Best close-quarters defense rifles?


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DHart
August 9, 2004, 04:05 AM
I have a bias toward Marlin 1894 lever rifles and have four of them (.38 spl, .357mag, .44mag, and .45 Colt) they're great rifles. Reliable, powerful, look and feel great.

But I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?

I've been considering a Beretta Storm in .40 or .45 ACP, but what are considered today to be the best short range, close quarters defense rifles? Let's limit the choices to close-quarters use only. (Let's leave out shotguns and longer range weapons.)

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Wildalaska
August 9, 2004, 04:27 AM
M4 carbine

WildwhynotAlaska

Art Eatman
August 9, 2004, 06:42 AM
Tight-group accuracy is unimportant, for your scenario. Quick-handling, as in lightweight and "handy", becomes very important. Reliability is very important.

So, the AR, or AK clones; Minis and GI Carbines come to mind.

Art

Gary G23
August 9, 2004, 07:31 AM
AR-15 carbine, AK-47, AK-74.

nhhillbilly
August 9, 2004, 07:42 AM
I would recomend the M4 also.

Citadel99
August 9, 2004, 08:01 AM
M4 if cost is issue. MP5 if it isn't.

Mark

ShootAndHunt
August 9, 2004, 10:27 AM
Beretta Storm. It is handy and big caliber. M4 is nice, but you won't need that range capability in the close quarters defense.

Roc_Kor
August 9, 2004, 10:52 AM
AK-47
AK-74
AR-15 Carbine
Mini 14
Mini 30
SOCOM 16 .308 (http://springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-socom.shtml) <--LINK

Ktulu
August 9, 2004, 10:59 AM
The M4 and its variants are currently the best CQB weapons on the planet.

EDIT: With the right ammo. Especially in a home where over penetration is an issue.

SOT_II
August 9, 2004, 11:04 AM
The best CQB gun would prolly still be an MP-5SD3.
Rifle would be the G36K.

Often times people confuse best with most widely used...and that's unfortunate.
Most widely used is more a function of politics and cost than actual performance.

Vern Humphrey
August 9, 2004, 11:50 AM
One of the best choices for this scenario is the SKS -- yet no one mentions it.

davek
August 9, 2004, 11:51 AM
^^I was thinking the same thing...Paratrooper, more specifically.

DHart
August 9, 2004, 12:31 PM
Thanks guys... I don't know squat about any of them, so I've got some homework to do....

Is there a particular caliber which has risen to the top of the heap for close quarters carbines?

SOT_II
August 9, 2004, 12:47 PM
You mix a couple things here but here we go.

You say rifle, which implies battle rifle which would mean rifle caliber, then you say carbine. Yes I know many guns that are "carbines" are also of rifle caliber...but then again there are "assault rifles" in the hands of civilians that are only semi-auto again a misnomer.

In the strictest sense for Military and Law Enforcement CQB or MOUT rifles would be rifle caliber...so I would suggest the HKG36K (which you can not buy).

If you want a carbine and depending on who's idea of a carbine you are talking about, it would be a shorter gun shooting a round that is below a rifle caliber in terms of energy. So like 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .30
In this instance this would be the MP5SD3...something you probably will not get and in reality it's a submachine gun, not really a carbine.

You also mention a defensive posture...where as typically many would look at a CQB weapon as offensive in an "attack role"...SWAT going into the building, conter terrorist squads getting hostages out...bla bla bla.

Now if you question is, what's the best home defense guns and you just fancied it up by saying CQB defensive rifle/carbine/gun -buy a pump shotgun with a pistol grip and the shortest legal length that keeps it out of NFA status and call it a day.
Any of the rifle caliber guns are going to rip through your house, the pistol caliber guns can run some of the same risk and are not nearly as reliable as a pump gun.
Think of it this way if you as a home owner are in a situation where you are defending your home with a rifle at a distance. or with a carbine at a shorter distance; 1. It's not CQB and 2. You will probably come up on the wrong side of the law if you shoot someone. The only justification for shooting someone at a distance would be they were shooting at you from that distance first...which precludes CQB.

Thanks guys... I don't know squat about any of them, so I've got some homework to do....

Ktulu
August 9, 2004, 12:55 PM
Here is one sample of some information on the .223 (5.56x45).

http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html

SOT_II
August 9, 2004, 01:05 PM
Oddly written by a company that has a vested interest in selling .223 rifles.

Unfortunately in MOUT and most police departments they are using 5.56 NATO which is a different animal. Differnt powder, different bullets, different chamber.

Here is one sample of some information on the .223 (5.56x45).

F15H
August 10, 2004, 03:10 AM
Armalite AR-10 A4 16"carbine
168 grain TAP ammo
Aimpoint M2 optic and mount
Surefire of your choice

Combine all four from above, and you're the CQB/Home defence "MASTER"
Oh Yeah.....Last but not least learn the words "GET YOU SUM"!!!!

PBIR
August 10, 2004, 07:56 AM
But I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?

The weapon you mentioned would be a great choice. The Storm shoots great, is easily manuverable, give you almost all the mod possibilities of a m4 style setup, and is less expensive. The .45acp is a great defense round, superior to the 5.56 nato for civilian home defense IMHO.

jercamp45
August 10, 2004, 08:15 AM
Normally I'd say AK and be done with it, but there are penetration issues with the round for home defense.
Pistol caliber carbines are pretty good for anything less than 100 meters too, my vote is the MechTech CCU which turns one of my 1911's into a carbine that uses the same ammo outta the same mags as my pistol. The Storm does look interesting, but my pistol battery revolves around 1911's, so I'll simplify in mags and ammo.
If HK comes out with a UMP carbine with standard cap mags and a folding stock post AWB....I'll be looking at one of those for shure.
Never have cared much for the AR series, but it has come along ways and alot of urban SWAT teams are switching over too it......and you have close to 400 meter's at your fingertips. Not a bad all arounder...even for a .22!
The M1 Carbine also gets an honorable mention. With the right mags and the 110 gr HSP.......should be quite good for the role.
Milady has a 10/22, whereas I won't consider it the ultimate...but 10 rds of Stinger at close range should be quite discouraging!
Jercamp45

Bartholomew Roberts
August 10, 2004, 08:41 AM
Oddly written by a company that has a vested interest in selling .223 rifles.

Unfortunately in MOUT and most police departments they are using 5.56 NATO which is a different animal. Differnt powder, different bullets, different chamber.

There is plenty of research (including testing by Gunsite - no fan of the poodleshooter) to support that 5..56mm poses less of an overpenetration risk in urban scenarios than most pistol caliber rounds - even military 5.56mm NATO FMJ. In fact, some of the military rounds fragment quite well.

Here is a good resource for further info on that subject:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/faq/bullet_penetration.html

hso
August 10, 2004, 10:10 AM
AR or AK clones. The AR gets a slight nod over the AK because of multiple uppers allowing both 5.56 and 7.62x39 ammunition usage, but the lower price of the basic AK allows add-ons while staying within the price of a bare AR.

I advised a friend that wanted an entry level assault rifle (that I knew would not become a dedicated gunny due to his photography and astronomy hobbies) to get the AK. Effective, simple add ons that wouldn't break the bank, and a total price, with basic accessories, that would have come in at the same level as the bare AR. He's happy and has an effective weapon.

Other gunnies might choose the AR for it's endless variety of bells and whistles.

Black Snowman
August 10, 2004, 11:12 AM
For home defense, quite a bit differant than CQB, but also largely the same, I chose the Bushmaster M17S with 55 gr HP ammo. Dot sight for all lighting conditions, iron sights for backup. A little heavy but short at 30" and all the power of a 21.5" barrel.

Chose HP ammo for reduced penetration on the walls. Very short length was a major concern due to the small doorways in my house. Not concerned with noise and flash, recieving end will get it worse than me. Live alone, don't have to worry so much about protecting others.

Many people complain about the M17S' history of reliability problems. Even with Wolf ammo mine has been 100% and I trust it to do it's job. It's a bit heavy to be humping around the woods but it's find sitting next to the bed and fun at the range. Seen them used for as little as $500 at gun shows.

Thrash1982
August 10, 2004, 11:26 AM
The Beretta Storm is a great, handy little carbine. Lightweight and modifiable. Easy to attach lights or lasers if you want. If you want a pistol caliber and want to go cheaper a high-point carbine might be worth looking into.

moorerwc
August 10, 2004, 11:44 AM
.556 NATO Carbine in 1/7" twist with appropriate @77 grn. ammo.

Far second choice .30 M1 Carbine with soft points.

I don't know much about the interior wall penetration of the newer 6.8 SPC and .308 loads.

Apparently not everyone has gotten the memo about there being much less risk of overpenetration in common building materials with the appropriate loads in .556--less risk to others in the building than with any pistol ammo or shotguns--kinda important to me.

Colt M4 for me come September and I will gladly push the 870P further back in the safe.

Pistol caliber carbines to me, having previously prayed for a Glock model, are now considered fun plinking toys. I don't have money for toys while I'm still building my defensive battery. Pistol calibers are a necessary evil used to get to something more substantial like a .556.

-Chad

SOT_II
August 10, 2004, 11:57 AM
Ummm that memo that you are talking about is barely proved, it talks about .223 not .556 (which I would imagine you mean to be 5.56) and having seem the practical ramifications of these situations...it just ain't true.

To the fellow that says, don't miss...yeah in a perfect world...get an adreneline dump running in your body and you'll be lucky to even hit the wall, let alone the bad guy. If you train 4 or 5 hours a day...yeah your chance of missing is gonna be pretty small....if you don't don't bet on not missing...it's a fools game.


Apparently not everyone has gotten the memo about there being much less risk of overpenetration in common building materials with the appropriate loads in .556--less risk to others in the building than with any pistol ammo or shotguns--kinda important to me.

SOT_II
August 10, 2004, 12:05 PM
Refernces the same data set....again not really difinitive.
It has been proven time and time again that the FBI and lots of the Military's testing is flawed....lest we forget the push of the 9mm as the superior round for law enforcment and military....oddly after all the FBI testing and Army testing the choices change with more knowledge.
If you wanna defend your house with 5.56 or .223, just make sure you don't have glass in it, and that the sheet rock is packed as in the FBI experiment, ok.



There is plenty of research (including testing by Gunsite - no fan of the poodleshooter) to support that 5..56mm poses less of an overpenetration risk in urban scenarios than most pistol caliber rounds - even military 5.56mm NATO FMJ. In fact, some of the military rounds fragment quite well.

Here is a good resource for further info on that subject:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/fa...enetration.html

saltydog452
August 10, 2004, 12:36 PM
I dunno if there is a 'best' for anything. Unless you live somewhere your closest neighbor is a mile or two away, or contleplating a new 'action hero' movie script, you might wanna consider either a smooth bore or a shoulder arm chambered for a pistol caliber.

Rifles have longer range and more power. And you are responsible for all of it.


I like my model 92.

salty.

saltydog452
August 10, 2004, 12:50 PM
Sorry pal, my previous post was not within the scope of your question.

I guess I was responding to some of the 'replys' to your question, rather than what you asked.

salty.

Doug S
August 10, 2004, 01:06 PM
AK & SKS (although SKS is a little long in tight quarters). Both reliable & cheap to stock ammo.

JShirley
August 11, 2004, 02:18 AM
I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?


Good shotgun with appropriate ammunition. I personally use reduced recoil slugs almost exclusively, at this point.

AR in 5.56. I don't love the platform, but they are ergonomic, have good sights, and ammo is plentiful.

Autoloading .308 with 20" or less barrel. I lean towards the FAL, but there are carbine versions of AR-10 and M1A.

With any of these, don't listen to anonymous people telling how the rounds will behave; go out with a decent medium, and put some rounds into it. Look at your penetration, and make an informed decision based on your ability with the platform, and the results you get. I believe you would find this especially true with the varmint rounds you would fire from your .308 rifle or carbine, and fairly true of the 12 gauge slugs, as well.

Part of the your decision process will be in weighing your ability to rapidly put rounds downrange, while considering the power of each round. Most .308 rifles will not be as light as .223 rifles, but each round hits harder. Would you prefer to fire 2x with a .223, or once with a .308? You have to choose a defensive weapon theory, hopefully matched with practical experience firing what you believe your weapon of choice to be.

Good luck,

John

cpileri
August 11, 2004, 06:13 AM
If you are still serious about not considering shotguns and longer range weapons, try the 9mm FAL carbine. here:
http://www.rhinelandarms.com/fal9/fal9mm.htm

Personally, its on my list only to be able to use the 71-rd Suomi drums! But loaded with RA9T Winchester Ranger Talon or something it should be a super rifle for the application you specified. After 9/14 put a folding stock on it, get a 16" bbl, and a flash hider or legal suppressor if you can afford it and it should be a quiet, flashless, 'I can't believe I still have so much ammo left, Honey' type of tool!
C-

NEtracker
August 11, 2004, 10:33 AM
A good 12 guage.
AR15 M4gery/carbine (but be aware of what's beyond the target!)

DHart
August 11, 2004, 01:24 PM
Hey... I never said I wouldn't consider a 12-gauge. In fact I have three of them and they're always right close at hand! My first choice! But I'm interested in knowing more about the close quarters rifles for defense, that's all.

PBIR
August 11, 2004, 01:51 PM
Don't let anyone fool you, a pistol caliber carbine (especially .45 acp ;) ) would be a fine choice in the scenario you outlined. I've seen much more than a few guys hit with pistol calibers go directly to the morgue, do not pass the hospital, do not collect $200. Lots of good choices listed here, but the Beretta Storm still has most beat by a mile when you look at the price and versatility.

VaughnT
August 11, 2004, 04:18 PM
Well, I would love to have an AR in .223/5.56, and I will once september rolls by. There's something really cool about that carbine and one will be mine.

Having said that, my primary home-defense weapon is the Marlin Camp Carbine M45. Short, light, accurate -> she does everything I could ask in terms of defense and doesn't have any stigma attached to her. Loaded with Speer Gold Dot +P hollowpoints, she isn't something I'd like to stand in front of.

The only downside, and one reason I sorta regret the purchase, is that there really is not a single thing you can buy to put on this weapon. Seriously, folks, you can't find a barrel shroud or better sights or different stocks (except the Choate folder) or nuthin! That sucks more than I can ever tell you.

What's the point of having this nifty little shooter if you can't trick it out with CQB doodads? Where can I hang my illumination device? I can't even get a fiberoptic front sight!!!

:fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead:


I'm thinking an M1Carbine is in my future. That's got plenty of cool factor and will do the job, for sure, with a thirty-round stick stuck in it.

bluecowdawg
August 11, 2004, 04:18 PM
an older model marlin m60 .22lr with 18 rounds. i dont think anyone would put up much fight after catching that much lead, and chances of the rounds overpenetrating some one would not be very high

RevDisk
August 11, 2004, 04:20 PM
But I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?

I've been considering a Beretta Storm in .40 or .45 ACP, but what are considered today to be the best short range, close quarters defense rifles? Let's limit the choices to close-quarters use only. (Let's leave out shotguns and longer range weapons.)




Depends on the person, obviously. There is no "best", there are only personal preferences, of course. Use what you're comfortable and accurate with.

If I was not restricted whatsoever, my preference be a UMP-45 select fire. With my current weaponry, a pistol and an AK clone would work fine. In most cases, any carbine would do the job.


My only problem with the M-4 is that they tend to break too easily when you beat something/someone with it.

mrstang01
August 11, 2004, 11:11 PM
VaughnT, I agree with you, but I've been looking for a folder to put on my Camp 45 when the AWB dies, and haven't been able to find one of those either. The wood stock on mine is too pretty for CQB activities, and I think it would be super handy with a folder.

I'd like to see someone come out with new folders for it, but doubt it will happen since Marlin quit making them. Seems like there's a market for them, not sure what Marlin was thinking.

Having said that, my primary home-defense weapon is the Marlin Camp Carbine M45. Short, light, accurate -> she does everything I could ask in terms of defense and doesn't have any stigma attached to her. Loaded with Speer Gold Dot +P hollowpoints, she isn't something I'd like to stand in front of.

Hand_Rifle_Guy
August 12, 2004, 01:11 PM
Similar to the Marlin Camp series are the Ruger PC-9 and PC-40 rifles. They run on readily available pistol mags, and are reputedly very handy and easy to use/hit with without fearing over-penetration. Selection of proper ammo can help this, of course, to wit: don't load yer rifle with fmj's!

In a similar vein is the Kel-tec Sub-2000, which as I understand it can be ordered with a mag-well to fit any given available popular autoloading pistol such as Glock, H&K, Springfield, Witness, S&W, etc.

Like the Marlin Camps, these semi-auto pistol-caliber guns have almost no recoil, alllowing for swift, controlled, and above all accurate fire, as any given rifle is much, MUCH easier to shoot accurately than any pistol, which is the entire point of the M-1 carbine. Even at across-the-room distances, "you can't miss fast enough with a handgun," as all it takes is a slight hand movement to re-direct the barrel. With their 16" barrels, these carbines are also short enough to not hinder movement within the close confines of the home interior whilst checking out those ominous "bumps in the night." At the same time, the 'longer than a handgun' length enhances the already low-powered ballistics of all pistol rounds. Anoither saving grace is that the longer barrels are a bit quieter, and less damaging to hearing, than the usual 5-ish inch barrel of the typical handgun, and are a LOT quieter than just about all of the rifle rounds.

Additionally, the long guns provide ample space for mounting a light, making the task of target identification a bit simpler, an important factor in home defense when you don't want to shoot the family dog or the wayward teenage son sneaking in late.

I suppose you could add the Ruger semi-auto .44 mag Deerfield carbine to this short list, but it's 'almost a high-powered gun' ammunition pressure range makes for real worries about significant overpenetration and hearing loss, although concerns arbout shooting your next-door neighbor are a lot less than you'd get with a 7.62 x 39 or a .30-30.

DHart
August 12, 2004, 01:27 PM
Hand_Rifle... do you know of any .357mag or .44mag ammo that was designed to be optimum defense loads from 16" carbines? I haven't seen any ammo manufacturer state that they have any pistol caliber loads which were designed for optimal expansion and penetration from short barrel carbines.

cslinger
August 12, 2004, 01:28 PM
We have lots of choices. We have AR's and AK's that we could go to at a moments notice but in reality I would most likely grab my Remington 870 Marine Magnum and Sheslinger would grab her Benelli Nova assuming that a handgun will most likely be the primary weapon at hand.

All that being said I am currently trying to get around to testing Win White box HP ammo through the following as I think it would make a dandy little .45 caliber HD carbine.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1177179

Our USP with M3 conversion and KOBRA. Picture courtesy of Oleg Volk.

Hand_Rifle_Guy
August 12, 2004, 02:59 PM
There's a gun in ^that^ picture? I hadn't noticed...;)

Dhart: Don't know of any off the top of my head, but I'm not neccessarily up on the latest iterations offered. Handgun ammo is set up to function optimally in handguns. Out of a carbine barrel, I imagine some types of bullets could actually be overdriven, which could limit penetration in lighter-bullet loadings for the .357. Heavier-bullet hunting loads at high velocities are deliberately designed to limit expansion in order to assure penetration to help the marginal-for-game .357 be more reliable. Humans are a bit thinner and are not as tough as deer, and I would be concerned about through-and-through shots. However, the additional speed in the lighter jhp loads, while potentialy limiting penetration due to violent bullet expansion and fragmentation, on the other hand deliver additional energy to the target, and effectively hit harder. Whether or not that would actually prove to be more effective at stopping a criminal assualt is something I'm not informed enough on to take other than a guess at. More definitive answers would require testing involving measuring the amount of energy transfer to some sort of ballistic pendulum set-up using a reliable tissue simulant, to wit shooting blocks of meat or gelatin (or maybe stacked rabbits, if you want to get picky about it. ;)) that are positioned on a hanging platform of some sort, observing and recording the results, and then extrapolating the results on criminals from that. (Oi! That's a bunch of work! Anybody gotta research grant?) It's a neat idea, but it's a bit beyond my resources at the moment.

For the .44 mag, I usually think in terms of any given load absolutely will go all the way through a human being shot with it, with considerable leftover velocity and energy. That's one of the reasons .44 mag usually isn't considered the best choice for home/self defense. The .44 was developed as a hunting round, and humans can be thought of as thin-skinned game in that sense. There are several "medium velocity" loadings available for the .44 that are aimed at the defense market, but I imagine tacking on an additional 300-400 fps out of a rifle barrel would sort of defeat the purpose of the slower load. In that particular instance, I'd probably go with a premium-grade .44 special self-defense loading that's got a bullet well-known for having a very low-velocity threshold of expansion such as the Remington Golden sabre, and carry some faith in the slower-but-heavier large bullet diameter to help cover the "if-it-doesn't-expand" contingency without being so concerned I'm going to drill the neighbors. "Big bullets let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood."---Elmer Kieth.

Beyond that, and I'm in WAYYY over my head. I'm no terminal ballistics expert. Heck, I'm probably off the deep end allready...

Ash
August 12, 2004, 09:26 PM
Stick with a lever-action. I'm an AK fan, but in the residence or for home-defense, especially in disaster situations where you defend against looters, a nice lever-action gun isn't going to look as evil as an AK or AR or any H&K design. The 30-30 beats 7.62x39 and a good Marlin will be utterly reliable. Plus, should you have to go to court, a lever action makes you look like anyone else, whereas an assault rifle makes you out to be some kook militia type. Now, that wasn't a bash against militias or anything along those lines. However, a malicious prosecutor could easily paint a picture that could frighten a jury. If that's just too old school, stick with a Ruger Mini-14 or 30 as those look more benign than an AK, even if accuracy is basically the same.

Now, I've owned my share of FAL's, SKS's, and AK's so this isn't an attack against them. It is only an observation about perceptions. An AKM can be perceived as something of great evil whereas a lever gun looks like what grandpa used to hunt with and what hangs so nicely above a mantle. The same things goes with a shot-gun. Don't deck it out in trench-warfare gadgets such as a heat shield and a bayonet lug nor pistol grip. Get a nice, short-barreled wood-stocked pump that looks legitimately like something you might take duck hunting. That way if you do have to defend home and hearth, it's with your trusty sportsmans gun and not a street-sweeper (even if the only differenced between the two is cosmetic). In my neck of the country where hurricanes happen, I am always ready to defend my home should the worst happen (I lived through Hurricane Fredrick). But it is much easier to look like an upright citizen with a Marlin than with an AK. And, in doing so, you protect your rights to own the AK by not scaring too many voters.

Ash

natedog
August 12, 2004, 09:32 PM
Show me a few examples where the type of firearm (non-NFA) used in self-defense made a difference in the ruling of a defensive shoot, and I'll buy that. A clean shoot is a clean shoot.

444
August 12, 2004, 09:42 PM
Man, talk about some axes to grind.

Let me give you a sound piece of advice: when you ask a question like this on the internet, everyone will give their opinion (not facts). Most of the time their answer will be the same answer as they would give to the question of what is their faviorite gun. In other words, the answers are based on emotion rather than fact.
If you want an answer based MORE on fact, look at what the professionals (the people doing this for a living) use and what the people that train them recommend.


Note: Bring the sights to your eye, not your eye to the sights.

JShirley
August 12, 2004, 11:45 PM
I suppose you could add the Ruger semi-auto .44 mag Deerfield carbine ...although concerns arbout shooting your next-door neighbor are a lot less than you'd get with a 7.62 x 39 or a .30-30.

It seems to me that a ballistic-tip 125-grain .308 traveling about 2400 fps would penetrate considerably less than a 240 grain .429 traveling more slowly.

John

Wildalaska
August 13, 2004, 12:00 AM
Opening this up to sub guns are we? Gimme a Sterling then, the ultimate bullet hose....

WildandprovenincombattooAlaska

Ash
August 13, 2004, 07:43 AM
Indeed, I have no imperical data to support my supposition. Yet, we all know what gets demonized, what gets condemned, and what gets all the attention for banning importation and production. It remains a fact that people will be aghast when you tell them that a place was held up by an AK-47, but if they used a 30-30, you never hear mention of the rifle. I keep an M1A because I believe the 2nd Ammendment exists for the defense of the country as well as personal defense, and should a SHTF scenario occur, I would rather have it over my Marlin any day.

But the Branch Davidians were not burned out because of a collection of lever-actions and hunting rifles.

Ash

MrMurphy
August 13, 2004, 08:44 AM
Getting back to the subject........


The AR-15 with a 16.5" barrel and softpoint loads will penetrate body armor yet hitting a wall will not penetrate as much as a pistol caliber JHP. Low recoil, high efficiency, just LOUD!

The 9mm, .40 or .45 pistol caliber carbines will work well, they are semiauto-only submachine guns in basic form and function for the most part. The Beretta Storm, Keltec Sub2000, Ruger PC carbines all work well.

The M1 carbine is between rifle and pistol in power, with softpoint loads the .30 carbine will definitely do the job. There are lots of dead Germans, Chinese, Koreans and Vietnamese to prove this point. You may have to hit him two or three times at 100+ yards, but at close range, the power equivalent with softpoints is equivalent to a .357 Magnum.

A .357 lever action would also do the trick if it's what you had at hand.

The AK and SKS will certainly put the man down but without softpoint loads etc will overpenetrate a great deal. I kept an AK for house defense next to my 12ga but I also had a bunch of fields around my place (basically a free fire zone) at the time.


The one time I saw an AK used defensively 20 rounds were fired and the attention was on the fact two bangers tried to rob the guy (Mistaken identity) and he sent them packing. He lived in an apt complex so there were a lot of stray 7.62's flying around but surprisingly he didn't hit ANYONE with a stray round (and they were all over the place)... I know the photographer from my station who covered it, a retired platoon sergeant of the 3rd ID and he said it looked like a fire team had hit the place.

44
August 13, 2004, 06:24 PM
A lot of this has already been mentioned, but if a civilian wants to use a rifle for self defense within the existing self defense rules (probably well inside 25 yards) seems like the pistol cartridge carbine might almost be the only one he should consider.

Compared to battle rifles they can be short, lightweight and fast, have less indoor blast, less chance of serious over-penetration with the right bullets - with the big advantage of hits being easier than with a handgun, so there's less chance of putting stray bullets into the neighborhood, or military bullets into the next county. As someone mentioned, these could be your total undoing.

Personally, I would pick an accurate lightweight gun that RELIABLY shoots one of the top-stopper self defense super-expanding hollowpoints in 9mm, 40, 45acp, or 357. No FMJ or solid bullets because of their penetration and ricochet. 44

benEzra
August 13, 2004, 09:41 PM
As long as the firearm is reasonably compact and capable of firing reasonably fast followup shots, the best one is probably the one you have the most practice with.:)

Marshall
August 13, 2004, 09:45 PM
.30 Carbine or a .444/.450 Marlin Lever Gun. :D

DHart
August 13, 2004, 11:54 PM
44... though the .44mag carbine is more powerful than might be desired, if you had to pick one or two FACTORY ammo rounds for defense against human evil-doers - using a 16.5" Trapper lever rifle, what would they be? I know that through and through penetration is almost a certainty with this caliber, but there must be a factory load or two that when fired through a Trapper would expand in human tissue quite significantly, and exit without a huge amount of velocity remaining... any thoughts?

Here are some of the available factory rounds:

Pro-Load Gold Dot Tactical Lite ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1450
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>934

Winchester Supreme Partition Gold - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1630
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Energy >>>1475

Speer Gold Dot ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1850
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1595

Speer Gold Dot ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1800
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1726
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1950
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Energy >>>1520

Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1900
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Energy >>>1603

Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1750
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Energy >>>1632

Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1550
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Energy >>>1600

Winchester Super X Silvertip - Ballistics based on RIFLE barrel
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Velocity >>>1580
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Energy >>>1164

44
August 14, 2004, 12:16 AM
DHart -

I have the same problem to solve because I picked the 44mag Trapper, as I guess you did too. I can use it on the trail, and maybe at home too, if I can find the right ammo. Let me take a look at your list. Thanks. 44

JShirley
August 14, 2004, 12:21 AM
Compared to battle rifles they can be short, lightweight and fast, have less indoor blast, less chance of serious over-penetration with the right bullets

What about compared to the lighter-weight intermediate rounds such as .223 and 7.62x39mm? My personal testing, which only took me a couple minutes, some ear protection, some jugs of water and a few boxes of 9mm and .223 ammo- and, of course, carbines in each caliber- led me to believe the right .223 penetrates less than 9mm. Are you including these rounds, or sticking to the established definition of battle rifle calibers?

John

DHart
August 14, 2004, 01:47 AM
44... Did you get the Rossi 1892 Trapper? Do you love it? I think the trapper size is awesome. I bought a Marlin 1894SS which has a 20" barrel, but I'm thinking I might have it cut back to 16.5" (Trapper length). I would only use the gun as a fun gun, camp gun, possible defense against badguys or possibly, defense against animals. I just want to use factory ammo, not reload my own.

I'll bet there are quite a few of us with .44mag rifles who would like to find a medium (not hot) loading in .44mag for defense purposes. Since nearly all the factory rounds I looked at had given ballistics based on pistol lengths, I arbitarily added 400 fps to the factory listed fps to try to estimate what might be expected from a 16" barrel. Of course 400 might be a little high or low as a modifier, depending on the specifics of each load... but I had to use something to get a general idea of the velocities and energies which might be obtained from a carbine.

I think a light (let's say 180 to 210 gr.) JHP bullet in .44mag might tend to almost explode on impact at rifle velocities, whereas the heavy 300 gr. JSP cartridges might not expand nearly enough before penetrating through... so I'm guessing that perhaps the mid-weight 240gr. JHP with bonded jackets (like the GoldDot, Supreme Partition, or XTP) might be the best compromise for defense use against human adversaries. Most likely, full penetration in heavy-set, heavily clothed targets is practically assured and that's a very good thing as long as the remaining energy is not too great after exit. I'm no expert, that's for sure., but seeking educated and experienced opinions.

And to those who would suggest it, yes, I agree that a 12-gauge is ideal for close range defense and I've got a Mossberg 500A Persuader which I really like.

KRAUTGUNNER
August 14, 2004, 03:12 AM
I suggest the M1 Carbine. Of course with a hot handload and a hollowpoint bullet.

44
August 14, 2004, 09:29 AM
I left out the 223 because of blast, and the 30 Carbine because of over-penetration. I have both of them.

Right now my main choice would be the various 9mm +P and +P+ 115gr and 124gr rounds. They benefit from the carbine 16" length, and most of the bullets really flatten out at carbine velocity. Too much, in some cases, probably. But 9mm puts lots of ammo in the gun (and in your pockets) with very little added weight.

There are other 9mm rounds that work too. Mainly the fairly recently developed ones. So I've read. The 9mm carbine ballistics are supposed to be much like the Fed 125gr 357 at the muzzle of a 4" barrel. (Fed p/n 357B).

I might buy a Ruger PC9 and try it out for a year or so.

My 44mag carbine is a Winchester 94. I carry it in the woods with the Speer 270gr GDSP. One thing I like about the lever carbines is that they can always be kept topped off. Always full.

As for self defense, the 44mag should have tremendous potential, but I have not seen any good self defense ammo test results. Marshall and Sanow have the factory Win 210gr Silvertip at 93% from a handgun. Maybe pre-frags like the Glasers, MagSafe, BeeSafe, or Quik Shok are the answer.

On DHart's ammo list, all of the rounds look like they might have excessive energy / penetration from a carbine. But I'm no ammo expert. I'm just learning about all these things myself, and I appreciate the knowledge available here on HighRoad. 44

-------------------------------------

Damon
August 14, 2004, 10:35 AM
I would use an M4-style AR15 with a light and sling.

Med 10
August 14, 2004, 11:26 AM
Another vote for a pistol caliber carbine. However I would feel more than well armed with a quality semiauto handgun in an appropriate caliber.

tex_n_cal
August 15, 2004, 02:46 AM
Hmmm...I saw a Thompson the other day (semi-auto) while the real thing(full auto) might be better they still seem pretty handy.

saltydog452
August 15, 2004, 02:52 AM
Did you consider 44 Special?

salty.

DHart
August 15, 2004, 03:34 AM
Salty... unfortunately, the factory .44spl loads all seem to be designed for short pistols... fast powder, modest charge... while I certainly wouldn't want to stand in front of a Trapper loaded with 44 spl., it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence as a defense load when compared to .357, .45Colt, and of course .44mag, which is remarkably (almost too much so) potent in a carbine. Yes, .44spl bullets have killed a lot of men, but I think it would take hand-loading the .44spl round to get something truly inspiring... the factory offerings just seem too light.

tex_n_cal
August 15, 2004, 09:29 AM
Cor-Bon makes a 165gr 44mag load that goes only 1300 fps out of a pistol; it's intended as a mid-range load. I expect it would be more expansive when fired from a pistol. I think that is about the only mid-range defensive load made for the 44.

Some of the tougher JHP bullets, like the Sierra, or the Nosler Partition, are known for being marginal on expansion out of a pistol. They ought to expand pretty nicely out of a 16" barrel.

Does anyone know of any bullet test results for pistol loads fired from Carbines? That info would be pretty informative.

44
August 15, 2004, 11:06 AM
I found this comparison searching...Ruger PC 9 weight...on Google:


9mm Colt Commander (4 1/2" barrel) vs Marlin Camp Carbine (16 1/2" barrel)

Load........Commander....Carbine.....Difference

CCI
115 gr. JHP...1175 fps...1318 fps .....+143 fps
124 gr. JHP...1098 fps...1292 fps..... +194 fps
147 gr. JHP...962 fps.......987 fps..... + 25 fps

BLACK HILLS
115 gr. JHP...1145 fps...1205 fps .....+ 60 fps
124 gr. JHP...1148 fps...1296 fps .....+148 fps
147 gr. JHP...1017 fps...1047 fps .....+ 30 fps
147 gr. FMJ ....930 fps...1050 fps .....+120 fps

SPANISH
113 gr. JFP...1235 fps....1369 fps .....+134 fps

He says "The Carbine averaged 107 fps faster than the handgun."

He says: "Here's the plus to that velocity situation. Expanding bullets designed around handgun velocities are still basically moving at handgun velocities. They shouldn't over expand or under penetrate."

----------------- 44 --------------------

JShirley
August 15, 2004, 12:33 PM
44mag should have tremendous potential, but I have not seen any good self defense ammo

What about the 185 grain JHP moving at ungodly velocities from a pistol? Anyone fired this from carbines into test media?

John

444
August 15, 2004, 01:24 PM
It has been my experience that the 9mm Luger round benefits very little from a carbine length barrel. Here is a thread I posted with my chrono results between various barrel lengths and varous loads: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45283&highlight=chrono

In my very uninformed opinion, I think the .44 mag out of a carbine is way excessive for use as a home defense weapon. If I had one and was determined to use it for home defense, I would definitely be using a light .44 Special load, which is more than adequate. You might be interested in reading some of Elmer Keith's writings about his experiences with the .44 Special round: in some cases loaded with black powder. In particular, his famous story about shooting at a cabin out in the middle of no where using a handgun in .44 Special at some extremly long range: I think it was like 600 yards. When he went up to look inside the cabin, the bullets had penetrated an iron bed. He makes the observation that the .44 Special would certainly completely penetrate any human AT THAT RANGE. Now I haven't personally tried it, but Elmer Keith had a lot of experience behind him and I tend to put a lot of faith in what he says.

As I mentioned before: the professionals are using the 5.56/223 round. They are quickly abandoned the pistol caliber cartriges in weapons like the HK MP5 for carbines in 5.56/223. This was done after a fair amount of testing by recognized authorities on the subject. They have seen the results of actual field use of both platforms and have access to data throughout the world on the performance of the various cartridges. Personally, I have seen many people shot with handgun rounds, and a few people shot with rounds such as the 5.56/223 and the 7.62x39 and there is no comparison. I have also shot animals with both handguns and rifles in pistol calibers as well as .223/5.56 and there is no comparison.
IMO, the shotgun is the way to go, but, if you choose to use a rifle - the current state of the art is well known: there is no reason to speculate or re-invent the wheel.

JShirley
August 15, 2004, 02:13 PM
I left out the 223 because of blast

And full-power battle rifles will have less?

444, I do agree that a .223 will typically do a better job of stopping an adversary than virtually all pistol calibers, but I don't agree with your reasoning about the .44. I somehow doubt that ole' Elmer was using lightly built expanding rounds. What do you think? As well, we both know that low velocity, high SD, and a sturdy bullet= deep penetration. I *would* be quite interested in seeing what a light bullet at high velocities would do...of course, I guess I could just use a .223...

John

DHart
August 15, 2004, 02:33 PM
It's nice to see that there is a moderate gain in performance from the carbine length barrel... therefore the bullet itself should hit a little harder and still perform as designed.

I had a look at a few of the modern semi-auto "assault-rifles" and found that to my taste, they just don't appeal to me, capable as they are. So I'm turning my focus back to the carbines which stir my soul... lever rifles.

While I'm sure the AR's etc. in .223 do a very good job, the pistol caliber carbines can do the job well (especially for an average citizen just looking for a nice acerage rifle) and some of us prefer the older style of weapon and the calibers... my favorite is .45Colt and several factory defense oriented .45Colt rounds (CorBon 200gr. JHP, Speer 250gr. GoldDot, WW Silvertip) should perform quite well in a .45Colt Trapper lever rifle... which is my preference.

I appreciate all the suggestions and viewpoints!

444
August 15, 2004, 02:40 PM
I would guess that Elmer was using cast lead bullets: who knows what alloy he was using. I doubt that wheel weights had even been invented at that point :D

I don't know about light weight, high velocity jacketed bullets in the .44 mag. in this context. I have shot them out of a handgun, but never out of a carbine. I can tell you that they will blow a jackrabbit to bits :D . There is no question that they would work as far as stoping the home invader with pretty spectacular results. The point I was making was, I think that the .44 mag out of a carbine would be over-kill. I would guess that a 180 grain bullet, pushed hard out of a .44 mag carbine would be very close to a .30-30. Of course you have to also consider that the handgun bullet probably wasn't designed for the kind of velocity we are talking about, so it might come apart pretty readily which in this case would be a good thing.
I guess if all you had was a carbine in .44 mag, it might be something worthwhile to explore.

SOT_II
August 15, 2004, 02:45 PM
I would love to know more about your test procedure, the equipment used, the distance from muzzle. Our experience has been dramatically different with factory loads.

And interestingly, you must not be selling battle rifles and submachine guns in that we sell a TON more UMP's and MP-5's than G36's. The MAIN reason that our clients are buying anything in 5.56 is that they are looking for soft armor defeating rounds. Not because they actually think that the rounds are safer in urban environments. In "real world" shootouts 5.56 is much more dangerous in urban environments...if unchallenged by semi-hard material the round will go thousands of feet with a high lethality.

Again everyone goes back to the FBI tests without realizing that the actual test criteria was not designed to actually evidence what is found in a house but what would work to satisfy a means to an end to support a weapons change.

Same thing happened in the 9mm and .45 ACP debate when the FBI decided that the 9mm was far superior as a defensive round. Only 5 years later they were outfitting with the .40 S&W and they HRT were going BACK to the .45 ACP.

The 5.56 is being adopted because the role of police departments is changing to a semi-military role. Criminals wearing body armor (read: CA bank robbers), concerns of having to engage cars and trucks and to defend against terrorists, and cross compatibility between the police and military is the driving force.


"It has been my experience that the 9mm Luger round benefits very little from a carbine length barrel. Here is a thread I posted with my chrono results between various barrel lengths and varous loads: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...ighlight=chrono"

444
August 15, 2004, 03:00 PM
"I would love to know more about your test procedure, the equipment used, the distance from muzzle."

I am assuming you are talking about the 9mm data: all that is listed in the post: equipment used: shooting chrony. Guns and loads are listed. Distance from the muzzle is listed: 15'.

"if unchallenged by semi-hard material the round will go thousands of feet with a high lethality."
Yeah, I think that is pretty much of a given. That is pretty much what rifles and bullets were designed for. If you shoot at a target, thousands of feet away, and it doesn't hit anything in between, it will have a high lethality. However, this thread is discussing the use of a rifle for home defense. I am making a guess here that most of us are talking about shooting it inside a structure, most likely a house built of common building materials. Thus we are interested in how the bullet will perform when hitting a human, and what happens to the bullet after it exits the body or what it will do after a miss and it hits these common building materials.

I don't know a whole lot about these FBI tests. The tests I am referring to were passed out at the Gunsite basic and advanced carbine classes and were done by Gary Roberts and Special Agent Michael Bullian as well as another test done by the Snohomish County Sheriff's Department. In addition I have read of other studies but I can't cite any references. I am also basing this in part on my own experiences firing high velocity rifle rounds and various handgun rounds at animals and various pieces of junk over the years.

The Last Confederate
August 15, 2004, 03:24 PM
M1 Carbine > M4


A skeletonized stocked, forward optics m1 carbine with hollow points will
outperform an AR15 out to 200 yards. It will perform as well as a Garand or M14.

Think about this. You buy a Ruger 10/22 .22 win mag rifle. You shape the strong hand grip. You drill lighening holes into the stock. You paint it battleship gray. Next, you have a gunsmith (can pick up the telephone and have Bain and Davis, Duarte, CA do it for you) send you a factory barrel with a forward, weaver scope mount. Next you put on a variable pistol scope.

The facory barrel comes off in about a minute. You unscrew the two retaining screws, put on the new barrel and use your screwdriver again.

A .223 is nothing but a .22 win mag out to 125 yards.

You can shoot birds, squirrels, deer and bigger with a ..22 win mag.

Lots are generally only 70 feet in urban areas. People run between buildings and do not stand out like Pacman. The maximum distance across a four lane street with curb parking and set back of buildings from the street is about 200 feet. Am I telling you something?

Low power optics allow you to see into shadows in the day and see without lights or even moonlight at night (assuming a few stars out). How about a precision rifle class at 2 am using low power Leupold optics and kill shots on moving targets at a laser measured 240 yards using M1As.

I really don't see much benefit of a shotgun over a rifle. I do keep a bunch of 870s around for unknowning neighbors. I can train a 15 year old girl how to load and fire in 15 minutes. Use the neighbors as cannon fodder. Horrible thought? What were they going to use you for - to put you in harm's way. and sacrifice you ofcourse.

DHart
August 15, 2004, 03:34 PM
Considering a close range use for a home owner, not necessarily in a densely packed urban environment, but perhaps more rural, I think a .45Colt lever carbine with 16" barrel would make an excellent defense weapon. If we assume that a factory .45Colt defense load (CorBon, Speer GoldDot, etc.) might increase velocity by 150 fps when fired from a 16" barrel vs. the published velocities out of a 5" pistol, the following data would result:

CorBon EST ballistics with 16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
45C200/20 45Colt 200gr JHP Vel >>> 1225
45C200/20 45Colt 200gr JHP Energy >>>694

Georgia Arms GoldDot JHP EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. vel increase of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
G45LE 45Colt 200gr GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1225
G45LE 45Colt 200gr GoldDotJHP Energy >>>694

Georgia Arms JHP EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. vel increase of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
G45new 45Colt 260gr JHP Vel >>>1150
G45new 45Colt 260gr JHP Energy >>>763

Speer Gold Dot EST ballistics with 16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
23984 45Colt 250gr GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1050
23984 45Colt 250gr GoldDotJHP Energy >>>612

Winchester Super X - EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
X45CSHP2 45Colt 255gr SilverTipHP Vel >>>1070
X45CSHP2 45Colt 255gr SilverTipHP Energy >>>648


These numbers look pretty darned good for home defense. Not so sure about dealing with armored bank robbers or terrorists, but for home defense against the average "intruder" plenty of power without being too much.

The bonded GoldDot bullet is likely to hold together quite well and since the velocities are not dramatically higher than the bullets were designed to expand at, terminal bullet performance is likely to be very good. Penetration should also be very good (desireable in my view). A semi-hot and semi-heavy .45Colt from a carbine just inspires confidence in me somehow. This is the direction I am leaning toward for myself... though other choices are certainly as good or better.

tex_n_cal
August 15, 2004, 04:33 PM
Do recall that 100 fps can make a big difference in pistol bullet expansion. It's pretty well known that in .45 ACP, bullets that work fine out of a 5" Gov't model sometimes don't expand out of an Officer's model. That amounts to only about 80fps difference, as I've chrono'd Fed HS out of both guns.

.22 Magnum Rimfire...Hmmm...

Oh, I'm getting an idea...Now what size action is that?

...Ya think a BG would say ouch when shot by a .17 HMR ? I think we solved an overpenetration issue, too.

I believe we may have a winner...and I finally have a reason to buy one.:D

SOT_II
August 15, 2004, 05:54 PM
The gunsite information is quoted directly from the FBI tests of "layerd" 5/8 inch sheet rock. They built a shoot box with layers of sheet rock with equal gaps between them. The shot various rounds at various distances and measured penetration.

So the 9mm would go through (let say) six panels, and the .5.56 would go through maybe 5 or would tumble so badly they would shoot out of the side of the box...and that was a "success".

Unfortunately if you built a "normal" home wall and shot through it...the results would be entirely the opposite.
The 9mm embeds in the outer wall in many cases...the 5.56 would sail right theough and end up about 200 yards down range. Many companies and departments followed the test criteria and it supported exactly what the FBI said. When we did our tests were near identical, but when we built a simulated house with walls glass and sheetrock set on studs and designed to be two or three walls in a house with external hardboard siding...the 5.56 was a mocu more dangerous round. Not to mention the problems and distance lethality with shooting through glass.

355sigfan
August 16, 2004, 05:54 AM
M4 if cost is issue. MP5 if it isn't.
END QUOTE

The M4 is tops no matter what the cost. If you like the HK weapon system go with the HK53 in 223. Its basically a MP5 in 223. Not a bad weapon and its far better than a subgun. When you need a long gun you need more power than a handgun provides. A MP5 is a large handgun that fires fast. Its a fine sub gun. I just don't like sub guns. In general they are falling out of favor and are being replaced by compact 223 carbines in semi and full auto versions.
Pat

355sigfan
August 16, 2004, 05:58 AM
The 9mm embeds in the outer wall in many cases...the 5.56 would sail right theough and end up about 200 yards down range. Many companies and departments followed the test criteria and it supported exactly what the FBI said. When we did our tests were near identical, but when we built a simulated house with walls glass and sheetrock set on studs and designed to be two or three walls in a house with external hardboard siding...the 5.56 was a mocu more dangerous round. Not to mention the problems and distance lethality with shooting through glass.
END QUOTE

Sorry thats entirely false. Pistol rounds are actually better at penetrating walls and windshield glass unless you use bonded ammo in the 223. Thats what makes them better choices for home defense and building entries. The Gunsite info is correct.

I have verified it myself with tests on the range using various scrap building materials. The truth is all bullets are dangerious inside homes. But 223's are a better choice than handgun rounds.
Pat

MrMurphy
August 16, 2004, 08:50 AM
Worry less about which wonder bullet will do the job or stop slightly sooner in a wall (face it, all of them are going to go through at least one wall). Worry more about hitting your target with your round and not having stray rounds in the first place.


A 9mm, .40, .45 ACP pistol caliber carbine, .357, .44/.45 levergun will all certainly do the job and have killed enough bad guys over the decades (centuries in some cases).

A SKS or AK would certainly do the job though it may not be the best for it.

But by preference I would still take a short barreled AR15 with softpoints or M193 ball. If I couldn't get that, an M1 Carbine with softpoints, then any of the rest.

meh92
August 16, 2004, 10:35 AM
I like the M4 platform and it certainly would work well for you. Unfortunately these guns, and accessories, are expensive. A decent 12ga or 20ga pump would also serve well for home defense and be quite a lot cheaper.

If you weren't too opposed to the idea of using your 1894/.44 mag I'd look into several .44 special loads and chronograph them. I've read some ballistic reports showing factory .44 special loads being pushed into the 1100 FPS range. A well designed 180-200gr .44 HP at or around 1100 FPS should prove adequate for short-range defense. Also, you may want to consider frangible ammunition if indoor overpenetration is a serious concern. Magsafe and Glazer (sp?) both make rounds for the .44.

I have a Winchester '94 in .44mag and I've considered using it for home defense but was aslo worried about overpenetration with traditional hunting loads.

DHart
August 16, 2004, 01:02 PM
meh92... Good idea. I finally decided I needed to buy a Chrony and do some testing myself. I'm going to see what the WW .44spl Silvertip does out of my 1894SS with 20" barrel. I'm also considering shortening the barrel length to 16", because I really like the "Trapper" size lever rifles.

I agree that if I can get a factory .44spl JHP to move out at around 1100fps, that should make an excellent close range defense load from a Trapper-size lever rifle... and it would have virtually no recoil out of a carbine.

JWH 223
August 18, 2004, 12:22 PM
SW5 PDW in 9mm
http://www.hunt101.com/img/206287.jpg

Bushmaster P97 pistol...now SBR in .223
http://www.hunt101.com/img/205981.jpg

Custom Bushy M17S bullpup in .223
http://www.hunt101.com/img/161808.jpg

artherd
August 19, 2004, 08:47 PM
Any round is going through a LOT of houses before it will stop.

Compare 9mm, .45ACP, .22LR and .223REM. The .22LR goes through quite a lot of building material.

But the .223 is the lowest penetrating, and hardest hitting of the 'defense-sized' rounds, by a signifigant margin.

It's the best choice. But as always, hit what you shoot.

A Suppressed M4 with a Surefire is about the best you can get.

JShirley
August 19, 2004, 09:40 PM
You could definitely do worse. :)

I'd love to try out a fairly short-barreled, suppressed .45-70 someday, but I know I'd be working for weeks to find a fairly low-pen load. A 300 grain JHP at maybe 1650 (1895G, GA Arms load) fps penetrated a level II vest, railroad tie, and the other side of the vest.

And kept going. Love to spend some time working up, say, a 520 grain blunt nose at walking speed. I'm guessing a very careful heat treat would be required, to get a harder base and soft (deforming) nose. Then again, maybe a sabot carrying an extremely soft load would work at close range. ?

John, likes his hearing

tex_n_cal
August 19, 2004, 11:47 PM
Boy, the more I think of it, I really like the idea of that .17 HMR for this stated purpose. :D

JShirley
August 20, 2004, 07:55 AM
I'm afraid that hitting the wrong angle or obejct (sternum?) would just result in a flesh wound with a .17.
John

44
August 20, 2004, 10:30 AM
What are the legal methods of reducing the noise of muzzle blast? I mean the reduction of its effect on the eardrums. What are the legal things that can be done to the gun? Thanks. 44

355sigfan
August 20, 2004, 02:36 PM
What are the legal methods of reducing the noise of muzzle blast? I mean the reduction of its effect on the eardrums. What are the legal things that can be done to the gun? Thanks. 44

END QUOTE

You have 2 choices. Go through the legal process to get a sound suppressor if legal in your state. Or simply use hearing protection that amplify your hearing until the shot goes off. Such as the electronic muffs offered by Peltor. I use a set of Peltors on gun calls for entries.
Pat

Ktulu
August 20, 2004, 02:54 PM
Gosh dang JWH 223, that SBR is tasty.


So, can we all finally agree that the AR-15, with proper ammo, is the ultimate home defense gun?

lycanthrope
August 20, 2004, 08:28 PM
M4. Collapseable stock if the AWB dies.

Fatelvis
August 20, 2004, 08:37 PM
For close range, how `bout a 12 guage Benelli semi-auto?

KLR
August 20, 2004, 08:38 PM
JWH 223

Where did you get the G-36K rail that is on your Bushmaster M-17?

355sigfan
August 21, 2004, 04:19 AM
For close range, how `bout a 12 guage Benelli semi-auto?

END QUOTE

A shotgun is better than nothing but I would rather have a good 223 Carbine and preferably a M4 at any range.
Pat

355sigfan
August 21, 2004, 04:20 AM
For close range, how `bout a 12 guage Benelli semi-auto?

END QUOTE

A shotgun is better than nothing but I would rather have a good 223 Carbine and preferably a M4 at any range.
Pat

Marshall
August 21, 2004, 07:07 AM
So, can we all finally agree that the AR-15, with proper ammo, is the ultimate home defense gun?

BZZZT. Shotgun by far.

DHart
August 22, 2004, 03:47 PM
I tried to like the modern style urban assault rifles (AR, M4, etc.), but just couldn't warm up to them no matter how much I tried. For my low risk lifestyle (not a cop, no friends in illegal lines of work, etc.) I decided that the rifle to join my defense team (Colt 1911's, Kahr PM-9, Mossberg 500 "Persuader") was a lever rifle.

When I handled this little carbine I was so impressed! It's packed with great features:

Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull/.45 Colt
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Puma454.jpg

• Small (16" barrel) and remarkably maneuverable

• Light (about 5.7 lbs.)

• .45Colt and .454 Casull ammo options everything from watered-down, economical Cowboy loads for plinking to full power CorBon .45Colt JHP to super-power .454 Casull (Win. Supreme Partition 260 gr. JHP 2255 fps / 2935 FPE from this rifle) a very versatile chambering!

• Hi-Viz sights (green rear dots, red front dot) are bright as can be... really quick to acquire.

• Nicely cushioned open weave buttpad absorbs the .454 recoil beautifully

• front loading port in the tube is superb alternative to use to relieve your thumb from pushing rounds into the receiver loader.

• great looks - fine grain black finished hardwood looks like ebony against the bright stainless steel

• stainless steel for low maintenance

$469...this rifle's definitely got the goods!

355sigfan
August 22, 2004, 04:46 PM
BZZZT. Shotgun by far.
END QUOTE

Like I said the shotgun is a respectable weapon but it has more disadvantages compared to advantages overall when compared to a good semi auto 223 carbine. But each will do a good job if you do yours. The only guns I don't like for home defense are rifles in calibers larger than 223. They do over penetrate. Bolt actions in particular are a poor choice due to their low rate of fire. Lever actions can do in a pinch. I don't care for pistol caliber carbines. Their better than a handgun but far behind a shotgun or 223 auto.
Pat

DHart
August 22, 2004, 06:46 PM
355... I can understand how a good .223 semi-auto would be a great choice! And if I ever feel a very serious need for home protection, I'll probably get one. But for my low-risk situation, and living in the country on acerage, I decided the combination of 1911's, Mossy Persuader, and Legacy lever rifle would be just fine. I enjoy the "visual art" the 1911's and lever rifles exhibit as well.

PAC 762
August 22, 2004, 06:58 PM
Like I said the shotgun is a respectable weapon but it has more disadvantages compared to advantages overall when compared to a good semi auto 223 carbine. But each will do a good job if you do yours. The only guns I don't like for home defense are rifles in calibers larger than 223. They do over penetrate. Bolt actions in particular are a poor choice due to their low rate of fire. Lever actions can do in a pinch. I don't care for pistol caliber carbines. Their better than a handgun but far behind a shotgun or 223 auto.

Please explain what advantages an M4 has over a shotgun for a civilian in the home defense role?

Shotgun (12g) will have better stopping power and less penetration. The M4 gives great range, but anyone trying to "defend" themselves at 50 yards or more is going to jail. An M4 carries more & lighter rounds, but it is a moot point when dealing with a static defense against a sigle home invader or a small group.

M4= $800
My police trade in Moss500 (w/ surefire foreend, speedfeed butt, extended mag and rifle sights)= $180

A pump gun is more reliable then an M4 and looks better to the cops and a jury.

Now, I'm a rifle guy who really likes the M4 platform. I have never found shotguns very interesting nor would I ever choose one for any paramilitary type action. However, if there is a niche for the combat shotgun, it is certainly home defense. It is far & away the better choice for realistic civilian home defense.

Snowjob
August 22, 2004, 06:59 PM
While I do like a "combat" shotgun, such as a Remington 870 Express Magnum or Mossberg 500 Cruiser, for in the home and camper, we are addressing "close-quarters" defense, which may not always be defined by the confines of one's abode. (Without going into 1.5 million scenarios) there is always some potential for an assault on oneself and family to move outside once begun indoors, to be initiated from outside, or to take place in an out-of-doors setting. If one is to prepare oneself with a TOOL that is "best" as a close-quarters defense firearm, one must be prepared to respond to threats outside the box, so to speak, of one's home; therefore, taking into consideration the potential need for greater range and (as was mentioned by 355sigfan) rate of fire.

I'm gonna have to go with 355sigfan and MrMurphy on this one. There have been good points raised about the alternative firearms in limited settings and uses, but a semi-auto .223 is my choice for best close-quarters all-around defense rifle.

Granted, I still like my shotgun for home-defense. Another consideration is comfort and ease-of-use. If you're most comfortable, thus more proficient, with a lever-gun, don't use a shotgun or semi-auto without first making yourself very familiar with it.

That said, I still want that Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull/.45 Colt listed by DHart

PAC 762
August 22, 2004, 07:12 PM
Snowjob,
I understand where you and 355 are coming from, but I think any realistic threat that you'll need to shoot at someone farther than 10 yards or need more firepower is extremely slim. Additionally, in the senario where you would need an M4 (riots, SHTF, etc), most likely you would have the extra couple seconds to grab it out of your safe, versus having to have it next to your bed.

The advantage of the shotgun is so great for 99.9% of realistic senarios, IMHO.

DHart
August 22, 2004, 07:18 PM
Snowjob... Sportsman's Warehouse carries them... I just got this one from the Portland, OR store.

Get one in your hands and you won't want to leave the store without it! Guarantee! :D

Snowjob
August 22, 2004, 07:45 PM
PAC 762,
I don't actually disagree with your points. I guess I was speaking more to my own experience of wanting to start out with a multi-purpose tool that would save a little on initial cost, versus purchasing all firearms on my list, for all purposes, at once.

cslinger
August 22, 2004, 07:59 PM
When you get right down to it if you are simply thinking about owning one defensive long arm then one of the main criteria should really be what are you going to have the most FUN owning and shooting.

Whether you have a lever action, a shotgun, a AR varient or any number of other options you will be more than well enough armed for just about any situation you are ever likely to face. That combined with the fact that you really are likely never to face a serious situation then you should go for what is going to give you the best overall return on investment and part of them should be the fun factor.

We have access to a variety of firearms ranging from lever gun, to shotgun, to EBR to pistol caliber carbine etc. and so on. I truely wound't feel undergunned with any of them and chances are one of any of my SIG pistols, most likely a .45 P220ST will be the gun at hand for any kind of bump in the night scenario.

We don't own a lot of firearms for "tactical reasons" we own them because of each of their individual fun factors. Personally if I could only have one it would probably be a pump shotty of some type simply because of the variety of fun things I can do with it combined with it's overall defensive capabilities.

I think that levergun is just about a perfect choice since it is definitely plenty powerful in terms of a defensive arm plus it is versatile as hell, short and very handy and most of all will be a blast to shoot for fun and is very cool looking to boot.

Once again if I was going into harms way or if I was targeted by the mafia or something then a nice 30 round EBR would be the way to go but even in that case I would be able to make do with a good solid shotty or any number of other options.

It's perversely fun to prepare for the worst so to speak but thankfully the worst 99.9% of us will ever face is a charging B2 target or possibly an attack of a swarm of clay and that is the way I want to keep it.

Good choice DHART a shorty levergun. Funny how many of these questions were answered more than adequately many years ago. A good lever gun, and Jframe sized pistol will do you just fine for any kind of social needs you are ever likely to encounter and both are not exactly new.

Chris

DHart
August 22, 2004, 08:27 PM
Chris.... yours is a very, very well put statement which rings stone-true to my mind. Defense is serious stuff, but surrounding all this talk of defense (for many of us anyway) is really just having a lot of fun theorizing, speculating, shooting, chronographing, thinking, enjoying the process. Fortunately and thankfully, most of us will never go beyond that B2 or "swarm of clay". And yes, this little .454/.45Colt lever rifle is turning out to be more fun in a firearm than I've had in a very long time!

Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Puma454.jpg

And, lucky for me, I have this other little carbine coming to me next week.... it's like Christmas in August! LOL

Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Win92Trapper.jpg

Nothing like fine art and fine shooting fun all wrapped up in one! :p

PAC 762
August 22, 2004, 08:28 PM
Snow,
I understand what you're saying. I definitely agree that the M4 is more versitile.

Marshall
August 22, 2004, 09:28 PM
Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt

Ahh yes, I love it! You have done well my son! :D
Psst...can you whisper what your buying price was?


And 355sigfan, I respect your likes and opinions. But, the basics are, AR's and .223 semi-auto's in general are offensive weapons. Shotguns in an HD configuration are defensive weapons and rightfully so for both. Granted a .223 lacks in the penetration department but it also better hit a head, heart or spine because that the only way it's going to be leathal and/or provide a sure stop. On the other hand, a shotgun with proper HD ammo will provide a sure stop with most every shot fired. Also, your aim can have some nervousness and still be effevtive, with a .223 you better be accurate to be effective, a total miss could be leathal to you and none of us want that. :)

355sigfan
August 22, 2004, 09:38 PM
Granted a .223 lacks in the penetration department but it also better hit a head, heart or spine because that the only way it's going to be leathal and/or provide a sure stop. On the other hand, a shotgun with proper HD ammo will provide a sure stop with most every shot fired.
END QUOTE

I respect your opinion as well and I respect the shotgun. But I feel your selling the stopping power of a 223 short. A 223 with soft point ammo creates devasting wounds. I would rather have it than buckshot. I will conceed that a 12 gauge slug is more devasting however. 223's have enough energy to make use of the stretch cavity. It stretches the tissue enought o rip it. It creates dead tissue areas the size of a cantalope.
Pat

benEzra
August 22, 2004, 10:25 PM
I guess I was speaking more to my own experience of wanting to start out with a multi-purpose tool that would save a little on initial cost, versus purchasing all firearms on my list, for all purposes, at once.

When you get right down to it if you are simply thinking about owning one defensive long arm then one of the main criteria should really be what are you going to have the most FUN owning and shooting.
This pretty much sums it up for me. Facing a single intruder on PCP from an ensconced position, a 12-gauge with 00 buckshot would probably be tops. However, a .223 or 7.62x39 will do almost as well, and I'd rather spend my range time punching paper with the rifle than with the shotgun. I just like rifles, period. So, for me, my choice in a defensive longarm would always be a rifle, because that's what I like to shoot.

Ditto for pistol-caliber carbines; they're neat, but I just like rifles.

To each his own . . . :)

DHart
August 22, 2004, 10:26 PM
Marshall... yes, I know, the Win/Miroku 92 Ltd Trapper .45Colt is special indeed. I've seen them from around $850 to $1000 at various places. My gunsmith can get them from Davidson's for $805 his cost plus about $20 shipping. I almost went for it. Then I discovered CDNN has a few of them left and they're going for $699 plus $15 shipping (that's below normal dealer cost - CDNN must have gotten a good deal on them). I suspect they're slow selling because they're so costly, that's probably why CDNN has a great deal on them. Davidson's commissioned Win/Miroku to make a limited run of 500 of them. Anyone who want's one for $699 plus $15 shipping... call CDNN.

I'm sooooo excited to be getting one! Especially at the Trapper length - my fave for a pistol caliber lever rifle.

Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Win92Trapper.jpg

Marshall
August 22, 2004, 10:45 PM
DHart,

Thanks for the hints! Now, just keep posting that picture and we'll be good! :D



355sigfan,

Let me share this with you for information purposes, not to be argumentative, which is what we're here for. ;)

5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Rem)

The .223 is used for law enforcement applications, largely because some agencies fear the over penetration of the .308 round in hostage type situations. The .223 generally splinters on impact, allowing almost no excess penetration that could possibly hit innocents, such as hostages. But with this fragmentation and lack of penetration comes a necessity for more precise shot placement, leaving almost no room for error. The .223 has a small temporary wound channel (Stretch cavity), requiring almost a direct hit on the spinal stem in order to get "lights out" on a target. The lighter .223 bullet, with its low ballistic coefficient, is very susceptible to the effects of wind, which really limits its long range potential. While it is possible to achieve acceptable accuracy at 600 meters on a calm day, it is too risky on the windy days to really consider this round for military sniping purposes. Due to the lack of penetration and lack of energy, the .223 should only be used in very rare circumstances and only on head shots. There is more then one instance when a target has been shot with a perfectly placed center mass shot, and it failed to incapacitate the target. The very heavy .223 bullets (75gr +) are becoming more popular in long range shooting, but the special barrels and rifles required to shoot these high BC bullets are not available as standard sniper rifles to everyday snipers.

Note: In order to stabilize the 69-gr. Bullets and heavier, the twist on the rifle barrel needs to be at least 1:8"

Recommendation: only use the .223 within 100 meters and only take head shots if at all possible. If the .223 is all that your unit has in the way of a sniper rifle, be sure to keep in mind the limitations of the round.


Sniper Central, click on this and read. (http://www.snipercentral.com/223.htm)


Respectfully,
Marshall

444
August 22, 2004, 10:57 PM
Marshall: That information isn't exactly what we are talking about here. As a police sniper, you would be taking a very risky shot possibly (probably) involving hostages. There is an absolute need to have the guy die instantly. In addition, the guy you are shooting is not shooting at you most likely. You are sitting back at a distance and he is probably not even aware of your presence. You are shooting a scope rifle from a rest and should be able to take a very careful, slow shot and place that shot exactly where you want to.
In this thread, we are talking about home defense usage of firearms: shooting to defend your life at very close range in a dynamic situation where the other guy knows you are there and is in the process of taking offensive aciton against you.
I can assure you from personal experience that a .223 at close range produces a horrible, perment wound. At least as dramatic as a shotgun and in most cases far more dramatic unless the shotgun was fired at contact distance.

Marshall
August 22, 2004, 11:42 PM
444,

I understand that.

OK, we are inside our home, most shots would be under 15-20 yards. You're telling me that a single .223 is going to create more havock on an intruder than a single shot of a 3" to 3 1/2" 00 buck shotgun shell?

Respectully, if I have an intruder break into my home, I hope he is the one with the .223 and I have the shotgun. His whole head may come off. :)

444
August 22, 2004, 11:53 PM
Yeah, I am going to tell you that it might.
As I mentioned previously, my home defense weapon of choice is a 12 gauge shotgun. But that doesn't mean I am going to go along with some of the ridiculous stuff I read on here (the internet) about the .223 cartridge either (I am not talking about you Marshall).

Omni04
August 23, 2004, 12:47 AM
chances are the intruder wouldn't have a gun, or if he did you would have the initiative, so it boils down to how much of the atcual house will fall with that shot gun blast? :)

Marshall
August 23, 2004, 01:13 AM
444,

Well, I'm learning more than I knew. And, I guess it that the .223 will do more damage up close than I ever though it would. I didn't take it that would have been speaking of me, I understand thoroughly what you mean about the internet. Thanks for saying so though.

However, don't mind me if I still stay with a shotty. :D
http://www.winchester.com/images/product%20catalog/XB12L00.jpg http://www.winchester.com/images/product%20catalog/X223RH.jpg

444
August 23, 2004, 01:16 AM
And you won't be sorry.

355sigfan
August 23, 2004, 03:09 AM
Marshall I respect your opinion. 444 explained it in a very articulate manner. There are some advantges to the shotgun outside of the tactical realm. If you live in a anti gun area you would be better off using a shotgun for home defense. They are also fast into action for the first shot from a chamber empty storage condition. A might bit faster than a AR15 with a loaded mag and empty chamber.

If your using a shotgun I would prefer Federal Tactical buckshot for home defense. This load recoils lightly and paterns well. What it gives up in energy it makes up for in pattern density.
Pat

JShirley
August 23, 2004, 07:49 PM
On the other hand, a shotgun with proper HD ammo will provide a sure stop with most every shot fired.

Hm.

I hear some folks saying that a shotgun is the ultimate home defense piece. I may not totally disagree, but I question what ammo you folks are using?

I've lost all regard for buckshot. Now, how comfortable do y'all feel using a slug for home defense? No? Then, get a rifle.

Personally, I'm fine with either, and I've been using Remington Reduced Recoil Slugs almost exclusively in my shotguns for the last few years. (I killed three deer with RRR slugs, this year, btw.)

You know what? I shot the biggest deer I've ever killed with a RRR slug. Then I tracked him for hours. (He was a TOUGH bastard.) He would've hit the dirt almost instantly if I'd used the .35 Whelen, .308, or .30-06 I used on other deer this year, and I'm pretty certain even a decent .223 would've felled him better.

John

444
August 23, 2004, 07:53 PM
Why ?

JShirley
August 23, 2004, 08:23 PM
Don't get me wrong- I have used buckshot. In fact, the first deer I ever killed was a nice little buck I dropped at 16 with Grandpa's SxS that I fired from the hip. I guess I didn't realize at the time how lucky that shot really was; he dropped like someone switched off the lights.

That same trip, I was not able to ethically shoot at several more deer, because they were out of reasonable buckshot range, though easily within iron-sighted rifle range.

I want versatility, and though the shotgun is versatile in that one can hunt anything at close range with the right ammunition, when using buckshot, that envelope is fairly limited.

At the ranges one can reasonably use buckshot, I can use a slug, and control where my rounds go. Besides the control issue, buckshot run out of energy fast. Combine inexact placement with rapid depleting energy, and you have a round that may not stop your target, even if you do manage to hit it. I've been nearby when someone dumped two rounds of buckshot into a nice little Russian boar. Slugs stopped the boar; examining the carcass, one was
NOT impressed with the buckshot's performance. Hell, I've failed to "one shot stop" a squirrel with buckshot. :barf:

It does work great on armadillo at 5 yards, though. :scrutiny:

John

Black Snowman
August 23, 2004, 08:52 PM
I opted for the 223 route over the shotgun mainly for penetration. Both good in people and bad in plaster. Using a long barrel (bullpup) and hollowpoints to improve performance in both.

Plus if the home invaders picked up some surplus body armor I still have a chance to break through with the 223. Buckshot will be stopped dead by almost any level of body armor.

Slugs are extremely effecive on people but also on walls. I didn't want to have to worry so much about the neighbors when going for a stop.

So, I ended up with the Bushmaster M17S as my home defense gun. Reliable for me, fun to shoot so I'll practice, plus a balence of stopping power and wall penetration.

But I might replace it with a supressed collapsing stock AR in .50 Beowulf :evil: It will be longer and have penetration issues but stopping power is definately there.

tavo94
August 24, 2004, 12:37 AM
M4 is my first choice. Second is the MP5.

44
August 24, 2004, 01:55 AM
It's during discussions about best Home Defense rifles that I end up reconsidering a longslide semiauto pistol with a light mounted on it, with a beam that hits where the gun does - because after I think I've imagined the best rifle, I always wonder if I'd be better off proficient with a handgun like this.
Like maybe a real accurate longslide 1911 like Springfield makes, or the long Glock maybe. A high capacity hot caliber target gun, loose enough to be reliable, that you shoot A LOT and rarely miss with. 44

------------------------------

355sigfan
August 24, 2004, 02:01 AM
44

A handgun no matter how accurate and powerfull is still just a handgun. No handgun caliber comes close to the stopping potential of the 223 or the 12 gauge shotgun. Your ability to place fast accurate rounds will also be greatly enhanced with a longgun. Handguns exist not because of their great ability to win gun fights but because they are handy and concealable. Neither of which is an issue in a home defense situation. A handgun should be a back up in the home only to be used till you can get your rifle or shotgun out.
Pat

lycanthrope
August 24, 2004, 08:09 AM
Your ability to place fast accurate rounds will also be greatly enhanced with a longgun.


That depends. In a small room, a handgun can be accessed faster and will acquire a target better than a long gun if the user has proficiency. Try an "El Presidente" with a handgun and then a 16" AR. The pistol will swing faster and negotiate obstacles much easier.

However....past 15 yards, the long gun rules. Stopping power is better at all ranges.

JWH 223
August 24, 2004, 08:50 AM
KLR,

JWH 223

Where did you get the G-36K rail that is on your Bushmaster M-17?

It is a custom job...I started with the rail and irons off of a SL8-1 that I still had laying around.....some chopping and milling later, it's on the M17.

Vern Humphrey
August 24, 2004, 10:06 AM
I recommend people considering a home defense weapon try a little experiment. First, measure off the longest shot you might have in your house. Make a "wall" with 2X4s and wallboard, and shoot at it at that range. Most people will find that at that range, a load of Number 6 shot makes a single large hole.

For in-home defense, a shotgun is difficult to beat -- it is highly effective at the short ranges encountered inside a house, and while a load of Number 6 or 4 WILL penetrate inner walls, it won't penetrate outer walls and the outer wall of the neighbor's house.

44
August 24, 2004, 10:31 AM
I read somewhere about a policeman who deliberately locks up his handgun and gets out his shotgun when he gets home. His purpose is to dedicate himself to home defense with ONLY the shotgun so he will never launch deadly stray bullets through the walls.
I suppose he uses a shot that poses little danger on the opposite side of a wall. 44

MrMurphy
August 24, 2004, 10:39 AM
Basically any birdshot will penetrate drywall and sheetrock.

i saw a suicide where about two dozen pellets still penetrated the ceiling overheard even after quite literally removing the guy's head from the jaw up. Or about 80% of it. I think it was no.7 shot? several hundred small pellets.

355sigfan
August 24, 2004, 01:07 PM
That depends. In a small room, a handgun can be accessed faster and will acquire a target better than a long gun if the user has proficiency. Try an "El Presidente" with a handgun and then a 16" AR. The pistol will swing faster and negotiate obstacles much easier.

However....past 15 yards, the long gun rules. Stopping power is better at all ranges.
END QUOTE

Unless your in a tunnel on your knees the long gun is better. I have recieved training as a basic swat operator. We take M4's into trailer homes and have no difficulty with them. I have been in my share of shoot houses and I can tell you that a long gun is almost always preferable to a handgun from 0 to 10000 yards. As far as the elpresident drill its faster with a M4 try it. I included this stage in all three events of a 3 gun competition locally and the handgun times are as they should be slower than the carbines and the shotguns. No disrespect but your way off base on this one.
Pat

444
August 24, 2004, 02:45 PM
I am no big time three gun shooter, nor am I any kind of gunfighter. But I have done a lot of El Presidente's with the carbine and I am MUCH faster with the carbine (and an Aimpoint). Again, not that I am a good shooter, but 90% of my shooting, competition, and training over the years was done with handguns. I always considered myself a pretty decent handgun shooter and a mediocre at best rifle shooter.

44
August 24, 2004, 07:07 PM
What would be a good rule of thumb for the Maximum Overall Length of an indoor home defense rifle or shotgun? Thanks. 44

Vern Humphrey
August 24, 2004, 07:20 PM
My home defense gun is an Ithaca Model 37 with the 20" smoothbore slug barrel installed. I find it about ideal when it comes to length and handiness.

However, you should construct scenarios and run them -- try to figure out what might happen, and develop tactics to counter it. Run through your scenarios and see how your current weapon fits.

lycanthrope
August 24, 2004, 08:11 PM
As far as the elpresident drill its faster with a M4 try it. I included this stage in all three events of a 3 gun competition locally and the handgun times are as they should be slower than the carbines and the shotguns. No disrespect but your way off base on this one

You men can turn, 180 degrees, double tap 3 targets, reload and double tap 3 targets in under 6 seconds with your carbines? I can do that with my pistol pretty easily, but getting a reload done on a carbine in under 2 seconds is admirable IMHO.

355sigfan
August 24, 2004, 09:52 PM
The reload is a tad slower depending on how your spare ammo is set up but the shooting is much faster with the carbine. Thats the reason we always take a long gun to a gun call they hit faster and harder. Hand guns are only there if the long gun runs dry or malfunctions.
Pat

lycanthrope
August 24, 2004, 09:54 PM
I agree to harder. I can simply run the handgun much faster.

355sigfan
August 24, 2004, 10:02 PM
That seems strange to me no disrespect. I have shot pistols for quite a while and not trying to brag, but I am the best shot at my department with a pistol. But even with my handgun skill I find that the carbine is far faster. First off you can get away with far worse and sloppier trigger control and still hit your target. With the handgun trigger control is everything. With longguns their far more forgiving. I must admit I am using an Eotech sight and this speeds things up considerably. Then their is the issue of recoil. With a 223 carbine there is very little muzzle jump you can shoot nearly as fast as you can pull the trigger at close range. With the handgun recoil is more of a factor.

The only real advantage I can see to a handgun may be if your doing an entry on a Bus or other area where you would have to elevate your weapon to hit a target thats below you. But for the most part I can not see a place where a handgun would be a better tool.
Pat

444
August 24, 2004, 10:07 PM
I think it depends on what you practice with. I haven't done any El Presidente's with anything for six months or more, so I doubt if I could do anything sensational. But I HAVE done sub six second El Presidente's with both handgun and carbine and I am sure I could again with a very little practice. The carbine reload is not any slower than the handgun. I use Bladetek mag carriers which sit on my belt pretty much just like my handgun magazine pouches. The only issue is if you are using an AR15, some magazines won't always easily lock up. Of course the magazines that I don't baby; the ones I like to practice speed reloads with and drop on the ground are the ones that don't like to lock up.
I have a video of me doing a carbine El Pres at Gunsite 223. If I think of it, I will see how long it took me. I seem to remember though that we started facing the targets at the low ready. I also remember that the one I did on the video wasn't that good because when I finish, I started shaking my head.

lbmii
August 26, 2004, 02:49 AM
Well my personal choice is a 12 gauge with a load of 12 pellets of .32 caliber single ought buck (16 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin). However I am impressed with a new carbine by Ruger that can be had in 9mm or 40 caliber. Also I used to have a M1 Carbine that I think would be pretty good but its' high penetration and poor ammo choice was a concern of mine.

At one time I think you could get a small pump action Rossi carbine in 357, this would seem almost ideal. Anyone know of a 16-inch barrel pump action carbine that is still being made?

I would favor a very light hollow point bullet for a 223 carbine for explosive expansion. I think a light hollow point 45 or 50-grain varmint load would be best in a 223 carbine. However I understand you have to use lighter springs in order to have reliable cycling of the action.

I would also say the same for pistol rounds fired from carbines. I would go with a hollow point 180-grain high velocity round for the 44 mag and a hollow point 125 grain high velocity round for the 357 mag, 185 grain for the 45, 155 grain for the 40 S&W and 115 for the 9mm.

355sigfan
August 26, 2004, 02:57 AM
I personally would not go any lighter than 55 grains with the 223. Its already explosive and a tad under penetrative. I prefer the 69 grain loads.
Pat

Mac Attack
August 26, 2004, 12:36 PM
for CQC (i.e. really close fighting) I would take a Shotgun over a centerfire rifle any day of the week.

44
August 26, 2004, 01:21 PM
Is #4 buck best for home defense? Or #7 shot? Or what?

I've heard that stray 00 will penetrate walls and remain lethal. Also heard about a lady being killed a block down the street with one stray 00 pellet from a police shooting.

Have also heard the complaint that if there's a hostage, you are sunk with a shotgun.

What about these things? Keeps me from depending on the shotgun and thinking about becoming expert with the precision 223 rifle: no misses, no strays. Thanks. 44

Vern Humphrey
August 26, 2004, 01:44 PM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------
Is #4 buck best for home defense? Or #7 shot? Or what?

I've heard that stray 00 will penetrate walls and remain lethal. Also heard about a lady being killed a block down the street with one stray 00 pellet from a police shooting.
--------------------------------------------

You've just about answered your own question. Number 6 shot will kill at any reasonable range inside a house. Try it as I suggested -- measure your ranges, then make up a "wall" with scrap 2X4s and wallboard and shoot it at that range. If you like, put another behind it at the distance of the next wall.

Quote:
------------------------------------
Have also heard the complaint that if there's a hostage, you are sunk with a shotgun.
------------------------------------

What do you intend to do, shoot the hostage taker while he has a knife at the throat of the hostage (or a gun to her head?)

There aren't many people who would take that risk -- the best bet is to keep the hostage-taker engaged and keep him from leaving with the hostage -- that means get as close as you can.

But if you HAVE to shoot -- take a look at that "wall" again. From ten feet or soo, there's no difference between a charge of number 6s and a bullet.

Black Snowman
August 26, 2004, 03:13 PM
The pistol will swing faster

This is actually the major reason I prefer a long gun in a defensive situation. It's a lot harder to REALLY screw up POA and shoot something you REALLY didn't want to. Like yourself.

artherd
August 27, 2004, 05:23 AM
"Bringing an automatic rifle to a gunfight is like bringing a chainsaw to a knife-fight."

KLR
August 27, 2004, 07:16 PM
Thanks JWH!

jAK-47
August 31, 2004, 11:29 PM
My choices for home defense:
1)Just about any short barrelled shotgun with the right load. Saiga 12 gauge. No over-penetration and PLENTY of power/kill zone. I would NOT use anything but a shotgun for home defense unless I had to.
2)If you have to use a rifle, the KelTec with 10 - 33 rounds (depends on your magazine) of 124gr +P Gold Dots would be nice OR Lever action in anything 45 or over would work - practice follow-up shots.
3)Handgun choice for me would be the Glock21 with Gold Dot 185gr +P.

Hey, it's just MY preferences. YMMV.

jAK-47

cracked butt
September 1, 2004, 05:40 AM
I'm going to be the odd man out and say the M1 garand. An old Marine showed me how they used to train to used them in close quarters and it actually scared the hell out of me as to how effective that big old club with a sharp pointy thing on the other end can be in trained hands. Wouldn't be my first choice by far, but its a MUCH better bludgeon than most.

Pug Puppy
September 1, 2004, 01:21 PM
Hmmm...
Many good points! Here a few of mine:
1 . Avoid USA magazines. They are junk.
2. Stick to RNL, SP, LFP, HP, Powerball, and Range Safe rounds. They reportedly are reliable-feeding and reportedly donot oerpenetrate.
3. If you buy Russian HP, MAKE SURE THAT the HP that you buyis lead core.
The non-lead hollowpoints shoot through a six inch sycamore tree and keep on flying.
Hope this helps.

mpthole
September 1, 2004, 02:11 PM
Aawww heck, since this thread has now hit 6 pages, I might as well add my 2 cents. :)

After reading this article on home defense ammo for shotguns (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm), I switched to #1 buck. It patterns really nicely out of my M1S90 at 20 feet - which is the furthest shot I could take in my house.

That said... I would also use my Bushmaster 16" AR with M193 rounds and a SureFire.

student
September 1, 2004, 10:16 PM
a pointy stick!!!

Seriously, for home defense you should have the upper hand knowing the terrain, how to be quiet, where stuff is, barking dog or screaming toddler assaulting intruders. Any weapon should do. I am currently taken with the very silent tomahawk. If you are somewhere else and NEED the best close quarters defense rifle, I suggest you go home where the pointy stick works well.:D

Personally, I would like to retain some hearing following a confrontation, thus excluding most high velocity rifle rounds. Had a 45 glock go off about 2-3 feet from my head that was pointed about 1 foot away from me. Couldn't hear sh-t for a good long time, felt like I was on some kind of crazy drug trip, although I was glad to be alive.

That said I like a moderate powered carbine 9mm-45 cal with about a 16" barrel. I prefer the heavier hollow points as they should expand well with the added velocity from a carbine. Plenty of power....still can hear later on. If for some reason drugged-up body-armored hulligans assault my home, I guess I could sacrifice some hearing to lob some 7.62x39 or even steel core 7.62x54 (this may set the house on fire) at them.

355sigfan
September 1, 2004, 10:45 PM
Student the problem is your pistol caliber carbine is actually more dangerious to others who live around you if you fire in your home than a 223. And if you hit your target the 223 is far more destructive to the badguy than any pistol round. So your increasing your liability and decreasing your stopping power.
Pat

lbmii
September 2, 2004, 12:02 AM
mpthole,

The site you posted is excellent. I found the Firearms Technical Institute site about a year ago and use it for reference all the time. The Firearms Technical Institute site no longer seems to be active.

I am a strong advocate of using either 16 pellet #1 buck or 12 pellet Single Ought buck instead of the traditional 9 pellet double ought buck.

There is one thing that was mentioned in the link that I found to be incorrect. The link stated that Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load has a shot cup. This is not the case. Also I patterned the three different brands on #1 buckshot and found that Federal Classic had the widest spread. Winchester had the tightest spread and Remington was in-between.


Below is Federal No 1 buck 16 pellets at 6 paces (about 7 yards) Mossberg 590 A1 Double Action 20" barrel modified choke.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1026154

Below is Remington No 1 buck 16 pellets at 6 paces 20" barrel modified choke.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1023624

Below is Winchester No 1 buck 16 pellets at 6 paces 20" barrel modified choke.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1023620

I tested a lot of buckshot and posted the photos here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...;threadid=83909

Sulaco
September 2, 2004, 01:22 PM
Not neccessarily in this order, my favorite close-quarters defense implements are;

http://www.unav.es/digilab/proyectosenl/2002/miserio_bakersfield/images/rottweiler.jpg

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/images/534094m.jpg

http://store1.yimg.com/I/csstoreonline_1808_122722

GunGoBoom
September 2, 2004, 02:16 PM
Well, I'm no expert, but the gun I would grab for home defense first is a handgun. As for long guns, here's what I would grab, in order, if the guns went T.U. in succession (not counting nearly unattainable MP5s):

1. Rem 870 (or Mossy, Winchester, etc.) pump, short bbl, No. 4 buckshot, 12 ga
2. Bushmaster M17 bullpup, .223 (lotsa 20 rounders)
3. AK74-type (SAR2, etc) rifle, 5.45x39
4. My Mech-Tech Upper with G20 lower and Redfield Red dot. That's 10mm auto times 15+1, in a very handy setup.

Personally, I don't have #3 at present (SAR2), but plan to. I have the others.

Remember what people have said: The .223s/5.56 nato and 5.45x39 will apparently penetrate walls and endanger innocents LESS than a pistol caliber round or a 7.62x39 or 7.62 nato, so those small caliber centerfires would be the best choice, in all likelihood. The smallish buckshot in a shotgun will also ease overpenetration concerns, relative to a pistol caliber carbine. Notwithstanding that I have the 10mm carbine setup, I don't see much use at all for a pistol caliber carbine, truth be told, UNLESS its a stealth operation using a 9x19, .380, or .32 loaded subsonic with suppressor. Of course any .223s would work - AR15s/M4geries, AR180Bs, M17S, Daewoo K2, Galil, G36 clone, SAR3 or Saiga .223, KelTec SU16Bravo, even a Mini-14 in a pinch (after all, you're not trying to hit anything past 20 yards. ;) ).

Bottom line here:

1. If stealth is a concern, suppressed 9x19 carbine with 147 subsonics.

(If stealth is not a concern: )
2. If overpenetration/innocents is a concern, and I anticipate a lot of shootin' goin' down, OR anticipate needing to penetrate SBA on the enemy, then something in .223 or 5.45x39. This is probably the best overall choice in the majority of urban/suburban situations.
3. If overpenetration/innocents is a concern, and I DON'T anticipate more than a few rounds needed (such as home defense), AND don't anticipate needing to penetrate SBA, then a 12 guage with No 4 buckshot or smaller, and extras in the sidesaddle.
4. If overpenetration is not a concern (no likely innocents nearby), OR I anticipate a high likelihood of having to shoot enemies through obstacles like small trees, walls, car doors, etc., then something in 7.62nato, 7.62x39, or possibly a 10mm carbine or slug-loaded shotgun (10mm or slug gun would be nice UNLESS I think I need to penetrate SBA - body armor).

Category 4 is ideal for CQB in theory, particularly 7.62 nato, because it can do it all againt the enemy - but it's only ideal if you DON'T have one of the other concerns: stealth or overpenetration/harming innocents/friendlies - and the latter is OFTEN a major concern. More I think about, more it seems that an AK74 type is purt near the best tradeoff of everything if you had to have just ONE, particularly on a budget. Now, get one of those nice bullpup conversions for it out of shotgun news, and I think you'd really have something! (though in truth, I think the conversions are for 7.62x39s only - bah). If you're really on a budget, a 12 ga with a pipe full of small buckshot or large birdshot, with 4-6 slugs in the sidesaddle *just in case* is a pretty decent solution.

There, now you have an excuse to get at least 4 different guns - you can thank me later. :)

Which knife is that Sulaco?

ducktapehero
September 2, 2004, 02:39 PM
I gotta go with Sulaco's picks. Although instead of the knife as my 3rd option I have a nice heavy Mag-lite.

And if you hit your target the 223 is far more destructive to the badguy than any pistol round. The energy and muzzle velocity of some 357 Magnum loads out of a rifle rival 30-30 loads. That's definitely in the same class of stopping power as a 223. As mentioned however, auto pistol loads pick up little energy from a rifle length barrel.

GunGoBoom
September 2, 2004, 02:57 PM
Ducktapehero, I don't think you can stretch the incapacitating power of .357 mag nearly as far as .223 because of the tumbling/yawing that a .223 (or 5.45x39) bullet does upon entering flesh, when launched at relatively high velocities - far more destructive, I believe, than any pistol caliber carbine, including .44 mag. Not to mention that it will penetrate SBA whereas pistol caliber carbine usually will not.

DHart, I like your choice too, though - a lot! That is a nice handy, versatile carbine for the money - FO sights and all - dang I want one now.

355sigfan
September 2, 2004, 04:25 PM
The energy and muzzle velocity of some 357 Magnum loads out of a rifle rival 30-30 loads. That's definitely in the same class of stopping power as a 223. As mentioned however, auto pistol loads pick up little energy from a rifle length barrel.
END QUOTE

Sorry but this is not correct. The 30 30 itself does not compare to the 223 because of the fragmentation and stretch cavity much less the 357 mag from a rifle.
Pat

ducktapehero
September 2, 2004, 05:50 PM
The 30 30 itself does not compare to the 223 because of the fragmentation and stretch cavity much less the 357 mag from a rifle. The 223 can make some ghastly wounds under certain condtitions but in other conditions it simply makes a 22 caliber hole in someone.

I'm not saying that the 30-30 or similar round(7.62x39, 357 out of a rifle etc)is the superior round but the latter 3 rounds are legal for hunting whitetail deer whereas the 223 isn't in most areas of the country. I know that a deer isn't the same as a man but when bullet designs fail(and they often do) then all you have to rely upon is the size of the bullet itself to do damage. If worst comes to worst I'd rather put a 30 or 35 caliber hole in someone than a 22 cailber one.(Actually I'd rather put a 50 caliber hole in them but the rifles chambered in it are a bit unwieldy for close in self defense work)

OTOH when the design works as intended the 223 is indeed an awesome stopper. It does have a massive stretch cavity as you 223 fans like to point out.;) I haven't heard what the size of stretch cavity the 357 rifle has but according to Chuck Hawks(about 3/4 down the attached link) out of a handgun it produces a football sized stretch cavity. Which is quite respectable.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm

355sigfan
September 2, 2004, 06:11 PM
The 223 can make some ghastly wounds under certain condtitions but in other conditions it simply makes a 22 caliber hole in someone.

END QUOTE

True but those conditions where it makes a 22 caliber hole is at long range. The 223 loses stopping power exponentially past 200 yards or so. This is a valid concern for our fighting men in Iraq. But it should not be a concern to Joe Blow home defender.

As for the hunting caliber rules. Thats an subjective standard. In your state a 38 special would be legal to hunt with due to bore size out of a rifle. Yet a 223 would not. Do you deer hunt with a 38 special. Here in Alaska I know a lot of people who hunt with 223's and use them to take Caribou. (raindeer) So the 223 is more than capable of taking deer sized game with proper load selection and shot placement. I respect the 357 mag as a handgun round. But its stretch cavity does not go to the point of ripping tissue like the 223 does. Anyway stay safe.

Pat

ducktapehero
September 2, 2004, 06:44 PM
The difference between a 38 and a 357 is that a 357(rifle) is a respectable deer stopper while the 38 just isn't up to snuff. And you're right the 223 is probably a better stopper than a 357(or 30-30) rifle but like I said, IMHO it puts it in the same class. I would guess that with a good COM hit, the difference in stopping power between them wouldn't be too far apart.

Although I will concede the rounds I have mentioned would penetrate through more housing material but I live in a semi rural area so it's not as much of an issue for me as it is for other people.

The reason I even posted at all was that ALL pistol caliber carbines were lumped together. A 45acp out of a carbine behaves about the same as a 45acp out of a handgun. The 357mag out of a rifle, OTOH becomes a whole different animal with a LOT more power.

44
September 2, 2004, 07:19 PM
I usually end up thinking that these are the most important things for a self-defense gun that meets the present rules for self-defense with guns:

1 - A round that puts an end to the attack when you hit the zone with one or two shots.

2 - This round does not exit with enough energy to seriously injure anyone.

3 - You are really fast with the gun in placing your first and second shots in the zone.

4 - You do not miss with this gun (and lose the fight while you launch stray bullets into the neighborhood).

5 - These things should apply out to 25 yards.

44

Snowjob
September 4, 2004, 04:55 PM
ducktapehero , is that a 4-cell MagLight? I'm trying to figure the muzzle velocity on mine.:p

Having kids running around, I no longer keep my glock or S&W on/in the nightstand, so it is now no nearer than 3 seconds away. Just in case, I've got a nice pinata bat next to the bed.

delta789
February 4, 2009, 01:21 PM
The problem with electing any firearm the "Best CQB weapon" is that there are too many variables. CQB battle typically takes place in urban environments. Therefore, the tight spaces. If we're Green Berets in Afghanistan trying to wack some tangos, the best choice is going to be a bullpup rifle configuration. If, however, you're a DEA agent trying to take down some drug runners, and you are worried about civilian casualties in a building, an SMG chambered in .45ACP is probably your best bet. Great stopping power, low penetration. If however, you're Homer Simpson:D and you live in suburbia with a couple of kids, a handgun in 9mm or .45, or a shorty 12 ga. shotgun is probably your best bet. You don't need hardcore penetration, that would in fact endanger your neighbors. It all depends on the job description. Just ask yourself "What kind of situation will I most likely find myself in?" Then go out and buy a reliable, compact, comfortable weapon that is chambered for ammunition easy to come by. And then go practice. Thats all there is to it folks.;)

RP88
February 4, 2009, 01:46 PM
for RIFLES...just about anything in .223 will work great. As said, low liability, high power, easy follow-ups due to low recoil.

However, I would still opt for a 12ga. pump shotgun, if only because of the nearly truly-invincible design

gdcpony
February 4, 2009, 01:47 PM
I will reference previous post to save time typing:
My one daughter (7yrs) has a lever action .22 rifle that she plinks shot gun shells with. The wife has my shotgun (rifled bore) with #6 lead shot (won't kill, but will hurt like hell) and a couple slugs if they don't get the hint (though she would probably miss). I have my AR, and my other daughter (10yrs) has a bow she is VERY good with (a .410 too, but she'd probably grab the bow). We also have a couple other things locked away that would be no fun for an intruder... We could add a very protective husky and even it up... It would take a coordinated effort just to round us up, much less deal with us armed.
As far as tactics, we all know the rules. ID first (discreetly by peeking), then arm, then ID again (verbally), then warn, then fire. I have the only weapon likely to go through walls (unless the wife loads the slugs which isn't likely) and still carry energy which is intentional. The lights are left on in one area only at a point they would have to go through to get to us giving a chance for ID and or shots. We know where the light switches are not them. I won't say we got it all planned out, but I have taken steps to make sure it would be difficult to come in and have your way in this house. Heck, we don't lock doors around here, it isn't neighborly. I live by a Marine tactic: Be polite to everyone, but always have a plan to kill them.
I got it handled. Weapons and rounds are a distant second to knowing what to do and have SOMETHING to do it with.

Deer Hunter
February 4, 2009, 02:46 PM
.72 caliber Brown Bess.

The smoke screen allows for a tactical escape.

amd6547
February 4, 2009, 02:47 PM
I have been a fan of pistol caliber carbines for a long time, and have owned several. I have recently switched to the M1 carbine, got one from CMP. I love it's light weight, it's sights, and the soft point 30 carbine load is a proven SD cartridge. Quite accurate at 100 yards. I also own an AK and an AR, but the M1 carbine gets the nod for normal beyond the pistol home defense.

Rifleman 173
February 4, 2009, 11:54 PM
M-4 clone that shoots 7.62 X 39 ammo. Best of two worlds. Bigger, more effective bullet and the handling characteristics of an M-4. Mount a red dot or scope on it, zero it at 50 yards and you're good to 300 meters or so.

Hostile Amish
February 5, 2009, 12:18 AM
Any AR-15 with a 16'' - 20'' bbl. using Hornady TAP.

Dirtpile
February 5, 2009, 05:07 AM
Necromancer Alert!!!

With that aside, it really depends on what you feel most comfortable with. If you're too worried about over-penetration or where your bullet might end up if you pick up an AR, will you take the shot?
Same goes for the pistol calibler carbines and buckshot.
This is what should really be taken into consideration. Especially when collateral damage is one of your concerns. Whatever choice you make should be whatever is most comfortable and practical for YOU. Whether it be a handgun, black rifle or boomstick. If your close quarters are truly close then handguns should be at the top of the list. Though if you have more room then a carbine or shotgun will serve you better. Now ask youself "Which is the best fit for me?" A 12ga. pump while reliable and deadly as hell isn't the best choice for everybody. Even with practice not everybody can make quick follow-up shots or swing a pumper all to well. An autoloader might work for some of these people but at the cost of reliabilty. Then there are those people who just can't get the swing of a shotgun at all. They would be better off with a rifle. Now the question becomes "Which scares me the least? A .223 or a 9mm?" This refering to potential bystander casualties. The answer to this question should determine the choice, because if you're too afraid to actaullly take a shot why bother to even pick up the gun in the first place.

And now on to what I would ideally choose to pick up, which would be a single fire MP5 or CX4 with lightwieght Gold-Dots do their easy handling, soft shooting, low noise/flash and good capacity.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
February 5, 2009, 09:38 AM
Did we really need to revive?

Anyhow, the answer lies within reach:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=418805&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=420996&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=404487&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400528&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397093&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=393577&highlight=xcr

etc.

Caliber of your choice: 7.62x39, 5.56.x45, 6.8 SPC.

.72 caliber Brown Bess.

The smoke screen allows for a tactical escape.

Now that's funny right there. :D

H2O MAN
February 5, 2009, 09:45 AM
If my Glock 21 is not up to the task I'll pick up my Norinco T56SHTF and have at it :evil:

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Norinco-T56SHTF-12.08.2008-small.jpg

Travis Bickle
February 5, 2009, 10:18 AM
.72 caliber Brown Bess.

The smoke screen allows for a tactical escape.

Bro, do you know Gecko45?

Art Eatman
February 5, 2009, 12:21 PM
Enuf necrothreadia and repetitious gratuities. :D

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