone who is the NRA or who can be counted as a gun owner shares your concerns or will cast their vot with any view towards RKBA .


There isn't much sense in how many people actually vote anyway ; if I had a ten spot for every rabidly anti-abortion and anti-gay Irish Catholic staunch Liberal Democrat I know here and for every conservative in any way one could think of Yellow Dog Democrat Southern Baptist that I knew in NC,GA,SC I could probably have myself a nice vacation . It seems odd to me but there's nought queer as folk .

Shooter 2.5
August 3, 2004, 04:25 AM
There are probably a number of NRA members who don't support Assault Weapons. That has no bearing on the leadership of the NRA. The NRA has made the sunset a top priority. Anyone could notice that.

Lately there have been members of the High Road who support kerry. The High Road isn't anti-gun, is it?

Treylis
August 3, 2004, 04:53 AM
I'm glad that the GOA and the LP are out there. Sheesh.

RealGun
August 3, 2004, 08:23 AM
More than half don't own AW's, don't see a need for them and feel if they give the anti gunners something, they will leave their bolt guns and shot guns alone. - feedthehogs

People are interested in guns and then the NRA for various reasons, not necessarily those we would personally endorse. But this only illustrates why they should join some gun ownership advocacy organization and be exposed to a little pro-gun rhetoric based in facts. I doubt if anyone in the know was very savvy until they hung around for awhile. No one knows much until they go to school or somehow expose themselves to information.

I would rather see NRA focus on sport shooting, everyman interests, and leave the hard core legislative stuff to specialty organizations.

Both Kerry and Bush are currently mentioning "hunting" in reference to gun ownership, which marginalizes other uses of guns that have a lot more to do with US government and citizenship. Everyone seems to be desperately trying to make "hunting" the only politically correct use of a gun. They also imply repeatedly that gun ownership requires some popular justification, leaving anything else subject to legislation...never mind resolving in legal terms exactly what the Constitution says and means, the scope of its influence, and what other rights not enumerated coexist with it.

Some will hate the idea, but some States require a hunter safety course before getting a hunting license. That course could and often does include more gun information than just about hunting. Certainly in SC it includes handgun information. That would surely be a point at which "hunters" could be presented with the full spectrum of literature regarding various organizations and other information sources.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 3, 2004, 08:49 AM
Well, the NRA had 4.2 million members in 2000. It is inevitable that if you get large enough to wield serious political power that you are also going to have some diversity in how people view "reasonable restrictions" on gun rights.

Personally, if some trap shooter who doesn't like semi-autos wants to join the NRA and support an organization that will help me fight to keep them, then I'll take his support even if he isn't fully informed on the subject. I can always try and educate him later (or even better give them a semi-auto rifle and a full mag and let them have some fun).

The RKBA movement is still a long way from being big enough that we can afford to turn people away for lack of ideological purity.

BB62
August 3, 2004, 09:18 AM
Feedthehogs,

"...I then engage them in a conversation to see what their gun rights beliefs are.

More than half don't own AW's, don't see a need for them and feel if they give the anti gunners something, they will leave their bolt guns and shot guns alone..."

I would tell them about **********'s 3 day waiting period that is now up to, what, 15 days? And I would tell them about Australia, Canada, and the UK - heck if this is your experience with gun owners, I would go so far as to print up a one page document with facts (and www sources if you want) about the REAL aims of those intent on doing away with those eeevillll AW's, "high caps", and handguns (which of course are only used against good people).

Just my 2 cents.


BB62

halvey
August 3, 2004, 09:55 AM
I just cannot believe that many or most NRA members support anythign as obviously stupid as the assault weapons ban. Because the anti's successfully redefined a rifle to be an assault weapon.

And we even bought it.

Coronach
August 3, 2004, 10:37 AM
1. As stated, it depends on how the question is asked. Not surprisingly, "they" ask the question in a way that can be misleading to someone who does not know the intricacies of federal law and weapons nomenclature. "We" tend to ask the question in a way that mentions these things, or at least alludes to the fact that actual machine guns are already heavily restricted.

2. Yup:More than half don't own AW's, don't see a need for them and feel if they give the anti gunners something, they will leave their bolt guns and shot guns alone. And this will hold true until some idiot notes that hey...I can shoot a more deadly projectile a much greater distance with more accuracy with this scoped deer rifle than I could with an AR...or some sicko realizes that a 12 guage kills schoolchildren dead right there. :(

And then the deer hunters and the duckhunters will join us on the gallows. Hang together, or hang seperately.

Mike

Don't Tread On Me
August 3, 2004, 12:14 PM
There is nothing I hate more than a person who is willing to give away rights because they don't use them.


This is why America is going straight down the tubes. The vast majority of Americans only care about what they *think* they use as a right....when everyone does that, and their uses are limited - the good ole government plays divide and conquer and takes ALL rights away, piece by piece.


A key example of that is you average bolt-action loving shotgun type moron who thinks his precious POS is sporting and my AR should be banned.


Another example is when I hear a gay person make an anti-gun statement. When I hear that, I usually let them know that their lifestyle should be banned. Hey, the golden rule, right?

Same with moron TV and radio personalities who didn't have any free speech rights taken away at ALL, yet they cried foul as they lost their jobs for being so opnionated. They are the same idiots preaching for others to lose rights.


When it all boils down, most of America is selfish and self centered and ignorant and only cares about the here and now, and only about what they have and can use.

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