How is Walmart bulk pack 12 ga for defense?

[Min]

Either Federal or Remington...good home defense loads? Which is better by the way?

[Lee Lapin]

Min,

Choice of shotgun loads for defensive use is a sticky subject. Some people refuse to consider small shot/birdshot loads at all, and will use nothing but buckshot or slugs. Others prefer birdshot, for various reasons.

There's nothing at all wrong with the value pack offerings from either manufacturer, assuming they will run in a given gun with absolute reliability (and some guns do have trouble with them). And at contact distance out to across-the-room range, performance of either should be pretty much identical- that is, a clump of shot producing pretty much a single ragged hole rather than a pattern as such. For very close range defensive use there is no doubt birdshot can be effective.

It is at longer ranges that things get more problematical- what I call "down-the-hall" range, rather than in the same room range. Once birdshot patterns begin to open up their effectiveness as a defensive load goes down. The problem is lack of penetration- or the advantage is lack of penetration, depending on the circumstances. See what I mean about sticky subjects?

At very close range (a few feet) birdshot will act like a slug- it'll go through drywall or paneling, and can still do damage on the other side. Once the shot leaves the wad/cup/whatever (6- 12 feet from the muzzle more or less, depending on numerous variables) and begins to spread, its penetration will be reduced in proportion to the distance it travels.

Some considerations are:

How far is the longest shot you might have to take?

Who else lives in the house with you? How is the house built?

Is it an apartment/condo?

How close are the nearest neighbors?

Will you ever have to take your defensive shotgun outside the house?

lpl/nc

[priv8ter]

Last fall, I went blasting some pumpkins, kind of testing shotgun loads. My results showed that while there was a difference between slugs and shot, at 10-15 feet there wasn't much of a difference between different shot sizes.

So...while I have 2 boxes of slugs, and three of #4 Buck for my 20ga, the load I prefer for interior home defense situations is Wal-Mart Bulk Pack 20ga 7.5 shot.

Now, we are buying a house this month, and at that point my max distance is going to increase a bit over what it is in my apartment, so I may shift to buck as my prefered load.

Looks like it's time to go buy some more pumpkins...

greg

[R.H. Lee]

If they are low base bird loads-#7 or #8 shot-I wouldn't even consider them for defense. Get buckshot and/or slugs. Federal makes a low recoil "Personal Defense" load, #4 buck, I think. :)

[birdv]

Bird shot is not for homeuse. FYI don't shoot them at plastic barrels either the barrel with laugh and send the shot back.

I use buck shot. They make a tactical round that has a sleave cup thingy that holds the shot for 15 feet and then the fins pop out. It gives a great group. But before 15 feet you might as well just use slugs.

[lbmii]

I must disagree with some of the above posts. My test with Wal Mart 3 dram 1 1/8 oz bird shot has gone pretty well. I did a chrono on the Federal Field and Target 3 Dr, 1 1/8 oz, 8 shot and got 1099 fps and 1117 fps from my 20 inch barrel. The shot stays in a concentrated area at close range and would cause a completely devastating wound to an opponent. The small shot creates a very large surface area and at close range will give adequate penetration. The shot will also lose its’ velocity quickly as well as its’ penetration ability and this gives it an advantage in many home defense situations.

[VeT|Us]

When I'm out plinking with the shotty I often use old coca cola bottles at various ranges for targets for 7.5 Shot, and inside 10 meters I think a threat beeing shot once or twice would be at the ground screaming.

But, there is no substitute for 00 buck or, if you don't have to care about neighbors, Slugs.

At around metes I fired 7.5 shot at an old expired bottle of soda, and soda went spraying everywhere from tiny holes. Fired 00 at it, no more bottle.
I wouldn't want to get shot with 7.5 myself, but I WOULD want 00 Buck if I knew I had to defend myself with my shottie.

-------

My dealer is out of 00 Buck for a while, anyone have any thoughts about using #1 Shot for HD?

[lbmii]

By #1 shot did you mean birdshot or buckshot?

I am using Remington Single Ought Buck 12 Pellet for home defense. I had very good patterns with Winchester #1 Buck 16 pellet and would have no problems using it for home defense. Many consider #1 Buck 16 pellet to be the best antipersonnel load for the 12 gauge shotgun. No 1 buck gives you good penetration, more pellets to increase the chances of hitting vital spots, and a much higher cross sectional wound area than OO buck.

It is hard to find #O and #1 buckshot and I have to order it all online and pay shipping.

As far as birdshot goes I like the Remington Long Range 3 3/4 Dr Eq 1 1/4 oz in #4 or #2 or BB shot.

But it all depends on your particular situation.

[sendec]

Other than at contact distances where the gas plume will do about as much damage as the shot, I cannot imagine wanting to use such a light load for defense. Heck, sometimes it does'nt even stop a bird, so it is probably less certain on a person. I'd stick with buck or slugs.

[Mannlicher]

anything you can stuff in to a shotgun will work for defense.

[lbmii]

The below link is a report done on a Canadian experiment to determine the penetration ability of various sizes of birdshot at different velocities. People should not underestimate the lethality of birdshot within home defense distances.

This is a fairly long Adobe download but it is an interesting report.

http://www.cprc.org/tr/1998/03/tr-1998-03.pdf

[Ryan1021]

How would a turkey shell do in a home defense situation. I have a box of 3in 2oz 4 shot, does anyone have any idea of the stopping power this shell posses?

[Dave McCracken]

2 oz of shot, Ryan, will do the job. So will 1/2 oz. Shotguns have oodles of energy to transfer, much more than handgun cartridges. The miniscule 410 packs more ME than all but the most powerful handguns.

The downside of using that 2 oz load is kick. It wil take longer to get off a second shot.

[Al Thompson]

The biggest issue is your evaluation of your engagement area. :)

I live in a subdivision and have to be carefull of the overpenetration issues. When I was in condos and apartments, the issue of overpenetration became more of a concern.

FWIW, I have killed critters with birdshot and you indeed have to be close. Obviously, in most places a HD shooting would probably be close. How close is important. IMHO, my first up load of #2 birdshot would work fine in my house as my most probable max engagement is 4 to 6 yards. The shotgun in the bedroom has one round of #2s followed by #4 buck due to the long hallway outide my bedroom. The 870 at the other end of the house has a trap load of #7.5s followed by the #2s - most of the angles there point at my neighbors homes (though inside my abode).

I do like the pumps ability to mix the loads and the addition of different loads in the sidesaddle. :)

Flexibility in a HD SG is a good thing. :D

[PzGren]

Somehow I have the fear to loosing my eyes to birdshot. It scares me more, than being gutshot. In a metropolitan area, they can bring you to a good medical facility fast to mend most everything - but when you loose your eyes - lights out.

I would consider the pattering good enough up to 40 feet. However, I like 00.

[Coronach]

In a metropolitan area, they can bring you to a good medical facility fast to mend most everythingWell, not quite. If it were so simple, hardly anyone would ever die when cops and robbers play cops and robbers.

As those in the know have said above: it all depends on engagement distance, and how concerned you are about overpenetration. If you're not at all concerned about overpenetrating, shoot buckshot and forget about it- just figure out what brand/load patterns best out of your gun. If you are concerned about overpenetration (and if you live in an apartment you should be), you need to evaluate your longest likely shot, then start doing some testing to see what patterns and penetration look like at that distance.

As they have said before- at bed-to-bedroom-door ranges, the BG won't know if he was hit by a field load or a freight train. You basically have a really big Glaser Safety Slug at that distance...all the shot is in the cup.

Mike

[patent]

In the distances I'd have in my house, if you hit him with any standard load coming out of a 12 guage its going to end the discussion, unless you have someone wearing something that stops shot. I personally prefer #4, but wouldn't hesitate to use whatever I had.

I think its more important to pattern it and make sure its a tight group at your home defense ranges.

patent

[WhiteKnight]

In the distances I'd have in my house, if you hit him with any standard load coming out of a 12 guage its going to end the discussion, unless you have someone wearing something that stops shot.

I think the blunt trauma would be enough to temporarily put him (her?) down. If that doesn't suffice, you should have enough time from the hindrance of the first shot on the attacker to compose yourself enough to send a second shot into the face area. Or legs. Or groin...

[Moparmike]

I measured the distance in my urban home, from front door to the other side of the house. 13yds to the front door if I stand IN the kitchen sink. I use #8 Federal ValPak.

[SkunkApe]

Other than at contact distances where the gas plume will do about as much damage as the shot, I cannot imagine wanting to use such a light load for defense. Heck, sometimes it does'nt even stop a bird, so it is probably less certain on a person.

I agree. I wonder if the advocates of birdshot for home defense have ever hunted with it. #7-1/2 is too light for rabbits, let alone humans. I've seen a squirrel hit with a load of 7-1/2s out of a 20-gauge that managed to hang onto a branch with his paw for several minutes before dropping to the ground. Light shot in small mammalian game is often found lodged between to the skin and muscles, with no significant penetration into the body.

Its called "birdshot" for a reason.

[Onmilo]

Federal discontinued the Personal Defense Loads this year.
It was only available in 20 guage.
Too bad too, it was a good concept but only made available in 20 guage.
The load was approx 7/8 ounce of #2 shot moving around 1050 feet per second.
Chamber load in my personal 12 guage Shotgun is a 1 1/8 ounce #4 field load, next four are low recoil 00 buckshot and the last shell is a deer slug.

[Dave McCracken]

Skunkape, whack a watermelon at 7 or 8 yards with a skeet load of 9s. After wiping your glasses off after, note the damage.

Birdshot is devastating when it hits still in the wad or a palm sized or smaller pattern. For many of us, that covers HD use nicely.

Once again, it's best to measure the longest possible shot opp in the house, add one yard for GPs, and pattern loads at that distance. If overpenetration is a worry due to the use environment and the possible distance short enough that birdshot will be in that palm sized cluster or tighter, use it.

Otherwise, pattern buck of divers sizes until the Golden Load announces its arrival.

[lbmii]

To back up Dave McCracken's comments see the below photo of a birdshot pattern at close range (about 7 yards).

Attached is PMC Number 4 birdshot 1 ¼ ounce, 3 ¾ Dr Eqv at about 7 yards, 20" barrel modified choke. Other birdshot loads are of a very similar pattern at 7 yards. This includes the Walmart bulk packs in Remington and Winchester.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1028451

The rest of my pattern photos as well some good pattern photos by Black_Talon, can be found here:


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83909

[SkunkApe]

Dave,

I'm really hesitant to question your opinion on anything having to do with shotguns, but I've seen what small shot does to squirrels, rabbits, and even a racoon at close range. The results are not encouraging. Watermelons aren't covered with hide. Do you have any info of birdshot tests in ballistic gelatin? I'd guess that #7-1/2 shot penetrates less than 3" at 20 feet. With a leather jacket covering, even less. Is there really a big difference between twenty, and say, five or ten feet?

Respectfully,

SkunkApe

[Dave McCracken]

A few decades ago Mel Tappan did some gelatin tests with 6 shot. At 15 yards, he judged the penetration inadequate, though I do not recall the numbers.

I've recovered squirrels shot with 6s and seen pellets just under the hide myself. However, range was much longer than what's possible in Casa McC.

BTW, Melons have about the same percentage of water we do. Hydrastatic shock values are similar.

[SkunkApe]

Check out this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98976

I've seen a guy hit by birdshot at about six yards and while the wounds were messy, quite survivable.

-MrMurphy

[USMC_2674]

In case you didn't read the reports above, the 7 1/2 birdshot tested by the Canadian authorities in gelatin, penetrated to around 3" at 15 YARDS, not ft.

I don't advocate using birdshot 7 1/2 IF you have something else (I prefer #4 Buck), but I wouldn't hesitate to use it inside of apartment / home distances of around 5-7 yards if that is what I had available. I would be using it over my 9mm or .45ACP sidearms. Again, I don't have to do that since I use #4 Buck... but just an option.

Semper Fidelis

[ThreadKiller]

I almost hate to mention this as it's bound to be controversial. Out in western Nebraska, they shoot a lot of coyotes. A LOT of coyotes. Many are shot by shotguns when they're called in close.... say 40 yards or so. My brother, who has shot a lot of coyotes with all manner of weaponry, swears by steel shot, large steel shot. Goose huntin' size shot like BB. He says steel will drop coyotes like lightning at 40 yards. It doesn't deform like lead and patterns tight.

Coyotes are about the toughest critter I know of. My Mom once shot a chicken coop raidin' coyote at about 20 yards. Hit him with barrel one with lead 4's. He rolled, got up and looked back at her. Barrel two caught him broadside with a load of lead BB. Same act. He rolled, got up, looked back and then ran away over the top of hill. Most certainly he died the same day, but he did get up twice after being hit twice and ran away. I can't imagine a human being suffering the same abuse and walking away.

Something to consider IMHO.

I'm no expert on this subject by any means, but my gut tells me that 1 1/4 ozs of lead 6's at 1300 FPS at household ranges is going to end the argument right now. 2's would be better of course. Talk about your flying sledgehammers.

Tim

(Stick around and maybe I'll tell ya the story of how my Dad shot a coyote in his underwear.) :)

[TrapperReady]

Threadkiller - How in the heck did your dad wind up with a coyote in his underwear? ;) :D

[sm]

I've been watching this thread. :D

Lee mentioned the most important question - Reliablity.

I never read where Min mentioned what type of platform he was going to be putting ammo in. :)

Reliabilty of ammo in one's gun. I'm not just talking semi's having a problem either- some of the less expensive loadings AND others may not feed or extract, in pumps, it can happen in O/U, SxS, and even Single bbls.

Recommened to run a min of 200 rds of ammo picked.

Others stated / has been repeated before, measure the longest distance and add one yard. Then pattern the ammo at that yardage. Birdshot - 1 1/8 oz of #8 lead is approx 461 pellets of .09 diameter traveling @~ 1200 fps. [B lbmi [/B] pic shows similar what this Fed Multi Pack will do. Yea, I have shot a pattern board a time or two. Basically - as stated - 7 yds and closer...something is going to stop an immediate action. I can see this being in close quarters with thin walls like an Apt.

One thing Dave, Al , and Coronach mentioned - and bears repeating : What is YOUR enviroment/ percieved threat/ and avenues of fighting?

What if the fight goes outside, what if if goes to shooting down / up the stairs....windows, patio doors....what if you need to shoot Through the glass French doors because the perp is standing on the other side about to shoot you through them. Glass does funny things to projectiles ....any of them.

[sm]

I'm going to repeat this yet again - I apologize to those who have seen it before. I just had this converstaion with someone today...

I know Dave, Al , Coronach and Erik G ...perhaps ..have done what I have done. I have been inside a real house and shot various Shotgun/ Handgun/ Rifle loads. There is a difference in "new " , "old" , "farm" and "barn" constructions. There is a difference in dragging out building materials and shooting them and these materials being in fact part of a structure.

I have shot INTO and OUT from vehicles. Let me tell you birdshot sucks bigtime if one is sitting inside a vehicle and trying to shoot through the back glass.

Yes I used protecitive gear. Motorcylcle helmets with face shields are adviseable as well...



Real set ups in use:

-My apt ,
I am on top floor with a neighbor each side. My shotgun is loaded with slugs only - on those occasisons I keep one here. <GASP> .

For ME , My biggest threat is answering the door, entering or leaving. I have a CCW on my hip and there may or may not be others on my person or handy. I don't have much room, situations will be close, I have furniture arranged for "zones of fire" , and COVER , which is not the same as Concealment.

Basically I keep CCWs here only - other stuff off site. If I have a shotgun here , it has slugs, for if I need it , it means I am headed out the door going somewhere or, I have to shoot a threat outside. I have Brick stairwell in front of me and a wooded area b/t me and back neighbors....I will be shooting DOWN into thick woods. Most realistic - I'm headed somewhere where slugs work best...

-My mom,
Due to arthritis, 20 ga NEF Single shot with #3 buckshot. She has a brick home, Zones of fire . Cover in her bedroom.

- House-sit #1,
BIG two story house, has brick and rock as part of architecture. Glass French doors , really thick fancy stained type in multiple areas . House setting off by itself. Neighbors "over yonder". That model 870 has a Surefire fore end, no sidesaddle , no fancy sights, no mag extension. 20 " bbl with vent rib and oversize front and a mid bead. Very handy , easy to manipulate , when it is grabbed extra rds are grabbed , 8 in a holder that slips over belt or waistband. Dump pouch dealie , can be slung across chest as well...

If I have to bust brick, glass, stone or mortar....slugs ,, crittters outside... I'm using slugs only, again I have a CCW, on my hip. There may or may not be other SGs or handguns handy....and quick to access. That may look like a built in ironing board , telecom closet, entertainment center....

House #2 ,

2500 sq ft Ranch style. Neighbors. Fed 9 pellet 00 buck in the bone stock 870 Express combo with the rifle sight bbl ( smooth bore). There might be another Wingmaster around that prefers the Copperplated XX Mag Win 12 pellet 00 buck word is if a 1100 in 12 was around it prefers the Win 00 9 pellet load...the "kids" room has a neat toy chest....1100 20 ga with #3 buck .
Yeah the kid has a 1100 youth size , she is 11 y/o now been shooting since she was 6.

Do not remove her Pom Poms off the wall btw..."mom...just dust around them or something"...:p

Bring Ear Protection if you ever give a kid a air horn to use as a signal in case of fire/ emergency....yes...they will test it...yes they work and are VERY loud. bring extra air canisters....trust me on this....
:eek:

[ThreadKiller]

:) Trapper, that's been the running gag in the family for years now. Still draws a laugh around the Thanksgiving table after all these years. :)

I don't know how many 'yotes we took out on the farm over the years. They killed our sheep and ate a lot of our chickens. Stray dogs were bad news too.

Yep, it was one continuous running gun battle back on the farm. :)

Tim

[seeker_two]

I've always liked #4 birdshot (esp. the plated turkey kind) for indoor SD w/ my coach gun...

...but I always keep the 00 Buck & slugs near at hand for the longer shots.

[lbmii]

The photo below is that of a wet phone book that I shot from 7 yards with Wal-Mart bulk pack Remington 3 DR EQ 1 ounce #7 ½ lead birdshot. The majority of shot created a large hole at the front of the phonebook with some stray shot all around the big center hole. The damage was mostly in the first 1½ inch with still some good amount of damage at 2 inches with a lot of the shot stopping around this point. At 2 ½ inches most of the shot had already stopped and only a few pellets went a little over 3 inches.

This round may have some utility in close in defense where over penetration is a strong concern. However I would be reluctant to use it myself.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1232340

[lbmii]

Just a few inches into the phone book.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1232343

[lbmii]

I have photos of other shotgun rounds tested on phone books (let's just say for now that there is a bit of a difference between buckshot and birdshot). I will start a new thread for all af this stuff eventually. I have posted some photos on steel shot at the below link.

Steel Shot for personal defense? (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100591)

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for posting all this, lbmii. Your work is appreciated.

IMO, wet phone books are a good medium for testing relative effects, but not empirical. I do think that these loads AND steel would work for defensive use inside, but may not be ideal.

After hunting season I plan on doing more testing on my ultralight buck loads. Will advise.

[lbmii]

Just to add some info to the above photos:

I shot one round of single ought buck at two wet phone books at 7 yards and all 12 pellets sliced clear through both of them with ease (about 7 or 8 inches total). The photos did not turn out well.

Here is a dry phone book blasted by a 1 ounce slug! Ouchy!


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1231941
Exit Hole

[Lee Lapin]

Theory is good to discuss, and cuss. Experiments on patterning paper, in gelatin, wetpack and other media are interesting. Teaching youngsters to be careful with a shotgun by letting them explode a watermelon at ten feet is a great educational experience.

Did I ever mention I spent a few years as a medic running ambulances in the Deep South?

Zipping someone into a body bag is even more educational than washing off watermelon juice, especially when that someone was shot several times with 12 ga. birdshot loads at ranges from approximately three to ten feet. The fire department had to be called on to hose down the parking lot on that one. The victim was messing with the wife of a jealous man, who had better control of his aim than his temper. The parking lot was that of a local bar, of the sort sometimes referred to as a 'dive.'

Gathering up and patching up the seriously drunken participants of a shotgun gunfight that took place on beaches across a small river was also instructive. All the wounded were using small shot, #6, 7 1/2 etc., out of whatever shotguns were in the pickup trucks. This was the outgrowth of an argument over heaven only knows what across the river between two parties of drunken rednecks (I do not use the term pejoritavely but only descriptively as I too am a redneck, the key descriptor here is drunken). None of these folks were disabled when we got there though some had taken pellets from multiple gunshots. The starting range was about 40 yards give or take, opening up as the event progressed and the participants retreated/sought cover. There were a couple or three individuals who required hospitalization due to pellets penetrating into thoracic or abdominal cavities, all the others just needed minor medical attention.

The only other shotgun shootings involving birdshot I personally responded to as an EMT were suicides. As an aside, please be nice to those you leave behind and do not commit suicide with a shotgun. It is incredibly messy. And not always 100% effective either, I know of (though I never saw) cases where people blew away significant parts of their anatomy without killing themselves.

Now I know this may sound a little cavalier to some sensitive souls hereabouts. For that I apologize. But undertaking serious thought about being forced into shooting another human person, and actively deciding on details regarding how to go about it (which is after all what we are doing here) is not too likely to come up as a topic of conversation at very many garden parties.

Some may have noted my oft-mentioned advice to be careful, to stay safe, not to AD a shotgun even over and above all other firearms. I say those things because I have SEEN WHAT HAPPENS. Before I got old enough to drive, one of my school friends shot himself in the right thigh with a load of buckshot by using his shotgun to club a fox he had shot while deer hunting. He has a three-inch thick sole on his right shoe to this day, and is incredibly lucky to be here at all.

One of my distant cousins was shot in the head by his younger brother while dove hunting not too long after that. It was a situation very similar to the dove hunting accident I posted about last week that happened near my home. Things like that make you think, they make you very careful- or they should, anyway.

The original question was, how effective is valupack ammo for defense? And the answer will always be, it depends. But do not make the mistake of underestimating the amount of damage that birdshot can and will do at distances measured in a few feet. Surgeons do not call them "rathole wounds" without good reason. Autopsy reports on shotgun victims use terms like "massive crebrocranial disruption," "maceration of the heart and aorta" and "evisceration of the brain."

I am not arguing with anyone who wants to use nothing smaller than buckshot in a HD shotgun. I am not saying birdshot is 'the only way to go.' What I AM saying is that ANYTHING even including blanks can be lethal when fired from a shotgun at close range- a LEO was killed in a training accident near here a couple of years ago by a blank fired from a shotgun. What a given person decides to use in their own home in defense of their own family is a personal decision that should be made on the basis of knowledge not myth, and with all due consideration of relevant circumstances.

Stay safe, y'all,

lpl/nc