Ergonomics


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4thHorseman
February 18, 2003, 01:23 AM
I believe way before anyone even knew the term "ergonmics," the gun makers of the early 1900's like S&W and Colt knew the way a gun MUST feel. Case in point, a S&W revolver or a model 1911.
Almost everyone that has held one has said that this gun style feels just right.
A hundred years later Glock, H&K, Sig has followers, but they just don't have the same feel for pointing and balance that the older guns do.
I find this interesting to the point of incredible.
Its not a matter of reliablity I'm stating, just a look and a feel. Kinda of an intangible thing.
Is it because that is how a gun should feel or is it because that is the way we learned (perceived) a gun should feel?

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Shane
February 18, 2003, 01:31 AM
Case in point, a S&W revolver or a model 1911.
Almost everyone that has held one has said that this gun style feels just right.

S&W revolvers, yes, in my hands they FEEL great. Except of course, the Hogue grips with finger grooves that most new S&W revolvers come with never fit me right--I really HATE finger grooves.


1911's....No. Straight style grips do not feel good in my hands. That is one of the reasons I sold my Colt 1911--the main reason was its reliability. The only grips that feel good in my hands have some curvature to them. Most DA revolver grips feel good, as do Sig Sauer and CZ grips--all of which have some degree of curvature in the backstrap. Thats just me though, and of course YMMV.

Kaylee
February 18, 2003, 01:52 AM
The only grips that feel good in my hands have some curvature to them.

You mean like in a 1911A1? ;)

Shane
February 18, 2003, 01:57 AM
^Mine had a straight back strap grip. It felt straight to me.

rick458
February 18, 2003, 04:19 AM
My first Pistol was a Browning High Power and it fit me like part of my body, I was stolen and I replaced it with a 1911. I had looked at 1911s , (I bought a Smith 3914) but unloaded they felt like bricks too nose heavy and unnatural, then I got to shoot a nice gov't model with a mag full of 230 gr in the frame, Fire arms perfection
I could not believe how the magazine perfectly balanced the pistol.
Now even a HP does not feel as natural to me as a nice 1911

swingset
February 18, 2003, 06:07 AM
Yup, couldn't agree more - the older the better - this is always true, never any exceptions!

I find that a Blunderbuss just fits my hand naturally, as does the straight, iron barrel of a matchlock hand gonne....those guys musta known a thing or two about ergonomics.

Same with cars! Just look at a Model A and you know that comfort and useability was concern #1! Just compare that with the cold, unfeeling interior of a BMW 9 series and you'll see it clearly.

Howabout furniture!?!? Ever sleep on a wood plank with straw on top?? What bliss. Compared to a modern Posturepedic, I just can't get a good night's sleep without some hickory under my frame!


(Tongue in cheek here, I think ergonomics are individual and ongoing - I can't stand the feel of old revolvers, yet find a Sig 220 perfect and intuitive. Likewise I think a 1959 Fender Strat is nearly impossible to improve, so there ya go)

10-Ring
February 18, 2003, 10:49 AM
When you don't have the choices, you learn to work w/ what you have. When you're limited to a relatively few revolvers & autos, you train & accept what you have. Today, there are so many alternatives that you don't have to go w/ the crowd, you can shop around and get what works best for you.

BigG
February 18, 2003, 11:01 AM
a 1959 Fender Strat is nearly impossible to improve

Ditto. I would think a 1911/1911A1 is singularly unergonomic. Try a Luger. Now that's difficult to improve as to feel.

Art Eatman
February 18, 2003, 12:38 PM
I've always found it interesting that ol' Sam'l Colt came up with a shape for the SAA which is natural to point, whether from the hip or held out front.

The rake-angle of the Luger doesn't work as well from the hip; the 1911 to me is much like the SAA.

However, it's mostly in the size and shape of one's hand. Maybe it's just decades of use of the 1911, but I don't care for the shape of a double-stack pistol. They just feel awkward, as does a double-action trigger on a self-loader. And, I prefer a straight grip on the 1911 over the 1911A1--but that's just me; it ain't necessarily righteous for others.

:), Art

Skunkabilly
February 18, 2003, 12:44 PM
My dad learned to shoot on my USP and prefers the table leg grip over the 1911's.

Revolvers feel awful in my paws...dunno why.

And the Berettas feel so....me

Andrew Wyatt
February 18, 2003, 12:55 PM
I find the single stack 1911 to be about the perfect autopistol, feel wise.


I also like the feel of a mini-14 over that of an m-16, even though it supposedly has superior ergonomics.

twoblink
February 18, 2003, 08:09 PM
I love the way Sig's feel. Had my gf try a Sig replica yesterday; her hands are like || this big, and so it didn't feel good in her hands.

There is no such thing has the perfect feeling gun, as all hands are different. But some (Sigs, Kahrs, HP's etc..) are a lot more ergonomic then others (Grocks, HK's)

sm
February 18, 2003, 09:12 PM
Art makes a good point.
I'm big on gun fit...regardless if it be handgun, shotgun or rifle.

Like so many I learned to shoot what was available " I fit myself to the firearm ". Contorted myself and made do. I agree some older mfgs. were better about this - i. e. SAA or the 1911.
Another was shotguns...once I learned and had a proper fitting shotgun...my shooting improved greatly. Sure, since thousands and thousands of rds later (used to shoot at min., 500 rds a week) I can 'get by with most anything...though been know to use a styrofaom cup and electrical tape to raise a comb, if moleskin not around...

There is a reason why for marketing, mfgs sell a 'generic fit'...$. Many years ago with machined parts, and hand fitting more choices taken into consideration...pick up and old Colt woodsman, Model 18 22 revolver.. . pre 64 model 70 , a model 12 pump, ...etc.

Yes a straight grip on a 1911 fits me better also. Interesting how deputies we have practice before quals 'bash and trash" an antiquated design....they can't hit a 9' paper plate at 7 yds , but they have a name brand , expensive , super duper , look cool because other depts use and issue. Hand them the 'antiquated 1911...OMG ...they hit the target...5 times in a row!!

Gun fit is a must.
BTW the deputies were told the reason they have "issued" firearm was price...said company met the bid...not that the firearm was 'the best".

cheygriz
February 18, 2003, 11:47 PM
I've never liked the "feel" of S&W revolvers. I love the feel of the Colt Single Action Army. The Python and Anaconda feel good to me as well.

In autos, the 1911 has got to be the worst 2X4 feeling club I've ever shot. To me, the BHP, and P-38 are almost as bad. They feel entirely unnatural. The Luger feels great to me, as do the Glocks and the Sigs.

For rifles, I've never held a rifle in my hands that felt as absolutely perfect as the AR-15. I dearly love the feel of the HK-91 amd the FAL, but even they can't compare to perfect feel of the AR-15.

Just my tastes, yours might be different.

Thumper
February 18, 2003, 11:54 PM
I've owned and carried just about everything out there at one time or another.

I'd never use one for daily carry because of the whole .380 thing, but the Beretta 84 is the best feelin' and pointin' gun I've ever picked up.

BigG
February 19, 2003, 09:01 AM
I agree pretty much with what Cheygriz said, although the S&W revo and the Colt 45 Auto are my favorites in their respective genres. Go figger.

The S&W target grips got the coolness factor down but feel blocky. Lots of guys get the custom grips that are smaller at the bottom than the top. They are truly ergonomic, ie, the fit your hand, but they look like dog turds to me.

The original Colt AR15 is just about the best feeling rifle I've ever handled. Colt Model P (SAA) is also a great feeling gun.

I also like the Glock and SIG P Series feel.

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