URGENT! Research for RKBA again: listen up CALIFORNIANS!


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Jim March
August 7, 2004, 10:48 AM
OK, got another research project.

This is about SB1152, Sen. Jack Scott's ammo registration bill.

Scott is saying that 15 California cities and counties already have ammo registration (sales and purchaser info recorded at gun dealers, accessible to cops) and that it's "successful" there.

He's getting his info from LCAV, Legal Community Against Violence, a grabber lawyer group who have published the following table:

Locality Ammunition Ordinance Still in Effect?

Baldwin Park Title XIII, Chapter 130, Section 130.72 Yes

Beverly Hills Title 4, Chapter 4, Article 6, Section 4-4.606 Yes

Contra Costa County Title, 8, Chapter 82-36, Article 82-36.10 Yes

Hayward Chapter 6, Article 11, Section 6-11.07 Yes

Inglewood Chapter 5, Article 1, Section 5-19.4 Yes

Los Angeles Chapter 5, Article 5, Section 55.11 Yes

Marin County Title 6, Chapter 6.58, Section 6.58.075 Yes

Oakland Title 9, Chapter 9.20, Section 9.20.040 Yes

Pomona Chapter 16, Section 16.50 Yes

San Anselmo Title 4, Chapter 18, Section 4-18.15 Yes

San Francisco City and County Police Code, Article 9, Section 618 Yes

Santa Ana Chapter 10, Article IX, Section 10-507 Yes

Santa Monica Article 3, Chapter 3.25, Section 3.25.020 Yes

Tiburon Title VI, Chapter 32, Section 32-15 Yes

West Hollywood Title 5, Article 2, Chapter 5.60, Section 5.60.040 Yes

A big question has come up regarding the accuracy of this. One of us in Contra Costa County, who recently bought ammo there and whoops, there was no registration. He did so again to check, at a different location, same thing.

The Contra Costa ordinance has NOT been enforced, law enforcement hasn't told the gun dealers about this nor have they scooped anything up.

This is being touted as a "successful" program? :scrutiny:

The goal: prove LCAV is stretching the truth rather severely.

IF you've bought ammo in side the city or county limits of these jurisdictions, post whether or not the gun shop took down your info!

DO NOT post the name of the gun shop. I may ask you in private, but don't go public. (Moderators, this really is critical: edit out the names of any gun shops posted, immediately. Gun *shows*, no problem as long as the vendor isn't named.)

---------

FULL DISCLOSURE: there's a danger here that we might accidentally CAUSE enforcement to begin in some of these areas. OK? The tradeoff is that by showing that the bill's proponents are blowing smoke, we can kill off statewide implementation of the same thing and probably embarass the other side badly enough to make the issue go away.

Meanwhile, I'll spend part of today calling gun shops, see how much data I can get that way. Good thing I have a free-unlimited-calls cellphone plan.

We need this for MONDAY, 8/7.

Thanks!

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50 Shooter
August 7, 2004, 10:54 AM
Jim,
You might want to ask over on Cal Guns.

Jim March
August 7, 2004, 10:59 AM
Yup. Was just about to do that :).

Gunsnrovers
August 7, 2004, 11:28 AM
Have purchased within Inglewood City limits and have not had my information collected.

Don of Kalifornia
August 7, 2004, 11:29 AM
Hayward and Oakland both no longer have any gun stores, or even places like Wal-Mart that sells ammo..

50 Shooter
August 7, 2004, 01:15 PM
Another place you can post it Jim is ar15.com, look for the hometown forums and then post it in California.

BB62
August 7, 2004, 01:18 PM
Sent in a PM

CWatson
August 7, 2004, 03:24 PM
I buy ammo in Los Angeles,City and County all the time and have never been asked for any personal information.However once I was asked if it was for a handgun or a rifle.

You can tell Arnold's staff that one of the main reasons I bought a house in Nevada and plan to move myself and my business there within the next year is because of California's ever increasingly restrictive gun laws and massive unchecked illegal immigration.


CWatson

Jim March
August 7, 2004, 03:50 PM
CWatson: yes, we know about the "drive 'em out" factor :(. I personally have six friends I've "lost" to gun laws as the major factor. (Well, I still have 'em by EMail :)...)

Also: could you EMail or PM me the names of the LA City/county gun shops you've bought from, and roughly when? (If it's confirmed inside the last year, that's good enough.)

That goes for everybody in LA city/county.

fjolnirsson
August 7, 2004, 05:05 PM
close to 10,000 rounds within the last year. All of it purchased within Contra Costa County. All at stores, none from gun shows. Once, at a large chain store, I was asked to show ID for the purchase of handgun ammo. It was a 50 round box. Most other purchases have been 1000 or more rounds, and I have never been fingerprinted or asked for id. All of the above was handgun ammo.

Jim March
August 7, 2004, 05:06 PM
We have reports from Van Nuys and Northridge - no request for personal info.

This is all lookin' WAY fishy :scrutiny:.

cerberus
August 7, 2004, 05:19 PM
And I have not missed it. The more I read about how it makes life tough for a gun owner and shooter the more I think leaving was a real good move.:)

gunsmith
August 7, 2004, 05:26 PM
In SF and Marin and coco county without being checked for ID with one exception in order to buy Fed Hydra Shoks (in SF only) needed current armed guard card.
Never questioned about buying the far more dangerous FMJ ammo in either SF or Marin and coco county.

Also you can tell the Gov and staff I'm moving ASAP as well and allready spend alot more gun $$$ in NV then CA now.

While you're at it tell them that people from all over the world visit CA and SF and drive cars without getting a CA drivers license so please don't tell me that for some mysterious reason illegal criminals need a drivers license (which BTW allows them to buy shotguns and rifles)....

Oh yeah workers comp is still real expensive for employers and screws over workers-thanks alot!

Jim March
August 7, 2004, 05:41 PM
YES! Just got off the phone with the owner of a very reputable Marin gun shop.

1) Tiburon and San Anselmo have NO retail ammo supplies, so it's purely symbolic. They *might* have an FFL holder at a pawn shop or something.

2) Marin County is NOT doing ammo registration, and no registration info is being taken at ANY gun shop in Marin that he knows of, certainly not his.

-----------

San Francisco's one remaining dealer IS taking down the info. Still waiting for work back on whether or not SFPD is actually trolling through it on a regular basis...

Jim March
August 7, 2004, 05:59 PM
Pomona: no gun shops at all:

http://www.smartpages.com/directory/search.jhtml?NewSearch=YES&QueryString=guns&DirectoryVerified=ONMT+CAST+IEMZ+OCSMZ+SCAMZ+SBC_PBD+NATL_PBD+ONMT&dn=Ontario&CityVerified=Pomona&StateVerified=CA&DirectoryStateVerified=CA&AreaCodeVerified=&ZipVerified=&HeadingCodeVerified=8009113&HeadingDesc=Guns+%26+Gunsmiths&LocType=12&QueryType=1&DirAvail=true&From=&ClearLevel=MerchantListing&StartRow=0&NumRows=20&TotalRows=0&SortType=22&Radius=2&AddressChoice=&listingid=&lastavindex=0&pagedirec=2&lastpgsz=5&Tag=recreation&CityPostalFlag=DVC

:scrutiny:

Ditto Hayward.

Ditto Oakland.

Still checking others. A few gun dealers are reluctant to talk about this stuff :(.

Jim March
August 7, 2004, 06:21 PM
No ammo sales in Beverly Hills :rolleyes:.

But there's a correction on Pamona: according to the local Big5 (thanks to who pointed that out in PM, I checked Big5's site but they don't list that outlet!), they ARE recording ammo sales. They drop off the forms with the local police at the same time they pick up fresh forms, so there's no way of knowing whether or not the local police are actually doing anything with 'em.

We've found other cases where the records are sitting collecting dust for "over two years" :rolleyes: with the police not interested at all. I won't say who but he's agreed I can give his contact info to Arnold's staff.

schizrade
August 7, 2004, 08:49 PM
Nothing beyond ID check in SF.

Sawdust
August 7, 2004, 09:55 PM
I've had to give all of my personal info and thumbprint a couple of times in Granada Hills (San Fernando Valley).

HTH,

Sawdust

Jim March
August 8, 2004, 12:42 AM
Here's the CalGuns thread:

http://calguns.net/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=888602736&f=5986098711&m=44110783511&p=1

erem
August 8, 2004, 02:47 PM
Jim-

I've bought ammo in Inglewood many times, and never had to register anything.

(Edited to reflect Jim's requirements.)

Jim March
August 8, 2004, 04:10 PM
Erem: strip your post out, send me the same in private mail or EMail.

No store names.

Mods: strip his post as quick as you can if he doesn't get to it. Last thing we need is to implicate gun dealers in illegality.

Destructo6
August 8, 2004, 04:10 PM
I don't see any listing for guns or ammo in Santa Ana or Pomona, so that may be a moot point. Two pawn shops are the closest thing in Pomona. Two smith shops and a cowboy shop in Santa Ana.

hvengel
August 9, 2004, 03:58 PM
Jim,

The Contra Costa law only apply to the unencorperated (sp? sorry) areas. So if the sale takes place in an encorporated area such as , San Ramon, Danville, Almo, Concord or Pleasent Hill the law does not apply. My guess is that 80% to 90% of the places that sell amunition in CC county are not covered by this law.

Also what is "succesful". How many crimes have been solved in those 15 localities because of this? My guess is a big fat zero.

Hal

Penforhire
August 9, 2004, 05:26 PM
LA county store (City of Norwalk) -- they check my license, I assume for age, but never write anything down. This is for 38 Spec/357 Mag/9 mm/45 Auto/12 ga and some of these are labeled as "self-defense" rounds.

Jim March
August 9, 2004, 05:29 PM
HVengel: I'm aware of the "incorporation" issue in Contra Costa - but we have evidence that it's also not being enforced (no data even recorded) on county land.

drclark
August 9, 2004, 06:46 PM
I've purchased in LA County and Inglewood w/o being asked for any personal info.

drc

Russ
August 9, 2004, 07:59 PM
Jim,

If Iive to be 95 I will have still lived in Kali the majority of my life. I live in KY now but I can't find employment anymore so I'm coming back to the PRK in the next couple of weeks.

I used to live in Pasadena ( 3 yrs ago, and 43 before that) . No fingerprints there. I went to the now defunct B & B guns sales in 2000 and was asked for a fingerprint on ammo for LA then. I gave it to them. It did no good. Every round I load I wipe clean of fingerprints just in case. I remember seeing a report that said the system was a major POS. Der!!!!

It is a crime we have no effective CCW in CA. I have one in KY and I will miss it.

I lived in Bakersfield for a number of years before I left the PRK. No fingerprinting for ammo there and no gun problem either.

PM me and I will do whatever I can to help in a few week when I am back
in the PRK. Sounds like the old Beatles song, "Back in the USSR". Same difference.

Russ

toblerone
August 10, 2004, 03:53 AM
I've never been asked in Contra Costa, S.F. or Oakland, although it has been some time since i've purchased in SF or Oak. Do you need a specific date range?

Jim March
August 10, 2004, 05:26 AM
No, we've got all the data we need on this subject.

Mucho thanks for all participants.

Carnitas
August 10, 2004, 10:59 AM
Jim,

FYI for future requests. There's a California Club on GlockTalk now.

ClonaKilty
August 10, 2004, 12:37 PM
Jim: it seems Ahhnold is very open to getting info from you guys. Is this new or was Davis just as open?

If Ahhnold started this it makes me feel better about him as guv -- at least he's reaching out for al the facts.

Added: please add me to the list of soon-to-be-leaving-CA-because-of-the-gun-laws. And trust me on this, I'm the kind of taxpayer CA WANTS to keep.

BB62
August 10, 2004, 12:49 PM
ClonaKilty,

I'd sure send a letter to Ahnold and let him know of your reasons, in detail - which I presume are not just RKBA reasons? (but regardless...)

Maybe Jim can direct you to the proper party to make sure your note gets read by someone who cares to do more than make a tick mark on a statistics sheet...

Just my 2 cents.


IMHO,
BB62

txgho1911
August 10, 2004, 01:50 PM
Any chance this could also be enough ammo to promote preemtion on Ammo or firearms laws in some respect or other?

Jim March
August 10, 2004, 03:45 PM
Jim: it seems Ahhnold is very open to getting info from you guys. Is this new or was Davis just as open?

This is SO new.

Trust me. Night and day difference.

We did have one very convoluted back-channel into Davis' office, for a while: Assemblyman Rod Wright is a democrat and was an early Davis supporter. Rod is also really pro-RKBA, so while he was in office he basically was our back-channel. Not a very high-bandwidth connection though. Then he left office and we had squat.

If Ahhnold started this it makes me feel better about him as guv -- at least he's reaching out for al the facts.

Yup, and it's even better than that: he's consistently making sure that staffers who KNOW a given subject study the bills in that field as veto candidates for reports to his desk.

Nowhere is this more apparant than on gun bills. But he's doing it across the board. Decisions are getting evaluated on their technical merits, whereas under Davis the FIRST and foremost consideration was always political.

Night and day, folks.

Now, that doesn't mean that Arnold may not put HIS personal political spin on each bill once he has the analysis. OK? Some bills may get past him. SB1140 in particular looks like it might have legs due to the support of the district attorneys, and it's already been severely watered down from it's initial state.

Hmmm.

OK, here's the deal on that thing: right now, if a parent gives a kid PERMISSION to access a gun even when said parent isn't around, and said kid screws up and blows another kid's head off, the parent isn't liable. This is exactly what happened in Placer County. The Placer DA brought a bill to Jack Scott to fix that ONE issue. Scott got all gleeful, greedy and stupid and tacked on a pile of other stuff...the DA was actually upset at that.

*Most* of the Scott additions have been stripped out...for example, under the current revision of SB1140 you're now in good shape as a parent if you keep the gun loaded and locked in a bedside safe or behind a cable lock or similar, OR you keep the gun unloaded and the ammo nowhere near it.

Naturally, we don't want this to pass. One good argument against is that the definition of "loaded" is now being confused with this "ammo proximity" issue. But I suspect it's going to get to Arnold's desk, and I suspect he might pass it.

The situation is MUCH better for SB1152, the ammo registration bill. Y'all have helped there! That one's in big trouble as is SB1733, the Cow Palace gun show ban.

AB50, crapshoot, danged if I know how that one will play out. There's cost problems: the state would have to run a whole new awareness campaign like they did for the SKS, AWs, etc...money is so tight right now that will matter.

BB62
August 17, 2004, 09:21 PM
Jim,

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that the research and results of the ammo sale analysis would be presented in stark contrast to the lying/duplicity/etc. of the antis info.

Is/has their lowlife-like behavior more evident to Ahnold because of this and other efforts?


BB62

Mute
August 18, 2004, 12:45 PM
Jim,

My memory is a little spotty, but a few years back, Pasadena was asking for drivers licences with ammo purchases. They do not do that anymore. I think they might have found it to be less than a stellar idea. I think that would be a good place to check into.

railroader
August 18, 2004, 06:37 PM
I think Mute is right. As I remember Pasadena was keeping records of ammo buyers and they quit doing it because it was a big hassle and wasn't solving crime. mark

BSlacker
August 18, 2004, 07:57 PM
I have purchased ammo in Pomona with out ID. I purchased in San Fernado Valley. Sometimes they took ID sometimes not all at the same place. Also check if you pay by credit card is that ok for the ID deal. :)

Jim March
August 19, 2004, 12:10 AM
Pasadena enacted ammo registration in 1995, revoked it as a waste of time in 1998.

redhead
August 27, 2004, 05:28 PM
This bit of ugliness passed the Assembly yesterday and went back to the Senate for concurrence. I called Sen. Torlakson's Sacto office today and spoke with the staffer that answered the phone. I told her I was opposed, and she said she would deliver my message to him on the floor. For all the good that'll do - Torlakson is virulently anti-gun and never met a gun control law he didn't love. But, gotta make the call anyway.

Sawdust
August 27, 2004, 05:37 PM
Damn...

Well, my senator (McClintock) will never vote for it but, noting the spread from the last Senate vote on this bill, it will pass the Senate.

More letters to Arnie, I guess. :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

Sawdust

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