What's wrong with people who are bashing .45's?


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Rival
December 29, 2002, 11:36 AM
Yesterday I had yet another friend of mine asking me why I got that old piece of junk (referring to my new full size Springfield Loaded). These guys keep telling me that .45 isn't gonna hit anything past 25 yards and that I better spend money of them newer 9mm guns out there (Sig, HK, Glock and such).

***?! I have nothing against the 9mm. In fact I really like it. But these guys really piss me off each time this conversation takes place :mad:

I guess I have to take them to the range sometime...

Sorry guys, I just had to let some steam out...

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Dan Morris
December 29, 2002, 11:45 AM
LOL, last time I shot one, NRA Outdoor Bullseye Matches are still shot at 50 yds and 25 yds. You see a LOT of Xrings at 50.
Dan
:D

Outlander
December 29, 2002, 11:47 AM
I think you'll find that lots of 1911 owners feel there is no real gun except a .45 1911 and because of that attitude many people like to put them down as dinosaurs as much as possible.
BTW ... my wife just gave me a pair of stippled Nill grips for my Springfield "loaded" model ... they're beautiful, with a nice palm swell that fattens the grip so it's a real handful and VERY comfortable to shoot.

10-Ring
December 29, 2002, 12:06 PM
Trolls I tell ya, they're all trolls! I have prescribed to the big bullet, big hole theory for a while & the 45 acp has served me quite well.

craigz
December 29, 2002, 12:09 PM
Maybe these guys would like to come to my club and meet Warren, a guy who routinely hits a 12-inch gong at 200 yards with his S&W 625.

Redlg155
December 29, 2002, 12:19 PM
It's one thing for folks to talk trash at home. Another to talk it at the range.

Invite them over for a freindly shoot and see if they don't change their minds.

Good Shooting
RED

ruger357
December 29, 2002, 12:21 PM
Love mine. Colt 1991a1 and Kimber ultra carry II

sm
December 29, 2002, 12:35 PM
I grew up around 1911 style, my first handgun I bought was a Colt Combat Commander out of HS in '73.

I grew up with the 45 ACP, heck a lot of people don't grow up with any gun input nowadays. So if you don't want to show ignorance-bash. Some grew up during the wondernine years-bash. "Condemnation before investigation"-perhaps. Exposure to media...Me all the army shows, "Combat" , and John Wayne Movies.

I guess its the 'Ford vs Chevy" thing...always will be. I don't personally bash gun choices of others, gun has to fit shooter IMO

There are guns that flat don't fit me, I personally don't like, I may politely share this with an owner of said gun...but for instance, if they can save my bacon with that gun they shoot well, by all means...save my bacon. BUT remember "my antiquated slabside" might do the same for you someday.

rick458
December 29, 2002, 12:37 PM
take em to the range and shoot a little steel with them

pogo2
December 29, 2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Rival
hese guys keep telling me that .45 isn't gonna hit anything past 25 yards and that I better spend money of them newer 9mm guns out there (Sig, HK, Glock and such).
These guys are just pulling your chain, and their comments are of no consequence.

As others have pointed out, the .45 will hit targets well beyond 25 yards if you allow for the drop of the bullet and don't have too much crosswind.

98% of the use of the .45 ACP is at target ranges of 25 yards or less, or in self defense where the range may be 20 feet or less. If you really wanted to shoot at the longer ranges you would probably pick a rifle instead of the .45.

Fiveshooter
December 29, 2002, 01:57 PM
We set the 4" size clay birds on the berm at our favorite informal plinking range The distance we shoot from is 60yds. The targets are no challenge for any well made 1911 style in .45 ACP providing the shooter is competent. You should do just fine with your Springfield out to and even past 50yds. I think your .45 bashing friends are pulling your chain or they don't know much about guns.:D

guy sajer
December 29, 2002, 02:07 PM
Talk is cheap . In the end it is only talk . I wouldn't let it get you down . People that try and talk down to you are usually trying to cover up their own inadequacy .

If you must feel the need to defend yourself , then invite them to the range for a lesson .

MP-44
December 29, 2002, 02:19 PM
The 9mm lost its appeal to me after the hi-cap ban. I hate the thought of 6 factory mags costing as much as the gun. :mad:

JohnBT
December 29, 2002, 02:23 PM
"What's wrong with people who are bashing .45's?"

They weren't raised right, or maybe they were dropped as a child.

John

chaim
December 29, 2002, 02:26 PM
I'm guessing they got that from two places.

In general, the conventional wisdom seems to be that 25yds is the maximum effective range for any combat gun, but what does this mean? It means that you are using any typical example (not one tricked out). It means the guy behind the trigger is an average police or military recruit who often never touched a gun until he got there and only has that (limited) training and experience the police or military gave him/her. It means that person and that gun should be able to consistently hit a man sized target out to 25yds. Thing is, just about every service type pistol and revolver in just about all calibers would meet this definition- it isn't anything one can hold against a .45acp generally or a 1911 specifically. I think the reason people tend to feel this way is that the 1911 (a .45acp platform obviously) was the military sidearm for so long so people just took it as gospel that the 25yd effective combat range was all this gun and cartridge are capable of. Yet in capable hands just about any decent factory gun is capable of more (get a custom or semi-custom and look out).

The other reason is that the 1911 was the military sidearm for so long. Most of those that were in service when it was dropped by the military were made during (or sometimes before) WWII. These were really old guns that in many cases had simply been shot out (keep in mind that military guns can see a lot of use and tend to be somewhat abused). Since for so many shooters their military experience in the 60's, 70's or 80's was their only experience with either a 1911 or a .45acp they formed their opinions of it from that.

Remember, today you are seeing something similar with the newer Beretta 92. The M92 hasn't been around for the accuracy to suffer that much from military abuse. However, what by all accounts is one of the most reliable guns in existance is often seen as a dog by those in the military because their issue sidearm is a POC due to the abuse it gets from military use.

45Badger
December 29, 2002, 05:25 PM
I'm with JohnBT! Something is very, very wrong with those folks.

I've tried to broaden my horizons, but keep coming back to big, fat, slow bullets. Nothing compares to the nice boom of my 1911s in .45. Those snappy little kalibers are as annoying as mosquitoes!

Kevlarman
December 29, 2002, 05:36 PM
Most of the shooters I know use 9mm because they can carry a lot more ammo. Of course, with California's highcap ban, their point is moot. They have 10 rounds of 9mm, I have 10 rounds of .45.

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 05:37 PM
What's wrong with people who are bashing .45's?Same thing that's wrong with anybody who bashes something they don't own, understand, or appreciate. That goes for 9mm bashers, Glock bashers, SmartCarry bashers, Ford bashers, etc.

Bashing anything or anybody just ain't fittin'...!

As me ol' Mammy said "If you don't have anything nice to say, STFU!"

Wakal
December 29, 2002, 05:46 PM
Insecurity.

If there was a better design in the whole wide world, then you can bet that the ubershooters of the IPSC would be using it. At least when talking about a combination of absolute reliablilty, accuracy, and consistency goes.

The heat of real competition separates the slag from the base metal. Oddly enough, the same basic design the old guard started with, way back in the day, is still used thirty years later. Weird. Must be a Browning thing :b



Alex

Gmac
December 29, 2002, 05:54 PM
They've been watching too much tv!!! Both my EAA Witneess & my Ruger Bisley are much more accurate than I am . Ask them if they'd rather be hit by a tackhammer or an 8lb. sledge,that should open their eyes.

Double Naught Spy
December 29, 2002, 06:24 PM
Well, at least you didn't get the stupid story about how the .45 acp is antiquated and that you should be using a modern round like the 9 mm Luger round...which is actually more antiquated than the .45 acp.

Wildalaska
December 29, 2002, 06:52 PM
Yesterday I had yet another friend of mine asking me why I got that old piece of junk (referring to my custom Hi Power). These guys keep telling me that 9mm isn't kill anything past 25inches and that I better spend money of them newer 45 guns out there (Valtro, HK, Glock and such).

***?! I have nothing against the 45. In fact I really like it. But these guys really piss me off each time this conversation takes place

I guess I have to take them to the range sometime...

Sorry guys, I just had to let some steam out...



:D :D :D :D

Shmackey
December 29, 2002, 07:03 PM
The funny thing is that Bullseye shooters not only shoot .45ACP, they shoot a light-loaded target cartridge. At 50 yards.

Better still is the fact that they can use any centerfire they want for the centerfire round, and most still use their .45s. The ones who don't use their .45s will usually use something far less potent, like .38spl or even .32.

The .45 Super loads you can shoot in a 625 or a properly prepared 1911 would probably knock your friends on their butts.

voilsb
December 29, 2002, 07:03 PM
they're confused. I only own a single handgun, a beretta 92fs. But I love the 1911 platform, and *will* get one. just not until I'm a little more financially secure.

I also plan on getting something in .40SW and probably 10mm, too. I'll probably also go .357 (both mag and sig), and maybe even down to a .32.

besides, even if it *were* true that the .45 was only good to 25yds, how far away is the baddie going to be when he dies from two .45 holes instead of 5 9mm holes? 7 yards is the number I heard most often.

quantico
December 29, 2002, 09:30 PM
Most of my guns are 45acp and I have a good number of 357 sig as well. The 9mm is the base acceptable defense round, but I prefer to start with a bigger hole in the target. The 9mm may expand... but the 45 will not shrink.

armabill
December 29, 2002, 09:45 PM
They probably don't have one and are going by hearsay. Say something untrue long enough, it becomes fact.

Take him to the range and let him shoot it.

HBAR & grille
December 29, 2002, 09:50 PM
mmmkay. .45acp is my favorite round. shoot it from a Glock regularly. no prob.


otoh, I shoot Sig. P239 or P225... so I'm used to 8 rounds.

my best bud handed me his MkII Kimber 10. I shot it until it stopped... at about 8 rounds. He shouted at me "RACK IT!" uh, huh?

I repied, hey, it's not a SIG, to which he replied "RECOVER, you *********!"

uh, what?...

the bottom of the story is that he thought I was making fun of his practiced ability to recover from a FTF... but I wasn't aware I was shooting an 11 shot 1911. oop.

otoh, I guess I'm not practiced in recovering in a FTF. Funny experience, and good lesson for both of us.

HSMITH
December 29, 2002, 10:04 PM
Give me a box stock "shot out" POC 1911 and give those misguided fools whatever they want in a super duper 9mm, we will head off to the range and see what shakes out.

A real shooter that talks down to another mans choice in guns is so far and few between that you could put big money on this bet.

I like to shoot 9mm, it is cheap and recoil is light. Nothing wrong with the 9mm, the BHP and the M9 are darn fine guns in my opinion. For my house gun it will be 45, and only cause something bigger that I can control is not available:D

I was a Navy armorer. I had 26 1911A1 pistols in my inventory, NOT ONE of them would not shoot inside of 6" at 25 yards, NOT ONE. Most were in the 3.5" to 4" range, a couple at 6" and a couple at 2.5". Hit a man at 50 yards? Easily, with any of them.

The last guy that talked down to my 45 got his gong (maybe 14" across?) dented all to heck at 40 yards by ME, while he assaulted the ground and the backstop. He hit one in 30, I hit 14 out of 14, the challenge was two mags and see who gets the most hits. He won't talk to me anymore, and he leaves his gong in the car when I am shooting. No, I did not tell him that if we moved it out to 100 yards or a little further that his gun would have a distinct advantage either:D When he learns how to shoot and looses the attitude I might.

Bob Locke
December 29, 2002, 11:14 PM
These guys keep telling me that .45 isn't gonna hit anything past 25 yards and that I better spend money of them newer 9mm guns out there (Sig, HK, Glock and such).
They're speaking from a position of ignorance. It's really just that simple. No one who knows diddly-poo about firearms bashes the .45 ACP for it's lack of accuracy past 25 yards.

My particular .45 ACP platform is a Glock 21, but I've shot plenty of 1911's and know I can get COM hits out to 50 yards with all but the worst of them.

Schuey2002
December 29, 2002, 11:29 PM
:D

They have .45 caliber ENVY !! :D

Tamara
December 29, 2002, 11:34 PM
"One true sword-ers" of any stripe (.45, Glock, 1911, 9mm, whatever) should have your pity, not your scorn. ;)

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 11:36 PM
Well said, Tamara! :)

isaidme
December 29, 2002, 11:42 PM
Have your friends stand 30yards out with their palms up and open,then put a can in each hand!:D

91101
December 30, 2002, 12:01 AM
The answer to your question is ignorance! Or maybe thay don't like the fact that yours is bigger than thiers :D The fact it that I'd rather have a .22 in my hands than nothin' when the bad guy shows up.

Michael

45-auto
December 30, 2002, 01:24 AM
Well, there's not much observance of the old rule about minding your own business these days.

I personally don't care for the 9mm. I've heard about too many cases where people absorbed a whole lot of 9mm slugs and kept moving.

But, if 9mm rings YOUR gong, go right ahead.

If you like guns, chances are I'd like you.

And I really don't care about what you pack.

And your opinion of my favorite round is, in my view, not really material.

chieftain
December 30, 2002, 04:46 AM
Interesting thread, several issues rolled in to one.

Not a damn thing wrong with the 45acp

now lets talk about the platform called the 1911 jammamatic.

Why do you folks tink for 70 years the police stuck with the revolvers? one word, reliability.

I think the 1911 is a great target and play gun, some folks are even using them for serious social work. But the fact is unless it is a psuedo custom or custom pistol and very expensive, it won't work properly or not for long. I am sure there are some execptions to the rule.

By the way a guy earlier was stating that the 1911 was still going strong in competition, yup real custom 38super guns!

I got rid of my 1911 in Viet Nam and carried a S&W 38 Revolver, unlike my buddies 1911, it went bang every time! I was just trying to get home alive. Choose the best tool for the job at the time. As a Marine grunt I could not afford a Hi power, so I carried the Smith. No problem.

Most of the A teams I ran into in Laos and North Western Viet Nam were carring Hi powers!

When Smith came out with the model 66 I traded my 21/2" 19 (this was a mistake) for a 3" model 66 and in the late 80's or early 90's when the became available i had night sights put on it.

Didn't find a Semi Auto I would trust until 1992. And that is a story unto it's self.

So flame away

Fred

guy sajer
December 30, 2002, 08:58 AM
No reason for that .
You made a logical decision based on experience , not assumption .

Others here are convinced that their 1911's are reliable and make their decision based on their own experiences .

As far as the police sidearm revolver vs auto debate goes , I'm not going to argue or debate . Only throw out another opinion . My feelings are that it was based on the cost of the weapon , but possibly more important , the training aspect . The revolver is much easier to train a new recruit to operate as compared to a single action auto .

Mitch

Bottom Gun
December 30, 2002, 09:12 AM
The people putting down the .45 probably never had one or never had one that would shoot.

BHP9
December 30, 2002, 09:24 AM
These guys keep telling me that .45 isn't gonna hit anything past 25 yards and that I better spend money of them newer 9mm guns out there (Sig, HK, Glock and such).

Boy thats a real hoot. Tell those guys to come to an NRA bullseye match shot at 50 yards and observe what caliber and type of weapon is being used. I seriously doubt if you will see any other weapon except the 1911 chambered for the .45 acp and they will all be shooting 2 inch groups offhand at 50 yards.

Ask the boys if they can shoot this well with their weapons. Facts are they probably can't come close, either because of skill or because of the accuracy of the 9mm weapons that they are using.

Not that the 9mm is an inaccurate cartridge. It is very accurate, its just that there are very few stock weapons out there that shoot as well as the .45 bullseye guns. I have even seen a lot of completely stock 1911's out shoot the garden variety out of the box 9mm's.

Kevinch
December 30, 2002, 09:48 AM
I must be of a different breed than most of you :confused:

I could care less what anyone thinks of my choice of weapon, be it cartridge fired or the tool that launches it.

At the very least, it would be the last thing that upsets me - too much other stuff to be concerned with to worry about what Cowboy Joe thinks of my sidearm choice.

But - to each his own. Personally, of the 10 different cartridges I have handguns chambered for 9x19 isn't one of them - and if it ever is, will be because I buy a clean Hi-Power just because I always wanted one.

I have multiple .45ACP pistols, & need to get a .45 revolver. Love that round!

cardboardkiller
December 30, 2002, 11:24 AM
I love the .45 and have a couple, but don't be mad when I blow by you at a match with my 38 Super. :D

9x19
December 30, 2002, 05:30 PM
It's a simple case of the: "What I like is good... what I don't like is bad... and that should go for everbody!" mentality.


:p

Buy what you like, shoot what you're competent with, and carry what you're confident in.... I do.

VaughnT
December 30, 2002, 05:57 PM
I had to endure some ribbing at my last Qual shoot in NC. The instructor had the ubiquitous Glock 9/40 and the others had Rugers, Smiths, etc. I was the only one using a Colt .45 and they all laughed at the weight or ancient design.

Of all the folks there to qualify (remember, this was job-related stuff, not some like-to-have game), I was the only one to show up with a full shooting bag that contained everything I might need to repair a breakage, or just clean and lube. And, yes, they were quick to say that I needed all that stuff because I was carrying a dinosaur.

I brought my own ammunition. I laughed at everyone as they laughed at me. I picked on their tactical tupperware and didn't fault the instructor for carrying a Glock. "No, Sir, I don't fault anyone for carrying a glock. Heck, when I'm an old man, I'll probably need something easier to carry, too." :)

After two days of classroom ribbing, we hit the range. Standing, kneeling, prone. Strong hand, weak hand. Reloads, no reload. Lights on, lights off. Time limits short.

All that talk. Who scored a perfect 500/500? Who was the fastest? I guess I'll stick with my girl....you can keep you wondernines or whatever. :D

HS/LD
December 30, 2002, 06:29 PM
What's wrong with people who are bashing .45's?

Well I thought that was pretty obvious they are stupid.

Regards,
HS/LD

nascarnhlnra
December 30, 2002, 07:21 PM
They all have caliber envy ! :D I'd bet none have offered to stand at say 30 yards to find out. LOL

PCRCCW
December 30, 2002, 09:14 PM
Arrogance, Ignorance, Inexperience, Immaturity....and just plain stupid at times :D :banghead:

Shoot well

Jim Higginbotham
December 30, 2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Rival
Yesterday I had yet another friend of mine asking me why I got that old piece of junk (referring to my new full size Springfield Loaded). These guys keep telling me that .45 isn't gonna hit anything past 25 yards and that I better spend money of them newer 9mm guns out there (Sig, HK, Glock and such).
<snip>

One would be tempted to say that folks of this ilk have an inferiority complex. However, considering the lack of knowledge evident in the statement, they are probably just inferior:)

There are folks that *zero* their .45 autos at 75 yards you know (2.5" high at 25 yards, 3.5" high at 37 yards and 5" low at 100 - but who's counting).

Cheers,
Jim Higginbotham

chieftain
December 30, 2002, 11:17 PM
Folks,

Please expain to me why, when I express my personal observations and known unreliability of the 1911 platform that you folks think I am attacking the 45acp.

Please, stick to the subject. I think the 45 is a fine round in a reliable platform.

It is either the 1911 giving the 45 a bad name, or folks trying to justify the 1911 giving it a bad name. These are two seperate and unrelated arguments. Please don't get confused.

Hell in Sykes and Fairbairns book they cleary recommended that the single action auto's of the day have their safety pinned, so that it could not be used.

Remember the most frequent FTF in a single action Auto is:

FAILURE TO RELEASE SAFETY!

By the way, they stated that they didn't see much difference in the stopping power of any of the calibers they used, they did prefer the Auto's higher capacity. And if I remember correctly felt it pointed more naturally.

Remember these folks were REAL GUNFIGHTING PEOPLE!

Any way, lets debate the 1911 on merits not the caliber for I see that as a non-debate.

You folks are right anyone who would get in front of any caliber at 30yards is nuts.

Good Luck

Fred

cardboardkiller
December 30, 2002, 11:32 PM
I've seen as many Glocks try to puke their guts out at matches as I have 1911's. There are three things that these guns had in common, poor tuning, poor upkeep or poor ammo. A lot of 1911's need some work to get them 100%, a lot don't, outside of factory ammo, a lot of Glocks won't run reloads reliable, a lot will. There are several things that make a pistol unreliable, some factory induced, some human induced. Anyone ever figure out that you see a lot of 1911's go down because there are so many out there? How many 1911's do you see that run perfectly? My guess is because they do run perfectly you don't pay them any attention. I could make the statement that the Glock 40's are the most dangerous pistols out there to use when shooting reloads, but I don't know what reloading practices the individuals were using when they had a KB. I've shot or owned nearly every type of pistol manufactured and there are problems with all of them. I don't think it is any more fair to pick on one type of handgun anymore than another, I've seen revolvers take a dump, who'd a thought? Inherently some designs work better and the 1911 is one of them when properly executed, properly tuned and properly taken care of.

Just my 2 cents.

chieftain
December 31, 2002, 12:09 AM
I agree with you Cardboardiller,

I don't carry Glocks either, for the same reason I don't carry 1911, lack of reliability.

They are better than 1911, but no they don't cut it either.

I look for a Semi approaching a revolvers level of reliablility.

AS to Glocks, I ask if it is an older Glock whether the Slam fire non-recall recall modifications have been made.

If it is an newer Glock I ask if the frame is in the group needing replacemnent during the present non recall recall.

Because of KB's, if it is a 40 or 45 I recommend replacing the barrel with an after market, I use Bar-Sto in my Glock 45's. By the way I have not heard of unusual number of KB's with the model 22. I don't know if the 357 SIG models will have this problem or not, so far it seems ok.

And subjectively I have a problem with the Glock triggers. I don't think there is a break! Just sponge!

Cardboardkiller, this isn't about being fair, this is about reliability, when machines are used to do the same thing, some will be more reliable than others. 'Just the facts mam'

In fact I believe I heard an unsubstantiated rumor that the LA SWAT has been having problems with their TRP's. I don't know whether that is true or not.

My first and most impressionistic observations of the 1911 was in combat, and I think way to many failed, and that's a fact!

If you think that is unfair, well.............

Good luck

Fred

cratz2
December 31, 2002, 12:11 AM
What's wrong with people who are bashing .45's?

BIG BORE ENVY!

Seriously, I admit that I'm not a fan of plastic guns. A G36 is a nice small carry gun but for recreational use, I'm all about the 1911, BHP and CZ75.

I think that for well trained civilian shooters, I'm not sure why you would want to throw smaller bullets around. And this may be a big step, but I don't care what Marshall or Sanow tell me about one shot stop percentages and the 9mm being better than 45 ACP, I'd rather throw around half inch bullets any day if needbe. I remember a quote from Jeff Cooper I believe that said that according to Marshall, that .25 ACP Glazers had a bettern stop percentage than 45 ACP ball.

Honestly, which would you rather have if a ravenous cannibal was running at you? A 25 or a 45?

cardboardkiller
December 31, 2002, 12:34 AM
My "fair" statement was meant to mean that picking out the bad eggs instead of looking at the whole doesn't give a proper sampling. I've got a friend that refuses to shoot a Benelli shotgun because he says, "All my friends that shoot them have too many jams." I don't know how many friends he has that shoot them or what their care practices are or what kind of ammo they use, but my Super Black Eagle is the most reliable shotgun I've owned, out the 7 or 8. It has jammed on me, but I was shooting low brass shells, the temperature that morning was no more than 15 degrees and I had forgotten that I put some heavy synthetic oil on it back in the summer when I was shooting skeet regularly. Was it my fault, the guns or the ammo? The gun had run several hundred rounds in hot weather with the same ammo and oil, but the sub-freezing temperatures changed the equation.

My S&W 945 is 99% 1911 parts, the slide and frame are not shaped as such, but the internals are nearly all 1911, it has never failed me in over 15,000 rounds. I shot it with a broken ejector and it ran like a $2 hooker on times square for I don't know how many rounds. How does that speak for a 1911 style pistol?

Rival
December 31, 2002, 12:50 AM
cardboardkiller, I share your opinion. Those military 1911's have been used and abused for too long IMHO before they developed reliability issues. Now people judge the entire platform by those beat up examples... :(

My SA 1911 did not give me ANY problems. Most of the ammo I shoot are reloads, and different quality reloads most of the time. That gun takes anything I feed it and goes boom every single time - I am one happy camper with this platform.

45R
December 31, 2002, 01:52 AM
Its cause they just dont know:banghead:

chaim
December 31, 2002, 03:13 AM
Please expain to me why, when I express my personal observations and known unreliability of the 1911 platform that you folks think I am attacking the 45acp.

Please, stick to the subject... Um, they are sticking to the subject. They ignored your attack on the 1911 and answered the original subject about people bashing the .45acp. You are the one off subject.

Ala Dan
December 31, 2002, 05:22 AM
Greeting's All,

I find through general conversation, that most folk's
who bash .45's can't shoot them well; due to recoil, muzzle
flip or whatever other excuse they can find.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

BogBabe
December 31, 2002, 08:51 AM
most folk's who bash .45's can't shoot them well; due to recoil, muzzle flip or whatever other excuse they can find.

I find that my Ruger .45 has less perceived recoil than my Glock .40. And it's great fun to shoot!

chieftain
December 31, 2002, 10:52 AM
Now you must attack my shooting ability?

Come on guys' speak to the facts, talk about your gun, not me, I am not the issue, the 1911 is.

Began NRA programs in the 1950's and have been a Life NRA member for almost 15 years. shot various NRA Bullseye venues, to MASTER with the Revolver, used a model 14 Smith. I now shoot IDPA with my auto's. I can't lock up my elbows any more. I qualified expert with the 1911 in the Corps and the M14 and M16.

I carried and shot a 3" model 66 with 125 Federal's into the early 1990's. If you think the 1911 in 45 has a bite/bark try one of them!

It took awhile to find a semi that was as reliable as my 66. for non- concealed carry I liked a 6" 686. I find the 1911 isn't any harder to shoot than my SIG 220 in 45. The Glock 45's are easier to shoot, but due to their unreliablility I won't carry them either, and besides their triggers truly suck. I am told they can be improved, here we go again with the custom yaya.

Those of you who think that because I think the 1911 is unreliable without custom or semi custom work I can't shoot it. What the hell does that have to do with reliability. Once again, no facts just attack. Besides, you guys state that one of the selling features of the 1911 is the ease to shoot! Come on, pick one story and stick to it.

I hope there are some reliable 1911's. After 90 years of practice and trying, someone ought to be able to build a reasonably priced one that is reliable.

I have heard Kimber was doing alright untill they went to the II models with a flakey hammer/firing pin safety. Good young friend of mine carries one of the original models on duty. His dad was a Marine Airdale of my era and loves the 1911. I truly hope he chose well.

I have heard two stories about Springfield, some are great and others suck. ***?

Everyone I know who carries 1911's have them customized for function and form. First job is a reliability package!

You folks have problems with folks who speak from experience! I didn't see just one or two fail, more like about 30% I saw in action. That's why I trusted my life to a S&W revolver. My unoffical estimate during my NRA years shooting showed the 1911's getting DNF's or the competitors working like hell between stages and strings getting and keeping their guns up and running.

Now I shoot IDPA, the percentage of guys I know shooting 1911's is about 20 percent, but represent about 70% of the FTF's. Of all the disqualified shooters, I have witness personally, five of them, three of them were 1911 shooters trying to get their guns back in action!

Now if that is bashing, you guys who don't like Lorcin pistols are you bashing them for being a POS? No, when the issue is factual that is not bashing, that is honest critique.

I am not attacking your choice of weapons, I am questioning the reliability of the 1911. I choose fighting weapons based on #1 reliability! Are there other important reasons, yup, but reliability is job one.

Thats why I choose an M14/M1A vs M16/AR15 it goes bang every time I have pulled the trigger. Both here in the states and in Viet Nam. Frankly I am thinking of using my M1 Carbine has my 'URBAN CARBINE', why, because it goes bang every time, with 15 round magazines. I don't have faith in the M16 family either!

To paraphrase the raging Cajun: "It's about 'Reliability' stupid!"

By the way, don't start accusing me of calling you fellows stupid, I don't believe that you are stupid. I believe you guys like shooting old and old style guns, ok, cool. I still enjoy shooting my revolvers which I believe are also still valid for combat, and M1 Garand, 1903 Springfield, and M1 Carbine.

Don't attack someone offering honest critque. Argue the facts.
Accept that your favorite gun has some warts. And continue to shoot them well. By the way, I think every weapon has warts and problems. I would rather shoot an ugly gun in combat, than an Unreliable one.

Good luck

Fred

Sean Smith
December 31, 2002, 12:10 PM
You know, the "1911 is unreliable" generalization is just as dumb as any other generalization. Some of my most reliable guns have, in fact, been 1911s (1 stock, 1 customized, both Colts). My most unreliable gun was a 1911 (Para-Ordinance, horrible) and my OK-but-ammo-finicky gun was a 1911, too (Kimber).

So I guess what I'm getting at is that you really never know, and can't generalize how a gun is going to perform. Even nice, "modern" factory guns have alot of variability. I've had unreliable Berettas and Glocks (many more of the former than the latter), for instance. Heck, I had a revolver that broke two firing pins in a row. You just buy a good brand and take your chances... any machine can, and will, break for somebody sometime or another.

The notion that you hear every once in a while that 1911s are just relic guns is, frankly, a bit silly. Especially when you consider that quite a few people that shoot people in the head for a living, and could have anything they want, choose 1911s.

As for .45 ACP bashers... the term "sissy" does come to mind. :D

VaughnT
December 31, 2002, 12:18 PM
Chieftan, I think you bring up some good points, but I don't believe your position on the 1911 or Glock is valid. From a personal standpoint, I don't like Glocks...though I have been thinking about buying one just 'cause.

My Colt 1991 was functionally perfect until I turned it over to a local "smith" to have some cosmetic changes made. He really screwed it up and it is now in the hands of a nationally-recognized smith. It never failed on me. Every round was chambered, fired, extracted and ejected as it was supposed to be. Thousands of rounds downrange, accurately. No problems.

My Springfield was less than I could ask for, but it still functioned fine. I wanted more accuracy, but it was combat ready!

I have not yet seen a 1911-type that was problematic, though they do exist. Anything manufactured in the number that 1911-type weapons are is sure to see some lemons get through QC. Considering that a lot of these types of weapon are made in third-world countries, it is near miraculous that more aren't lemons. And those that you and I have seen fail cannot honestly be called lemons because neither of us is familiar with how that weapon was maintained. Can you really fault a weapon for failing when it has been abused and neglected?

FWIW, I carry a Smith 686 at work every day for three years and I love it. That is probably the finest combat revolver ever, with the 66 coming in as a close second.

okeydoke
December 31, 2002, 12:58 PM
beyond 25 yds, while the shooter is being shot at, except by pure luck, with no earprotection, etc. At any rate, such has never been proven, as in repeat hits. In the rare cases where such hits have been obtained, it was always one lucky shot, or else many such tries missed the chest. If they are talking about ambushes, from braced positions, or hunting, etc, then they are simply ignorant. The first Metallic Silohuette match held in the US was won by a Bullseye shooter, firing one handed, standing unsupported, with a 1911 .45, and ball ammo. He hit some of the 200 yd rams, but couldn't knock them over. His score was 26x40 Obviously, then, he hit quite a few of the 150 yd turkeys.

Shaughn Leayme
December 31, 2002, 02:39 PM
At the range, we would take handguns of various calibers and shoot at the gong's that were on the range and they had a 6 foot diameter one at 600 yards.

We had guys getting reliable hits (no wind days) with 22's out to 200 yards and while the Magnum boys had an easier time with the longer gongs all of us (except the smaller cartridges 22,32,380 etc) did get hits on that 600 hundred yard gong from time to time.

Low flying birds and aircraft be warned because many of us were shooting at the moon and walking the round into the gongs, but it was quite fun and an eye opener for some.

So, I think the Bashing is comprised of many things.

How many people laugh at the Inglis Carbine idea or the Luger concept, Radom and even the 1911 all of which had the ability to attach a shoulder stock (some anyway) and came equipped with sights with ranges out to 500 yards or better.

It might be taking the cartridge to the extreme, but I for one have no interest in getting struck by a pistol bullet at 5 yards or 500 yards.

As far as the revolver versus semi auto, ammunition can play a big roll in reliability and followed up by poor weapons care and or training and you can have all sorts of horror stories to recount.

One thing that the revolver crowd likes to point out is the ability to pull the trigger again and have a fresh cartridge under the hammer, whereas the auto must be cleared, but has anyone ever considered that the round you cycled past may be a hang fire and it may actually ignite and fire while not lined up with the barrel. Same could apply to the auto with the round going off while you attempt to clear it.

It come down to prefernce and experience...so take your pick and just smile politely at the folks.

chieftain
December 31, 2002, 02:59 PM
VaugnT,

I think you may be right about the 686. It just isn't the ticket for concealed carry. By the way I have put nightsights on my 686 as well as my 66.

I have chosen SIG, 228/229 for carry. I feel that these are the singularly most reliable pistols made out of the box.

Ohio State police actually showed the 226 in 40 marginally over the 229 in 40.

Yup the 226 had some slide problems in the 80's, and even saw a new SIG break. Have yet to see one DNF in any competition. I have 6 SIG's the only FTF's I have ever experienced was with IMI ammo lot of bad primers. Couldn't get the primers to work in SIG's, Glock's, HK,s or Smith's. Oh had one with winchester once, the primer was in backwards! And trigger bar spring break on the 225, a known weak spot along with the 225 magazines.

Oh about abuse and neglect. Marines in combat do abuse their weapons, but we didn't neglect them! It's a Marine thing. Most of our weapons didn't have the finish on them from cleaning them so much! And we definitly shot the sh*t out of them. Not the pistols that much, that only happened when things got close up and personal.

I probabley have averaged about 10 to 12 thousand rounds through the 220's in 45 and 38 super and 9mm, 228, 226 and 225, and about 7500 40cal and about 4500 357 Sig through the 229. By the way all ammo was factory. I now like winchester, I think it is a bit cleaner burning, some of that early win-clean technology getting in to the cheap stuff.

All in all about 60,000 rounds through these 6 guns, not counting the other 3 SIG's I have owned.

Had the trigger bar spring break in the 225 once that was a FTF, and the firing pin broke while dry firing the 229. Had the hammer rebound spring on my 220 in 45 break but that does not stop the gun from functioning at all. Just gives you droopy hammer.

SIG followed closely by HK, I think, are the most reliable guns, out of the box. And that is my standard. Sights and grips are personal. But no mods needed for accuracy or reliability. the finish sucks, but I keep my weapons clean so the wear looks bad but they don't rust!

Like the SEAL's over at the Tactical Forums state, don't need to replace the 226's they keep doing their job and have been in inventory longer than any other small arm they use. They work, and they keep them clean.

Some of those boy's use 1911 custom's, most use stock SIG's. That about says' it all. By the way they say they swim with S&W 686's. Now how cool is that.

Folks, take 100, rack grade 1911's and take 100 rack grade SIG's and/or 100 rack grade HK's and shoot the hell out of them. Maintain them proberly and you will have at least a 5 to 1 FTF rate or more with the 1911 vs either the SIG or HK. and that is regardless of caliber.

Guys, magazine reliability is still an issue in the 1911 world, 90 years later!

Vaughn lets keep chatting, good luck to you and your loved ones
And
HAPPY NEW YEAR

Fred

And May God Bless America

VaughnT
December 31, 2002, 04:52 PM
Fred, what sights did you choose? I was just over at the Ashley site and saw theirs on a 686....very neat. I believe Cylinder and Slide offers a fixed sight for them, too. There's a 66 for sale at the Police Supply shop just down from work. They're asking $290, but I'm not sure if I want to invest in it or get another 1911.

Can you ever stop buying pistols? I have to see a dentist, but there's just not enough money for guns and teeth!

How's that sig for stripping? I like that the 1911 can be taken down COMPLETELY with few if any tools. No fancy linkages or such to get lost.

Jim Higginbotham
December 31, 2002, 07:27 PM
Perhaps the thread has become a bit too broad. There does seem to be a tendency to marry the .45 ACP with the 1911 (which I suppose is only natural), especially amongst those who don't shoot a lot - or at least don't shoot a variety of guns.

I am just guessing but I would suppose the comments about long range (for pistols) ineffectiveness could be based on the gun as much (specifucally the myth of G.I. 1911s being inadequate) as the perceived trajectory disadvantages (which is also a myth).

As to reliability, I get to carry what I wish (and decide what others on the dept. carry - though I give them great leeway, a person should work out his own salvation) and I also get to see a good amount of rounds go downrange each year from a wide variety of handguns, carbines, shotguns and subguns - if there is anything that works as good as a 1911 set up the way JMB set it up - I have not seen it yet (with the possible exception of an M-14 or a BAR). That is not to say that others are not adequate to the task if well maintained either.

Just as in marksmanship, reliability has a lot to do with the operator (the way he handles as well as maintains his weapon bein critical). Show me a man who will accept one malfunction in 1,000 rounds and I will show you someone who does not take life seriously.

A Happy and Prosperous New Year to all!

Jim H.

VHinch
December 31, 2002, 09:46 PM
.45 and 9mm both have their places as well as their merits. 9mm is in my opinion a good choice for beginning shooters due to it's lower recoil and lower cost (less cost = more practice). However, while I own several guns in both calibers, with rare exception I carry the .45. Why? At gunfight distances I want the biggest hole in the aggressor. On the other hand, when I was shooting IDPA matches in college, I preferred the 9mm because I could shoot it faster.

As to the reliability of the 1911, these guns have come a long way since the days of the narrow feed ramps that would only feed FMJ. My 1917 GI surplus Colt isn't reliable with JHPs. However, every other 1911 I own has been completely reliable. Anyone who has spent any time around military weapons knows how parts get swapped around, and the gun becomes an unreliable "Frankenstein". Every Beretta I had my hands on in the military was this way, while all the ones I have purchased over the years have been perfect, and my IDPA gun was a 92 Elite II. In my experience, those who bash one gun to praise their own often have only heresay information and no actual side by side trigger time. Just something to keep in mind.

Rant off.
Vance

SouthpawShootr
December 31, 2002, 10:33 PM
What's wrong with them?

Could be a couple of things. Envy for one. The other is much more troubling. There seem to be alot of people around that think that everybody should be made to adhere to their point of view (PETA is a good example of this nonsense). You get your grins out of shooting a .45. Fine by mine. Knock yourself out.

Jim Higginbotham
January 1, 2003, 09:47 AM
Vance wrote;
As to the reliability of the 1911, these guns have come a long way since the days of the narrow feed ramps that would only feed FMJ. My 1917 GI surplus Colt isn't reliable with JHPs. However, every other 1911 I own has been completely reliable.
------------------------------------

Just to expand (if you'll pardon the pun) on your excellent observations - the old 1911s might not feed *some* JHPs but I have one made in 1912 and one in 1923 and they both feed Remington (both regular and GS), Winchester Subsonic (but Ranger Talons are only 99%-not acceptable), Hydra-Shok, All weights of Hornady factory ammo and Federal Expanding FMJ just fine. They do not feed some of the other designs (like 200 gr Speer, or even the 230 Gold Dot), SWCs or some others that do not match the standard .45 ACP Ogive - that would seem to be an ammunition problem not a gun design problem (yes you can modify the design and make them feed if you wish).

Gee, None of my Berettas (or Brownings or Sigs) will feed full wadcutters (and actually occasionally hang up on Gold Dots) but my Colt .38 Special auto will - hmmmm, perhaps we should select ammo designed for the gun/magazine. There's a novel idea.

Just a thought.

Cordially,
Jim H.

sm
January 1, 2003, 10:04 AM
In case some of you don't know this gentleman, lets just say he has more knowledge in his little pinkie, than most of us will learn in a lifetime.

Bash, I don't. Heed Mr. Jim - yes I do.

Exchange student "bashed" because her family used a 32 auto with ball ammo...
She:" when ALL you can have due to laws ( no military calibers), your grateful, you practice and you pray, you American's take too many things for granted, spoiled, and don't shoot enough".

BTW I took her shooting, best comment from her: " I like big holes from 45's" :D

chieftain
January 1, 2003, 01:26 PM
To VaugnT,

I used both Mepro and Trijicon. The trijicon is a better mount, but I see the Mepro's better. Go figure.

And I agree with you about the 686. Oh, jump on that 66 if it is in good shape.

About being like PETA, what single view am I advocating? I belive thou doth protest to much!

Jim, where can I find some of those 9mm wadcutters? I only shoot factory ammo, gave up hand loading about 17 years ago. I am planning to team my Smith 52 with a 952! Frankly haven't fired the 52 in several years. but who knows.

I have not had any gun of mine, SIG, Glock, Hk, Smith & Wesson jam with Gold Dot's. Have any of the many Departments that use the gold dot had problems with the Gold Dot's not functioning? If so which round and gun?

Well fellows, Happy New Year

Fred

Jim Higginbotham
January 1, 2003, 04:34 PM
"Jim, where can I find some of those 9mm wadcutters?
--------------------------

Nope, no factory WC that I know of - you have to roll your own.

Best I could ever do was get 158 Keith bullets to feed in some 9s.

Please don't take the Gold Dot comment to be a slam on that particular bullet. In .45, they did not quite get the nose to hit the feed ramp the same point as a ball round does but in other calibers they seem fine. It is probably coincidence that my Beretta choked on one (and oddly enough My Glock 23 has only failed to feed one time on a Gold Dot) - but I shoot more Gold Dots than others (except .45 caliber) so it is an "odds" thing not a particualar bullet. Just to be fair my Sig 220 had several failures to feed with Hydra-Shoks.

Speer has had a problem with brass or sizing from time to time and you can sometime push a bullet back into the case with just thumb pressure (to be sure it takes some effort) - which can cause the round to shorten when fed.

The Gold Dot is an extremely well designed bullet, wish they had rounded the edge of the .45 cavity just tad though.

52's were nifty! Actually a whole lot more common than the Colts.

Cheers,
Jim H.

chieftain
January 1, 2003, 05:43 PM
Jim,

Interesting about the Gold Dot. The only caliber I carry it in is 357 SIG. I also use their 158 gr 357 Mag in my Marlin 1994 16" er.

I have used Hydro-shoks in my 220's and Glocks. Never had a jam. Blazer was the only make ammo that ever jammed in my 220's. and of course even Glock warns against using target loads in the 21.

The Glock 30 shoots everything I have put through it. But I did put Bar-Sto barrels in both my remaining Glock 45's. I call it KB insurance. also more accuracy.

I had to stop bullseye shooting with my Smith 14 an 52 when the arthritis took over. Could not lock my elbows anymore. That's when i began 'ACTION' matches. IDPA and now production IPSC.

Much of my shooting use to be with the Florida Peace Officers Association, sanctioned matchs.

Was it the newer shaped Hydro-Shock or the old, and I am presuming 230 grainers.

Good luck and Happy New Year

Fred

Jim Higginbotham
January 1, 2003, 06:42 PM
Fred wrote:
Was it the newer shaped Hydro-Shock or the old, and I am presuming 230 grainers.
---------------------

Yep it was the newer round profile ones. I thought it was kinda strange but it happened with 3 different magazines about the the last 2 or 3 rounds in the mag.

Cheers,
Jim.

Butch
January 1, 2003, 07:25 PM
I agree with the troll idea. They like to bash, & the 45 is popular so they get to bash more people that way.
The 45 is a real classic & one of the best.

I DONT OWN ONE!:p

cratz2
January 1, 2003, 08:58 PM
Hate to seem closed-minded but am I the only one that's decided who should be the first person blocked from our new forum? :rolleyes:

Drjones
January 2, 2003, 04:56 AM
What's wrong with people who are bashing .45's?




They are jealous because yours is bigger, of course!!! :neener: :evil:

Drjones
January 2, 2003, 05:03 AM
Hate to seem closed-minded but am I the only one that's decided who should be the first person blocked from our new forum?

I'm reeeally confused: I read through this ENTIRE thread to pick out the troll, and couldn't find a one!

What gives???

4v50 Gary
January 2, 2003, 01:00 PM
Discuss issues, not personalities. We may disagree in our discourse, we should never squabble and lower ourselves to name calling.

okeydoke
January 3, 2003, 11:19 PM
no speed safeties, and no memory groove beavertail grip safeties, and the guys hadn't been taught to get a high grasp on the gun, and leave their thumbs atop the safeties while firing. A lot of GI mags are pieces of junk, too. I'll take the sometimes jamming 1911 .45, with its SA trigger pull and utterly reliable FIRST shot, over a toy of a .38, with lrn or Milatary fmj ammo, any day.

Many things can prevent a revolver from firing its first shot, and most of those things happen with military guns, in the jungle, and they happen often. They happen very frequently on dirt-sand airfields, too, with planes and choppers putting lots of dust and sand into the air, to get into the tight workings of a revolver. I have several times locked up tight a revolver, just by dropping it into a pile of limestone, a grain bin full of shelled corn or soybeans.

cratz2
January 4, 2003, 11:43 AM
I'm reeeally confused: I read through this ENTIRE thread to pick out the troll, and couldn't find a one!

Actually, this (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=864) is the thread with more of a 'troll feel' to it. And I never used the word troll. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and certainly is free to talk or post about it. But at a certain point, if it seems someone is just posting to bach one particular platform, esp one that got us through war after war after war after war, it starts to seem like he's either profiting for the sale of SIGs or is as well informed as he might think. :fire:

Mastrogiacomo
January 4, 2003, 01:48 PM
It's kind of like when people bash all Beretta handguns I suppose. Probably ignorance.:)

Hk Paul
January 4, 2003, 02:09 PM
Id take a 45 over a 9mm any day.

Nothing feels like a 1911. The people that bash 45 are the ones that just dont "get it"

New_comer
January 4, 2003, 08:40 PM
Id take a 45 over a 9mm any day. I'll take the reciprocal stand (been a metric lover since TFL :D)

As far as the 1911 style of guns, I'm curious enough to give it a chance and buy one,

In time... ;)

jrpeterman
January 4, 2003, 10:02 PM
I've owned only one .45 acp, a S & W 645. It was a sweet gun. I regret selling it. I've shot many different guns chambered for the .45 over the years: Sig, Colt, Kimber, S & W, Glock, Llama, Ithaca, etc. The .45 is a fine round as is the 9mm, 40 S & W, and .357 Sig. The Kimber and the Colt Gold Cup were the two most accurate 45's that I ever fired and were on par with the most accurate handguns that I had the pleasure to shoot. Though I don't currently own a .45, I am considering a CZ-97b for my next purchase just because of the raves over their accuracy out of the box ,and I want a .45 to fill the gap in my collection. I know people who own the Ruger 90 that swear by it's out of the box accuracy. What's nice is there are so many choices available for the .45 acp besides the 1911 design to suit the individual shooter.

Climb14er
January 4, 2003, 11:27 PM
and I personally enjoy the .45 acp as a round that is fairly straight forward to shoot with minimal recoil.

I carry my HK USPc most of the time because it's cocked and locked like a 1911 and it's much lighter with two mags and polymer frame, especially while backpacking and in the mountains.

My five inch all steel 1911 weighs approx 40 ounces, plus another 16 ounces for two full gov't mags. That's a lot of weight to be carrying in the mountains.

With Proload 124 gr. +P Gold Dots, I don't feel underpowered in the slightest. PLUS, the HK is TOTALLY reliable! That's the most important. And I have nite sights on the HK.

So, I'm a .45 acp guy but when it comes to packing lighter weight, the 9mm compact with +P's comes with me in a Safepacker holster.

chieftain
January 5, 2003, 03:52 PM
CRATZ2 States


".....esp one that got us through war after war after war after war, it starts to seem like he's either profiting for the sale of SIGs or is as well informed as he might think."

Cratz2, once again attacking my integrity because you will not, or cannot argue on merit is sure frustrating. Then you accuse me of bashing! Simply amazing.

The main reason we used the 1911 in 4 major wars is that after the first one there was no other major caliber semi Auto, after WWII the military stated it wanted to change side arms. S&W developed the model 39 in preparation. The Korean war put that on the back burner. By the way think about the timing of the commander and the light weight commander.

Next was the Viet Nam war, we were still fighting over which rifle to use, much more important than handguns.

I wish I could profit from the sale of SIG's or HK's etc.... But I don't. I only have combat experience, apparently yours is much more compelling and extensive than mine.

Crats2 just for fun lets discuss the arguement on facts and not through dispersions on each other. By the way I think there are several reliable platforms for the 45, I just don't believe it's the 1911, unless it is semi custom or custom.
---------------------------
Okeydoke states:

"no speed safeties, and no memory groove beavertail grip safeties, and the guys hadn't been taught to get a high grasp on the gun, and leave their thumbs atop the safeties while firing. A lot of GI mags are pieces of junk, too. I'll take the sometimes jamming 1911 .45, with its SA trigger pull and utterly reliable FIRST shot, over a toy of a .38, with lrn or Milatary fmj ammo, any day.

Many things can prevent a revolver from firing its first shot, and most of those things happen with military guns, in the jungle, and they happen often. They happen very frequently on dirt-sand airfields, too, with planes and choppers putting lots of dust and sand into the air, to get into the tight workings of a revolver. I have several times locked up tight a revolver, just by dropping it into a pile of limestone, a grain bin full of shelled corn or soybeans."
----------------------------

Well Okeydoke, I carried a revolver for 2 tours in the Nam. I was with the 3rd Marine Division and attached to every one of their battalions ( 3th,4th,9thMarines) and companies at one time or other, also attached to 5 th Marines and 23rd Marines. But I was with the 3rd Marines most often. also did some special work.

During that time, believe it or not, I saw just a little dust and sand, some jungle and an airfield or two.

Never had my S&W or my M14 fail to go bang, even while the 1911's and Mattey Mattels jammed. Cleaned both guns twice a day. The only weapon I ever dropped was My M14 at Parris Island while learning the Manual of Arms. Only did that once, frankly it is both literally and figuratively a painful memory! I haven't dropped a weapon since that day, in limestone or corn or soybeans!

Okeydoky, reliablility is the single primary reason police in the United States stuck with the revolver for 70 years vs the 1911 which was the only other real choice. We could use the Ill State Police, who went to the S&W 39 in the 60's. But they more than proved the rule. Friend of mine, retired Secret Service who had served on Presidential security detail, used a revolver! He is now a SIG shooter, reason reliability!

The police didn't go to the military type side arm for 70 years, and didn't suddenly go to the Semi Auto because the military did. They went because the new generation of Semi Auto's were much more reliable.

Okeydoky, maybe with some trainning you could learn to shoot double action weapons too!

I think it is interesting, that Earnest Langston, who I had the privledge to shoot a state match with a couple of years ago stated about the Baretta he was shooting:

"I actually shoot more accurately in double action than single action, except for the time splits, I would shoot double action all the time!" As an old revolver guy, I would agree with Earnie based on my own experience. I shoot pretty good but I am not in the same class as a Langston, not trying to infer that I am!

Just as an aside, that was an IDPA match and Earnie, who took SSP with his Baretta, lost overall to an obscure unknown shooting a Springfield single stack, Rob Latham!

local police, state police, federal cops, and military do reliability comparisons on occasion. I don't know of any, that when a 1911 platform is entered they even finish.

Yes some SWAT type units are using customized 1911's. At least one of them I have heard are having proplems with their TRP's.

and the last comment I will leave to Jim Higginbotham:

"Just as in marksmanship, reliability has a lot to do with the operator (the way he handles as well as maintains his weapon bein critical). Show me a man who will accept one malfunction in 1,000 rounds and I will show you someone who does not take life seriously.

A Happy and Prosperous New Year to all!

Jim H."

Here Here Jim, and once more Happy New Year

Fred


__________________

Joe Demko
January 6, 2003, 10:44 AM
Most likely they simply enjoy watching you get pissed off.

chieftain
January 6, 2003, 11:47 AM
No one here has seen me pissed off. These folks don't have the ability or power to piss me off or get me angry.

I am not angry just frustrated.

I had hoped for discussion and reasoned argument. I find with notable exception, name calling and impuning of my integrity and abilities. Shrink would have a field day with these folks.

Interestingly, a good reason to like anything is, "I like it and wish to carry it".

I hope when they argue the right to keep and bear arms with the anti's they use more logic and reason than has been shown here.

I guess those who can do, those who can't can't

Good luck

Fred

dd-b
January 6, 2003, 12:58 PM
For target work with a semi-auto, a 1911 would be my frist choice currently.

On the other hand, I wouldn't consider a basic single-action design for carry. I don't consider it safe with a round chambered, and it's too slow otherwise.

I think some of what you may be seeing is people thinking of guns more for defense and less for target shooting. Big blocky single-action designs aren't as popular for defense.

(Yes, I know lots of people carry a full-size .45 cocked and locked and think it's "perfectly safe". Go figure.)

Mike Irwin
January 6, 2003, 01:25 PM
Maybe the same thing that's wrong with people who think that a 1911 and the .45 ACP round immediately makes A) them bullet proof, B) guarantees that any bad guy they shoot at, but not necessarily hit, will disappear in a red poof, C) attention to shot placement unnecessary, D) nearer to God's chosen few?

:rolleyes:

Obviously not everyone who owns a 1911/.45 is this way. Nor is it limited solely to the 1911/.45 combo.

But the herding instinct is strong.

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