Need an article on how "child murder rates" are skewed by the grabbers...


Jim March
August 9, 2004, 12:30 PM
We all know that a common Brady/VPC trick is to tally "children" up to age 21 or sometimes beyond who get shot, scream about how "chiiiiildren are being kiiiiiiled!" and hope the idiots listen think in terms of toddlers taking stray rounds instead of the usual reality where the "dead child" was a gangbanger with a long rap sheet.

I know there have been studies rebutting this whole tactic and line of reasoning, but I'm having a hard time googling for same. Anybody got some good links?

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August 9, 2004, 12:53 PM,2933,113094,00.html

"Do Gun Control Activists Pad Gun Death Statistics?"

August 9, 2004, 01:05 PM

Opinion - ASK the gun foes to be truthful

Thursday, August 5, 2004
ELIZABETH HOVDE Columbian staff writer


Then, in the context that asking about guns in friends' homes saves lives, Vancouver Police Chief Brian Martinek said that 12 Clark County children were killed by firearms between 1997 and 2001.

The statistic surprised me. I didn't recall reading about so many tragedies involving kids who came across firearms accidentally in those years. In 2003, 10-year-old Emily Randall of Battle Ground was killed by her 13-year-old brother, who picked up and fired his father's service pistol. But her death would be outside of the statistic for the five-year time period mentioned.


So I asked the Health Department to crunch the data for me. When they did, John R. Sabel, with the department's Injury Prevention Program, confirmed that there were actually 13 deaths involving Clark County children and firearms in the time frame mentioned at the ASK press conference.

And here are the numbers behind the number: None of these firearms deaths between 1997 and 2001 was unintentional as in kids playing with guns that they came across in a closet or some such. Further, the majority of these "Clark County children" were actually 18 or 19 years old. None of them was younger than 15.


August 9, 2004, 01:05 PM
"Do Gun Control Activists Pad Gun Death Statistics?"

Does a bear defacate in the woods?

August 9, 2004, 01:18 PM
Linky to articles (

Accidental gun deaths tragically claim children's lives, though fortunately they are much rarer than most people might think. During 2000 there were 37 accidental gun deaths for children under 10 in the U.S. In 1999 there were 31, and only six of these cases actually involved a child firing the gun. Indeed from 1995 to 1999 the entire United States saw only between five and nine cases a year where a child under ten either accidentally shot themselves or another child.

Obviously we want to avoid any deaths where possible, but some perspective is useful. With over 90 million adults owning a gun and almost 40 million children under 10, it is hard to think of almost any other potentially dangerous products kept in American homes that have as few accidental deaths associated with them. Over 1,260 children under ten died in cars in 1999. Another 370 died as pedestrians hit by cars. Accidents involving residential fires took 484 children's lives. Even 92 children under the age of five drowned accidentally in bathtubs.

The overwhelming majority of gun owners must be extremely careful or such gun accidents would be much more frequent.

another link (

August 9, 2004, 01:33 PM
I don't have an article reference, but my usual "counter" is "Name Them."

Two points:

First of all when you consider the press coverage that a child getting shot tends to generate, if their numbers were even remotely accurate, places like CNN wouldn't have time to run any other news....

Second, the age limits they use are silly. An 18-year-old can vote, buy a long gun, and a sixteen-year-old can (try to) drive a car. Some of those "statistics" go up to 25....

Apparently one of those misled mommies groups did put up a web site purporting to answer my initial challenge and name the victims. I've not seen it myself, but a friend who's input I trust reported that some of the children were over 35....

These are the same people who think that a flash hider makes a plinker into an "assault weapon", too.... Some of them just believe this stuff, and some are victims of the "big lie"....

Flush the two Johns....

August 9, 2004, 01:41 PM

Look here under the section "Youth Homicides ("

Harry Tuttle
August 9, 2004, 01:46 PM
just roll on over to Wisqars and run the numbers yerself:

2001, United States
Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races,
Both Sexes,
ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24, Y35.0,*U01.4

Number of Crude
Age Group Race Deaths Population Rate

00-04 White 51 15,083,527 0.34
Black 25 3,157,510 0.79
Am Indian/AK Native 5* 252,218 1.98*
Asian/Pac Islander 0* 870,300 0.00*
------------ -------------- -------
81 19,363,555 0.42

05-09 White 61 15,685,101 0.39
Black 16* 3,376,623 0.47*
Am Indian/AK Native 2* 283,614 0.71*
Asian/Pac Islander 0* 862,786 0.00*
------------ -------------- -------
79 20,208,124 0.39

10-14 White 180 16,298,488 1.10
Black 64 3,441,697 1.86
Am Indian/AK Native 5* 304,100 1.64*
Asian/Pac Islander 5* 866,155 0.58*
------------ -------------- -------
254 20,910,440 1.21

15-19 White 1,418 15,960,676 8.88
Black 1,033 3,134,488 32.96
Am Indian/AK Native 38 288,873 13.15
Asian/Pac Islander 34 887,275 3.83
------------ -------------- -------
2,523 20,271,312 12.45

------------------- ------------ -------------- -------
Total 2,937 80,753,431 3.64


10 Leading Causes of Death,
2001, All Races, Both Sexes

Group Rank Deaths Cause of Death

1 11,196 Unintentional Injury
2 2,640 Homicide
3 2,160 Malignant Neoplasms
4 1,890 Suicide
5 1,188 Congenital Anomalies
6 844 Heart Disease
7 270 Influenza & Pneumonia
8 234 Septicemia
9 221 Chronic Low. Respiratory Disease
10 210 Benign Neoplasms


2001 United States
Unintentional Injuries
Ages 1-19, All Races, Both Sexes
Total Deaths: 11,196

Cause of Death Number of Deaths

MV Traffic 7,208
Drowning 1,113
Fire/burn 558
Poisoning 487
Suffocation 315
Other Land Transport 269
Pedestrian, Other 211
Fall 186
Firearm 182
Other Transport 137
Unspecified 120
Other Spec., classifiable 104
Struck by or Against 99
Natural/ Environment 93
Machinery 38
Pedal cyclist, Other 35
Other Spec., NECN 34
Cut/pierce 7
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------
Total 11,196

So for 2001, out of ~3000 firearm deaths in "Children", 182 are unintentional

specific to California for 2001:
2001 California
Unintentional Injuries
Ages 1-19, All Races, Both Sexes
Total Deaths: 964

Cause of Death Number of Deaths

MV Traffic 625
Drowning 135
Pedestrian, Other 32
Fire/burn 29
Suffocation 26
Poisoning 19
Firearm 15
Fall 14
Other Land Transport 14
Unspecified 12
Pedal cyclist, Other 9
Struck by or Against 8
Other Spec., classifiable 7
Other Transport 7
Natural/ Environment 6
Machinery 3
Other Spec., NECN 3
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------
Total 964

Jim March
August 9, 2004, 02:00 PM

Great stuff, guys, thanks!

August 9, 2004, 02:55 PM
Yeah, I always laugh whenever somebody tries to use some of those in a debate and the study they cite has everyone 25 and under as a "child".

Harry Tuttle
August 9, 2004, 03:40 PM
Heres a typical Ceasefire MD report:
CeaseFire MD: Assault Weapons Threaten Public Health and Safety

CeaseFire Maryland
3000 Chestnut Avenue
Baltimore, MD 21211

Leah Barrett
Phone: 410-889-1477

In Four Months, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban Will Expire Unless Strengthened and Renewed by Congress and Signed by the President

Baltimore, MD - Johns Hopkins doctors, faculty from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and the Baltimore City Health Commissioner presented strong evidence about the epidemic of gun violence in the United States and why it needs to be addressed as an urgent public health problem. The impending expiration of the 1994 federal assault weapons ban on September 13th motivated today's event at the Johns Hopkins Hospital.

Dr. Alex Haller, former Chief of Pediatric Surgery and Director of Children's Trauma at Johns Hopkins, declared: "If we as a society cannot agree to renew and strengthen a ban on military-style assault weapons, whose only purpose is to kill large numbers of people efficiently, then how can we hope to successfully address the wider problem of gun violence? Assault weapons pose an unacceptable risk to public safety and in particular, to our law enforcement officers on the front lines. Between 1998 and 2001, at least one in five police officers slain in the line of duty was killed by an assault weapon."

Dr. Edward Cornwell, Chief of Adult Trauma at Johns Hopkins, commented: "You wouldn't want to see the damage these weapons can do to human tissue. It isn't a pretty sight. Trauma surgeons from around the world come to American inner cities to learn how to treat these wounds that normally occur in war zones. But we are fighting our own war here where 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence. People must begin to see this carnage for what it is -- an urgent public health crisis."

The doctors were joined by Maryland Attorney General Joseph Curran who spoke of the need to pass a strong state ban on military-style assault rifles and highlighted the failure of the General Assembly to pass a ban during the 2004 session. He said: "I agree with the 77% of Marylanders who support a ban on assault weapons from our streets, and I join with these outstanding doctors who have to deal with the public health crisis caused by these weapons day in and day out." In the 2004 Maryland General Assembly, a state assault rifles ban failed in Committee by a single vote, cast by Senator John A. Giannetti, Jr (D - Dist. 21).

The 1994 ban outlaws specific models of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons. But in a willful attempt to violate the spirit of the law, the gun industry continues to manufacture "post-ban" assault weapons -- guns identical to those banned except for minor cosmetic changes. The Bushmaster XM15 used in the 2002 DC-area sniper attacks, for example, is a "post-ban" version of the AR15 assault rifle, which is banned under current law. CeaseFire MD calls on Congress to pass legislation that would stop the gun industry from manufacturing "post-ban" assault weapons such as the Bushmaster XM15. Maryland crime tracing data from ATF shows a 67% increase in the seizure of copycat assault weapons since the federal ban went into effect in 1994. This shows the need to close the gaping loopholes in the federal law.

Several speakers acknowledged the terrible toll handguns take on lives in Maryland. According to the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, 607 Marylanders died from guns in 2001. Leah Barrett, Executive Director of CeaseFire Maryland said: "There have been two high-profile shootings of children during the past few weeks here in the Baltimore area, both in Randallstown. One involved a four-year-old boy who found a loaded handgun in a gym bag on his parents' sofa and shot himself in the head. The other was just last week following a high school charity basketball game where four students were wounded, two seriously. We are committed to educating parents that kids and guns don't mix and to working with law enforcement to ensure our existing strong gun laws are properly implemented and enforced."

Date of Release: May 13th, 2004

Hello Wisqars!

2001, Maryland
Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races,
Both Sexes,
ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24, Y35.0,*U01.4

Number of Crude
Age Group Deaths Population Rate

00-04 2* 358,370 0.55*
05-09 1* 381,872 0.26*
10-14 5* 402,990 1.24*
15-19 73 368,894 19.79
20-24 110 325,355 33.81
25-29 102 331,978 30.72
30-34 72 407,209 17.68
35-39 59 461,553 12.78
40-44 41 463,140 8.85
45-49 35 412,574 8.48
50-54 25 370,610 6.75
55-59 18* 283,181 6.35*
60-64 16* 208,836 7.66*
65-69 10* 169,730 5.89*
70-74 11* 151,892 7.24*
75-79 12* 129,202 9.28*
80-84 10* 87,895 11.37*
85+ 5* 70,798 7.06*
------------------- ------------ -------------- -------
Total 607 5,386,079 11.27

so theres the 607, now lets look at part of how:

2001, Maryland
Suicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races,
Both Sexes,
ICD-10 Codes: X72-X74

Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Deaths Population Rate Rate**

220 5,386,079 4.08 4.11

it seems to me the older "Children" are a problem:

2001, Maryland
Homicide/Legal Intervention Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races,
Both Sexes,
15 to 34 year olds
ICD-10 Codes: X93-X95,Y35.0, *U01.4

Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Race Deaths Population Rate Rate**

White 32 892,226 3.59 3.64
Black 249 455,748 54.64 55.20
Am Indian/AK Native 0* 6,219 0.00* 0.00*
Asian/Pac Islander 2* 79,243 2.52* 2.49*
---------------------- ------------ -------------- ------- ---------------
Total 283 1,433,436 19.74

so out of 387 non suicide firearm deaths in Maryland in 2001,
283 are 15-34 year olds

Adding above 15 year olds into the group of "children" gives Sarah Brady her marketable 13 per day number.

Art Eatman
August 9, 2004, 05:28 PM
The CDC has a further breakdown in smaller age-segments for accidental deaths. For children 14 and under, it varies a bit in the neighborhood of some 120 to 140 per year. (Auto accidents claim around 3,000/yr; drowning, around 1,100/yr.)

You can probably get there through Tuttle's link...


August 9, 2004, 08:55 PM
Here are some facts (though they are kind of old). The first few are about children.

August 11, 2004, 12:52 AM
Compliments of the dot-gov PDFfile18-20 (

Nice charts.

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