[Drizzt]

The Houston Chronicle


February 13, 2003, Thursday 2 STAR EDITION

SECTION: THISWEEK; Pg. 17

LENGTH: 348 words

HEADLINE: Why do police officers shoot so many times?

BYLINE: SGT. STEVE COPELAND

BODY:
Q. I have noticed that when police officers are involved shootings, they often shoot the person numerous times or they keep shooting until their gun is empty. Since you are trained to shoot to kill and you carry guns and bullets with probably the most knock-down power available, why is it necessary to shoot someone 10 times or more, even if the shooting is in self defense and justified?

A. Police officers are not trained to shoot to kill. We are trained to stop the threat of deadly force being used against us or another person. Secondly, there is no such thing as knock-down power except on television and in the movies. A bullet simply cannot knock a person down. When you shoot a person with a handgun, it is usually hard to tell if you even hit them. Many times the person who is shot doesn't know they have been hit until they see the blood or eventually feel the pain. On television, they go flying across the room.

The only way to stop a person immediately is to shoot them in the brain or the upper spinal cord. Few, if any, shooting incidents allow the officer to take careful aim at the person's head. Otherwise, the way to stop a person with a gun is to make them bleed enough to cause them to go into shock or to lose consciousness. That much blood loss is caused by putting enough holes in them.

Even with major wounds, the person will not immediately be incapacitated. Even if the heart is completely destroyed, there is enough oxygen in the brain for a person to live and continue the threat for at least another 10 to 15 seconds. That doesn't sound like much time unless you consider that one could empty a gun in less than five seconds. One of our officers tried to stop a man who had killed his wife with a butcher knife. When the man came at him with the knife, the officer shot the man six times in the chest with his .357 magnum. The man was still able to cut the officer before he passed out from the loss of blood almost 10 minutes later. Yes, it is common for a police officer - defending his or her life - to have to shoot someone numerous times.

NOTES: Send questions to Sgt. Steve Copeland in care of Major Offenders Division, 1200 Travis, Houston, Texas, 77002 or e-mail Sgtcopeland@aol.com or call 713-308-3166.

LOAD-DATE: February 15, 2003

[Zander]

Because they are trained that way...

[Shooter973]

Because if you have to shoot at all, ammo is cheap and your life is on the line, your life is very expensive. :(

[CZ-75]

Because most only get to the range once a year and the difficulty level is "bunny slope."

[Mannlicher]

Personally I think Sgt Copeland made a responsible and logical reply to the question.

I am pretty anti cop my self, but you cannot say his response was not appropriate.

[trapshooter]

Sgt. Copeland gave a great answer.

Zander put in the last piece of the puzzle. Shoot until they drop or obviously quit.

A good principle to remember.

[P95Carry]

IMO ... if the situation demands fire .. then you don't wait until you see the guy go down .... you make damn sure, to best of your ability - he WILL go down .... and a double tap won't always cut it ..... not with adrenalin takin over fine motor skills!!

If it was my life needing protected I am afraid I would not be ''economizing'' on the ammo! Pray I never have to test that out.

[Coronach]

Excellent response by Sgt. Copeland. Spot on.


Mike

[AngryBassets]

"If someone's worth shooting, they are probably worth shooting alot".

Forget where I heard that; but I agree...

[Ed Brunner]

Good answers so far. Here are a couple more.

Police shootings are different. There usually is only one target and a number of shooters so it is logical that more rounds would be expended. Military shootings often involve many more targets than shooters and time is of the essence. Military shooters are interested in quickly "neutralizing" a target so they can attend to others, which apparently doesn't happen that often in police work. So like the article says, that is how they are trained.

Also, it appears that police are reluctant to admit that they deliberately shot and killed a person, so they shoot until the threat is neutralized even though it requires emptying a number of weapons. Military on the other hand, usually try to conserve ammo since resupply can be iffy.

All in all it clearly is a different kind of shooting.

[Bob Locke]

Because they are trained that way...
Have a friend who used to be a firearm's instructor for the Chesapeake, VA sheriff's department. Their "thought process", like the one in this article, was to poke numerous holes in the target and let them bleed to the point of passing out or dying.

My take: If you can shoot 'em in the heart, you can shoot 'em in the head.

[twoblink]

Because when you are shooting him, he's still standing, and if he's wearing dark clothing, you have NO CLUE if you hit him or not... He will not dance around like in the movies, being shot...

[Frohickey]

Sure, you can shoot them in the head, if they are standing still, and so are you.

But you, hopefully, will be trying to find cover or shooting from cover, while the guy shooting at you is moving as well. The COM is a higher percentage shot than the CNS, so, its best to try for the COM and start the bleeding process early. Bad guys are not like water balloons, where one shot and out goes all the red stuff. Bleeding takes some time, its best to get it started early.

Two COM shots at time zero and time +0.5seconds is better than a CNS shot at time +2.0seconds, because there have been 2 seconds of blood loss, and hopefully, the bad guy is not a happy camper, but a drowzy camper.




Military, on the other hand, are issued more powerful firearms. Burst mode rifles and machineguns, as well as grenades, mortars, main battle tanks, aerial bombardment, cruise missiles and NAPALM! :D

Police (at least the normal street cop, and not the SWAT team) are issued semi-auto sidearms with at most a 5 inch barrel with a relatively slow velocity projectile coming out of it, or a low pressure shotgun. When we finally invent phasers, police will most likely have theirs permanently set to stun.

[Baba Louie]

Yers ago here in LV, back in about 82 or so, some guy went nuts at the airport (the old PSA Terminal, for those who remember it), had a ticket to get home, was drunk and wanted to go home RIGHT NOW and passing thru the metal detector, it went off and he pulled a gun out and shot the security guard lady at the detector station. Another guard ran into the waiting lobby and got everyone out via the apron exit and the Airport Metro hightailed it over there on the apron side.

Long story made short, two cops approach from apron side where BG has one of the security ladies kinda hostage in the waiting area. 1 officer had a Smith 357, the other a Smith SA. Both fired, 357 guy hit him with one round, SA emptied magazine.

BG down.

It was determined that the 357 did the job.

The SA officer told his commander that he just couldn't stop it (pulling the trigger) and that it happened so fast that it was over before he really knew it began and he just couldn't stop.

Its one thing to shoot at a paper target. Another to train IDPA, IPSC, PPC whatever. But someone who's armed, already shot someone and has another as a hostage?

I think that I'd probably do the same thing the first time or two I had to get serious with a handgun. Maybe thats why a revolver is a good way to go.

Really hope I don't have to find out.

Two cliche's come to mind about this matter (Police shooting so many times):
Its a thin blue line keeping those BG's at bay.
-and-
A lot of people need shootin (and since I'm not allowed to do it, I'm glad they're there).

I could be wrong. But here... I'm not.

Adios

[triggertime]

Why? Because their hit ratio to the number of shots fired is extremely low. Lets be honest, cops only qualify once or twice a year and most of them are not gun enthusiasts. Add to the fact that most are poorly trained and you can understand why most have the spray and pray 'shoot to slide lock & neutralize the threat' mentality.

[Blackhawk]

You eliminate the threat -- as long as you have the ability to, you keep eliminating the threat.

[WilderBill]

Could also be because most of us would end up in court trying to explain why we had to shoot the BG twice when we hit him the first time and trying to not look like we just plain set out to kill the poor guy.
LE can just shrug and say "I was trained to keep shootin'".
I tend to agree with "if they'er worth shootin', they're worth shootin' more than once" line, but there are some legal differences.

[Mark IV Series 80]

Often, more than one cop will be holding a suspect / suspects at gunpoint.

If one officer fires, often the others will fire like a chain reaction.

It may be, that when the officers hear the first shot, they think that the suspect must have made a move for a weapon or the first cop would not have fired.

Also, when the police hear the first shot, they may think that they have come under fire.

[Leadbutt]

THe Sgt's post was spot on for the "PC" answer but triggertime is closer to the truth, I have been in the game for 30 years now and a "FI" for better than half of it. Cops are just plain lazy any more when it comes to shooting,some due to the under pressure at the academys about what happens after the fact,which in my opinon has gotten more than a few cops shot when it was avoidable,some due to the fact that all this "BS" about coumnitity policeing, but mostly it is due to lack of training with the tools that will save your butt. Once you get pass the state/federal level and down to the cities/towns/polictial subdivisions they're lucky to qual once a year, and here in VA they are only required to score 70% to pass, although some do require a little higher, but even at 80% you are still talking about a 20% miss ratio, so go figure. I stay say on a whole that those of us who used the wheel gun did better than what I see from new troops with the semis, we were taught to count rounds and knew we only had six,most if not all the semi trained guys and gals are being trained to shoot until slide lock then access, Oh well I get of the soap box now.;)

[DeltaElite]

Q: Officer, why did you shoot my client 18 times with your dept issue Glock 17?

A: I ONLY shot him 18 times, because he fell before I could reload. :evil:

[TheeBadOne]

Why? Because their hit ratio to the number of shots fired is extremely low. Lets be honest, cops only qualify once or twice a year and most of them are not gun enthusiasts. Add to the fact that most are poorly trained and you can understand why most have the spray and pray 'shoot to slide lock & neutralize the threat' mentality.

Fair enough in general, but let's also add that; "Until you've seen the elephant firsthand yourself, you will not understand".
We are not talking about shooting a paper target or a swinging metal plate. Those who have not experianced combat can not understand the dynamics of combat no matter how many times they watch Saving Private Ryan or Dirty Harry.

[jimpeel]

The police are terainer to empty their weapon at the assailant to disallow the perpetrator to return fire with accuracy and place him in the maximum fear for his life.

I live by this belief and I have trained my wife the same way.

[4v50 Gary]

Sympathetic fire.

Anybody else catch The History Channel's analysis of the Boston Massacre? I couldn't finish it. First, they should have mentioned the trial of the soldiers by an American jury. They were acquitted on the basis of self defense. Second, they determined the exact distance that folks fell. Well, that's good, but it ignores the position the shooting victim was in when shot. One doesn't necessarily drop from one shot - even from a Brown Bess. Third, the theory of sympathetic fire (one soldier shoots and the other soldiers shoot because they've heard the first shot).

[jimpeel]

I don't watch the revisionist history program on The History Channel. Their beliefs are held on too many unknowns to be more accurate than eyewitness accounts of the time.

[The Nip]

If you want to hear about ridiculous police shootings, do a search on stories from Hawaii.

Last year, a group of four or five cops "diffused" a hostage situation (felon hijacks a truck while man and baby are still inside, then goes on the run from cops) here in Hawaii. To make a long story short, these "trained police officers" ended up emptying over 150 rounds into a parked truck, while the kidnapper and his two victims (man and his child) WERE STILL INSIDE.

In the pictures, you can see that these trained professionals shot everything BUT the hostage-taker. The tires, the truck bed, the hood, the doors.

A total of 150 shots...and not only did they finally sink a whopping 2 shots into the felon, but managed to hit the hostages a few times, also!

Great shooting, HPD. You make us all proud.

Don't get me started on another story where three rookies emptied over 60 rounds into a knife-wielding maniac. Thank god for HI-CAP LEO magazines! God forbid these marksmen have to reload more than twice in taking down ONE guy.


NIP

[DeltaElite]

Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.

[JeepDriver]

Because there is no magic bullet!

Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

[TheeBadOne]

Bullet-proof vests aren't

[Selfdfenz]

It's been a few years now but I remember when the HP of the state in which I lived at the time switched from 357 revolvers to hi cap 9mm SAs.
I remember two points in particular as related to me by a HP pal of mine at about that time.
1. The troopers were pretty underwhelmed with the 9mm idea.
2. The typical HP shooting went from 1-2 shots/hits with a revolver to something like 4-5 with the SA at least for the first few HP shooting involving SAs. He was talking about cases where the BG was killed. There were cases where the BG was hit many more that 4-5 times and those made the news.

That was something like 15-20 years ago IIRC. And, the 9mm ammo we have today has better performance characteristics than what those officers were issued.

I don't have the slightest idea what the HP training doctrines where at the time but it wouldn't suprise me to find officers were trained to have a more liberal policy to firing their weapons,if they had to,after it became a 9mm as opposed to the revolver that was empty after 6 shots. I believe that state's HP has 357 Sig caliber pistols now.

S-

[Blackcloud6]

I bet fear has something to do with it also. And frankly, I bet my fear factor would go up greatly in a firefight.