.45ACP vs 40S&W vs 357SIG Questions.


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Dak
August 11, 2004, 02:48 AM
Hello I'm new to the site and had some questions about these rounds.I'm going to be buying another pistol before too long and I am trying to decide what caliber to get. I had been wanting a 45 for awhile(specifically a commander sized 1911) but lately have been thinking of maybe a Sig Pro in 40S&W or 357SIG because I can get the conversion barrel and switch between the two.Unfortunatley I probably won't get to shoot any of them before I buy.From what I understand and have read on here the 40's recoil is more snappy than the 45 and the 357 is similar to the 40 but yet different.I have a Ruger P94 9mm and though I haven't got to put alot of rounds through it I do like it quite abit.Also what is the recoil of these rounds like in comparision to the 9mm.I may use it for CCW as well as I plan on taking the training course at the end of this month to be able to get my permit.Basically I like guns and want another one but am only going to be able to afford to get one right now.I just wanted to to get some opinions on these guns and calibers and if you had to pick one what your reccomendation might be.Thanks.

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CZF
August 11, 2004, 03:21 AM
According to some Experts// not myself,as I'm not one//the .357 SIG is really taking off in the LE community.

Texas DPS and others that have adopted it did extensive studies and had
street data to make the choice.

That it was better for stopping power than the SIGs in .45 ACP was shocking to alot of people.

.40 autos are pretty common among police forces, and the round gets
alot of street time. The Border Patrol seems happy with it's Remington
Express 155 load. Compared to .45 JHPs and +P+ 9mm the standard.40
doesn't offer much to me. Sharp recoil impulse and not very accurate.
Not like a 97B with Gold Dots.

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/28889k434.jpg

cz75bdneos22
August 11, 2004, 06:52 AM
usage in my guns rank as follows( fav)...;
1. cz .40= comfy grip,and inexpensive round to shoot compared to rest
2.glock .45 gap= most expensive round, l, and it's a glock..
3.sigpro 2340 .357 sig= too much recoil, grip is not right for me, also an expensive round

takedown process fav
1.sigpro=piece of cake
2.cz 40=easy too
3.glock=tricky for me

looks fav
1.sig
2.cz 40
3.glock

price purchase
sig $418
glock $545
cz 40 <$300

valor1
August 11, 2004, 12:17 PM
Hi cz75bdneos22,
out of curiosity, how is the recoil of the CZ in .40 compared with the 9mm versions? Thanks.

rde
August 11, 2004, 12:49 PM
I have a KP94 as well. Good solid gun.

On my last purchase I faced the same question. My individual decision was to get a Springfield XD-357 Sig. I added the aftermarket 9mm conversion barrel. And..am about to order the 40 caliber barrel as well.

Ok, so I am a little indecisive. :)

Durus
August 11, 2004, 03:36 PM
I'm just a noob to this forum but...

The .357 sig is my favorite hangun caliber bar none. (Followed by the .45, the 10mm, .38 super, the .357 magnum, the .41 magnum and 9mm. in that order) The .40 isn't a bad round exactly I just don't see what need it fills. everything it brings to the table is surpassed by another caliber. Just my opinion of course...

P.S.
I would never buy a sig pro as I don't like them at all. Sig 226+229 are among the best handguns I have ever owned and both are swappable from .40 to .357sig with a simple barrel swap. On the other hand everyone should own a 1911ish .45 ;)

Black Snowman
August 11, 2004, 04:13 PM
I like the balence of power/size/weight of the .40, but the 9mm isn't a bad option and allows for cheap practice if you don't reload. 40 S&W isn't much more expensive but the price differance is there. The guns the .45 ACP come in I feel are too large for what you get. In that size gun I prefer the 10mm. But I'm not recoil sensative either.

If you can, find a range that rents or some buddies that have them and try them out for yourself. That's the only way you know what will work for you. The 9mm is sufficant for self defense and available in a wide variety of platforms. I don't think you can really go wrong sticking with it if you've had good luck so far. But don't let that keep you from branching out :)

Dak
August 11, 2004, 08:38 PM
Thanks for the replies.Went to the gun shop and priced some ammo and I think it is between the .45 and the .40( maybe getting a barrel for 357 later on) after seeing what the .357SIG rounds cost.Also lots of people have good things to say about the .45 but why does it seem like most law enforcment uses .40S&W and some .357sig.Is it a capacity issue?Thanks

wally
August 11, 2004, 09:02 PM
I used to think the .40 S&W had nothing to offer that a 185 gr .45ACP couldn't do until I reliazed that the 180gr .40 has the same sectional density as the 230gr .45 -- meaning at the same velocity it'll have the same penetration.

What the .40 S&W brings to the table is at least 100 fps more velocity in the same barrel length as the .45 making it great for sub-compact handguns where the .45 ACP can dip below 800 fps and may terefore have inadaquate penetration.

I love the Kahr PM 40 for its small size, relatively light weight, and high power.

I don't see any accuracy fall ofj between my 9mm CZ75 and the one I have in .40 S&W. Got the CZ75B in .40 first and liked the gun so much I also got one in 9mm for cheap shooting!

Does the .357 SIG have enough velocity to overcome the reduced sectional density of the 125gr bullet? And if so, do the bullets hold up to deliver the needed penetration at these velocities?

Ammo costs make 10mm and .357 SIG of only academic intrest to me.

--wally.

CZ52GUY
August 12, 2004, 03:32 PM
re: SigPro, I have it in 9mm...I had been considering the .357/.40 approach also. Now that I have it in 9', I'm glad I didn't get the 2340. Ergonomically, I enjoy it in 9'...not sure I would in .40...tends to be a little snappy...the comparatively short barrel in the SigPro amplifies that...it can be managed with practice.

re: .45ACP, any reason you aren't considering a full size 1911? I was amazed at how pleasant it is to shoot in the 5" platform.

I have several 9's, 3 .40's (all Glocks), and 2 .45's (a Mil-Spec & a P220ST). I'd say the .45's are becoming nearly as pleasant to shoot as the 9's...the .40's aren't too bad, but push comes to shove, .45 ACP is giving 9mm a run for it's money...in my range sessions. However, both my .45's have some beef to them which dampen the recoil. Your experience may vary.

I'd recommend at the very list, you try an "ergonomic evaluation" prior to any purchase. Autoloaders are like shoes...you need to try them on. If it fits you, great! If it doesn't, it's hard to get comfortable with it.

Good luck,

CZ52'

cratz2
August 12, 2004, 04:54 PM
First of all, welcome to The High Road. Here's my take in a nutshell...

Assuming a 4" or greater barrel (and assuning the gun is 100% reliable), I would trust the 9mm, 357 SIG, 40S&W, 45ACP and 10mm for self defense type uses. With the best loads in each, all five tend to be fairly decisive stoppers, or at least as decisive as a handgun can be expected to be. 9mm holds the most bullets, 45 holds the least and the other three are in between there. 357 SIG and 9mm are the same diameter so I personally don't believe the 357 will have a definitive edge assuming similar bullets and weights.

I can shoot the 9mm and the 45 the best... a bit of this has to do with platform, esp in 45ACP. 40 and 357 SIG have more muzzle flip that the 9mm (124 Gr Gold Dots) or 45ACP (standard pressure 230 Gr Golden Sabers or Ranger Ts) in my experience and I'd definately rather have a gun/load that sacrifices 5% stopping ability (in general, not just Marshall's numbers) that I can shoot quickly and effectively than a 'more powerful' gun I can't shoot as well. I don't have an issue with 40 or 357 SIG recoil in G23/SIG Pro/229 sized guns but I think that for someone recoil sensitive, the 9mm or 45 are better choices. Comparing the 40 to the 357 SIG, platform and loads will make the difference, but in general, they are very similar with the 357 SIG having a bit more muzzle flip in my experience.

Really, I trust 45 the most, followed by rest maybe 5 % down the scale. Whether this is based on reality, perspective or gun rag writings, I don't know... and I don't care. I need to trust what I carry... simple as that. If you can shoot it and you have faith in it, that's a major part of the battle.

MAClarkWA
August 12, 2004, 05:28 PM
Well let's see, currently my primary carry weapon is a Glock M22 .40s&w, it is a great gun, recoil is manageable, and most importantly I have complete faith in the gun itself. I also have an SA 1911 .45, it is by far the most accurate pistol I own, mostly due to the light recoil. If you frequent gun shows, ammo prices are pretty good, thus the .45 is still my favorite all purpose plinking round. I own a 10mm Kimber, and I firmly believe that a 200gr round at 1250fps and 700 ft.pds is superior to any .357sig round, and the cost of ammo is about the same where I live so Ill go with the 10 any day.
Just my thoughts though, could be wrong.

outofbattery
August 12, 2004, 05:54 PM
The .357 2340 is my favorite pistol : I can outshoot my P series Sigs with it all day long . Like every pistol , it's entirely a personal preference issue but the Pro is a very , very good gun and if it fits you , wholeheartedly recommend one . Since I'm a cheapskate , almost 1/2 of the rounds I fire from it are Speer Lawman 100gr frangibles ( many launched at plates from as far as I can at the range ) . They're a fairly light loading and the felt recoil and muzzle blast really isn't any more than an average .40 or decent 9mm from a same size/weight peice . A large portion of the rest is Sellier and Bellot 140gr < about $13 a box here , cheaper online ; I want to try some Canned Heat but haven't yet > and it is a bit snappier but I would not say that it is harsh or difficult to shoot . The felt pressure wave and muzzle blast take some getting used to if one is used to 9mm or .45 from full size pistols but I find it to be part of the fun in shooting the caliber . I use 115gr CorBons as my carry rounds . They've got a bit of heat behind them but I've found them to be kinder on the hand than 147gr Gold Dots I use in the 9000S and Kahr CCW's . I guess that's probably the best approximation ; if you don't mind shooting +P 9mm from a compact you shouldn't have a recoil issue with the .357S IMO .

Scoob
August 12, 2004, 06:56 PM
I've been shooting these three calibers alot lately. I've always prefered the .40, but the gun makes the difference as far as accuracy, recoil, ect..

I like .45, just don't like my current gun

My 357sig barrel may be sold this week...it's nice, just nothing special to me.

Dak
August 12, 2004, 08:36 PM
I think I am leaning toward a SigPro in .40 or a Glock 23.Maybe get a conversion barrel for .357sig later on.Still considering a 1911 in .45 but those seem to be alittle more than I want to spend right now.As for a full frame 1911 I had thought about it but I think I would like the Commander size better as I may use it as a carry gun once I get my permit.

CZ52GUY
August 12, 2004, 10:28 PM
If you are just getting into pistols, you may find the G23 a little simpler to use. No fussing with a manual safety, no double-action to single-action transition. Follow the four rules and engage target. A very simple platform to learn on. I've resisted the urge to get the .357 Sig' barrel, so far ;).

A manual safety is easily manipulated with practice (lots of dry-fire helps).

The double-action to single-action transitions really take some live-fire practice to get the true feel of it. Dry-fire can help you to get familiar with each, but the transition really requires some range time. Like anything, with practice it can be learned.

Good luck!

CZ52'

Dak
August 13, 2004, 12:53 AM
I've always liked sorta wanted a Glock before I started thinking about a 1911 style gun but was abit resistive because of the lack of a manual safety.I held a Glock 19 at the gun store today and it felt very nice.I liked the look of the sights as well.If the 23 feels like the 19 did in my hand and I can find one for around $500 or less that may be the way I go.I still would like a 1911ish .45 it just may have to wait a couple years.

cratz2
August 13, 2004, 02:08 AM
The 23 should feel pretty much EXACTLY like the 19... And in my opinion, the 19/23/32 sized Glock is the best balanced in my opinion and the size I would go for (and did go for) for CCW and in all honesty, I bought a 2340 about the same time as I bought my first G23. Myself, my wife and another adult male all favored the Glock for general shooting pleasure. Both were completely reliable, but I found the low bore axis of the Glock pleasant. My wife thought the SIG was more comfortable in her hand and/or generally though it 'felt better' than the Glock, but I had opposite findings. And I didn't really shoot either for accuracy.

7677
August 14, 2004, 01:15 AM
I'm currently required to carry a Glock 19 but if I was given the choice I would go back to my Glock 31/33 combo.

Dak
August 14, 2004, 04:32 PM
Well I ended up getting the Glock 23.I haven't got to shoot it yet so I don't know what the recoil is like but I think I will like it.Seems to fit my hand good and seems I can get the sigts on line faster than with the Ruger KP94 I have.Until I looked at the empty casings that came with the gun I didn't realize how much bigger the .40 is than the 9mm.Once I've shot it I'll post my impresions though all I have to compare to recoil wise is a 9mm and a .44 Magnum Ruger Blakhawk I shot a couple weeks back.

jc2
August 14, 2004, 06:16 PM
I didn't realize how much bigger the .40 is than the 9mm.
Four one hundreths on an inch!

mountainclmbr
August 14, 2004, 08:17 PM
I personally like the 45ACP, but there are none that are really small.

For a small CCW gun, the rounds that have a high pressure limit can give decent velocity/power in a short barrel length. These are the 9mm, 357 Sig and 40S&W.

A Kahr MK40 is my everyday carry gun. The 9mm and 357 Sig are also good rounds available in small guns. These small guns are not the best for accuracy, but the gun you have every day is better than the one locked in the safe if you are in a really bad situation.

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